How I sharpen chisels and plane irons

[lowell holmes]

I don't want to tread on the other sharpening thread. There is more than one way.

See the following.

https://paulsellers.com/knowledge-base/sharpening/

Having learned hand tool woodworking in Paul Sellers classes at Homestead Heritage in Waco Texas, I use his techniques.

I use diamond hones and strop with raw hide leather on wood charged with green honing compound.
My edges are scalpel sharp.

[Jim Koepke]

The video on the page linked is a bit different than his convex bevel method.

It also doesn't get into his idea of only needing to go up to 250 grit on a plane blade.

Paul Sellers may be a great woodworker, but my confidence in his methods would be enhanced if he would stay with one method instead of confusing people with a variety show.

It comes down to finding a method that works and improving it as much as one can. It helps one in building their base of knowledge to be open to different methods. Knowledge is built by learning different ways or systems. Then one can put to use the bits that fit in with one's own equipment and methods.

For me, it is get sharp and get to work.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

It also doesn't get into his idea of only needing to go up to 250 grit on a plane blade.

IIRC the test he used to draw that conclusion was more along the lines of "can I take a continuous reasonably thin shaving" rather than "does this leave the best possible surface on the wood". The qualities of the shaving should be irrelevant except inasmuch as they help us understand why we are (or aren't) producing a specific result at the surface.

[John C Cox]

Jim, I think Paul shows many different ways because he does different things depending on the outcome he is after with the tools he is using for that task...

If you think about "Sharpening" as how you achieve adequate On-Wood performance given the type of work and the steel in the the tools at hand - then doing different things to different tools makes fine sense......

I think most people handle this intuitively - which is why we go round and round so much.. Their brain says "steeper bevel on this one" and their arms just do it without them having to consciously decide to shoot for a 40 degree bevel on the Aldi rather than 35 on the Stanley and 28 on the Two Cherries or whatever.. But if you ask them - they would tell you they sharpen all of them "The Same"...

[Robert Engel]

The convex bevel idea of Mr. Sellers is totally counterintuitive IMO.

For one, it increases the wedge effect and two, the edge cannot possible be as sharp.

Also, I'm of the opinion that improper/excessive stropping can actually dull an edge due to a dubbing effect.

So I also don't do the 30 strokes on a strop that he advocates.

Still in all, I love his approach he has influenced me to return more often to my first love - hand tools.

[Jim Koepke]

IIRC the test he used to draw that conclusion was more along the lines of "can I take a continuous reasonably thin shaving" rather than "does this leave the best possible surface on the wood". The qualities of the shaving should be irrelevant except inasmuch as they help us understand why we are (or aren't) producing a specific result at the surface.

My recollection is he was saying for finish work most will stop sanding after ~250 grit to apply a finish so it should be adequate for a plane blade.

Maybe if there was a disclaimer at the beginning of the "250 grit is all that is needed" video my mind reading abilities wouldn't have been put to such a difficult task.

Certainly a few others didn't get the message. In one sharpening thread someone argued they could get a blade fine for finishing with 80 grit sand paper. Maybe they were going for a wind worn rustic look.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

IIRC the test he used to draw that conclusion was more along the lines of "can I take a continuous reasonably thin shaving" rather than "does this leave the best possible surface on the wood". The qualities of the shaving should be irrelevant except inasmuch as they help us understand why we are (or aren't) producing a specific result at the surface.

Here's the blog post (https://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/) in question. It turns out that his standard *is* specified in terms of the wood's surface (good), but his standard is "sufficiently finished for sanding" (err, not good). His test pieces are all noticeable straight-grained, which makes it an easy test in terms of both materials and grading.

Why bother smoothing at all if you're just going to break out the abrasives anyway?

[John C Cox]

IIRC the test he used to draw that conclusion was more along the lines of "can I take a continuous reasonably thin shaving" rather than "does this leave the best possible surface on the wood". The qualities of the shaving should be irrelevant except inasmuch as they help us understand why we are (or aren't) producing a specific result at the surface.

I would put it like this:
"Does it adequately do the work I am expecting it to?"

For example - if I am cleaning off saw marks with my plane, I don't really care about the ultimate quality of the wood finish as long as it's "adequate" - aka minimal tearout... In this case, I would really like to take a nice thick shaving and be done in a pass or 3... That requires far less precise setup...

On the other hand - if I am edge jointing and need an invisible glue line - that takes a different sort of edge prep and plane setup... In this case - I am taking transparent shavings and chasing the high spots while candling the joint..

[Jim Koepke]

Here's the blog post (https://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/) in question. It turns out that his standard *is* specified in terms of the wood's surface (good), but his standard is "sufficiently finished for sanding" (err, not good). His test pieces are all noticeable straight-grained, which makes it an easy test in terms of both materials and grading.

Why bother smoothing at all if you're just going to break out the abrasives anyway?

+1 on that

My use of sand paper has diminished as my ability to sharpen has improved. Mostly now my sandpaper is used on metal work, the lathe or for rounding dowel ends.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Sellers techniques are pitiful. There is much better information on this forum.

[John C Cox]

Why bother smoothing at all if you're just going to break out the abrasives anyway?

Ha!

My guitar finishes have gotten exponentially better since I switched to sandpaper for the final levelling and sanding tasks..

It's worthwhile to get as close as you can - but getting the edge tools off the bench sooner has resulted in a lot less chips and damage to fix immediately prior to my finishes.. There's nothing quite like the feeling of seeing a well set and very sharp plane pull a chip right before you were about to wipe finish.. Groan...

[Graham Haydon]

Warren drops the bomb :).

I think Paul's info is ok and good for getting started. However, over time, he has gotten a bit too heavy and over the top. I had a quick read of his info on plane sharpening angles that was linked to and read that a "macro camber" sharpened at 41 degrees provides a strong edge. I think sadly the Myth Buster has become Myth Maker.

That said, he does does have a following who he helps enjoy woodworking. Plus, he was on a team of people who made a smart piece of furniture for the White House http://www.sustainlife.org/woodworking-craftmanship/ . Mind you, I think it helps to have Frank Strazza on your team :)

[Mike Baker 2]

I love Paul Sellers. He makes me want to work wood.
We can argue technique on sharpening, or anything else. Well, you guys can; I don't have the experience working wood to get into all that. I will find what does and does not work for me like everyone else did, by doing.
But I take from Mr. Sellers what I can grasp and use, and what seems logical to me, and discard the rest. But he is not the only source I use. I believe in looking at things from many different viewpoints and figuring out what I think works better for me. There are others I watch as well, and take from also.
I also tend to try things that aren't "written", make things my own, to some degree. If it works I keep it, if it don't, I toss it aside.
But his sheer enthusiasm for wood working, and his encouragement to new wood workers to just get in there and work wood, is infectious. And I believe it's very practical, in that I learn much more from my mistakes than from anything else.
MHO.

[Jim Koepke]

Warren drops the bomb :).

I think Paul's info is ok and good for getting started. However, over time, he has gotten a bit too heavy and over the top. I had a quick read of his info on plane sharpening angles that was linked to and read that a "macro camber" sharpened at 41 degrees provides a strong edge. I think sadly the Myth Buster has become Myth Maker.

That said, he does does have a following who he helps enjoy woodworking. Plus, he was on a team of people who made a smart piece of furniture for the White House http://www.sustainlife.org/woodworking-craftmanship/ . Mind you, I think it helps to have Frank Strazza on your team :)

Something seen on one of Paul Seller's videos gave me the impression he claimed the pieces for the White House were done all by himself.

A 41º bevel would make for a strong edge, but it might not work too well in a plane bladed bedded at 45º.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Warren, if you had ever seen Paul Sellers work, you might not have that opinion.

Also, Frank Strazza is possibly the most talented woodworkers I ever met.

I can tell you that if you ever have the opportunity to visit Homestead Heritage you should do so.

[Graham Haydon]

Jim, it would be a shame if all the people involved did not get a share of the credit. It was clearly a team effort.

Agreed on the honing angle, its near to 30deg for a reason, 3 degrees of clearance, no thanks.

[Patrick Chase]

Warren, if you had ever seen Paul Sellers work, you might not have that opinion.

Also, Frank Strazza is possibly the most talented woodworkers I ever met.

I can tell you that if you ever have the opportunity to visit Homestead Heritage you should do so.

Y'all just hold that thought while I get my popcorn, OK?

[Patrick Chase]

I would put it like this:
"Does it adequately do the work I am expecting it to?"

For example - if I am cleaning off saw marks with my plane, I don't really care about the ultimate quality of the wood finish as long as it's "adequate" - aka minimal tearout... In this case, I would really like to take a nice thick shaving and be done in a pass or 3... That requires far less precise setup...

Sure, but that's a bit tautological in the sense that it reduces Sellars' argument to: "Sharpening on 250# works on the subset of planing tasks for which 250# is adequate". His original claim was stronger than that, which is why it's wrong IMO.

I would add that he didn't consider edge wear, and there's an interesting interaction with the steel there (as I outlined in your other thread). You want a reasonably keen edge on homogeneous, fine-grained steels like HCS to avoid stress risers and accelerated wear.

[Stanley Covington]

Sellers techniques are pitiful. There is much better information on this forum.

Don't think I would go as far as calling Mr. Sellers' techniques pitiful, but they are entirely average and don't go beyond helping newbies get started. As Warren said, better information can be found on this forum if you sort through the barfights that are called sharpening threads at SMC.

[Patrick Chase]

A 41º bevel would make for a strong edge, but it might not work too well in a plane bladed bedded at 45º.



Agreed on the honing angle, its near to 30deg for a reason, 3 degrees of clearance, no thanks.

I don't suppose either of you own a bevel-up 'shave? I ask because those only have a few degrees of clearance and very "plane-like" cutting mechanics.

Seriously, as with his 250# sharpening recommendation it's true for some woods and some uses (and some users' preferences w.r.t. the amount of downforce needed to hold the plane in the cut) but not for all.

[Pat Barry]

The video on the page linked is a bit different than his convex bevel method.

It also doesn't get into his idea of only needing to go up to 250 grit on a plane blade.

Paul Sellers may be a great woodworker, but my confidence in his methods would be enhanced if he would stay with one method instead of confusing people with a variety show.

It comes down to finding a method that works and improving it as much as one can. It helps one in building their base of knowledge to be open to different methods. Knowledge is built by learning different ways or systems. Then one can put to use the bits that fit in with one's own equipment and methods.

For me, it is get sharp and get to work.

jtk
Maybe this is what Lowell is referring to. He goes much higher than 250 grit. He did comment that 2000 grit is plenty though, but he does go much beyond that..

https://paulsellers.com/2013/10/getting-edge-1/

[steven c newman]

I usually go to 2500 grit....that way I don't have to do so many strops....

Some of Paul's tips I like and use....some..not so much...I am getting his email blogs all the time, though.

Here would be something to do a youtube video on....Warren and Paul in the same shop, doing the same, exact project....."work benches at 10 feet?"

[Patrick Chase]

Maybe this is what Lowell is referring to. He goes much higher than 250 grit. He did comment that 2000 grit is plenty though, but he does go much beyond that..

https://paulsellers.com/2013/10/getting-edge-1/

2000# is entering the realm of reasonability, depending on what you strop on afterwards.

It's interesting that Paul doesn't link his "250#" blog entry from his sharpening knowledgebase page that Lowell linked. Maybe even he knows that he went too far with that?

[Mel Fulks]

Patrick, saw your comment on the difference between Thurry and coticule edges. Do they LOOK different under microscopes?

[Jim Koepke]

For example - if I am cleaning off saw marks with my plane, I don't really care about the ultimate quality of the wood finish as long as it's "adequate" - aka minimal tearout... In this case, I would really like to take a nice thick shaving and be done in a pass or 3... That requires far less precise setup...

Not sure what is meant by "precise setup." Today one of my tasks was to rip 8 small pieces for a project. After they were ripped they were set on the bench and one in the vise. A #5 was taken off the shelf and in the case of all but one on the third pass it was taking a full smooth shaving and the surface was as smooth as it needs to be. There wasn't any fiddling with the plane. My memory fails me at trying to remember the last time it was sharpened.

My blades are sharpened when they need to be sharpened. They are then returned to the plane and adjusted for lateral and put to use or put on the shelf depending on what is going on in the shop.

Sharpening a blade well doesn't really take any more time than doing a poor job at sharpening. A well sharpened blade will save time and effort when the blade meets the wood.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, saw your comment on the difference between Thurry and coticule edges. Do they LOOK different under microscopes?

I think that Ernest said that. I have no exposure to Thuringian stones.

[Stanley Covington]

2000# is entering the realm of reasonability, depending on what you strop on afterwards.

It's interesting that Paul doesn't link his "250#" blog entry from his sharpening knowledgebase page that Lowell linked. Maybe even he knows that he went too far with that?

If 2000 grit is the last stone used, the blade will cut just fine.... its just won't cut as smoothly, which matters sometimes, but not that often, depending on how a guy uses his planes and chisels.

The biggest downside, IMO, to ending at 2000 grit is that blades will dull quicker; Planes will be harder to push; And chisels harder to drive accurately. If 2 more minutes spent sharpening on a 6000 grit stone will yield 15 additional minutes of easier cutting and better precision, then it is worth the expended time and money IMO.

Everyone makes this decision for themselves. Unfortunate that too many people don't seem to understand or even consider the pros/cons first. It would be nice if Mr. Sellers would inform his thousands of adoring fans around the world. But then, why would he bother?

[Patrick Chase]

The biggest downside, IMO, to ending at 2000 grit is that blades will dull quicker; Planes will be harder to push; And chisels harder to drive accurately. If 2 more minutes spent sharpening on a 6000 grit stone will yield 15 additional minutes of easier cutting and better precision, then it is worth the expended time and money IMO.

This is steel-dependent. "Chunky" steels like non-PM D2 or HSS have carbides of similar size to a 2000# scratch, so their life won't be sensitive to honing beyond that point. They have to be that rough before their wear life advantages even kick in, because otherwise the carbides don't really shoulder the burden of cutting. As I've said in other threads, carbides in steels are a little like teeth in a circular saw. The steel around them has to be worn away a bit before they stick out enough to cut. The coarser the steel, the more wear is required.

For a very fine-grained steel like the ones you deal with (and in) or some PM alloys it's completely different. With those coarse scratches create locally increased cutting forces, which create stress concentrations, which lead to more wear, etc.

[Stanley Covington]

This is steel-dependent. "Chunky" steels like non-PM D2 or HSS have carbides of similar size to a 2000# scratch, so their life won't be sensitive to honing beyond that point. They have to be that rough before their wear life advantages even kick in, because otherwise the carbides don't really shoulder the burden of cutting. As I've said in other threads, carbides in steels are a little like teeth in a circular saw. The steel around them has to be worn away a bit before they stick out enough to cut. The coarser the steel, the more wear is required.

For a very fine-grained steel like the ones you deal with (and in) or some PM alloys it's completely different. With those coarse scratches create locally increased cutting forces, which create stress concentrations, which lead to more wear, etc.

I take your point Patrick, but how many people use HSS or D2 plane blades or chisel blades? I have a HSS plane for tropical hardwoods, and D2-equivalent chisels specifically for cutting tropical hardwoods and plywood, and their performance bears out what you say. But how many people on the forum have such strange (and costly) tools?

[Patrick Chase]

I take your point Patrick, but how many people use HSS or D2 plane blades or chisel blades? I have a HSS plane for tropical hardwoods, and D2-equivalent chisels specifically for cutting tropical hardwoods and plywood, and their performance bears out what you say. But how many people on the forum have such strange (and costly) tools?

A fair number of people have the Ray Iles mortise chisels. A *lot* of people have A2, which is intermediate between HCS and D2/HSS. But yeah, most peoples' blades could do with more than 2000# for optimal edge life.

[Stewie Simpson]

Sellers techniques are pitiful. There is much better information on this forum.

Warren; you and I both know that any sharpening thread that's asking for advise on how to improve your sharpening technique is going to get hit with at least 20 different answers. That's then followed up by which type of steel you should be using, that then flows on to who you should be purchasing those plane irons and chisels from, and then if your really lucky you receive the full run down on the specific metallurgy of each steel. There is a special place for refining your sharpening technique, its not on an open forum, its in the workshop taking the time to practice those skills.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Whether or not he explained it this way, a reasonable interpretation of Sellers' 250 grit thing is that it demonstrates the importance of correct sharpening geometry (and by that I just mean the very basic concept of sharpening all the way to the edge and at a reasonable angle, managing the burr, etc., and not so much his rounded bevels) versus fineness. You would have to put yourself in the shoes of a total newbie, who is struggling with the most basic aspects of sharpening. They will often think that the reason their edges suck must be because their stone isn't fine enough, since they see lots of talk about ultra-fine stones on forums and YouTube. So they go out and spend lots of hours researching stones that they should be spending in the shop with whatever stone they currently have. Knife nuts are particularly bad about this. A person with experience can get a better edge off of a coarse or medium stone than the aforementioned newbie could with a shapton 30k, until they understand what they are doing.

I think a lot of Sellers' more controversial teachings are intended to be along these lines- i.e. newbies should get to work and build skills rather than spending money on gadgetry and fancy tools. Then he muddles his meaning with purple prose and provocative titles (provocative to woodworkers, anyways).

I don't like the convex bevels much, either. I think there's no reason you couldn't get a fine edge with that technique, so long as you maintain the correct angle at the apex of your sharpening stroke. But that's actually pretty hard to do, and seems like the least promising way to teach a beginner freehand sharpening. But at least he advocates freehand sharpening, so there's that.

[brian zawatsky]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Sellers advocates mediocrity. When I first took interest in handtool woodworking I was directed to his videos, and even as a relative noob found a lot of his shtick to be contradictory and confusing, not to mention blatant BS.

I tried out his convex bevel nonsense, and couldn't understand why I couldn't get my plane to cut consistently. Turns out the 30 degree flat bevel I started with ended up nearer to 40 degrees once rounded and ate up all the clearance. Not to mention that a flat bevel makes a WAY sharper edge than a convex one.
In addition, like Stan mentioned, finishing a chisel on a 6000 or 8000 grit stone eliminates the need to strop and keeps from dubbing the edges. 30 strokes on a strop are ok i guess when you're not concerned with keeping the bevel flat & corners sharp.

Here's a good one - anyone seen the video of his where he's "dressing up" a cheapo saw handle and the finishing touch is to slather on some shellac....right over the saw nuts & with the handle attached to the saw plate? Dude got shellac all over the blade! Lol! That marked the end of my foray into Paul Sellers videos. Needless to say I didn't bother to click on the link in the original post in this thread, I've already seen enough.

[steven c newman]

Just another normal sharpening thread.....buttered, or non-buttered popcorn?

While you all are sitting around arguing over sharpening stuff, I be in the shop,,USING my sharp tools....c-ya....

[Derek Cohen]

I tried out his convex bevel nonsense, and couldn't understand why I couldn't get my plane to cut consistently. Turns out the 30 degree flat bevel I started with ended up nearer to 40 degrees once rounded and ate up all the clearance. Not to mention that a flat bevel makes a WAY sharper edge than a convex one.

There is nothing actually "wrong" with a convex bevel. If done correctly, it will offer as good an edge as any. Paul Sellers makes it look straight forward, which it is, but his experience and practice disguises the training of hand memory that is vital for it to work successfully.

30 degrees is 30 degrees no maker whether the bevel is flat, hollow, with a secondary, or rounded. Keeping it 30 degrees is the issue.

I use the rounded bevel on my mortice chisels as they use a 35 degree secondary bevel on a 20 degree primary bevel, and a rounded bevel is easier to freehand. I use a simple jig to aid in not going above this angle ...

https://s19.postimg.org/wrddcrr77/813b297c-6daf-4708-baad-279e19ce4d58_zpshjiiywbe.jpg

It is evident that PS can do this without an aid. Sometimes I am not sure .. to be sure .. some of his angles look closer to 40 degrees. I certainly do not trust keeping to the desired angle without an aid, and I have been freehand sharpening chisel and plane blades long enough to feel confident with hollow grinds.

My experience tells me that there is also a fine line between honing to the edge (using his method) .. and dubbing it, or even missing it altogether. By contrast, working on a hollow grind is akin to using a honing guide in that there is much more certainty in the process.

The value of the rounded edge lies in not needing (or rarely needing) to grind. For those starting out, there are fewer demands made in terms of owning or access to grinding equipment. The downside is that those starting out lack the hand memory to be certain of accurate angles for their edges.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[brian zawatsky]

I can see using a rounded bevel on a mortise chisel, but would you intentionally do that on a paring chisel or plane iron? I think not.

The issue I take with the convex bevel thing is that - especially for a new woodworker - it is too easy to raise the angle a little bit to get to the edge when you've already been assured that a rounded bevel is the goal. If the bevel is kept flat on the stone, you know you are done when you have ground to a wire edge. Period. No guess work, no short cuts. I would think that this approach would be favorable because it provides a tactile cue to when to move on to the next grit stone.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I think a lot of Sellers' more controversial teachings are intended to be along these lines- i.e. newbies should get to work and build skills rather than spending money on gadgetry and fancy tools.

I don't know if that is what Sellers intends or not, but that is a pretty good message. The advice to newcomers really should be focused on what they have and helping them get it to work (if it is adequate), rather then encouraging them to give up on a perfectly adequate set of stones and go buy something else. I assume people around here are trying to be helpful and not shills, but sometimes I think a stranger could be forgiven if he drew the opposite conclusion.

I have not watched an enormous amount of Sellers videos (or anyone's), but when I was trying to figure out how to flatten and square lumber, I found his videos to be helpful. He was the only one I found who actually flattened and squared a reasonable sized board. All the others I found had so many edits that it amounted to a description of what they were going to do and then "presto-chango" they cut to the end of the process and show you a flat and square board.


If you have no skills, someone who can help you get mediocre skills is of value. I know half the forum could do it faster, better, and could use a micrometer and an electron microscope to prove it, I'm just saying to someone trying to figure out the very basics some of his stuff can be quite helpful. And if I ended my life with mediocre woodworking skills, I think I could rest easy. It is a hobby for me after all, not what pays the grocery bill.

[lowell holmes]

Nicholas, IMO, you nailed it right on the head.

[George Wall]

As a newbie who does subscribe to Sellers' videos, I want to point out that his instruction is most helpful. And his videos are top notch both in production quality and in the ability to instruct the viewer.

I think too much is being made of his sharpening methods. He normally uses a course, fine, and extra-fine diamond stone, followed by stropping. There is one post where he mentions finishing at 250 grit, but that was an illustration for someone just starting out that may not have the funds to afford stones or plates right away. But that's not normally what he recommends. As for stropping, I realize that's sometimes controversial, but lots of woodworkers have been stropping for decades without problem, so I don't quite understand why he's being criticized for it; after all, a leather strop and compound is a lot cheaper than a Shapton stone for a beginner.

Sellers prefers sharpening free hand, but also mentions in several posts that he has honing guides at the school for those that prefer them. I myself am transitioning from the guide to freehand on my chisels, so I am finding his technique helpful. Finally, Sellers himself mentions that if you find a sharpening technique that works for you, you should by all means stick with it. I certainly don't slavishly follow everything he says, nor does he really expect people to do so.

EDIT: I forgot to add: in some of his project videos, Sellers does mention he can get a much smoother surface using his smoother plane than sandpaper. He definitely does not normally use sandpaper unless it's to clean up the inner corner of some surfaces or when sanding a coat of finish.

[Jim Koepke]

As a newbie who does subscribe to Sellers' videos, I want to point out that his instruction is most helpful. And his videos are top notch both in production quality and in the ability to instruct the viewer.

My dismissal of Mr. Sellers may have to do with only seeing his videos that have left me with the impression that he is a bit pretentious. One of his videos on dovetailing seemed he was interested more in putting on a display of his smugness and not tips on how one could improve their dovetails.

Three of the videos linked in posts on Sellers left me wondering what people saw in him:

One was the aforementioned dovetail video. The second was on his method of making a convex bevel. The third was on could get plenty sharp with 250 grit sandpaper.

As they say in baseball, three strikes and you are out. To me it seemed there wasn't going to be much to learn from Mr. Sellers.

Later in a discusion on hand planes someone mentioned that according to Paul Sellers one could do all their planing work with just a #4. Yes, with great care, one could likely flatten, smooth and joint the edges of a large piece of rough lumber using only a #4 hand plane. It might take them the better part of a week instead of just an afternoon.

Steve Ramsey of Wood Working for Mere Mortals doesn't use much in the way of hand tools, but he is much more dedicated to helping folks getting started in woodworking without creating confusion. Many of his ideas are easy to convert to hand tool projects.

https://woodworking.formeremortals.net/

Charles Neil might put you to sleep with his round about way of getting through a project, but he does get through with explanations on how to pick out lumber, construction fir, from the big box stores. One of my regular projects for sell at the farmers market came from this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4fXbRNqqY

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?214308&styleid=3

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My dismissal of Mr. Sellers may have to do with only seeing his videos that have left me with the impression that he is a bit pretentious. One of his videos on dovetailing seemed he was interested more in putting on a display of his smugness and not tips on how one could improve their dovetails.

Did he mention that he made some furniture that went to the White House? I think he doesn't mention that enough in his videos...

[steven c newman]

Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

[Stanley Covington]

Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

Your definition of what Mr. Sellers does and why he does it are absolutely correct. I don't think anyone here has criticized his motives. Some have criticized his methods. But this is a forum where people share opinions. Mr. Sellers has made himself a public figure, and creates cash income selling his opinion (and methods) in the form of video subscriptions etc.. People see him as a great teacher and drag him and his methods into these threads. It is pointless to tell people here to not share their opinions on such a man and his methods.

Personally, I have no problems with what he does or how he does it. He teaches good things in order to sell a product to an appreciative audience. But as far as sharpening goes, he does not teach anything beyond very basic techniques. This is indisputable.

Some of the guys on this forum are at the basic level. Some of those are there because they are just starting. Others want to improve, but don't have anyone to show them more advanced techniques. Certainly they won't learn it from Mr. Sellers. Others have been doing woodworking a long time, and are happy with the mediocre results they are getting. There is nothing wrong with any of these 3 types. But there are some who have been doing this long enough to learn/develop advanced techniques that produce superior cutting edges in a superior manner. They look at Mr. Sellers' classes online and are unimpressed with a man that has made a living for many years as a teacher of mediocre techniques, and does not seem interested in improving his techniques, or teaching better techniques. This is natural.

We on this forum have no obligation to handle Mr. Sellers with kid gloves in our posts. We have no obligation to treat him as a great teacher, or honor him for his contributions to the worldwide fraternity of woodworking. He intentionally made himself a public figure and makes money as one. Please don't try to muzzle those on this forum who can do better than Mr. Sellers, and try to share those methods with others here. Sure, there is a lot of crap here, but there are occasionally jewels hidden inside the cowpies.

[Jim Koepke]

Did he mention that he made some furniture that went to the White House? I think he doesn't mention that enough in his videos...

It seems he likes to take full credit for that in the few videos of my watching. Yet it seems in reality it was an effort by many people.


Too many here lose track of the fact that THEY are a bit more "advanced" that the target audience Sellers is talking to. He is trying to get new bodies to at least try this kraft....without telling they need to go out and BUY a brand new, $10K shop. He is not teaching "production shop" stuff...merely getting people to at least "dip their toes into the water" without looking down at their efforts to LEARN. Maybe we should try that around here? Instead of faulting someone's sharpening skills, or selection of tools....

If he is catering to those just starting in the craft he is likely to frustrate some who try his convex bevel method and find they have too much curve and not enough relief angle. Though since they are new at the craft they will not be able to figure out what is causing their problem.

Maybe someone will think that since he has made stuff for the White House finishing off a plane blade with 250 grit paper is fine and they must be doing something wrong if it isn't working on their blades.

Often my time is spent watching videos of others in hopes of picking up a fragment of enlightening information. That hasn't happened for me with any of the videos Mr. Sellers has produced. Roy Underhill is not only more entertaining, he has also imparted new ideas and/or methods to my work. Likewise with Steven Ramsey, and others like the English Woodworker.

Some of my biggest frustrations during my working days were from a field trainer "having fun" while teaching someone else how to do the work with these kinds of tricks or shortcuts involved. In the long run it made more work for everyone else having to fix the mess left by the person who was ill trained.

Maybe it is my loss that the only Paul Sellers' videos coming to my attention seemed to be egregiously outside of proper or thoughtful woodworking.

jtk

[steven c newman]

My start was from BEFORE Norm Abrams even started with the This Old House series, let alone New Yankee....how many here learned their skill via Norm? Rookies have to start somewhere...they weren't born expert woodworkers. Maybe as they learn this kraft, they can decide FOR THEMSELVES what to keep and what to toss away....

back when...if the shop teacher didn't have an answer, one of my Uncles did....

[Prashun Patel]

Keep it civil, please.

[George Wall]

My dismissal of Mr. Sellers may have to do with only seeing his videos that have left me with the impression that he is a bit pretentious. One of his videos on dovetailing seemed he was interested more in putting on a display of his smugness and not tips on how one could improve their dovetails.

Three of the videos linked in posts on Sellers left me wondering what people saw in him:

One was the aforementioned dovetail video. The second was on his method of making a convex bevel. The third was on could get plenty sharp with 250 grit sandpaper.

As they say in baseball, three strikes and you are out. To me it seemed there wasn't going to be much to learn from Mr. Sellers.

Later in a discusion on hand planes someone mentioned that according to Paul Sellers one could do all their planing work with just a #4. Yes, with great care, one could likely flatten, smooth and joint the edges of a large piece of rough lumber using only a #4 hand plane. It might take them the better part of a week instead of just an afternoon.


jtk
Fair enough. You viewed 3 of his free videos and found them lacking. I just wanted to address a couple of potential misconceptions about Sellers and what he was trying to do in the above videos.

First, I don't think he ever says to ignore bevel angles altogether. For plane irons, which typically come with a 25* bevel, he feels that there's plenty of room for error that most folks will not run into relief angle issues if they attempt to sharpen freehand. He mentions in his blog posts that beginners can certainly attempt to use guides and/or measure angles until they get comfortable with their muscle memory.

I haven't watched his dovetail video in a long time, so I may be misremembering. But I know from time to time he mentions techniques that he was taught, or methods he's used for many years while teaching, and does perhaps come across as hype-ing them up. All teachers have their quirks, so I guess I'm just more willing to let that go, but that will obviously vary among individuals.

As for the 250 grit, that was a demonstration of what is possible if all you have available to you is sandpaper. He really doesn't recommend stopping at 250 grit sandpaper as the best sharpening option or even one students should use. As mentioned, he recommends the use of 3 diamond stones (course, fine, x-fine) along with a strop. And, if using sandpaper, he does suggest using finer grits. I think he's just making a point that to get started from scratch and with limited funds, there are inexpensive methods available, even if they are not optimal.

Which brings me to the #4 plane, another hot topic. He recommends the #4 as a starting point because they are readily available on the used market for relatively little money, even good ones. Of course, another option is a brand new #4 from Lee Valley (currently $219) or even Woodcraft ($149), both of which are really good value for the money. I realize the topic of the first plane for beginners is potentially a hot one, which means there is probably no real "right" answer. But starting with a #4 is definitely not the "wrong" answer, especially if one is using S4S stock (which Sellers recommends for folks just starting out). Finally, Sellers does recommend using a longer plane (a #5 or #5 1/2) for edge jointing and flattening larger surfaces. In some videos, I've heard him mention using a power planer for stock prep, and in others I've even seen him use (gasp!!) a band saw and a bench grinder.

To address some other comments, I agree 100% that Sellers is mostly targeting beginner/novice/intermediate level with his videos, and that some folks will progress to the point where they feel they would benefit from more advanced instruction. I'll just add that the membership site includes a gallery of student and member made pieces, and some of them are the work of fine craftspeople whose skills clearly go beyond the intermediate (or even mediocre ;)) level.

I have no issue with folks criticizing his methods or his videos, and he is certainly not beyond reproach. I certainly am not advocating that criticism of Sellers be stifled. I was just trying to perhaps clarify a couple of the criticisms so that folks unfamiliar with his work do not get the wrong impression.

[Pat Barry]

Paul Sellers is a man of demonstrated skill and knowledge. The FACT that he has a piece of woodwork that is / was in the White House is admirable, not something to be sniped at, particularly with snide commentary. We would all be further ahead if our own experts were to demonstrate their own craftsmanship with frequency. Maybe this post won't be deleted.

[Jim Koepke]

George, Thank you for your well thought and worded response.

Some people are easier to warm up to than others. Educators may present themselves in ways that many folks admire, yet some folks do not.

It is one of the many aspects of life with which we learn to live, or not.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

It seems he likes to take full credit for that in the few videos of my watching. Yet it seems in reality it was an effort by many people.

Indeed, my comment was firmly tongue-in-cheek.

I think that it's commendable to present "deep" skills like woodworking in a way that makes them accessible to people starting out. Roy Underhill does a great job as do several others, while Bob Ross is a classic example from another field.

I do have problems with Paul Sellars' approach in particular. Polemics like the "250 grit is enough" or "2 degrees is enough clearance" articles don't really help people starting out, because while the general points they make have validity (many tools/applications don't need 8000#, and most woods don't need 12+ deg of clearance), they're so exaggerated as to potentially confuse readers into doing things that take them backwards in their progression. He could have (and others have) made those same points in a more constructive and better contextualized way while still staying within what his readership can understand, but he didn't. Roy Underhill doesn't tell people that what he's demonstrating is "all you need", and Bob Ross never claimed that his splotches were the ne plus ultra of tree, cloud, or sheep depiction.

On a more nit-picky note, the ceaseless self-promotion is incredibly off-putting. The continuous references to "his" White House pieces are but the most obvious example, particularly when one considers that they were a group effort. I would be fine with that sort of thing from, say, George Wilson because of his track record of recognized work at an elite level, but Sellars just isn't there.

[Patrick Chase]

Which brings me to the #4 plane, another hot topic.

That's probably the least objectionable thing discussed in this thread. He is absolutely right that you can (and some people do) execute absolutely top-notch work with nothing but a 4. Accurately jointing with a 4 might take more skill than most of his viewers have, but it's very doable. Again my own concern is not so much with what he says (most of his points have validity) but with his tendency to "turn everything to 11" and then throw in some self-promotion for good measure.

Another random example: Instead of saying "don't leave rags full of polymerizing oil wadded up" he comes up with this (https://paulsellers.com/2012/10/3-in-1-yes-boiled-or-raw-linseed-oil-no/) piece of local-tv-news-worthy deadly-hazard-under-your-sink fear mongering. BTW, I looked up the fire marshall's report for the cabin fire he cited in the comments, and it's not quite what he claims. IIRC the report described it as a "heap" of soaked rags.



He recommends the #4 as a starting point because they are readily available on the used market for relatively little money, even good ones. Of course, another option is a brand new #4 from Lee Valley (currently $219) or even Woodcraft ($149), both of which are really good value for the money.

Almost everybody recommends a 4 or 5 as a starting point (I would go with the 5 because I think that ease of jointing larger work is more valuable than ease of smoothing into local depressions, but it's a subtle difference that probably wouldn't matter to a beginner). What differentiates Paul and causes controversy is again the stridency and exaggeration with which he does it. BTW the "classic" non-custom Veritas at $220 is a terrific bargain IMO.

[steven c newman]

No less strident than someone else always claiming how they designed tools for a certain brand of tools...and then every other reply to any post is a "sales pitch" for that company.....

BTW, my"go-to" Stanley No. 4 is a type 10. Works like new, never a problem with chatter. Has the OEM iron and chipbreaker......picked the plane at a "yard sale" for $8.

I use those Aldi chisels all the time. Took maybe an afternoon to get a 4 pc set tuned and ready to use.

My first planes? A stanley blue & chrome No.110..and a Great Neck No.4.....Then picked a very rusty Union No. 4, and LEARNED how to rehab it into something usable.
And this was decades before Sellers was in vogue....and a decade before Abram's shop show started...

Perhaps patrick should apply the exact same scrutiny to some of the "experts" on this site?

[Mike Baker 2]

I don't get this "constant reference to building furniture for the White House." I've watched every video he has on Youtube at least twice, because you can't absorb everything in one go, and "might" have heard him mention it once, in passing. If you can show me three of his videos that harp on that subject, I'll buy into the "constant reference" theme. Or even three separate blog posts. But I doubt you can. Sorry, but that line is treading close to what is left on the bottom of a stall.
No offense intended, but it was mentioned that Paul Sellers fans are trying to stifle others' view points. as a new guy here, who has no dog in this race(I do like Sellers and find him an inspiration, but I do not cowtow to his techniques, nor do I consider him a final authority on anything. I like to get my "news" from various sources) I see exactly the opposite. Those that mention Sellers in a positive light get very many snide and condescending remarks and replies from SOME here. Not all, but there is enough so that a new person to this place can see this so thick that you could cut it with a knife. And it is frankly the reason I have not spoken until now; I dislike being a target.
And quite frankly, a lot of it smacks of childishness.
I mean no offense, sincerely, I am simply stating what I see from my viewpoint, but I would be very embarrassed to act the way some of you are acting on this subject, and I can't help but think about new people coming into this forum and seeing it. Maybe some of you don't care if the forum grows or not; maybe you're happy to have your little place on the internet, and no new people or alternate viewpoints is a good thing for you.
I don't know. But if one were to read back through this thread with an open mind, I really believe some of us would be ashamed how we or others have reacted.
If you want to slam me, slam me. I've got a thick skin.
I have also said my piece, and doubt it will make any difference. I don't intend to get into a big internet argument RE Paul Sellers or anything else; it's a waste of my time and only fires up my ulcers. I just needed to express this.

[Patrick Chase]

I don't get this "constant reference to building furniture for the White House." I've watched every video he has on Youtube at least twice, because you can't absorb everything in one go, and "might" have heard him mention it once, in passing. If you can show me three of his videos that harp on that subject, I'll buy into the "constant reference" theme.

Do a search for:

"white house" "Paul Sellers' Blog" site:paulsellers.com

A common search engine finds 7 pages of 10 results each, and I see 10 different blog posts on the first page alone. A few of the references are in the comments to his blog posts rather than the posts themselves in later pages (though in many cases he's the commenter that references it). That's a mind-boggling level of single-topic self-promotion IMO.

I admit to not watching many of his videos (or many WWing videos at all). I like to absorb information at a different rate than they usually present it.

[steven c newman]

Really? and why does that even matter in a sharpening thread...if that is all you can contribute......

[Patrick Chase]

Really? and why does that even matter in a sharpening thread...if that is all you can contribute......

I was directly responding to somebody else's question. Nothing for you to see (or remark upon) here.

[steven c newman]

Yet you are fixated on just that one point? 10 videos out of how many he has produced? Rather puny, isn't it?

maybe broaden the horizons a bit...and see a whole new world out there? Too narrow of a view may lead to narrow-mindedness......and then the mind becomes closed...