Euroblock shaper tooling

[Patrick Kane]

I know the subject has been hashed out quite a bit with several, "i have a new shaper, what cutters should i buy?" threads, but I have more specific questions concerning euroblocks. From all the threads ive read, that seems like the way to go for me and many hobbyists; However, what i dont know from reading those threads is what heads to buy and from what manufacturers. They all LOOK to be the same exact design, but some people say the CMT heads are garbage, or dont buy aluminum etc. It looks like woodweb and sawmill had positive things to say about Whitehill.

I have a used Felder KF700 saw/shaper that i bought in october. For the interim, ive been using the high speed router spindle. I also have a 1.25" spindle for it. It has a 4.8hp motor and the ability to tilt back to 45°. So far i dont have a feeder, but im combing the used market and might have a 3 wheel grizzly nearby. If that falls through, i think ill just spend $1000-1200 on a new 3 wheel from grizzly, powermatic, or comatic dc30.

Originally, i was going to buy these steel insert heads
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/tls/d/shaper-insert-rail-stile-set/6449825267.html

But, reading more about insert tooling, it seems like HSS will give me more than enough edge life for my purposes, and the craigslist heads are expensive for new profiles. Looks like $100+ per head for new carbide inserts. Im also unsure about the flexibility of profiles with those heads. Perhaps this is still a good option for handling all my frame and panel needs?

This seems like a pretty standard euroblock to pick up
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=20

But should i get it in steel or alloy? Also, the diameter and height vary quite a bit, not sure which is best. Assuming this will be my cope/stick head, should i get two? Can you use these heads as effective rebate heads, or should i get this combo head
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=60

Finally, what panel raiser is preferred? I see whitehill offers two different diameters.
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=35


Im not going to buy this all at once, but i would like to start using the shaper as a shaper instead of a glorified router table. i think right off the bat, i want one of the euroblock heads to do rebates, chamfers, and profiles. I also want a byrd head for template work. 80% of my router table work was templating. I was thinking the 3" diameter 4" tall byrd head with matching rub bearing would do nicely. From there i will let the project dictate what to buy, but i see myself doing an exterior entrance door for my parents and standard cabinet door stuff for vanities in the next year or so.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Patrick, if you're going to use the Euroblock for some hand fed applications you'll want a MAN rated head with chip limiters for decreased risk of kickback.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/Universal-Safety-Cutterhead.html

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Universal-Profile-Cutter-Heads/SET-Offer-Universal-Safety-Cutter-Head-oxid.html

I would also suggest a carbide rebate head to start out, I use one like this for rebates, template copying and chamfering. I use the Felder ring set with mine.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/en-US/en-US/Moulding/Moulding-tooling/Rebate-cutters/High-Performance-Rebate-Cutter-Head-RB-HW.html

regards, Rod.

[Jared Sankovich]

I've been happy with the amana 120mm steel head. Though I need to pick up a 88 to 100mm version to run small moulding (it's hard to get feeder wheels close enough to work when you have a 7"+ dia cutting circle and the moulding blank is 3/8" square.

I haven't seen a decent selection of cope and stick pin knives, so you may want to look into an additional option.

As Rod mentioned you need a rebate head, ideally with a shear angle. I like the Amana 61484 120x60 head. It's cheap and works well.

379916
379918

[James Zhu]

Dimar multi profile cutter with limiters is nice, the 40mm profile knife is cheaper than Felder's, and Dimar has all the profiles Felder has and more. And I think for the same profile, Dimar and Felder's knives are identical.

http://dimar-canada.com/products.php?m=56&idp=44

I bought cutter and knives from https://onlinesupply.ca, you can find the price by product #.

James

[brent stanley]

This seems like a pretty standard euroblock to pick up
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=20

But should i get it in steel or alloy? Also, the diameter and height vary quite a bit, not sure which is best. Assuming this will be my cope/stick head, should i get two? Can you use these heads as effective rebate heads, or should i get this combo head
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=60

Finally, what panel raiser is preferred? I see whitehill offers two different diameters.
http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=35


Im not going to buy this all at once, but i would like to start using the shaper as a shaper instead of a glorified router table. i think right off the bat, i want one of the euroblock heads to do rebates, chamfers, and profiles. I also want a byrd head for template work. 80% of my router table work was templating. I was thinking the 3" diameter 4" tall byrd head with matching rub bearing would do nicely. From there i will let the project dictate what to buy, but i see myself doing an exterior entrance door for my parents and standard cabinet door stuff for vanities in the next year or so.

Hi Patrick, you have found the most logical head for your use in the Whitehill Combi head. I own one and it is absolutely a no-compromise rebate block as well as a no-compromise euroblock. It is a skew head (for shear cut) rebate block and comes equipped with spurrs as well. It is NOT one of those situations where a multi-purpose tool results in it not being very good at anything. You can get a bearing for the top or bottom and you'll have an excellent template cutter as well, and you'll probably find you don't need to invest in the Byrd head. You don't need to remove the carbide rebate knives or spurs when using the HSS knives. Whitehill is a leader in the industry, but I bought my head that can perform a number of functions for less than my smaller Felder Euroblock.

They come in two sizes, but your machine can handle the larger one and if you wish, you can set it up to run as a tenon cutter with scribed shoulders. I did a video series on shapers for small shops, and the combi head is the fourth video of the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z7DMBfzluY&t=20s

B

[Jeff Duncan]

I use a Freud, a Stehle, and an Amana and they're all very similar and knives can mostly be interchanged between them as well. My guess is the aluminum heads are better for light weight and light powered machines? As far as cutting I don't notice any difference. I bought all mine used either on the auction sites or they came with shaper purchases.

As far as raised panels I use the Innovator head form CG Schmidt and find it to be a great tool. You can use steel or carbide knives with it. Haven't tried any others so can't speak to different versions.

For the pattern head I use an Amana. It's aluminum but doesn't seem to be a problem. I find it to be an indispensable tool so don't think you can go wrong having one if you do a decent amount of shaper work.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Kelly]

The Amana and CMT rebate heads are almost identical. Both are good, Amana one is slightly shorter.

[Nick Lazz]

Not intending to hijack this thread but can someone point me to some information on rebate heads? I am having difficulty understanding what they are and why they are being recommended...it's my own ignorance, not a critique. Looking at the rail and panel set Patrick listed on CL, if new they are $1800, I'm having difficulty seeing the value for hobbyists.
Thanks for the help.

[Peter Kelly]

http://www.dimartooling.com/Dimar/UploadFiles/pgallery/201771712505189_Big.JPG

http://www.dimartooling.com/rebating-cutter-b- (http://www.dimartooling.com/rebating-cutter-b-)

[Patrick Kane]

Thanks for all the replies. I reached out to whitehill as well, and they recommended the combi head to start out with. If you all get good results using shear rebate heads for template work then that saves me even more money on tooling. I think I’m going to start out with the combi head, a 4 wheel power feeder, and then keep my eye out for a used insert cope/stick set. I honestly think the Freud sets will be more than good enough for my purposes. That should cover 95% of my bases.

Final question, should I get the 96x40 or the 125x55?

[brent stanley]

Thanks for all the replies. I reached out to whitehill as well, and they recommended the combi head to start out with. If you all get good results using shear rebate heads for template work then that saves me even more money on tooling. I think I’m going to start out with the combi head, a 4 wheel power feeder, and then keep my eye out for a used insert cope/stick set. I honestly think the Freud sets will be more than good enough for my purposes. That should cover 95% of my bases.

Final question, should I get the 96x40 or the 125x55?


It's a bit of a trade-off.

The 96x40 will run their 4mm thick knives, both the standard 40mm "Euroblock knives as well as most of their 55mm knives. The pin spacing is the same. The 40mm knives of course are the cheap ones readily available.

However, the larger head will run all of the 55mm knives (fully supported with nothing hanging over) as well as thicker 6mm thick knives which gives you a whole other world of profile options due to the thicker steel allowing more projection. The larger head may also be able to run the small 40mm knives but a lot of it will get buried inside the head because of it's larger diameter.

With a machine your size, I would definitely get the larger head. Also talk with Whitehill about getting the recess milled into the top of the block so you can flush mount it and use the head as a tenon cutter too. I talk about it in the video if you're not sure what I mean.

When you order the head, I think it's worth trying a cope and stick set of knives as well. They work extremely well, and you may find you won't need a dedicated insert set if you're not putting out huge volumes.

Good luck!

Brent

[Rod Sheridan]

Not intending to hijack this thread but can someone point me to some information on rebate heads? I am having difficulty understanding what they are and why they are being recommended...it's my own ignorance, not a critique. Looking at the rail and panel set Patrick listed on CL, if new they are $1800, I'm having difficulty seeing the value for hobbyists.
Thanks for the help.

Hi Nick, the rebate heads have scoring cutters to reduce tear out and hogging cutters to remove the material.

They are used for jointing, rebating, pattern copying, dimensioning, and if you have a tilting spindle they can chamfer and bevel.

They're one of the most used cutters in my shop.........Regards, Rod.

380087

[Nick Lazz]

Brent, what does Whitehill label their cope and stick cutters as in their catologue? Also can other manufacturers knives be used in their combi head?

[brent stanley]

Brent, what does Whitehill label their cope and stick cutters as in their catologue? Also can other manufacturers knives be used in their combi head?

Hi Nick, in Europe they call cope, scribe, and stick, mould. I find their paper catalogue easier than their web page because they match the profile up for you in a chart. The pin spacing and diameter on their 40mm and 55mm knives are the same and are the same as the CMT, Amana and Dimar blocks people have been referring to. The Whitehill blocks have slots for limiter knives of course unlike the other three. You CAN run them without the limiters (just put a short blank in where a full limiter would normally go) if you want, but of course they're not as safe this way.

The nice thing about the 55mm knives is that you can get two sets of cope and stuck (scribe and mould) on one set of knives! You just have to flip the knives.

B

[Nick Lazz]

Thanks Brent. You, Patrick and Rod et al just opened my eyes a bit...and my wallet. :)

[brent stanley]

Thanks Brent. You, Patrick and Rod et al just opened my eyes a bit...and my wallet. :)

Do you have a catalogue? They have given me one in each of my last three orders. I have one for the shop, one for the back of the toilet and I don't need the third! :)

PM me and I can put it in the mail for you, or Whitehill will send you one I'm sure.

Brent

[Mike Wilkins]

The rebate head that Rod shows in the photo is great for pattern routing with a rub bearing which is the same diameter as the rebate head.

[brent stanley]

The rebate head that Rod shows in the photo is great for pattern routing with a rub bearing which is the same diameter as the rebate head.

It is! I have one for my combi head and it works a treat.

B

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for all the replies. I reached out to whitehill as well, and they recommended the combi head to start out with. If you all get good results using shear rebate heads for template work then that saves me even more money on tooling. I think I’m going to start out with the combi head, a 4 wheel power feeder, and then keep my eye out for a used insert cope/stick set. I honestly think the Freud sets will be more than good enough for my purposes. That should cover 95% of my bases.

Final question, should I get the 96x40 or the 125x55?

I looked at the combination head and decided I didn't feel like removing the profile knives so I opted for 2 cutter heads.

The HSS knives for the head are available in cope and stick from Felder, Dimar, CMT etc.

Felder do run sales once or twice a year, often a good place to get tooling at reduced cost...............Rod.

[brent stanley]

I looked at the combination head and decided I didn't feel like removing the profile knives so I opted for 2 cutter heads.

The HSS knives for the head are available in cope and stick from Felder, Dimar, CMT etc.

Felder do run sales once or twice a year, often a good place to get tooling at reduced cost...............Rod.

It really isn't a tremendous burdon and only takes minutes. Besides, once you are done with the knives, you should remove them anyway and clean them off as well as the block. So if you do that you're basically always starting at the same place anyway.

The only 40mm Euroblock knives I've seen from Felder, Dimar and CMT are all produced by the same company in Germany and are cheaper, economy grade steel. They have their role of course and I own some, but Whitehill and others who deal with HSS tooling as a core component of their business often use much more durable knife stock.

[Jared Sankovich]

In addition to the pin knife head and a couple (or more) rebate heads a single or dual hook corrugated head would be a good item to have. They are relatively inexpensive for the head, and offer a significant increase in depth of cut.

You can have any pattern ground by most shops (including cope and stick sets) with nothing more than a sketch or existing part. Cost is higher than the cheap pin knives but only around $20 per inch of steel (per knife)