Dimensioning 10/4 lumber for bench build...How to go about it?

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

First, a minor brag. I got lucky with this yellow pine.
379791379792379793
Six pieces that are over 2" thick, 72-76" long, mostly knot-free, and most of the pieces are close to quartersawn. About 66 board feet total. I'm not sure how much quarter-sawing matters with softwoods given that I never see it but it got me excited. The guy had a yellow pine slab that was 20 ft. long and pretty clear he wanted to sell me but I don't have the means to transport it nor the energy to break it down.

Anywhoo, I'm finally breaking down and building a real workbench. I've settled on a Moravian bench like Will Myers' because it's easily broken down for moving and it's the lightest design I've seen that will still hold up to the type of work I hope to be doing.

My main question is, how would you guys go about breaking down these pieces for the benchtop? Will Myers' plans call for a top that is 76"x13.5"x3.5" and these pieces I have are all about 2.25" thick and 8" wide. Would you laminate two pieces face-to-face to get the necessary thickness? Or would you rip pieces that are 3.5" wide, then turn them on their sides and laminate those face-to-face so that the benchtop is all edge grain?

Thanks!

[Mike Baker 2]

That's lovely pine, IMO. But I'll let the experienced guys here answer your question.

[Stanley Covington]

First, a minor brag. I got lucky with this yellow pine.
379791379792379793
Six pieces that are over 2" thick, 72-76" long, mostly knot-free, and most of the pieces are close to quartersawn. About 66 board feet total. I'm not sure how much quarter-sawing matters with softwoods given that I never see it but it got me excited. The guy had a yellow pine slab that was 20 ft. long and pretty clear he wanted to sell me but I don't have the means to transport it nor the energy to break it down.

Anywhoo, I'm finally breaking down and building a real workbench. I've settled on a Moravian bench like Will Myers' because it's easily broken down for moving and it's the lightest design I've seen that will still hold up to the type of work I hope to be doing.

My main question is, how would you guys go about breaking down these pieces for the benchtop? Will Myers' plans call for a top that is 76"x13.5"x3.5" and these pieces I have are all about 2.25" thick and 8" wide. Would you laminate two pieces face-to-face to get the necessary thickness? Or would you rip pieces that are 3.5" wide, then turn them on their sides and laminate those face-to-face so that the benchtop is all edge grain?

Thanks!

Do you have an electronic jointer and thickness planer? Do you have a tablesaw or glulam saw that will cut 4.5"?

You wrote that they are all "about 2.25" thick and 8" wide." You also wrote that the plans you have call for 3.5" thick X 13.5" wide top. If that is your goal, and assumming you have the tools mentioned above, this is what I would do.

1. Scrub the boards down with a steel brush to remove embedded grit and oxidized wood.
2. Trim 1/4" off the each end of each board to eliminate embedded grit that will dull your blades and scratch your beds. You may not see it, but grit is always there.
3. Thickness plane 4 boards, and joint one edge of each. They don't need to be the same exact thickness, but they do need to be free of twist, and mostly straight. A little bow is not a problem.
4. Number the boards to maintain orientation.
5. Clamp 2 adjacent boards together face to face and with the jointed edge top, and drill a series of holes located 2" and 6" down from jointed edge, distributed near the ends and in between. Too many holes is better than too few.
6. Repeat the aligning and drilling until you have enough holes for dowels to keep all 4 boards in alignment with each other
5. Apply wax to and drive a dowel of the corresponding size into the holes of two adjoining boards. Alternate holes so only half of them are used during this first glueup. The dowels should be slightly shorter (1/4"?) that the combined width of the boards, and their ends recessed. These dowels will keep the boards in alignment during glueup.
6. Glue, clamp, and let cure 2 adjoining boards for 2 days (make sure the wood is warm prior to, and your workplace is warm during cure).
7. Repeat for the other 2 boards. You should have 2 gluelams now.
8. Rip each glulam in half, and dimension each to the same width. You should have 4 glulams now, each approximately 3.75"wide x 4"thick (depending on how much waste was lost to dimensioning).
9. Insert waxed dowels in the remaining holes.
10. Glue, clamp, and cure these 4 glulams, in 3 sets or all at once, to make a single glulam approximately 3.75"thick X 16"wide.
11. Cleanup squeezout.
12. Flatten with handplanes.

If this is too wide (sounds just right to me, and I would want the extra mass, space permitting), then mill the boards thinner to begin with, e.g. 1-11/16"

This will let you glueup a top with the minimum waste and without a helper (asuming your back and knees are OK). If you don't have the powertools, then the same thing can be accomplished using handplanes and handsaws, it will just take longer and you will lose weight. You will need at least 10 heavy duty bar clamps or pipe clamps.

Stan

[William Fretwell]

The edge grain top makes the most sense and provides the best chance for the glue surface to mate well. I would plane the surfaces before ripping for more control. One thing to note is as you glue up the surface may cup or bow so allow some extra to plane down to flat. How much you can judge as you see how the faces match up. You will still have lots of wood either way.

No Idea what work you plan or if the 'light' design will be heavy enough.

Some large English workbenches would have a thinner top and just edge join such boards but those benches tend to be huge.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'd take Stan's approach, which sounds excellent to me.

One thing, make sure you orient the board so that they plane the same way (grain should rise in the same direction on each board). That will make future flattening a breeze.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Ha. I have absolutely made that mistake in the past. Lucky for me it was on a 30" long table top and the grain was rising very shallowly so I could smooth it with a high angle plane without much tearout.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Stanley,
First of all, thank you for the detailed reply. It gives me a lot to think about before beginning this ordeal. I've never used dowels before and hadn't thought about it until now.

I'm confused about the process you propose, though. Maybe I'm misreading something but first I would glue two boards together edge-to-edge. Doing this twice would give me two laminated boards that are about 16" wide and 2" thick. Then (step 8) is ripping them in half again? Wouldn't I just be cutting right back through the glue line and undoing the previous step?

Oh, and as for power tools...I don't own any of those things myself but I figured for this project I'll probably have to borrow some or have a local cabinetmaker make some cuts for me. I'm not sure if I'm enough of a masochist to do it all by hand. We shall see. Maybe I'll have a vision or some superior force will command me to do it the old-fashioned way.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

The edge grain top makes the most sense and provides the best chance for the glue surface to mate well. I would plane the surfaces before ripping for more control. One thing to note is as you glue up the surface may cup or bow so allow some extra to plane down to flat. How much you can judge as you see how the faces match up. You will still have lots of wood either way.

No Idea what work you plan or if the 'light' design will be heavy enough.

Some large English workbenches would have a thinner top and just edge join such boards but those benches tend to be huge.

I would tell you what I plan to work on except I also do not know. Nothing huge in the foreseeable future, though. Either way, one thing I do know will be in my future is a decent amount of moving so a bench that can be taken apart is important to me. The Moravian design seems to work well enough for other folks so I'm not too worried about the weight. Mine would end up being heavier if I make the actual work surface wider than the 13.5" in Will Myers' bench, and right now I'm thinking I'll do that. On his bench there's an 11"-wide tool tray behind the work surface, and I don't see myself needing that much space in a tool tray.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Matthew, not edge to edge, but face to face. Each of the two glue ups would end up being about 4.5" x 8". You then rip each of those (halving the 8") to get two 4.5" x 4" pieces. You would now have four 4.5" x 4" pieces. Glue those up for about 18" x 4".

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Matthew, not edge to edge, but face to face. Each of the two glue ups would end up being about 4.5" x 8". You then rip each of those (halving the 8") to get two 4.5" x 4" pieces. You would now have four 4.5" x 4" pieces. Glue those up for about 18" x 4".

What he said.

[Stanley Covington]

The dowels are not absolutely essential, especially if you have a helper. They make the glue up go a lot quicker and with less stress and less flattening required afterward. School of Hard Knocks graduate ( PhD) talking.

The wax keeps the dowels from becoming glued into the holes. They can induce splitting or delamination in subsequent months as the wood becomes “skinnier “ otherwise. Biscuits will do an even better job if you have such equipment, and biscuits don’t need to be waxed.

If you do it by hand, I applaud you! I suggest you allow twice as much time as you estimate it will take. I was not kidding about losing weight. It’s a lot of wood to dimension.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

I'd take Stan's approach, which sounds excellent to me.

One thing, make sure you orient the board so that they plane the same way (grain should rise in the same direction on each board). That will make future flattening a breeze.

A very astute suggestion.

[William Fretwell]

I would tell you what I plan to work on except I also do not know. Nothing huge in the foreseeable future, though. Either way, one thing I do know will be in my future is a decent amount of moving so a bench that can be taken apart is important to me. The Moravian design seems to work well enough for other folks so I'm not too worried about the weight. Mine would end up being heavier if I make the actual work surface wider than the 13.5" in Will Myers' bench, and right now I'm thinking I'll do that. On his bench there's an 11"-wide tool tray behind the work surface, and I don't see myself needing that much space in a tool tray.

If you have a narrow bench then the tool tray becomes very useful to keep the work surface available and the tools to hand. The legs are key to keeping it mobile, if they dismantle easily then just wrestling the top becomes your primary concern. Trestle legs with wedges break down easily but the top can be hard to manage in hardwood for one person. My top is 240 lb so requires two strong people to manage but the bench breaks down easily.

Like you I dimension my rough lumber by hand. It is lots of work for hardwood. Your biggest challenge by hand is keeping the boards flat, both sides so you can glue the faces together with few gaps. Some small gaps will make no difference but you want the top to remain flat as you progressively glue it together. When you start out you can convince yourself it's pretty flat, not much of a twist, hardly cupped, only a little bowed etc. The final product will remind you forever that you were wrong! That's how we learn.

The suggested dowel alignment method would work well. Biscuits can do the job but require an accurate reference face, even a little off guarantees they won't line up. Dry fitting will tell you whether to ignore a particular biscuit and cut a new one. Glue ups on the large scale can move so some alignment aid helps as does a lot of beefy clamps.

Finding someone with a large thickness planer to prep the faces will give you a huge head start, you can do the edges by hand and it will become a long weekend job for the top.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

What he said.

Aha, that makes a lot more sense. I imagine you thought it was self-evident. Clearly you were not aware of the magnitude of my power to over-think things and confuse simple situations.

[Pat Barry]

I would want to try to minimize the number of knots in what will be the top surface of your finished bench so I would take each board and find the best lines to rip them so as to minimize knots in the top surface. With 8 inch wide boards you can optimize to get two boards for laminating from each. This is different than Stan proposed, otherwise, you could use much of the same order of work Stan proposed.

Note - If there is a bit of twist, and you can relatively easily twist it back straight, then I wouldn't hesitate to laminate the pieces as the strength of the glue will hold things together nicely and pine such as this is fairly soft wood and pliable. If it takes a lot of clamping pressure to remove the twist then you will need to address that - also goes for localized warp or bow like you often find around knots.

I would also probably not do the dowels as this would just be more work that you can forgo by proper clamp /caul placement. By all means use the dowels though if it makes you more comfortable.

Also, I would do progressive lamination, starting with two piecees that bow together opposite so as you clamp them together the smile formed between them closes up - this will help ensure that there is as little stress in the lamination as possible. Note: for this first pair of boards I would want a stiff / straight reference to clamp them to to make sure you ended up as straight as possible. Once these are laminated you can progressively add another board or two aat a time to complete the top to the desired width.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

The dowels are not absolutely essential, especially if you have a helper. They make the glue up go a lot quicker and with less stress and less flattening required afterward. School of Hard Knocks graduate ( PhD) talking.

The wax keeps the dowels from becoming glued into the holes. They can induce splitting or delamination in subsequent months as the wood becomes “skinnier “ otherwise. Biscuits will do an even better job if you have such equipment, and biscuits don’t need to be waxed.

If you do it by hand, I applaud you! I suggest you allow twice as much time as you estimate it will take. I was not kidding about losing weight. It’s a lot of wood to dimension.

Stan

Not to get too Schwarz-y up in here but:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2018/01/04/loose-tenons-workbench-tops/

What are your thoughts on loose tenons vs dowels? Dowels would obviously be a lot easier. But is there any advantage to loose tenons that I'm not thinking of?

And while I'm at it...what glue would you use?

[Stanley Covington]

Not to get too Schwarz-y up in here but:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2018/01/04/loose-tenons-workbench-tops/

What are your thoughts on loose tenons vs dowels? Dowels would obviously be a lot easier. But is there any advantage to loose tenons that I'm not thinking of?

And while I'm at it...what glue would you use?

I have been fascinated with the idea of pegged tenons as (supposedly) used by the English Woodworker dude for some years now. I would love to give them a try. But as you pointed out, they are a LOT more work.

The biggest advantage to tenons would be that if the glue bond fails, the top should stay together, assuming the tenons are pinned correctly.

Re glue, I would use Titebond III. Regular Titebond will set too quickly, and I want the extra water-resistance Titebond III provides. If money is not an issue, a marine epoxy like TotalBoat would be even better.

As I mentioned before, a biscuit joiner would be better and a lot quicker.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

As I mentioned before, a biscuit joiner would be better and a lot quicker.


Don't tempt me...

As for the pegged tenons. Despite my lack of experience I still feel fairly confident in saying that it's overkill. I've seen too many benches without that kind of joinery that seem to hold up just fine.

Epoxy would be nice for peace of mind but $$$.

Have you or anyone else seen any laminations fail for any reason other than poor construction to begin with?

[Stanley Covington]

Don't tempt me...

As for the pegged tenons. Despite my lack of experience I still feel fairly confident in saying that it's overkill. I've seen too many benches without that kind of joinery that seem to hold up just fine.

Epoxy would be nice for peace of mind but $$$.

Have you or anyone else seen any laminations fail for any reason other than poor construction to begin with?

I have seen laminations fail many times in commercial situations. Poor bond (not enough glue, bad glue, or dimensional problems that create a gap too big for glue to span). Water. Rot. Excessive shear stresses. The first is a quality problem. The last is a design/loading problem. The others are environmental. Wood is not really a durable material.

[William Fretwell]

So water, rot and excessive stress? You must mean earthquakes, biblical floods and plagues of wood eating insects? It used to be so easy to just glue a few boards together........
If they are 4 inches wide and fairly flat even at 30% contact that's a lot of glue contact.

You could also drill right through the width of the assembled top a foot from each end and in the middle & install threaded steel rod with countersunk washers & bolts to stop it from even thinking of coming apart. I believe 24" drill bits are fairly common and sometimes they go straight. Now you only have to worry about the plagues of wood boring beetles; that's what I did ;).

Back to glue area, if you plane the boards flat before ripping, then rip, then glue, you get more glue area contact. Why? Because you just halved the irregularities before glue up.

[Stanley Covington]

So water, rot and excessive stress? You must mean earthquakes, biblical floods and plagues of wood eating insects? It used to be so easy to just glue a few boards together........
If they are 4 inches wide and fairly flat even at 30% contact that's a lot of glue contact.

You could also drill right through the width of the assembled top a foot from each end and in the middle & install threaded steel rod with countersunk washers & bolts to stop it from even thinking of coming apart. I believe 24" drill bits are fairly common and sometimes they go straight. Now you only have to worry about the plagues of wood boring beetles; that's what I did ;).

Back to glue area, if you plane the boards flat before ripping, then rip, then glue, you get more glue area contact. Why? Because you just halved the irregularities before glue up.

Thinking before snarking is a sound policy.

All it takes is a flood (lots of those going around), a leaky roof or flashing, or a leaky waterpipe, drain pipe, or condensation pan overhead to provide water. Once soaked, a laminated wood product will delaminate if/when the glue fails. Happens everyday, donchano. Ergo, water-resistant TiteBond III glue or marine epoxy. Belt, suspenders, and a carbon-fiber cup.

If, through circumstances or neglect, the wood is allowed to remain damp long enough, bacteria will thrive and rot will occur. Bugs too, I suppose. The bond between glue and wood will fail in this case even if the glue does not degrade.

Rot and bug damage can be mitigated by using pressure-treated wood (yuck), or borax-treated wood. That's the commercial glulam solution.

Stresses are a significant issue in structural glulams. They do fail. Maybe the cause is an earthquake. Maybe its snowload or too many fat people twerking at once. While stress is a significant factor in the failure of laminated wood products, it is not relevant to workbench tops.

Through-bolts are an effective substitute for clamps during glueup, but if seasonal humidity changes are high, they can cause more problems than they solve in wider laminations.

The ripping method I suggested saves time and effort, assuming one has a tablesaw or gluelam saw with adequate capacity. If one has to rip everything by hand, then I agree with your proposed modification.

What irregularities? Those were already cleaned up in step 3.

[William Fretwell]

Titebond III is a worthwhile investment, I get the gallon jugs. I did watch one bench glue up where he added 400 screws as he went, keeping track of their positions!
As for irregularities, it's wood! My bench top edge joints were tuned with 1500 W of halogen floodlight right behind the joint until the light went out.
I did use epoxy for the tail vise & shoulder vise joints for gap filling & shear strength. The finish applied to the bench will do a lot to help shed water such as BLO.
Something as simple as a plastic backed drop cloth draped over the bench when left will cost $5 and save lots of worry about water. My workshop roof leaks in one spot in extreme weather, the spot is clearly marked on the concrete so the only thing I leave there is a bucket!

[Stanley Covington]

Titebond III is a worthwhile investment, I get the gallon jugs. I did watch one bench glue up where he added 400 screws as he went, keeping track of their positions!
As for irregularities, it's wood! My bench top edge joints were tuned with 1500 W of halogen floodlight right behind the joint until the light went out.
I did use epoxy for the tail vise & shoulder vise joints for gap filling & shear strength. The finish applied to the bench will do a lot to help shed water such as BLO.
Something as simple as a plastic backed drop cloth draped over the bench when left will cost $5 and save lots of worry about water. My workshop roof leaks in one spot in extreme weather, the spot is clearly marked on the concrete so the only thing I leave there is a bucket!

A word to the wise. There are a few of you here at SMC. Do not rely on BLO to protect a workbench top or any wood from water damage.

Developing, applying, and using finishes intended to protect wood from water damage is an effort that involves many industries, many companies, and millions of end-users around the world. There is a lot of money and real estate at stake, so serious, well-educated, no-nonsense people focused on real-world results, not the scribblers that shill power tools via hobbyist magazines, have been focused like a laser on this problem for many generations. A lot of testing of wood finishes has been performed by government, institutional, and commercial researchers over many decades. Those results are published, and consistent. BLO is an ancient wood finishing product. But every result I have read concludes that BLO provides almost no protection against moisture intrusion, liquid or vapor, into wood fibers. That means almost ZERO protection. It doesn't work, but is simply a traditional finish that is easily applied. I know all the scribblers and gurus love the stuff, but it is worthless.

Many have an emotional investment in BLO, strange as that sounds. But if you doubt what I am writing, do some research. Your woodworking projects deserve better than BLO.

[Robert Engel]

Matthew,

One word of advice: Don't over complicate it. This is not a difficult task. The main thing to remember is do not plane your lumber to final dims in one session. If its well seasoned take at least 2 planing sessions, maybe even 3. Allow 3-4 days in stickers to dry and de-stress. This is less critical for qs wood, but still a good practice to develop.

So here would be my process for your lumber:

1. Cut to rough lengths.
1a.Rip boards in half with bandsaw or tracksaw (unless you have at least a 10" jonter & please do NOT use tablesaw for this!)
2. Joint 1 face
3. Plane to rough thickness (remember to leave over size)
4. Joint 1 edge.
5. Rip to rough width (1/4" oversize & jointed edge against fence)
6. Sticker for at least 2 and up to 7 days
7. Repeat jointing, planing and re-rip to final dims.
8. Glue up (face to face) in sections no wider than your planer can handle.
6. Clean up with planer -LIGHT passes both sides
7. Glue subsections together.
8. Fine tune for final flattening/detwisting with hand planes.

If you have worries about alignment you can use biscuits, splines, or dowels but they are not necessary.

Use TB III glue.

Build the base first use it for working on top.

Pay close attention and be SURE you glue up the top with the grain direction the same for a nice final planing job.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

A word to the wise. There are a few of you here at SMC. Do not rely on BLO to protect a workbench top or any wood from water damage.

Developing, applying, and using finishes intended to protect wood from water damage is an effort that involves many industries, many companies, and millions of end-users around the world. There is a lot of money and real estate at stake, so serious, well-educated, no-nonsense people focused on real-world results, not the scribblers that shill power tools via hobbyist magazines, have been focused like a laser on this problem for many generations. A lot of testing of wood finishes has been performed by government, institutional, and commercial researchers over many decades. Those results are published, and consistent. BLO is an ancient wood finishing product. But every result I have read concludes that BLO provides almost no protection against moisture intrusion, liquid or vapor, into wood fibers. That means almost ZERO protection. It doesn't work, but is simply a traditional finish that is easily applied. I know all the scribblers and gurus love the stuff, but it is worthless.

Many have an emotional investment in BLO, strange as that sounds. But if you doubt what I am writing, do some research. Your woodworking projects deserve better than BLO.

I have unfortunately had to accept this reality. As I first got into woodworking I spent a lot of time playing with old axes. If you go on any outdoors forum and read the talk about axes, you will hear all kinds of things about BLO from every "expert." Everything from "soak the entire axe in linseed oil for a week so that the oil soaks in deeper" to "thin the oil with a solvent so it soaks in deeper" etc. etc.

As I got into woodworking more I got ahold of Bob Flexner's book which basically says that BLO is almost worthless for water resistance. I actually posted that information on one forum to which a lot of old timey "experts" said bs. After all, Bob Flexner is just some random guy who wrote a book, and obviously that is no match for some random guy on the internet who learned from his grandpappy who grew up around the woods but didn't graduate eighth grade.

Anywhoo, there's a good study that was done by the Forest Service in which they tested all the different common finishes including BLO. It's pretty easy to find so I won't attach it here. Needless to say it basically confirms that BLO is the least protective wood finish out there.

That all said, I still use BLO quite a bit including on all my axe and tool handles. If I'm that worried about moisture then BLO mixed with beeswax. Still not that protective but honestly I think some folks get a little overprotective when it comes to moisture. My BLO-finished axe handles get wet and spend plenty of time outside, and I've never had an issue. I just wipe off any moisture when I can and put a new coat of BLO on every year or so. If there was any risk of standing water being on a wooden item for some time-like a workbench in a room that has a leaky roof-then I would probably not use BLO. But as of now that is my plan because I like the look and feel of it, and more importantly I like how easy it is to repair and maintain.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Matthew,

One word of advice: Don't over complicate it.

But that is one of my primary skills in life...

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Next question, though, now that I've had a few days to mull this over.

I do have access to a regular lunchbox planer that a friend has, and it should be wide enough for this stuff. I think I'll be fine flattening one face enough for the planer, and I think I can probably handle jointing the edges as well.

What I don't think I want to do by hand is make the long rips, and I don't have a band saw. I've been considering buying one for some time so maybe that time is now but I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?

[Phil Mueller]

My suggestion would be to rip it as close as you can by eye and run them through the thickness planer using the outside edge (assuming it’s fairly flat, level and square) to even everything up prior to the glue up. It’s all going to need to be planed flat once it’s glued up, so don’t worry about a fraction of an inch here and there.

[Stanley Covington]

Next question, though, now that I've had a few days to mull this over.

I do have access to a regular lunchbox planer that a friend has, and it should be wide enough for this stuff. I think I'll be fine flattening one face enough for the planer, and I think I can probably handle jointing the edges as well.

What I don't think I want to do by hand is make the long rips, and I don't have a band saw. I've been considering buying one for some time so maybe that time is now but I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?

Use a handplane, straightedge and winding sticks (or equivalent) to clean up one side (widest dimension = 8" right?). It doesn't need to be perfect. With one side cleaned up on all the boards, put them through the thickness planer to clean the opposite side. Then switch sides and clean up the face you handplaned. This should get the two faces pretty close to parallel.

Use your handplane to true and straighten one edge, square to the sides.

Now, you can use a circular saw with a guide to rip each to width. The guide does not need to be long, just solid. You can screw a wooden extension to the guide if it makes you feel better. You just need to be steady, keep the quide tight against the edge you hand jointed, and take your time in the cut. Don't let the motor bog down. Make sure the blade is 90 degrees to the saw's plate. Seriously, check it on their with a square. Don't rely on those silly indexing/angle marks the manufacturers put on their saws. Not to be trusted. If you get this wrong, the time and material wasted will make you want to cry.

Don't forget to scrub the wood with a steel brush and cut off 1/4" of the end of each board to eliminate embedded grit. This is especially important if you are borrowing someone else's tools. Offer to pay to have his blades sharpened. Always return a tool you borrowed in better condition than when you received it.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Now, you can use a circular saw with a guide to rip each to width. The guide does not need to be long, just solid. You can screw a wooden extension to the guide if it makes you feel better. You just need to be steady, keep the quide tight against the edge you hand jointed, and take your time in the cut. Don't let the motor bog down. Make sure the blade is 90 degrees to the saw's plate. Seriously, check it on their with a square. Don't rely on those silly indexing/angle marks the manufacturers put on their saws. Not to be trusted. If you get this wrong, the time and material wasted will make you want to cry.


I'm gonna give this a shot on one of the boards to see how it goes. I'll joint one edge first to have a good reference for the saw guide. Right now my only alternative is a table saw and honestly I feel more comfortable using a circular saw here. The table saw I can borrow doesn't have a riving knife or any other safety features, and these boards are also full of sap and pitch that I'm not sure how a table saw would handle.

[William Fretwell]

Yes Stanley I agree BLO is not waterproof but better than raw wood. You spill your coffee and you get longer to wipe it up. For me the attraction is it won't chip like a film finish, it is non slip and claimed to be anti fungal.
It is easily renewed on a bench top that takes abuse, like any oil finish. Applied smoking hot with wire wool & tongs once a week for 7 weeks it penetrates an astounding 1mm!
Adding bees wax to the BLO for legs and underside helps. The plastic coated drop cloth works better!

[Pat Barry]

I'm gonna give this a shot on one of the boards to see how it goes. I'll joint one edge first to have a good reference for the saw guide. Right now my only alternative is a table saw and honestly I feel more comfortable using a circular saw here. The table saw I can borrow doesn't have a riving knife or any other safety features, and these boards are also full of sap and pitch that I'm not sure how a table saw would handle.
Its likely that your circular saw will tend to bind up doing rip cuts on this wood. You may need to stop your cuts when this happens and insert some wedges in your kerf to keep it open. Something like a shim for shimming a door frame will work nicely. If you keep the kerf open things will be easy (and safer for you).

[William Fretwell]

Lots of very good advice on here! It is amazing how wood moves as you work on it, just leaving only one surface open to the air over night can change it's shape even fully dried. You release the tension on one side it can then twist. What you do to one side, do to the other is a good rule.

[Robert Engel]

I am wondering if a circular saw with a track/guide would do the job as well. My only concern with that idea is find a track or straight enough guide that is 72"+ long. Thoughts?

Matthew,

Sure will. Any straight edge will do. 8" wide length of plywood. Just needs to be close you're going to get it perfect with the jointer.

You could even do it freehand with just a chalk line.


I use BLO all the time soak all my benches and countertops a couple x/yr. BLO may not be waterproof but that's not usually an issue ww'ing generally does not involve water. But, if there's some kind of accident or leaky roof its not a big deal unless its MDF. Sure repels dried wood glue pretty well ;-)

[ernest dubois]

I'm an LO user, BLO being mostly BS.
To discount linseed oil on the basis that it doesn't repel water is about the same as discounting your Westinghouse washing machine because it won't get you into town on time to catch your bus.
Even stronger, it is one of the great and unique strengths of linseed oil that it is permeable and allows water vapors a ready route out into the atmosphere instead of remaining trapped in your wood.
It does indeed provide some water resistance, and it takes nothing more that a little conventional knowledge to get that one - water and oil don't mix. Primarily though, its use is because of the effect on the appearance of the wood it has. And that effect can be a good one unparalleled even given the application (pun) is appropriate.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Gave'r a whirl tonight. Jointed an edge, that is.
380198

This being my first time working with yellow pine, it was a learning experience with some ups and downs. Overall it cuts very nicely and I, personally, find it to be a very pretty wood. There was a significant crook in the board I picked so that combined with the fact that it was 78" long and 2-3/8" thick meant it took me a solid couple hours to joint an edge.

The tough parts:
380199 380200

I still can't figure out a decent way to work around knots. Taking a super-light cut and sharpening frequently is annoying when there's a lot of wood to be removed, as there was here. My jack plane has an A2 blade and when taking heavier cuts it seems to go through the knots easily enough, though it tears out significantly. It's the jointer that gives me trouble. The way I like my jointer set up the shavings it takes are too thick for tougher end grain so if skewing the plane doesn't work then I just skip over the knots and after so many passes I pare it down with a chisel, file it down with an Iwasaki carving file, or even bust out the sandpaper. So dealing with these knots was a pain but not the end of the world.

380201
This, the darker part in the photo, is what I didn't think about before this ordeal. At least, I think that darker, kinda translucent stuff is pitch. Anywhoo, this wood being air-dried, it is pretty sappy. I ended up having to wipe my plane soles and blades with denatured alcohol every ten minutes or so. I tried waxing it all but, at least on the sole and blade, the wax would wear off pretty quickly and didn't seem to help much.

So that part of the experience leads me to what might be the first bump in the road. This stuff is probably gonna feel kinda sticky and ooze a little sap for the next 100 years if I leave it as is. Should I find someone with a kiln and get this stuff baked to "set" the sap? Working pitchy wood is not the end of the world to me. My bigger concern is that my workbench will be pitchy and sticky, and everything that touches it will end up with a little mixture of sap and dust on it.

[Stanley Covington]

Gave'r a whirl tonight. Jointed an edge, that is.
380198

This being my first time working with yellow pine, it was a learning experience with some ups and downs. Overall it cuts very nicely and I, personally, find it to be a very pretty wood. There was a significant crook in the board I picked so that combined with the fact that it was 78" long and 2-3/8" thick meant it took me a solid couple hours to joint an edge.

The tough parts:
380199 380200

I still can't figure out a decent way to work around knots. Taking a super-light cut and sharpening frequently is annoying when there's a lot of wood to be removed, as there was here. My jack plane has an A2 blade and when taking heavier cuts it seems to go through the knots easily enough, though it tears out significantly. It's the jointer that gives me trouble. The way I like my jointer set up the shavings it takes are too thick for tougher end grain so if skewing the plane doesn't work then I just skip over the knots and after so many passes I pare it down with a chisel, file it down with an Iwasaki carving file, or even bust out the sandpaper. So dealing with these knots was a pain but not the end of the world.

380201
This, the darker part in the photo, is what I didn't think about before this ordeal. At least, I think that darker, kinda translucent stuff is pitch. Anywhoo, this wood being air-dried, it is pretty sappy. I ended up having to wipe my plane soles and blades with denatured alcohol every ten minutes or so. I tried waxing it all but, at least on the sole and blade, the wax would wear off pretty quickly and didn't seem to help much.

So that part of the experience leads me to what might be the first bump in the road. This stuff is probably gonna feel kinda sticky and ooze a little sap for the next 100 years if I leave it as is. Should I find someone with a kiln and get this stuff baked to "set" the sap? Working pitchy wood is not the end of the world to me. My bigger concern is that my workbench will be pitchy and sticky, and everything that touches it will end up with a little mixture of sap and dust on it.

An electronic jointer is a nice tool for grunt work.

Re stickiness, use an oilpot, or just wipe the bottom of the plane over a clean rag soaked in motor oil, or whatever liquid lube floats your boat.

Stan

[Robert Hazelwood]

I made my bench out of construction douglas fir, which is kiln dried a little bit but not really enough to set the pitch. There were several pitch pockets that would ooze sap and drip on the floor while I was building it. But it has not been a problem since, and a decent top coat like shellac or poly would tend to seal it in. So the bench shouldn't be sticky when you're done.

I'm doing a big project in yellow pine now myself. Luckily all of my stock is straight grained and knot free, and it planes well. I imagine the knots would be like granite. You might try setting your cap iron close, if you haven't already- it seems to stabilize the blade some and help it stay in the cut amidst the swirling grain and changing densities. Plus all of the usual tricks- keep very sharp, skew the plane, light shavings, etc.

But it is no fun at all to chop mortises in it, or to basically do anything involving a chisel. The huge contrast in hardness between the light and dark growth rings causes the chisel to want to wander and twist in the cut if you're not very careful. For the same reason, it is hell on chisel edges, moreso than any hardwood I've worked. Yet it requires extreme sharpness to work cleanly, since the soft rings tear easily. I've had to raise the bevel angles on all the chisels I'm using to minimize the chipping, and I'm still sharpening more often than usual.

Just venting a little I suppose :rolleyes: Curious to see how your experience is.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I made my bench out of construction douglas fir, which is kiln dried a little bit but not really enough to set the pitch. There were several pitch pockets that would ooze sap and drip on the floor while I was building it. But it has not been a problem since, and a decent top coat like shellac or poly would tend to seal it in. So the bench shouldn't be sticky when you're done.

I'm doing a big project in yellow pine now myself. Luckily all of my stock is straight grained and knot free, and it planes well. I imagine the knots would be like granite. You might try setting your cap iron close, if you haven't already- it seems to stabilize the blade some and help it stay in the cut amidst the swirling grain and changing densities. Plus all of the usual tricks- keep very sharp, skew the plane, light shavings, etc.

But it is no fun at all to chop mortises in it, or to basically do anything involving a chisel. The huge contrast in hardness between the light and dark growth rings causes the chisel to want to wander and twist in the cut if you're not very careful. For the same reason, it is hell on chisel edges, moreso than any hardwood I've worked. Yet it requires extreme sharpness to work cleanly, since the soft rings tear easily. I've had to raise the bevel angles on all the chisels I'm using to minimize the chipping, and I'm still sharpening more often than usual.

Just venting a little I suppose :rolleyes: Curious to see how your experience is.

That's good news on the sap issue. Having it kiln-dried for a few days wouldn't cost me much but the guy I know in town with a kiln is unavailable for about a month. Working with the sap isn't that big a deal, just a minor nuisance. I am mainly worried about having a finished workbench that feels sappy and gets sap all over the pieces I work on the bench.

Apart from the knots and sap I've found this stuff pretty enjoyable to work so far. With a decently sharp iron it cuts like butter. But then again I'm used to working with oak more than anything else. Maybe when I get around to walnut and cherry I'll look back at how miserable yellow pine was to work with.

Hopefully I can cut most of the knots out when I start dimensioning parts. There are only a handful that are big and problematic. I probably didn't pick the best board to joint first but oh well. Gotta learn how to deal with these things somehow.

[Brian Holcombe]

I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.

[ernest dubois]

I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.
That which you were warned away from, it's good for making glass putty.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I was warned away from BLO a long time ago. I don’t bother with it, and I’ve never known straight oil finishes to do much of anything beyond adding a light sheen or color.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just curious. What would you use if you want a finish that doesn't build a film?

As far as protection goes I realize BLO is not much but thus far I haven't found anything that gives a similar tactility. Even the thin wiping varnishes, which I also really like, make a piece look and feel like it has a thin film of plastic over it, which I suppose it does. I've tried tung oil but honestly it doesn't seem to offer much that BLO doesn't.

[Stanley Covington]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just curious. What would you use if you want a finish that doesn't build a film?

As far as protection goes I realize BLO is not much but thus far I haven't found anything that gives a similar tactility. Even the thin wiping varnishes, which I also really like, make a piece look and feel like it has a thin film of plastic over it, which I suppose it does. I've tried tung oil but honestly it doesn't seem to offer much that BLO doesn't.

Important Preface: Those that love BLO and are satisfied with the results will not read this post through to the end, and will misunderstand it entirely. It always happens on the subject of BLO. Very predictable. Almost like a psychosis. "Groupthink" is what Dr. Janis at Yale University called it, I think. If that is you, you are clearly not interested in alternative solutions, and cannot provide informed input to this post, so please stop reading now, close it, and go talk with your shop cat.

There are alternatives to BLO. I can share one that was taught to me by a professional gunstock maker. I have yet to find a better or more durable method.

BLO was used for centuries to finish everything from gunstocks, to fine furniture, to house siding. It was really the only thing available. Linseed oil comes from pressed flax seeds. Flax was cultivated for oil, and for fibers to produce "linen" (poor people could not afford imported cotton or luxurious wool, beyond homespun). One would apply it, let it soak in, and rub it out, polishing the wood in the process. This is where the term "hand-rubbed finish" comes from. The gunmakers of London England were famous for this technique and the beautiful results obtained. This is the famous "London Finish" that people paid lots of money for. It took literally months of handwork to accomplish.

But BLO is not very protective, and not at all durable, and must be replenished at least annually if it is to do its job, and maintain its appearance. And because BLO never fully hardens (polymerizes), does not actually physically seal the grain, and is photo-reactive and darkens over time, it attracts dust and dirt pulling it into the wood's fibers. The end result is a fragile finish that does not provide real protection against moisture or dirt, and gets dirtier and darker as time passes. Notice the condition of even well-maintained old gunstocks and high-end furniture finished with BLO after a hundred years or so.

And it adds a sickly yellow tone to the wood.

The custom gunmakers of North America developed their own finishing techniques, surpassing the British long ago in creating durable, protective, and beautiful finishes. This is why no one hears anything about the once-famous London Finish anymore.

Here is how to use if for workbenches.

Mix a good-quality synthetic-resin varnish 1:1 with a good quality thinner. Epiphanes is pricey, but the best I have found. Minwax sold at the Home Despot will work fine. WATER BASED VARNISH WILL NOT WORK, so you poor guys in Californication that are hated by your corrupt government are SOL unless you bring some home in your car after a visit to Las Vegas or Reno.

Home Despot's cheapo thinner sucks.

Apply this thin mixture with a brush to the wood. Keep applying until it won't soak up anymore. Especially endgrain. Let it dry. Repeat until the wood won't soak anymore, and dried finish is standing on the wood. It will look ugly, but that is OK. The purpose of this is to cause the varnish to penetrate deeply into the grain and seal the wood fibers, preventing/reducing moisture transfer, and dirt/grime infiltration into the wood.

Using this same 1:1 mixture and 220 grit W/D sandpaper (calm down, sandpaper is our friend), wet sand the wood. Make sure to keep the surface very wet. Use rubber gloves. You want to create a slurry of wet finish and sawdust, and then force that slurry deep into the wood's surface, further sealing the grain and preventing/reducing moisture transfer and dirt/grime infiltration. Don't wipe off the slurry, but let it dry proud on the wood's surface. It will look as ugly as a mud fence, but that's OK.

Did the wood suck up a lot of the mixture when wet sanding the first time, or not? If it did, you want to repeat the wet sanding process. Remember to let the varnish/thinner/sawdust slurry dry on top of the wood's surface. Don't wipe it off yet.

Finally, wet sand one last time cutting down all the dried mixture and dried slurry on the wood's surface, and wipe it off completely before it gets sticky. When done, there should be nothing left of the wood's surface (lots inside the wood, however). You can use 220 grit sandpaper, or go with progressively finer grits if you want a better final appearance. In the case of furniture, I finish with 600 grit.

This is the first step in the ancient and very expensive "London Finish" except you have replaced the never-fully-hardening and dirt-attracting and always-getting-darker BLO with a substance that penetrates as deeply as BLO, but actually provides durable and effective protection.

If you are making fine furniture or an expensive gunstock, you would next apply several coatings of thinned varnish on top of this, rubbing out each one until a deep, subtly lustrous surface finish is produced. Voila. It is a lot of work, and few have the patience, but if you can do a French finish, then you can do this.

But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.
But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.
But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.

NO SURFACE FILM.
NO SURFACE FILM.
NO SURFACE FILM.

I hope 3 times is the charm.

The wood is now sealed beyond just the surface. The wood is now harder than it was prior to this process. There is nothing to chip or become damaged or make the workbench top slippery. The finish can easily be refreshed any time.

As a final touch, and to keep glue from sticking, I apply floor wax (Johnsons makes a good product) after the wood has dried for a week (it will out-gas thinner for some time). Don't use furniture wax: It will create a slippery surface. Floor wax is non-slip.

This process is simply the evolution of BLO as developed by professional finishers whose clients wanted better results than BLO could provide. Give it a try and show everyone what a real hand-rubbed finish should look like.

[William Fretwell]

BLO is a drying oil, it polymerises in air making longer chains that cease to be 'oily' The surface of the wood hardens with the oil. Surface films do the same thing, partly in the wood and lots of it outside the wood. Surface films are less porus but chip or crack with time. They are not very durable for a work bench unless you pour a film of epoxy over the bench.
Do you want to feel you are working on a plastic film or on wood?
BLO will add a nice shade to many woods bringing out the grain, it does slow the ingress and egress of water vapour during seasonal changes so the expansion & contraction are more controlled. That may be all you want it to do.

Other drying oils are more expensive, some less tinting but their function is similar. The big plus is not having to remove it over decades to start again and refreshing it is simple. What more does a workbench need?

[Stanley Covington]

BLO is a drying oil, it polymerises in air making longer chains that cease to be 'oily' The surface of the wood hardens with the oil. Surface films do the same thing, partly in the wood and lots of it outside the wood. Surface films are less porus but chip or crack with time. They are not very durable for a work bench unless you pour a film of epoxy over the bench.
Do you want to feel you are working on a plastic film or on wood?
BLO will add a nice shade to many woods bringing out the grain, it does slow the ingress and egress of water vapour during seasonal changes so the expansion & contraction are more controlled. That may be all you want it to do.

Other drying oils are more expensive, some less tinting but their function is similar. The big plus is not having to remove it over decades to start again and refreshing it is simple. What more does a workbench need?

With all due respect, while BLO does a better job of polymerizing than straight linseed oil, it does not qualify as a "drying oil." It only partially polymerizes. Professional tests have repeatedly proven it does not prevent moisture ingress/egress, or mitigate seasonal expansion/contraction.

In order to make linseed oil fully polymerize, metallic drying agents must be added. At this point it is no longer BLO, but a wood finish that contains linseed oil.

If you now add varnish to the linseed oil and drying chemical mixture, you have WATCO Danish Oil Finish. A good product, but still lacking IMO.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Preface: Those that love BLO and are satisfied with the results will not read this post through to the end, and will misunderstand it entirely. It always happens on the subject of BLO. Almost like a psychosis. "Group Think" is what the psychologists call it, I think. If that is you, you are not interested in alternative solutions, and cannot provide informed input to this post, so please stop reading now, close it, and go talk with your shop cat.

There are alternatives to BLO. I can share one that was taught to me by a professional gunstock maker. I have yet to find a better or more durable method.

BLO was used for centuries to finish everything from gunstocks, to fine furniture, to house siding. It was really the only thing available. Linseed oil comes from pressed flax seeds. Flax was cultivated for oil, and for fibers to produce "linen" (poor people could not afford imported cotton or luxurious wool, beyond homespun). One would apply it, let it soak in, and rub it out, polishing the wood in the process. This is where the term "hand-rubbed finish" comes from. The gunmakers of London England were famous for this technique and the beautiful results obtained. This is the famous "London Finish" that people paid lots of money for. It took literally months of handwork to accomplish.

But BLO is not very protective, and not at all durable, and must be replenished at least annually if it is to do its job, and maintain its appearance. And because BLO never fully hardens (polymerizes), does not actually physically seal the grain, and is photo-reactive and darkens over time, it attracts dust and dirt pulling it into the wood's fibers. The end result is a fragile finish that does not provide real protection against moisture or dirt, and gets dirtier and darker as time passes. Notice the condition of even well-maintained old gunstocks and high-end furniture finished with BLO.

And it adds a sickly yellow tone to the wood.

The custom gunmakers of North America developed their own finishing techniques, surpassing the British long ago in creating durable, protective, and beautiful finishes. This is why no one hears anything about the once-famous London Finish anymore.

Here it is how to use if for workbenches.

Mix a good-quality synthetic-resin varnish 1:1 with a good quality thinner. Epiphanes is pricey, but the best I have found. Minwax sold at the Home Despot will work fine. NOT WATER BASED, so you poor guys in Californication that are hated by your corrupt government are SOL unless you bring some home in your car after a visit to Las Vegas or Reno.

Home Despot's cheapo thinner sucks.

Apply this thin mixture with a brush to the wood. Keep applying until it won't soak up anymore. Especially endgrain. Let it dry. Repeat until the wood won't soak anymore, and dried finish is standing on the wood. It will look ugly, but that is OK. The purpose of this is to cause the varnish to penetrate deeply into the grain and seal the wood fibers, preventing/reducing moisture transfer, and dirt/grime infiltration into the wood.

Using this same 1:1 mixture and 220 grit W/D sandpaper (calm down, sandpaper is our friend), wet sand the wood. Make sure to keep the surface very wet. Use rubber gloves. You want to create a slurry of wet finish and sawdust, and then force that slurry deep into the wood's surface, further sealing the grain and preventing/reducing moisture transfer and dirt/grime infiltration. Don't wipe off the slurry, but let it dry proud on the wood's surface. It will look as ugly as a mud fence, but that's OK.

Did the wood suck up a lot of the mixture when wet sanding the first time, or not? If it did, you want to repeat the wet sanding process. Remember to let the varnish/thinner/sawdust slurry dry on top of the wood's surface. Don't wipe it off yet.

Finally, wet sand one last time cutting down all the dried mixture and dried slurry on the wood's surface, and wipe it off completely before it gets sticky. When done, there should be no visible finish left on the wood (lots inside the wood, however). You can use 220 grit sandpaper, or go with progressively finer grits if you want a better final appearance. In the case of furniture, I finish with 600 grit.

This is the first step in the ancient and very expensive "London Finish" except you have replaced the never-fully-hardening and dirt-attracting and always-getting-darker BLO with a substance that penetrates as deeply as BLO, but actually provides durable and effective protection.

If you are making fine furniture or an expensive gunstock, you would next apply several coatings of thinned varnish on top of this, rubbing out each one until a deep, subtly lustrous surface finish is produced. Voila. It is a lot of work, and few have the patience, but if you can do a French finish, then you can do this.

But the sealing process, not the surface finish, is all that is required for a workbench.

The wood is now sealed beyond just the surface. The wood is now harder than it was prior to this process. There is nothing to chip or become damaged or make the workbench top slippery. The finish can easily be refreshed any time.

As a final touch, and to keep glue from sticking, I apply floor wax (Johnsons makes a good product) after the wood has dried for a week (it will out-gas thinner for some time). Don't use furniture wax: It will create a slippery surface. Floor wax is non-slip.

This process is simply the evolution of BLO as developed by professional finishers whose clients wanted better results than BLO could provide. Give it a try and show everyone what a real hand-rubbed finish should look like.


Coincidentally, I have finished a couple gunstocks and this method is pretty much what I was told to do by a very reputable stockmaker. I used Waterlox, which is thus far one of my favorite finishes. As far as protection goes, I can't imagine any piece of furniture needing more-or even as much-protection as an expensive piece of figured walnut that has 40-60 hours of handwork in it that is taken out for long walks through the woods and sometimes in harsh weather. So far the Waterlox-finished stocks have been just fine out in the rain and snow, so long as I dry them well afterward.

That all said, the wood does feel a bit different than if I used BLO. I made sure to brush on enough varnish to fill the pores (took multiple coats), sanded, and then hand-rubbed the last coats on. I think, by definition maybe, a film-building finish will inherently offer more protection than something like BLO that doesn't build a film. But it is the lack of film that gives BLO its particular feel. So the way I figured I really have to choose between a genuinely protective finish and the more-wood-like tactility of an oil.

As for the finish recipe (is that the correct term?) you described, the one thing I can't decide on thus far is whether or not to sand with a slurry of sanding dust/finish. I didn't do that on the first gunstock I finished because I thought the sanding dust in the slurry would muddy the figure and pores of the wood. I wanted the finish to be as clear as possible. But after looking at finished stocks where people sanded with a slurry I honestly don't know if I can tell much of a difference.

And back to the subject of workbenches, I honestly didn't consider the idea of something as protective as a varnish on a workbench. After all, some folks recommend not finishing them at all. I don't like that idea myself but I figured whatever I do finish-wise it will be cheap, simple, and easily maintained/repaired. I assume at some point this bench is gonna get a little beat up, and I may have to flatten the top occasionally. Oil/varnish mixture is one idea. I wonder now, though, would a more protective finish that seals out moisture more effectively also make the bench more dimensionally stable?

[Stanley Covington]

Coincidentally, I have finished a couple gunstocks and this method is pretty much what I was told to do by a very reputable stockmaker. I used Waterlox, which is thus far one of my favorite finishes. As far as protection goes, I can't imagine any piece of furniture needing more-or even as much-protection as an expensive piece of figured walnut that has 40-60 hours of handwork in it that is taken out for long walks through the woods and sometimes in harsh weather. So far the Waterlox-finished stocks have been just fine out in the rain and snow, so long as I dry them well afterward.

That all said, the wood does feel a bit different than if I used BLO. I made sure to brush on enough varnish to fill the pores (took multiple coats), sanded, and then hand-rubbed the last coats on. I think, by definition maybe, a film-building finish will inherently offer more protection than something like BLO that doesn't build a film. But it is the lack of film that gives BLO its particular feel. So the way I figured I really have to choose between a genuinely protective finish and the more-wood-like tactility of an oil.

As for the finish recipe (is that the correct term?) you described, the one thing I can't decide on thus far is whether or not to sand with a slurry of sanding dust/finish. I didn't do that on the first gunstock I finished because I thought the sanding dust in the slurry would muddy the figure and pores of the wood. I wanted the finish to be as clear as possible. But after looking at finished stocks where people sanded with a slurry I honestly don't know if I can tell much of a difference.

And back to the subject of workbenches, I honestly didn't consider the idea of something as protective as a varnish on a workbench. After all, some folks recommend not finishing them at all. I don't like that idea myself but I figured whatever I do finish-wise it will be cheap, simple, and easily maintained/repaired. I assume at some point this bench is gonna get a little beat up, and I may have to flatten the top occasionally. Oil/varnish mixture is one idea. I wonder now, though, would a more protective finish that seals out moisture more effectively also make the bench more dimensionally stable?

Don't be lazy. Try it on a test piece. If you do it right, there should be NO varnish film on the surface.

NO FILM. NO FILM. NO FILM.

Read my post again, and pay attention this time.

[ernest dubois]

Such a sweeping statement writing off the use of linseed oil as a worthless wood finish, is to say the least a bold move in the face of the thousand year history it has going back to the Turks who were using it for that and more. Stan I think you take some of the things that make it particularly useful and superior, permeability I mentioned, the long curing, and because these may or may not, such subjectivity here, be compatible with finishing gun stocks, draw the conclusion that it therefore is not a good wood finish in general. Can this really be what you are saying? I find it incredible. Well, is it helpful to get into a point/counter-point confrontation especially when the parameters are so wide and varying? I don't think so, for example to me oil has no place on a workbench - I guess for all the standard reasons. My workbench is from Leif Karlsson and early on while he was building I asked him not to finish it with anything. In the meantime he forgot and put linseed oil on - the Swedes are big into it. On the bench surface the oil was gone with flattening and the rest took me about half a days work to scrape off. Look, there are places where it has no business and should not be used. I always regret to this day once finishing a tansu of Western Red Cedar and Douglas Fir with linseed oil but for a wall cabinet in cherry wood it is the one finish that lives with the piece and will improve with time and proper maintenance. Maybe this is key, the maintenance involved, not really suitable to the lifestyles and attitudes prevailing. I just finished hauling my front room empty of its contents to give the floor its yearly oiling. It means we don't use it for a week plus a significant tax on my back and knees. Still, in the end my floor will only improve over time rather than degrade from the moment the polyurethane dries.

[Stanley Covington]

Such a sweeping statement writing off the use of linseed oil as a worthless wood finish is to say the least a bold move in the face of the thousand year history it has going back to the Turks who were using it for that and more. Stan I think you take some of the things that make it particularly useful and superior, permeability I mentioned, the long curing, and because these may or may not, such subjectivity here, be compatible with finishing gun stocks, draw the conclusion that it therefore is not a good wood finish in general. Can this really be what you are saying? I find it incredible. Well, I find it unhelpful to get into a point/counter-point confrontation especially when the parameters are so wide and varying, for example I think the oil has no place on a workbench - I guess for all the standard reasons. My workbench is from Lief Karlsson and early on while he was building it I asked him not to finish it with anything. In the meantime he forgot and put linseed oil on - the Swedes are big into it. On the bench surface it was gone with flattening and the rest took me about half a days work to scrape off. Look, there are places where it has no business and should not be used. I always regret to this day once finishing a tansu of Western Red Cedar and Douglas Fir with it but for a wall cabinet in cherry wood it is the one finish that lives with the piece and will improve with time and proper maintenance. Maybe this is key, the maintenance involved, not really suitable to the lifestyles and attitudes prevailing. I just finished hauling my front room empty of its contents to give the floor its yearly oiling. It means we don't use it for a week plus a significant tax on my back and knees. Still, in the end my floor will only improve over time rather than degrade from the moment the polyurethane dries.

Not a sweeping statement. I explained the logic clearly, and supported that explanation with facts. You may find those facts unromantic, but that does not change measured results. Old does not mean superior, anymore than an oxcart is superior to a pickup truck in modern times. Please do your research before you use bold sweeping statements to dismiss my professional experience.

Or, are you by some chance a commercial finishings chemist and can produce a long-term technical study that substantiates your quaint theory that BLO provides superior protection to wood?

If you are so convinced of BLO's superiority, I suggest you put your money where your mouth is and paint your house with it next time in the ancient manner instead of using a good latex paint, that is, if it does not take too much time away from thatching your roof.

[ernest dubois]

You discount a whole aspect of woodworking with a history of a thousand years, evidence to be seen by anyone in every museum only to rely on chemical studies, no questioning of impartiality of course, coming out of the industries own labs and the mouths of the very ones with an interest in self-promotion, and claim to have made a rational rebuttal. Ok, I give in, you win.
Here's my house, painted in linseed oil and pigment of my own making, top to bottom, inside and out.
You may say, but will it seal the wood off against water? Will it maintain its blindingly bright and chemically induced coloring?
No, it will not.
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[William Fretwell]

With all due respect, while BLO does a better job of polymerizing than straight linseed oil, it does not qualify as a "drying oil." It only partially polymerizes. Professional tests have repeatedly proven it does not prevent moisture ingress/egress, or mitigate seasonal expansion/contraction.

In order to make linseed oil fully polymerize, metallic drying agents must be added. At this point it is no longer BLO, but a wood finish that contains linseed oil.

If you now add varnish to the linseed oil and drying chemical mixture, you have WATCO Danish Oil Finish. A good product, but still lacking IMO.
If the 'professional' tests are those the forestry people did on exterior decks and roofing tile then they are hardly applicable.
My BLO applications dry just fine, no tracking of oil. The non slip finish is most appropriate for a bench.
As for moisture, here in Canada is the worst place to be a piece of wood, at 5% in the winter to 100% in the summer. If you did protect something well such as a long board with varnish then the ends will dry on their own and induce cracking, better the whole thing moves.
It seems the most desirable finishes such as hand rubbed lacquer that show off wood or drying oil all offer the least protection. Seven coats of Epifanes varnish works on a boat, yes you can still see the wood, but you repeat it every 5 years! The 7 coats of teak oil on the decking last one year.
I covered a set of white cedar chairs with a good decking protectant as they were white like paper! That was 30 years ago, the moisture got in and was held by the finish to grow mould. Only when the finish degraded did the chairs improve to the natural grey. Note to self: never apply anything to white cedar!

[ernest dubois]

Coincidentally, and since it just so happens to be at hand, yesterday I made this picture of a house in Leiden, the oldest known dated to 14th century, that is the middle ages, when chemistry was in its infancy and the painters didn't even know it existed. Original linseed oil paint, holding up pretty well these past 700 years.380312

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Don't be lazy. Try it on a test piece. If you do it right, there should be NO varnish film on the surface.

NO FILM. NO FILM. NO FILM.

Read my post again, and pay attention this time.

Though I'd normally be lazy, because you went to the trouble of outlining a specific process, I'll give it a shot. I suppose I at least owe you that for your effort. Stay tuned for more!

[Pat Barry]

Though I'd normally be lazy, because you went to the trouble of outlining a specific process, I'll give it a shot. I suppose I at least owe you that for your effort. Stay tuned for more!
It would be great to see it side by side with BLO. Just thinking out loud ...

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

It would be great to see it side by side with BLO. Just thinking out loud ...

I can do that. It might not be on yellow pine since I don't have any scraps yet but I can figure something out.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just curious. What would you use if you want a finish that doesn't build a film?

As far as protection goes I realize BLO is not much but thus far I haven't found anything that gives a similar tactility. Even the thin wiping varnishes, which I also really like, make a piece look and feel like it has a thin film of plastic over it, which I suppose it does. I've tried tung oil but honestly it doesn't seem to offer much that BLO doesn't.

Clean hand planed surfaces are in and of themselves a 'finish'. The surface is repellent to water considerably more-so than a sanded surface, so much that the Temple builders were satisfies with this finish alone. No film. I have no trouble leaving a surface bare after hand planing. Standing water will still damage this surface (IE a wet glass)

For a low build finish, I simply use an oil varnish and build it to the point where it begins to build then I stop. I do the same with shellac. Standing water still damages these surfaces.

If you need a truly water repellant finish then you need to look to modern technology, but Stan is a better guide in that area than myself. Standing water is a hard thing to protect against on wooden surfaces, a true film finish is needed....or contentious patrons. The same fellow who warned me away from BLO suggested using wipe-on poly and I believe it works well and provides a protection with a low build. I inherently dislike poly, but in some cases it's a worthwhile evil.

Those of you who follow my blog are aware I built a bar top for a kitchen this past fall. The homeowner and I thought a low-build finish would be great for the bar top...along with coasters. They were no match for thanksgiving dinner however, as I was made aware that two rings were left on the bar top....right next to the coasters.

[Pat Barry]

I can do that. It might not be on yellow pine since I don't have any scraps yet but I can figure something out.

That would be cool. I imagine that it might depend a lot on the actual material that it is used on. Mahogany, versus maple, versus ash versus pine might be completely different. I like the look of BLO on Ash and Cherry for example but I have not tried it on Mahogany / African Mahogany yet although I am considering it for a project

[ernest dubois]

I shouldn't question the grasp in general of what BLO is beyond a label, but still. Stanley has laid it out and I can accept his explanation, linseed oil that has been processed, and with the addition of siccatives, oxidizes much faster than pure linseed oil. What it is in practical terms is a sticky mess that will significantly yellow over time when exposed to air and light. For what it's worth, the siccatives which induce oxidation of the linseed oil are persistent heavy metals which science says are carcinogens.
There can be little point in an off the bat comparison once it's clear that the oil finish is less an event than it is a process.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Don't be lazy. Try it on a test piece. If you do it right, there should be NO varnish film on the surface.

NO FILM. NO FILM. NO FILM.

Read my post again, and pay attention this time.

Before I get started on this finish comparison:

1) Would Waterlox be okay as a varnish? Or would you lean away from it? I know it can be applied in the manner you described but I want to try this finish the way you outlined.
2) What thinner do you prefer? Normally I just use whatever mineral spirits I find at the crappy retail stores.

[Stanley Covington]

You discount a whole aspect of woodworking with a history of a thousand years, evidence to be seen by anyone in every museum only to rely on chemical studies, no questioning of impartiality of course, coming out of the industries own labs and the mouths of the very ones with an interest in self-promotion, and claim to have made a rational rebuttal. Ok, I give in, you win.
Here's my house, painted in linseed oil and pigment of my own making, top to bottom, inside and out.
You may say, but will it seal the wood off against water? Will it maintain its blindingly bright and chemically induced coloring?
No, it will not.
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A beautiful home indeed. I admire your excellent taste and your devotion to traditional methods.

My objection to BLO is strictly functional. My posts were simply an effort to help those here at SMC understand the limitations of BLO, thereby helping them make wise choices. I hope you would do the same for me, Ernest, when I misunderstand or make uninformed decisions about woodworking.

I work in the commercial construction industry. A constant risk in this business is a designer specifying, or a Client requesting, a material that people mistakenly assume will provide a certain performance. It is traditional, you see, and has been used for centuries. Plaster, terrazzo, paint, paving materials, stone, etc. The craftsmen that produce/install the finish warn that certain unusual maintenance procedures are required, or that certain activities will damage the product, but the designer or Client do not understand or dismiss the disclaimers. In reality, the product does indeed provide the traditional performance, but not the performance the designer/client mistakenly expected.

Accusations, recriminations, threats, and lawsuits result. I have seen this too many times to count. The lawyers always make lots of money, while reputations and careers are destroyed. And all over misunderstandings, and unrealistic expectations.

I am going through this exact problem right now with a Client who was warned, received the formal disclaimer, but went ahead with the selection of materials/ method anyway because it is “ traditional.” But despite the warnings and disclaimers, they did not adjust their expectations, and would not accept the maintenance/ renewal requirements this material/ method entailed. Sadly, this client is extremely, very, amazingly cash-rich, and has many many lawyers on-staff all eager to beat up any perceived enemies.

In the end, the Client will lose this argument, but it could have all been avoided if people had made an effort to understand the risks and adjust their expectations.

Those who decide to use BLO would be wise to understand its limitations as well as its potential benefits, and adjust their expectations accordingly.

Once again, I applaud your excellent taste.

Stan

[ernest dubois]

You grasp the realities of how a large majority of people in our culture actually interact with the material world, ( what a sad story you have as illustration too), better than I do. It's a failing I suffer as a consequence of being sequestered in an out of the way and isolated corner in the tiny village. It's true Stanley, the solutions I seek are for the most part coming from a context hard to reconcile with pervading norms and values. Another consequence is I get so lazy and fail to explain things in a way that other people can understand what the hell I am talking about.

[Stanley Covington]

You grasp the realities of how a large majority of people in our culture actually interact with the material world, ( what a sad story you have as illustration too), better than I do. It's a failing I suffer as a consequence of being sequestered in an out of the way and isolated corner in the tiny village. It's true Stanley, the solutions I seek are for the most part coming from a context hard to reconcile with pervading norms and values. Another consequence is I get so lazy and fail to explain things in a way that other people can understand what the hell I am talking about.

Thanks for your understanding. It is indeed hard to communicate effectively for us all. You do a good job of it.

I envy your village lifestyle. Mine is all packed trains, endless meetings, writing documents that will never be read, and rushed inspections. And too many damned lawyers.

A more leisurely pace in a pleasant environment with clean air and warm people. That I envy.

[Phil Mueller]

Just wanted to say I appreciate the banter, discussion, opinions and experiences with BLO. It has given me a good perspective on the stuff.

[steven c newman]

Seem to recall a "brew" made up of BLO, Wiping Varnish, and Mineral Spirits......

[Stanley Covington]

Seem to recall a "brew" made up of BLO, Wiping Varnish, and Mineral Spirits......

Don't forget the one with BLO, natural turpentine, tung oil, and beeswax. Somewhere there is surely a formula that contains eye of newt and toe of frog.

Add lead oxide, and you have the original white paint.

[steven c newman]

Perhaps maybe my Infamous Witch's Brew?


Ah...now I remember....Long time ago, there was a fellow that was "pushing" the old Pratt& Lambert 39 for use.....BLO + P&L + Mineral Spirits, to make a Wiping Varnish that he claimed gave an "In the wood" finish......Same fellow also claimed that ONLY the Shellac Flakes he sold should be used to make a shellac.

[Stewie Simpson]

Reflattened my workbench top 2 days ago to remove a 1/8" twist across its 7ft length. Resealed the surface using Danish oil.

[Pat Barry]

Years ago I finished my Ash benchtop with a few heavy coats of BLO til it wouldn't take anymore, then after it dried I coated with Johnson Paste Wax. The slipperiness never bothered me and it sure makes glue squeeze-out cleanup easy as can be.

[Stewie Simpson]

The use of paste wax will also attract the grit and grime.

[Robert Engel]

How about put a toothing plane to that top and avoid the controversy completely?

Or, just do what you want and slather it on.

BTW, I use BLO:Turpentine 50:50. I don't use it on furniture.

Open up the windows, turn on the fan and hang those rags out to dry.

[ernest dubois]

I wonder how the bench-top finishers are thinking about the holding function the bench top itself fulfills and how a finish or no finish impacts on that function. Coating the surface with wax seems to completely negate the idea that the bench top itself is meant to do a significant amount of the holding rather than relying on the clamping rig-up 100 percent, eventually over taxing any and all clamps, vices, hold-fasts, so on and so on.

[Matt Lau]

I'm not sure about the other guys, but I'll be saving Stan's tips for when I tackle my workbench.

As a guy surrounded by engineers (dad, sister, aunts, uncles, etc) and raised to be an engineer (but I rebelled), I can tell you that Stan's dead right on all accounts. He's also being very diplomatic for an engineer.

That being said, traditional finishes have their place.
When I make a present for a friend or friend's kid, I want something non-toxic and environmentall friendly.
I like fresh shellac (from seedlac) and organic walnut oil...which are both food safe...for babies that stick things in their mouth. I like fresh shellac for guitars (need to get back to building). I like Danish oil for presents to Scandanavian people.

For a hard use bench--hard to say.

[ernest dubois]

As a guy surrounded by engineers (dad, sister, aunts, uncles, etc) and raised to be an engineer (but I rebelled), I can tell you that Stan's dead right on all accounts. He's also being very diplomatic for an engineer.



Why the non-sequitur Matt?

Here is a little practical experiment you can try on your workbench. True up the top and then lay a board with a flat surface down on there and try planing with no further holding mechanism. When you are taking a light cut and your plane is in order, it should be possible. Do it for yourself, not to prove one thing or another, that way you can do your best to be objective. And the object is to make it concrete that the bench top is itself a holding mechanism when used as intended.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Update:

Finished planing a few of the boards to make the top. I picked the boards that were the straightest so that I could minimize how much thickness had to be planed off. Two of them are mostly knot-free and turned out great, and one of them is nice and straight but has a few bit knots. Hopefully those won't cause any issues. They seem stable enough.

Now, the next move is to either laminate a couple boards face-to-face or rip first and then laminate. I'm thinking the latter because:
1) I am using a circular saw with a fence to rip and its maximum cutting depth is 2-1/2"
2) More importantly, I think it will be easier to get a solid, gap-free glue up with thinner boards rather than two massive boards

But before I get to that, I have a decision to make. The straight boards that will be the top ended up being 2" thick and 9" wide. Originally I was thinking a 3-1/2" thick top because that's what Will Myers used and it seems like a good balance between stability and portability. But these boards being 9" wide, if I decide to go with a 3" thick top I can rip each board into 3 and end up with 3 2"x3" pieces from each board. If I go the 3.5" or 4" thick route I can only rip each board once and I'll have some waste left over.

If it doesn't cost me any stability or function then a 3" thick top would save me some wood which is nice, and perhaps more importantly it would ensure that the bench top is light enough for me to move by myself. Will Myers' bench top is 13-1/2" wide and 3-1/2" thick and weighs somewhere around 90-100 pounds. My plan is to make my bench top a little wider, closer to 16" wide, so if I make it 3-1/2" or 4" thick it might become too heavy for a single person to move. At 3" I can probably make it 16" wide without losing that ability.

In conclusion, do you guys think 3" is thick enough? What would I gain with an extra half inch or inch of thickness besides a little stiffness?

[Brian Holcombe]

If it were hardwood, I would think 3" would be fine, but given that it's pine I think you should aim for 4". 16" wide is pretty good.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I think 3" would be acceptable, especially if you need the bench to be portable.

If your benchtop is the same length as Will Myers', and you are both using SYP, then yours would weigh about the same as his if you make it 3" thick at 16" wide. If you make it 4" thick @ 16"w, then it would be about a third heavier than his.

Yellow pine is rather dense and stiff for a softwood.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I think 3" would be acceptable, especially if you need the bench to be portable.

If your benchtop is the same length as Will Myers', and you are both using SYP, then yours would weigh about the same as his if you make it 3" thick at 16" wide. If you make it 4" thick @ 16"w, then it would be about a third heavier than his.

Yellow pine is rather dense and stiff for a softwood.


That's what I was thinking. The E value (measure of stiffness) of SYP is pretty high. Having never experienced a real workbench, though, I figured I'd better ask folks that have. I suppose I could make it 3" and down the road add another inch of thickness via face lamination if necessary but for some (perhaps arbitrary) reason that idea bothers me.

I realize that in terms of functionality thicker never hurts but I have to consider portability as well since this thing is likely going to be moved from time to time.

[Matt Lau]

Why the non-sequitur Matt?

Here is a little practical experiment you can try on your workbench. True up the top and then lay a board with a flat surface down on there and try planing with no further holding mechanism. When you are taking a light cut and your plane is in order, it should be possible. Do it for yourself, not to prove one thing or another, that way you can do your best to be objective. And the object is to make it concrete that the bench top is itself a holding mechanism when used as intended.

Just explaining my background...and how an engineer would think.
I'm not an engineer. However, I find them to be frustratingly right on certain points most of the time (even if they can be very wrong in the big picture).

I'll try your exercise after I finally build my workbench!
Unlike pretty much everyone here, I have very little skill.
Currently, I'm using a Blum bench pony (which needs finishing, since it picks up spalting if left outside).

Anyways, what's the practical value of the exercise?
Is it to prove that a workbench should be a little rough to prevent slippage?
FWIW, I agree with you about the bench being a holding mechanism.

On another non-sequitor, I used to be obsessed with guitar varnishes.
I'd briefly looked into violin varnishes due to Manuel Valasquez's comments on varnish.
Some of the old recipes scare the heck out of me, and involve pots of oil (and stuff, like mastic, copal, etc) over an open flame for many hours! Sheesh!

[Matt Lau]

To the OP, please post pictures when you're done!
I feel free to add more nonsequitors since I think that Stan nailed it...nothing more need be said.

I'm sure you'll have a bench worth being proud of.

[Brian Holcombe]

As a point of reference I have a white oak slab 3” thick that I use as a workbench at times, it’s solid enough. My regular workbench is 1.75” and so way too thin, I hate chopping on it.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

As a point of reference I have a white oak slab 3” thick that I use as a workbench at times, it’s solid enough. My regular workbench is 1.75” and so way too thin, I hate chopping on it.

Depending on the specific species yellow pine may be a little more or a little less stiff than white oak. Either way they are both similar in stiffness though white oak is considerably harder.

Do you ever wish that your 3" oak slab was thicker?

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

To the OP, please post pictures when you're done!
I feel free to add more nonsequitors since I think that Stan nailed it...nothing more need be said.

I'm sure you'll have a bench worth being proud of.


Well, here are a couple pics of the wood after planing.
381621381623

It's kind of a shame the top surface of the benchtop will be face grain rather than the edge grain. The edge grain stripes on these quartersawn pieces are beautiful. Despite the issues with sap and pitch, I've found this stuff to be easy enough to work with. I wouldn't shy away from making furniture out of it in the future.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm an LO user, BLO being mostly BS.
To discount linseed oil on the basis that it doesn't repel water is about the same as discounting your Westinghouse washing machine because it won't get you into town on time to catch your bus.
Even stronger, it is one of the great and unique strengths of linseed oil that it is permeable and allows water vapors a ready route out into the atmosphere instead of remaining trapped in your wood.
It does indeed provide some water resistance, and it takes nothing more that a little conventional knowledge to get that one - water and oil don't mix. Primarily though, its use is because of the effect on the appearance of the wood it has. And that effect can be a good one unparalleled even given the application (pun) is appropriate.

Well, "BLO" is no longer boiled (hasn't been needed since they stopped using lead) so in that sense the "B" is "BS", but the metallic driers in BLO make a huge difference to curing time. I wouldn't describe it as "mostly BS" as a whole.

With that said I agree with Stanley's points about its desirability as a whole.

[Brian Holcombe]

Depending on the specific species yellow pine may be a little more or a little less stiff than white oak. Either way they are both similar in stiffness though white oak is considerably harder.

Do you ever wish that your 3" oak slab was thicker?

If it were a stand alone bench I would prefer thicker but as a bench that I move a big oak slab is enough work for my 150lbs frame. I believe it weights 72lbs, while I dont lug it around often, I have to flip it up onto my workbench on occasion.

I like the look of quartered grain, and the orientation in that manner will be more resistance to flexing but considerably easier to damage. You may take care with s brand new bench but they’re not brand new forever so the harder wearing surface is preferable in my opinion.

A planed surface is a very durable surface, it can be cleaned with ease, its smooth but not slick and helps the surface to resist damage from water. This is just my opinion, but I feel that if you are to finish a bench the best area to finish is the end grain, everything else can just be left finish planed.

A bench is a working surface, adding a finish to it just makes life more difficult when working on it. I think you all have seen enough of my shop that I don't ascribe to the 'lived-in' look, but for a workbench, I firmly believe in finish planing and living with it. I leave the saw cuts and accidental chops, they're not criminal at my workbench.

[Patrick Chase]

Such a sweeping statement writing off the use of linseed oil as a worthless wood finish, is to say the least a bold move in the face of the thousand year history it has going back to the Turks who were using it for that and more.

Cutting tools made from chipped pieces of flint had a much longer history than that, so are you going to toss all of your steel woodworking tools and go back to the stone age?

Stan's point is that BLO is obsolete in the same sense that chipped flint is obsolete. There's no practical reason to use BLO to protect wood now that we have better options (BLO can still be useful as a sort of stain to get a specific look), just as there's no reason to use flint now that we have steel.

[Pat Barry]

I wonder how the bench-top finishers are thinking about the holding function the bench top itself fulfills and how a finish or no finish impacts on that function. Coating the surface with wax seems to completely negate the idea that the bench top itself is meant to do a significant amount of the holding rather than relying on the clamping rig-up 100 percent, eventually over taxing any and all clamps, vices, hold-fasts, so on and so on.
I don't do any work such as planing for example where I am relying on the friction from the bench top to provide holding power. That's what bench dogs and or the vise are for in my work. I also use my bench frequently as an outfeed table for my table saw and I appreciate the top being a bit slick for that purpose. Like I mentioned, the glue cleanup is super easy, and I have not noticed any buildup of dirt / grime as being attracted by the wax, after all, the wax is / was buffed out. It might be that a simple BLO application would provide these same benefits.

[Stanley Covington]

I wonder how the bench-top finishers are thinking about the holding function the bench top itself fulfills and how a finish or no finish impacts on that function. Coating the surface with wax seems to completely negate the idea that the bench top itself is meant to do a significant amount of the holding rather than relying on the clamping rig-up 100 percent, eventually over taxing any and all clamps, vices, hold-fasts, so on and so on.

Don't use beeswax or furniture wax. Use FLOOR WAX, for Pete's sake. It is non-slip, and actually INCREASES FRICTION between the benchtop and workpiece. It is not sticky, and does not attract dirt or grime, despite what the inexperienced blithely claim.

[ernest dubois]

Don't use beeswax or furniture wax. Use FLOOR WAX, for Pete's sake. It is non-slip, and actually INCREASES FRICTION between the benchtop and workpiece. It is not sticky, and does not attract dirt or grime, despite what the inexperienced blithely claim.
It's true, I never even had the thought entering my head of coating my workbench top with floor wax.

[ernest dubois]

I don't do any work such as planing for example where I am relying on the friction from the bench top to provide holding power. That's what bench dogs and or the vise are for in my work.
You do, you just don't realize it, that is as long as your bench top is maintained, if it's not and your vices and dogs are overburdened as a result that's a problem I can't help you with.

[ernest dubois]

Cutting tools made from chipped pieces of flint had a much longer history than that, so are you going to toss all of your steel woodworking tools and go back to the stone age?

Stan's point is that BLO is obsolete in the same sense that chipped flint is obsolete. There's no practical reason to use BLO to protect wood now that we have better options (BLO can still be useful as a sort of stain to get a specific look), just as there's no reason to use flint now that we have steel.
What is there to say?

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I have been using trewax on my floors. Definitely not slippery, but makes it much easier to clean up spills. Have not used it on the bench or tools. It does have a much lower odor than Johnson’s.

[Patrick Chase]

What is there to say?

Well, if you read carefully I said "no practical reason to use BLO to protect wood" (emphasis added retroactively), so there is actually quite a bit to say.

We finish wood for both appearance and protection, with different weightings between the two depending on the piece and the user. I actually use BLO and finish some pieces in BLO, but I do so in full knowledge that I am doing so purely to achieve a desired appearance, because BLO is basically worthless (and strictly inferior to modern options) as a protectant.

Based on Stan's references to "sickly yellow look" I think that he doesn't much prefer BLO's appearance either, so for him there's no reason to use it at all :-).

[Stanley Covington]

Well, if you read carefully I said "no practical reason to use BLO to protect wood" (emphasis added retroactively), so there is actually quite a bit to say.

We finish wood for both appearance and protection, with different weightings between the two depending on the piece and the user. I actually use BLO and finish some pieces in BLO, but I do so in full knowledge that I am doing so purely to achieve a desired appearance, because BLO is basically worthless (and strictly inferior to modern options) as a protectant.

Based on Stan's references to "sickly yellow look" I think that he doesn't much prefer BLO's appearance either, so for him there's no reason to use it at all :-).

Yea verily.

And don't forget the stink. Ever finish a cabinet's or chest's interior with BLO? The stink seems to last forever.

It continues to attract dust for months, too.

I have nothing wrong with planing some varieties of wood smooth and leaving it unfinished, even if exposed to the weather, in many applications. I have plenty of wood like that in my home. Of course, a quality finish can protect the wood and/or change/improve the appearance. But BLO does neither. Why bother?

I know guys who collect and even make flint tools and weapons for historical hobby purposes, but none of them commute to work in an oxcart or use BLO on their wood.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Update 2:

Did some more precise measuring today to see just how wide each subsequent board would be if I ripped the big boards into three pieces. They are barely over 9" wide now so by the time I rip them, do some more dimensioning, laminate, then ultimately flatten the bench top I would end up with under 3" of thickness. At this point, me not being expertly efficient with hand planes and dimensioning, I often end up having to take more off than I anticipate to flatten a board and I often end up with less thickness than I originally thought I could get. So with that in mind and not much extra wood to waste I know I wouldn't be able to squeeze 3" of thickness out of a benchtop.

When debating between 3" and 3-1/2" thickness for the top I did not take all that into consideration, and because I was on the fence about 3" being thick enough I'm gonna throw that idea out and just stick with 3-1/2" thickness. I'll only be able to rip each board once so it'll take more boards to make the top but oh well. I think that overdoing things is generally better than the opposite, and I'd rather my benchtop be a little too thick than the other way around. So. now that I've made that decision, I had to get another board because I wouldn't have enough to make a benchtop wider than 12". Lucky for me the guy who I got this stuff from had an awesome 8"x4"x80" beam. Shame he didn't have more beams that size otherwise I woulda made the whole top out of just 2 pieces but that's another story.

Anyhow, next decision to make...should I leave this beam its full width or should I rip it up to make boards that are the same dimension as the rest of the pieces that will make up the top? If I leave the beam it'll probably end up a little over 3-1/2" thick after planing which would be about perfect. The benchtop would then be made up of that beam and 4 other boards that would be 2" wide each. Would it matter where in the lamination sequence I put the slab? It might be aesthetically most pleasing to put 2 2" boards on each side so that the slab ended up in the middle of the top but perhaps there is some reason (related to dimensional stability) to keep the slab on one end and the 4 2" boards all laminated together on the other side.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think I’d just keep laminating as you are currently, one beam in the center is s bit strange imo.

[Warren Mickley]

After reading comments about linseed oil in this thread last week, I was thinking they did not jibe with my own experience.

I have used boiled linseed oil occasionally for many years. Although I bought my first quart in 1964, I have probably used less than a gallon altogether. However, when respondents start talking about no protection at all, I am wondering what they are doing.

I found a surface that I coated with linseed oil in 1974. It has not had any treatment since, never waxed. Water on the surface evaporated without penetrating. I then took a piece of birch, planed it and coated it with oil and let it sit for a few days. Water sitting on the surface evaporates rather than penetrates. The idea that people put it on wood in the 18th century and never noticed that it did not work, just does not hold water.

[Stanley Covington]

After reading comments about linseed oil in this thread last week, I was thinking they did not jibe with my own experience.

I have used boiled linseed oil occasionally for many years. Although I bought my first quart in 1964, I have probably used less than a gallon altogether. However, when respondents start talking about no protection at all, I am wondering what they are doing.

I found a surface that I coated with linseed oil in 1974. It has not had any treatment since, never waxed. Water on the surface evaporated without penetrating. I then took a piece of birch, planed it and coated it with oil and let it sit for a few days. Water sitting on the surface evaporates rather than penetrates. The idea that people put it on wood in the 18th century and never noticed that it did not work, just does not hold water.

The BOL discussion centered on its ability to protect laminated wood, like a benchtop or glulams, from damage when exposed to water and weather long-term. This of course is not typically the case for interior woodwork or even benchtops in most cases. The point is that, while BLO is fine for finishing one's workbench, it has limitations.

[ernest dubois]

I was in on that discussion so feel somewhat addressed by the query from Warren Mickley. Without making a provocation at all, it's a road I don't wish to back track unless there is some pointed and specific use where something sensible could be said, that as a user - I have liters and liters, (gallons and gallons) pressed just up the road by the flax farmer for me and stored up which I dip into regularly - I had some knowledge/experience concerning.

[Phil Mueller]

I agree Stan. I have one cherry sofa table (sits between the sofa and wall) that was left unfinished. I was planning to finish it once the weather warmed up...that was about 3 years ago. Has now warmed to a nice medium brown and seems fine just as it is.

[Patrick Chase]

The BOL discussion centered on its ability to protect laminated wood, like a benchtop or glulams, from damage when exposed to water and weather long-term. This of course is not typically the case for interior woodwork or even benchtops in most cases. The point is that, while BLO is fine for finishing one's workbench, it has limitations.

Yes, I'll admit to exaggerating a bit in the heat of the argument when I said "basically worthless". BLO clearly does *something*, and they used it in the 18th century because it was the best practical option at the time.

Stuff that I've finished with BLO and Tung oil hasn't held up nearly as well as similar objects that were finished more along the lines of Stanley's gunstock/benchtop technique. By a similar token, it's interesting to note how much oil-finished 18th Century furniture ended up getting shellacked at the very first opportunity.

[Pat Barry]

I wouldn't want any fine furniture to be unfinished. Fingerprints, spills, water spots, wear, etc all will ruin the piece. That's a primary reason for finish and BLO does well, not perfect, but far better than bare wood.

[Warren Mickley]

Yes, I'll admit to exaggerating a bit in the heat of the argument when I said "basically worthless". BLO clearly does *something*, and they used it in the 18th century because it was the best practical option at the time.

Stuff that I've finished with BLO and Tung oil hasn't held up nearly as well as similar objects that were finished more along the lines of Stanley's gunstock/benchtop technique. By a similar token, it's interesting to note how much oil-finished 18th Century furniture ended up getting shellacked at the very first opportunity.

Shellac was widely available in the 17th century. It is mentioned in Diderot and Roubo. It became fashionable for furniture at the beginning of the 19th century and was applied to old 18th century furniture at that time, not "at the very first opportunity".

In my experience linseed oil does not need to be replenished annually, does not attract dust, and does not continually darken over time. Recent analysis has suggested that Stradivari used linseed oil as a first coat.

I once read on another forum that linseed oil would turn black over time. I went right upstairs to check on a piece of furniture I made in 1981. When I asked the fellow (a lawyer) what century it would be when it turned black, he suggested that I was not welcome on that forum.

[steven c newman]

Oh, I forgot..there iS a saw bench on my back patio, has stayed out year round in all kinds of weather.....out of Pine, no less...finish? NONE. never had, never will. Hasn't needed it. do you want a picture? And, it is still in use, BTW.

[Stanley Covington]

Oh, I forgot..there iS a saw bench on my back patio, has stayed out year round in all kinds of weather.....out of Pine, no less...finish? NONE. never had, never will. Hasn't needed it. do you want a picture? And, it is still in use, BTW.

Thanks Steven. Sincerely. Good to know. A picture would be nice.

Is it abandoned on the porch, or do you use it there? Does it get wet when it rains/snows?

Do you think it would have benefited from a BLO finish?

[Phil Mueller]

Just watched an interesting video on traditional french polishing. The instructor (sorry, can’t remember his name...1000 videos on french polishing), claimed that original french polishing was done by first burnishing the wood with a straw bundle, grain was filled with wax, and then polished out with a spit shine.

His point, as may be related to BLO and other historical furniture finishes, is that furniture builders back then needed to generate volume to make a living. Quick, easy, fast finishes were desired. Doesn’t mean even they believed it was the most protective or durable, just looked reasonably good.

These historic finishes tend to produce a reasonably good look with a minimal amount of trial and error. As a hobbyist, I’ve graduated to these, only for that reason. I have no doubt modern finishes are more durable.

[Warren Mickley]

Just watched an interesting video on traditional french polishing. The instructor (sorry, can’t remember his name...1000 videos on french polishing), claimed that original french polishing was done by first burnishing the wood with a straw bundle, grain was filled with wax, and then polished out with a spit shine.

His point, as may be related to BLO and other historical furniture finishes, is that furniture builders back then needed to generate volume to make a living. Quick, easy, fast finishes were desired. Doesn’t mean even they believed it was the most protective or durable, just looked reasonably good.

These historic finishes tend to produce a reasonably good look with a minimal amount of trial and error. As a hobbyist, I’ve graduated to these, only for that reason. I have no doubt modern finishes are more durable.

The term French polish originated in the early 19th century and referred to polishing with a spirit varnish (alcohol solvent), either with shellac or a shellac with other gums dissolved in alcohol. It is not a French term.

Andre Roubo, writing in Paris in the mid 18th century mentions wax, linseed oil, spirit varnishes, and oil varnishes.

[Phil Mueller]

That’s what I’ve always considered it to be. I found the video. The guy’s name is Don Williams (Furniture Conservator and Scholar) and throughout the video refers to “the liturature”...but never names it (IIRC) in the video. Claims that the method he is demonstrating would have been used for high style furniture in France and throuout Europe...and, in fact, claims they were not very complimentary of spirit based finishes. What do I know. Another guy on YouTube. Although he does have some credibility as a senior conservator at the Smithsonian.

He’s not claiming it to be the best finish in the world, just that this was the “original” french polish.
If you’re inclined to take a look (Don Williams on Traditional French Polish), I’d be interested in your opinion.

[Brian Holcombe]

Just for photo reference, this is a work from Chateau de Versailles, in the King's apartment. I took these photos with a cell phone (not a current one) so forgive the color distortion, but the works glow brightly. I was immediately impressed by the finish, but the tour guides did not provide information to detail the finishes for furniture works. I'm glad to learn here of what these finishes may consist of, as I had assumed them to be shellac.

I don't believe we were allowed photos of the roll top desk which is most famous.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/IMG_0284.jpg

[steven c newman]

There is no room to use it in the shop. I use it to cut larger items down to size, so they can fit into the shop.

There is a painted piece of plywood attached to the top....sheds water very nicely. I can easily remove that as needed.
382417
When it was brand new.
382418
While in use last year, when I needed plywood for the back of a Pantry cupboard Project. When I was done, that blue tub was placed back on top of the saw bench.

Have sanded down rusty items on it, have painted cleaned up items on it...stood on it to change the light bulb in the back porch light.

Never added a finish....never will...

[Stanley Covington]

There is no room to use it in the shop. I use it to cut larger items down to size, so they can fit into the shop.

There is a painted piece of plywood attached to the top....sheds water very nicely. I can easily remove that as needed.
382417
When it was brand new.
382418
While in use last year, when I needed plywood for the back of a Pantry cupboard Project. When I was done, that blue tub was placed back on top of the saw bench.

Have sanded down rusty items on it, have painted cleaned up items on it...stood on it to change the light bulb in the back porch light.

Never added a finish....never will...

Thanks for the pictures. A nice useful sawbench.

Stan

[Prashun Patel]

No more personal attacks, direct or veiled.

I butchered this thread with edits, but there it is.

[ernest dubois]

No more personal attacks, direct or veiled.

I butchered this thread with edits, but there it is.
It this to say we are not reading what was written but a moderated version?:)

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks for posting the picture from Versailles, Brian. It is kind of gaudy, but I still find it touching how much care and artistry went into this furniture. I would expect this stuff was finished with a spirit varnish. It was perhaps brushed on and abraded with rottenstone or similar for a polished finish. Or it coould be French polished with the spirit varnish.

Early spirit varnishes tended to have several different resins. Roubo's formula for fine varnish had three resins: sandarac, mastic and elemi. Sandarac was known for being extremely clear and it could be that shellac was too tinted at that time. Today these other resins are much more expensive than shellac and are used only in special work.

French polish is a spirit varnish applied with a pad in many very thin coats. Some extend the term to all solvent release varnishes that are similarly applied, which I think is fair. Applying wax with a polissoir made of rush is a polish and it is a French technique, but I would not call it French polish. A dog panting in July is a hot dog, but you would not put mustard on it.

[Pat Barry]

Just for photo reference, this is a work from Chateau de Versailles, in the King's apartment. I took these photos with a cell phone (not a current one) so forgive the color distortion, but the works glow brightly. I was immediately impressed by the finish, but the tour guides did not provide information to detail the finishes for furniture works. I'm glad to learn here of what these finishes may consist of, as I had assumed them to be shellac.

I don't believe we were allowed photos of the roll top desk which is most famous.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/IMG_0284.jpg
Is the top on that desk leather? It sure looks like it from tje photo. It looks like that desk was in front of a window and saw a 100 years of sunshine without protection. Tje front in the other hand still looks fabulous and I suspect it was in the shade of the top.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks for posting the picture from Versailles, Brian. It is kind of gaudy, but I still find it touching how much care and artistry went into this furniture. I would expect this stuff was finished with a spirit varnish. It was perhaps brushed on and abraded with rottenstone or similar for a polished finish. Or it coould be French polished with the spirit varnish.

Early spirit varnishes tended to have several different resins. Roubo's formula for fine varnish had three resins: sandarac, mastic and elemi. Sandarac was known for being extremely clear and it could be that shellac was too tinted at that time. Today these other resins are much more expensive than shellac and are used only in special work.

French polish is a spirit varnish applied with a pad in many very thin coats. Some extend the term to all solvent release varnishes that are similarly applied, which I think is fair. Applying wax with a polissoir made of rush is a polish and it is a French technique, but I would not call it French polish. A dog panting in July is a hot dog, but you would not put mustard on it.

Hah! That last line is something I will have to store for later use. :D

Thanks Warren, I appreciate the details on the varnish. Under careful inspection I did notice that all of the finishes were in fine shape but I was unsure if it were because they remained in good keeping or if they were restored. The museum staff did mention that they had difficulties reacquiring the furniture pieces over time that had gone missing (after the French Revolution if I remember correctly) so I had assumed at the time that they had been restored and that the finishes might be recent.

[Brian Holcombe]

Is the top on that desk leather? It sure looks like it from tje photo. It looks like that desk was in front of a window and saw a 100 years of sunshine without protection. Tje front in the other hand still looks fabulous and I suspect it was in the shade of the top.

If it's the original leather than it's from 1745, and who knows what it's seen.

[Stanley Covington]

I have always been impressed with this style of furniture, because the metalworker's art dominates everything so entirely. Its like the wood is just there as a place to attach metal.

[ernest dubois]

I have pulled down an old bottle of shellac finish from off the shelf, one I picked up at G.Bachet 19-21 rue Claude Tillier in Paris some years back, and looking at the label I read, Vernis gomme laque, Blonde. It's a good source to follow up on what we call, French Polish, a term dating to 1820 or so from a book written in English by the French ébéniste and pretty clearly referring to shellac having been dissolved in alcohol applied with a rubber in multiple layers, (up to 150). I would be willing to bet this is the finish on old Louis XIV's desk there.

[Warren Mickley]

I have pulled down an old bottle of shellac finish from off the shelf, one I picked up at G.Bachet 19-21 rue Claude Tillier in Paris some years back, and looking at the label I read, Vernis gomme laque, Blonde. It's a good source to follow up on what we call, French Polish, a term dating to 1820 or so from a book written in English by the French ébéniste and pretty clearly referring to shellac having been dissolved in alcohol applied with a rubber in multiple layers, (up to 150). I would be willing to bet this is the finish on old Louis XIV's desk there.

As I mentioned above, the French polish term seems to have originated in the early 1800's. There are lots of references 1810 to 1840, but I would be very interested if you found a reference that predated say 1790. Or if you found reference to this type of finishing in Diderot or Roubo (mid-18th century)

On the other hand, it would not surprise me to find that this 18th century writing table was finished with a spirit varnish and that it was later spruced up with some small amount French polishing on top. When people trumpet the superiority of modern finishes, you have to wonder if they have experience with repair and renewal of these finishes.

[ernest dubois]

Just vagueness in terms of references, shellac known in Europe from the 16th century and then the early 19th century mentions of the specific method. But no, nothing specific for that time frame just the thought that during the time of LouisXIV the crafts are flourishing and innovative and it can be seen as sort of a pinnacle of development. Not that, you know, I'd want to paint too rosy a picture.:)

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Next order of business: laminating pieces to make the legs. I ripped and crosscut all the necessary pieces to rough dimension and it's all planed (power-planed, not hand planed). There are a couple pieces with slight bows that a thickness planer wouldn't remove, so here's a good learning opportunity.
382735382736

The pictures above are of the worst offender--about 3/32" of gap between the pieces. With decent clamps I could certainly get this gap to close up but at what risk? Would the stress induced by clamping a bowed board flat be a problem?

Thus far in my woodworking experience I've taken the "better safe than sorry" route and tried to get all the pieces to mate as well as possible before laminating. I figured the less stress in the wood the more stable it might be in the long term. But this takes time and becomes more and more difficult as components become longer. It also requires, in cases like this, a decent amount of thickness to be removed.

How big of a bow would you tolerate in pieces that are gonna be laminated?

Matt

[Prashun Patel]

That gap is a little big for me. I aim for the pieces to draw seamlessly together by hand. A little bit of force by my fingers is tolerable, but if additional jointing is possible, I will do that until it's good.

Take care to keep your edges square as you bring them into flat.

Challenge yourself to be a little more perfect here.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Those laminates look a bit thick for that kind of gap. Can you squeeze the gap closed with your hands? That is the test I would use.

My bench is made of 1.5" thick laminates. I planed them all with a smooth plane until I got continuous shavings, but they would still have some bow. Skip planing by hand basically. Then I clamped all the laminates together in the correct order/orientation and check the fit. I had to make a few corrections to close some gaps. Then it's ready for glue up. Has held together fine so far.

[Pat Barry]

Next order of business: laminating pieces to make the legs. I ripped and crosscut all the necessary pieces to rough dimension and it's all planed (power-planed, not hand planed). There are a couple pieces with slight bows that a thickness planer wouldn't remove, so here's a good learning opportunity.
382735382736

The pictures above are of the worst offender--about 3/32" of gap between the pieces. With decent clamps I could certainly get this gap to close up but at what risk? Would the stress induced by clamping a bowed board flat be a problem?

Thus far in my woodworking experience I've taken the "better safe than sorry" route and tried to get all the pieces to mate as well as possible before laminating. I figured the less stress in the wood the more stable it might be in the long term. But this takes time and becomes more and more difficult as components become longer. It also requires, in cases like this, a decent amount of thickness to be removed.

How big of a bow would you tolerate in pieces that are gonna be laminated?

Matt
The amount of tolerable bow is inversely related to the force required to close the bow and how they respond. If you can close it with light pressure and the two boards straighten together then ok. If one conforms to the other and they are not straight together you have more work to do. If it takes much clamping pressure then you have more work to do.

[Brian Holcombe]

Even if it is close-able the result will either be a very thick glue line or open seam.