Retrofit Byrd head in PM 8" jointer?

[Alan Heffernan]

I recently acquired a used Powermatic 8" PJ882 parallelogram jointer. The machine is in fine shape and I got it for a very attractive price.

I am seriously considering putting a Byrd head in it. I would also put new bearings in it while I am at it although the old ones seem fine. Yes, the head is expensive but the cost is not an issue. The jointer will likely remain in my family for many years.

Any insights on doing this job would be appreciated.

[Jeff Heath]

Is it a "want" or a "need." Do you work with heavily figured hardwoods, like a luthier would, where controlling tearout is essential to being able to cut your own thin stock?

Reason I ask is a byrd head will leave a scalloped surface that still requires cleanup by either sanding or planing before you proceed to the finish stage of any project. I say this because a lot of people are under the impression that a byrd head saves you that step, and it simply does not. It is still going to require smoothing plane (or sand paper, if that's your way) to get the scalloped surface cleaned up so you don't have a wavy looking surface when finish is applied.

In my opinion, you would be better off investing that extra money into a wider, longer jointer for surfacing wider stock than 8". My 16" jointer is frequently not wide enough for the wide lumber I work with.

Of course, none of that applies if all you work with is 8" or skinnier boards. On a wider jointer, you have the option to skew the board as you flatten over the cutterhead, and the skewing cut eliminates almost all the tearout I would get if taking the board "head on" straight.

Just a thought to consider. I am not a luthier, and don't cut my own highly figured veneer. Because of this, a byrd head is a waste of money in my shop. The 4 knife cutterhead on my 16" Yates American jointer does an excellent job with minimal tearout, especially if I skew a board. A little work with a smoothing plane, which is something I am going to do anyways, and any small tearout gets cleaned up, if any exists at all.

[John Kee]

Take a look at the cutterhead offered by Hermance Machine in PA both you decide. They have eliminated a lot of the issues Byrd brings to the table.

[Robert Engel]

I've had issues when rotating cutters.

You have to take them completely out and make sure the seat surface is dust free.

You also have to tighten them with a socket wrench, not the screwdriver they supply.

[Matt Day]

As I always say with these threads, it makes the most sense to do the planer first.

[Alan Heffernan]

As I always say with these threads, it makes the most sense to do the planer first.

Agree with you Matt. I already own a PM 20" with the Byrd.

I had always wanted a PM 8" parallelogram so I could tune it in to the "gnat's posterior". I have a dovetail bed 8" that is leaving.

[Chris Varas]

Take a look at the cutterhead offered by Hermance Machine in PA both you decide.
Are you talking about the http://helixhead.com/ unit that Hermance lists here... http://www.hermance.com/Industrial/HelixHead-Cutterheads


They have eliminated a lot of the issues Byrd brings to the table.
Can you elaborate on that comment? What are the "issues" with a Byrd head and how does the Helixhead address them? I'd research it myself by I'm not seeing much info out there for the HelixHead brand

Thank you

[Cary Falk]

The job is simple and straight forward. I put a Byrd in my ShopFox parallelogram jointer. If I were you I would take all the cutters out first and clean the head. Install the head and then put the cutters back in. My byrd gave a bad cut until I removed and cleaned all the cutters and head. You also won't break any of the cutters by bumping while you try to put the head in. The cutters are sharp so use gloves if you don't plan removing the cutters. Get a in-lb torque wrench from HF
Item #61277($20 or less if you have a coupon). I think the spec is 45-50 in/lbs.

[richard newman]

I have a Shelix in a newer style PM 6" jointer, and I love it. It can handle the most outrageously curly hard maple without a single tearout. The scallops it leaves are about .001 deep, easy to feel, but not really a problem for glue joints, and very easy to plane, scrape or sand out. Way easier than getting below tearout!

My first Shelix, 10 yrs ago, was a shaper head, was pretty disappointed. Smooth cutting, but scallops .005 deep, limited what I could use it for. Someone knowledgeable recently told me that Byrd did a better job with journal heads than bored heads (or at least used to). So I took a test indicator to the head, on the knives, and found it to be .005 TIR, which explained the deep valleys. My spindle tested about .0001 TIR, so I knew it was a problem with the head. I decided to remedy it, which was quite an undertaking.

I made a fixture to hold the head on my mill, indicated it in perfectly, then moved over .002". Bore it out oversize, then made bushings to bring it back to 1.250. Of course I discovered I went the wrong way and was now .010 TIR. Repeated the operation more carefully, and got much closer. Was still a smidge off, so I made very slightly eccentric bushings and got it dead nuts. Found 3 knives were still a bit low, shimmed them with paper, and now it's dead nuts. Not quite as nice a surface as the jointer, but good enuf for glue joints in hard maple. I would have been way ahead just buying a new head, but I couldn't resist trying it.

If it's ease of knife replacement one wants rather than ability to cut squirrelly grain stock, I'd go with a Terminus or Tersa head. Incredibly smooth surface, and knife changes in just a few minutes. I have a Terminus shaper head, I can touch up the knives easily with my surface grinder, and they cut easier (less force) than the Shelix.

[Joe Jensen]

I used to have an 8" PM60 jointer. Bought new in 1990. In around 2000 I replaced the stock cutterhead with a Terminus which is a Tersa clone. I am picky about having sharp knives that are dialed in. Setting the original knives was a pain. The Terminus solved that but I found they dulled pretty quickly. Easy to change but to change often was expensive. I replaced it around 2004 with a Byrd. Loved the Byrd so much that I dropped a ton of money putting one in my PM planer. The scallops are mostly something that you can see when held just right to the light. I personally think they are more of a sheen difference than a cut depth difference. I bet it's not possible to measure a thickness difference from the "high" spots to the "low" spots. Bet it's way less than anyone's calipers or dial indicators. A swipe of sandpaper and it disappears. With the straight knife cutter heads you get a different knife mark pattern. I suspect it's also not measurable but it's there. Does anyone go from a planer straight to finish? If you haven't held a board that's planed with one of these heads don't judge. I'd be happy to send a sample to anyone if they cover shipping.

[Darcy Warner]

No scalloping on my Hermance Helix heads.

The difference between a piece of quartered Sapele on a 3 knife porter and a helix in an old Sidney is night and day. No tear out at all with the hermance head. The 3 knife with new knives had a bunch, even skewed over the head.

And duh, a work piece off a jointer is never a finished surface, nor off the planer.

[richard newman]

How does the price of the Hermance heads compare to the Byrd?

[Alan Heffernan]

Darcy, Do you know if the inserts the same on the Hermance as the Byrd? Are they readily available?

Thanks

[Mark Carlson]

I did just so I wouldn't have to adjust knives ever again. Easy to do. Takes an hour or two. Lots of videos on how to do it. I dont see any scalloping on my jointer or my jointer/planer both with byrd heads.

[Alan Heffernan]

I did just so I wouldn't have to adjust knives ever again. Easy to do. Takes an hour or two. Lots of videos on how to do it. I dont see any scalloping on my jointer or my jointer/planer both with byrd heads.
Mark, I found the Wood Whisperer's youtube on it but are you familiar with others? BTW, he also has a good video on tuning up the tables on a 8" parallelgram Powermatic.

[Mark Carlson]

Alan, I did a google with this string "putting a byrd head into a jointer" and found the Wood Whisperers, a couple of others on youtube and a Fine Woodworking one. I did mine so long ago I just used written instructions from the byrd website. I bought my head with the bearings already installed on the head. It also came with a set of longer bolts that fit the head. The other thing I needed was some brass shims to put under the cutter head in the rear so it was level with the outfeed table across its width.

~mark

[Darcy Warner]

How does the price of the Hermance heads compare to the Byrd?

About 5% more for a custom head, but under 8 weeks to get vs. 11 months for Byrd.

[Darcy Warner]

Darcy, Do you know if the inserts the same on the Hermance as the Byrd? Are they readily available?

Thanks

Hermance uses a 15mm x15mm straight edge insert. The most common, readily available insert on the Market.

Byrd uses a 15x15 but they are slightly curved and more expensive.

[Ben Grefe]

I put a Byrd head into a grizzly 8 inch jointer from 1992, it’s amazing. I can’t compare it to other insert heads, but I’m very happy with the upgrade.

I though my bearings were were fine until I took the head off. Turns out one of them was entirely shot.

[John Kee]

Chris, the design virtually eliminates any scalloping, better insert registration with the head, more inserts for longer overall cutter life. Each head is balanced to completely eliminate vibration. Personally I always try to find the best quality for the money I'm willing to spend and my research indicated that Byrd just had too many not good enoughs. Also in talking with Hermance, when we were picking up 3 heads we found out, years ago they were installers of the Byrd until they had issues with quality. You can take that for what it's worth. Compare the 2 heads yourself and decide what works for you.

[Andrew Hughes]

I had a Bryd head in a 8 jointer. I sold it after the second set of inserts my desire to work exocits or dirty woods has passed. I have a jointer with straight knives but still have a planer with the Bryd head.
Alan you should keep the OEM head wrapped in a good coating of grease. Someday you might want to upgrade the jointer back to the straight knifes. If you could also find the time to measure the knife pockets for the hook angle and share the number here I'd appreciate it. It can be done with the head out of the machines. Just trace the outline out on a piece of paper it's much easier to measure. Sorry for the homework ,I will owe you a Daniel Webster Cigar.:)

[Alan Heffernan]

. . . . . . . If you could also find the time to measure the knife pockets for the hook angle and share the number here I'd appreciate it. It can be done with the head out of the machines. Just trace the outline out on a piece of paper it's much easier to measure. Sorry for the homework ,I will owe you a Daniel Webster Cigar.:)

No problem. When I pull it, I will post up the info here.

[Brian Branesky]

Mark, did you add the Byrd head to a pj882 that you put the brass shims in? I purchased a new to me Pj882 with a Byrd cutter and am having a difficult time getting the out feed table to match the cutter head along the cutter head so was thinking I may just have to shim one side. Thanks

[Andrew Hughes]

Brian are you sure the table are coplaner. I run into this several times first order of business tables match then cutter head.
Its easy to get lost in what should be a very simple machine.
Good Luck

[Allan Speers]

I've had issues when rotating cutters.

You have to take them completely out and make sure the seat surface is dust free.

You also have to tighten them with a socket wrench, not the screwdriver they supply.



Actually, you should tighten them with a TORQUE wrench, but otherwise, this advice is spot on. Dirt, or incorrect / uneven tension, are known causes of a wavy finish. Many users have reported eliminating this problem after a good cleaning and a proper torquing.

Also, of course, buy a quality head. IMO, Shelix is the only game in town.


And yeah, here come the jokes about "A proper torquing." :p

[Darcy Warner]

Actually, you should tighten them with a TORQUE wrench, but otherwise, this advice is spot on. Dirt, or incorrect / uneven tension, are known causes of a wavy finish. Many users have reported eliminating this problem after a good cleaning and a proper torquing.

Also, of course, buy a quality head. IMO, Shelix is the only game in town.


And yeah, here come the jokes about "A proper torquing." :p

Shelix is the cheapest, mass produced head.

The best head made is a Newman quiet cut, but one of those costs as much as a car, but with surface a million + feet of lumber before you had to replace inserts.

Gladu, hermance, global, and numerous others are making commercial quality heads.

[lee cox]

I did just so I wouldn't have to adjust knives ever again. Easy to do. Takes an hour or two. Lots of videos on how to do it. I dont see any scalloping on my jointer or my jointer/planer both with byrd heads.

I also hated adjusting jointer knives. I found an
Oneway Multi-gauge for adjusting jointer knives which makes it real easy and fast. To me the difference is like adjusting a table saw by eye vs using a dial indicator. Using the
Oneway Multi-gauge I can get within .002 when setting my blades. Setting the blades by hand I was never closer than .007 and that was my best job. With only .002 out my jointing is real smooth. There are very small knife lines but no scalloping or anything like that.

[Jeff Bartley]

Shelix is the cheapest, mass produced head.

The best head made is a Newman quiet cut, but one of those costs as much as a car, but with surface a million + feet of lumber before you had to replace inserts.

Gladu, hermance, global, and numerous others are making commercial quality heads.

Doesn't Hermance make a head for Newman? Or maybe they just put one of their heads in some of the newer Newmans?

Was here that you posted pictures of the Hermance head you installed in a big planer? What I got from that was the Hermance head was designed also to direct chips into collection chute.

I need to replace the bearings in my Newman 600 and have been trying to decide if I should replace the head too. When/if that happens it'll be from Hermance.

[Allan Speers]

Shelix is the cheapest, mass produced head.

The best head made is a Newman quiet cut, but one of those costs as much as a car, but with surface a million + feet of lumber before you had to replace inserts.

Gladu, hermance, global, and numerous others are making commercial quality heads.


Well, I just learned something new. :o Back when I was looking, Hermance didn't yet exist, or wasn't well known.

I wouldn't knock Shelix though, It's a fine head and much nicer than the straight-aligned Grizzly heads, and much better carbide quality than other heads coming from overseas. They also use top quality Japanese bearings. And if you use a torque wrench, they provide a consistently flat finish.

As for the number of cutters, for my PM100, Shelix has Hexihead beat by a mile: 80 knives, vs the Helihex's 60.

From what I can see, the biggest plus (possibly the ONLY plus) for a Hermance is that they are dynamically balanced. That probably doesn't even matter most of the time, but it eliminates the possiblity of a slightly off head, which Shelix does not. Their 8" head is only about $150 more, so it does seem like a good choice, but I like the extra number of heads on the SHelix, and the numbers of problems I've read about, with Shelix heads being out of balance, is exactly ZERO. It probably happens, but how often?

And a final word about marketing bull: Hermance doesn't really make "custom heads for every machine." I just talked to the guy, and when I mentioned my PM100, he said, "Oh yeah, we've done a few of those. I think we used the Hxxxx model." So they make a certain number of styles, then pick which one will fit a given machine.
- And so does Shelix. They can supply a head / bearings for virtually any vintage machine, if you ask.

Anyway, thanks. It's good to have options.

[Mark Carlson]

Brian, I have a PM54a which is a 6 in jointer with long beds. After intsalling my byrd head I used a dial indicator to measure the height of the cutter across the width and found that the head nearest the fence was low so I just lossened the bolts holding the cutterhead in place and slipped in a shim to raise it a couple of thousands. Note this jointer has dovetail ways so I'm limited in adjustments on the outfeed table. That was 7 years ago and I still haven't rotated the cutters although I'm thinking about it. I have a larger jointer that I use more often.


Mark, did you add the Byrd head to a pj882 that you put the brass shims in? I purchased a new to me Pj882 with a Byrd cutter and am having a difficult time getting the out feed table to match the cutter head along the cutter head so was thinking I may just have to shim one side. Thanks

[Rob Damon]

I have that jointer and put a Bryd head on it a few years ago.
Was pretty straight forward to do.

I bought the head directly from PM with the new bearings.

If I remember correctly I had to remove the guard and rabbit table. Then remove the two bolts holding the old cutter head. Installed the new cutter head, rabbit table and guard. Then adjusted the height of the outfeed table.

[Phil Gaudio]

I did this job with a Byrd head in a Delta DJ-20: no regrets at all. No more knife changing issues and performance that was amazing. Go for it: you won't be disappointed.



I recently acquired a used Powermatic 8" PJ882 parallelogram jointer. The machine is in fine shape and I got it for a very attractive price.

I am seriously considering putting a Byrd head in it. I would also put new bearings in it while I am at it although the old ones seem fine. Yes, the head is expensive but the cost is not an issue. The jointer will likely remain in my family for many years.

Any insights on doing this job would be appreciated.

[George Makra]

Shellix I own one of their heads on a Delta 6 X 13 thickness planner and I love it.
I have run thousands of feet of oak through that machine with out so much as a tear out.
Might you have to dress the wood after, perhaps but it seems to me that a thickness planer is supposed to get you to a desired thickness.
Final finishing is up to you.
Shellix does balance their heads, because when you do order a head from them they make it up for you and I know the bottle neck in manufacturing is at the balancing station.
Their bread and butter are the replacement head for Dewalt.
And there is no one out there that will put carbide heads on a rotating cylinder spinning any where between 5000-8000 RPM with out balancing..
Shellix is currently making my second head for a 12 inch New Berlin jointer which is probably between 80-100 years old.
Buy from who ever you feel comfortable with.
In the end they are all similar products that produce similar results.

[Mark Hockenberg]

I put a Byrd in my Delta DJ-15 jointer and love it. I changed the bearings at the same time and would recommend that.

Like others, I didn't want to deal with knife alignment. I've been happy with the performance and would make this change again.

[richard newman]

I don't find knife alignment to be a big deal, but I've been changing 16" - 24" knives for 50 years, so I guess I have a lot of practice. Where the Shelix head really excels for me is with highly figured material. I build banjos now and use some pretty fierce curly hard maple, and the Shelix head can handle that stuff without any tearout, even on quartered faces. Worth it to me just for that. Used to have to hand plane those surfaces to get them perfect, don't miss that at all, altho I still will just kiss them with a plane before gluing, old habits die hard...

[Brian Branesky]

Not sure on complaner. I positioned the outfeed table to match TDC of the cutterhead, it was right on next to the fence but as you go toward the operator side the cutterhed became low to the outfeed table, so thought that should be dealt with first? This is my first jointer, soooo, just trying to figure it out.

[richard newman]

Brian, you're absolutely right, that has to be dealt with. Don't know about the PJ882, but on my jointer I used shims under the bearing blocks. Should be able to get it within .001" with a good indicator. You'll want a good, large footprint base, like a surface gauge or a flat ground piece of steel w/ a mag base to get easily repeatable results. You need to be able to slide it around without jiggling or impact. It's a bit of trial and error, but well worth it.

Woodworking machines, especially consumer grade stuff, are just not built to very tight tolerances. A good assortment of shim stock is a necessity, along with a good test indicator and bases.