Why does aggressive chisel prep make such a big difference?

[John C Cox]

Hey guys,

TLDR: If you are having problems with poor chisel performance - try aggressively flattening the backs and working the bevels on coarse PSA sandpaper before you write them off...

21 chisels in... 19 have seen large improvements in edge holding and cutting wood after aggressive back and bevel prep.. 1 worked fine with minimum prep. 1 was a dud and was exchanged for one of the 19 that saw significant improvement.

Why? Why does this make such a big difference in performance?

Prior to this - I was never one to advocate aggressive back flattening or really going at the bevels.... Just clean up the back enough so there was a bit of polished chisel at the bevel... Sharpen up the bevel and go..... But I was also unhappy with chisel performance... The edges would roll or fold when paring spruce end grain - and certainly when chopping mahogany and cherry end grain... And I just couldn't get good work out of them.... Obviously I must have gotten bad chisels...

I was puzzling over how many Youtubers and fellow Creekers could get a lot of work out of So many chisels yet somehow I couldn't...

Well.. I stumbled into grinding the heck out of the backs of a set of Two Cherries that seemed like they all had humps in the back.. And the more I ground - the better they cut... When I stopped - they really go through wood like crazy...

So I tried the Aldi chisels that were marginal - they wouldn't pare spruce... Wouldn't chop mahogany... Same thing - aggressively flatten the backs and work the bevels on 100 grit PSA and now they do... Same bevel angle as before - now they cut....

Same for Woodcraft green handle chisels, Wood River socket chisels, and my Pfeil...

19 chisels.... All saw major improvement... All cut very well now without edge trauma.....

The new Marples was the only one that passed the same tests without major prep... Go figure....

What's going on here guys? Why - with a range of $7/set through $45/each - all see huge improvement with very aggressive back and bevel prep vs "standard" prep...

[Bill Houghton]

The cutting edge on a tool is the meeting of two surfaces at an angle. The closer the surfaces are to flat and straight, the more likely the meeting point will be an actual edge. And, the more it's an actual edge, the longer it's likely to last. Plus, a lot of people find that new chisels are imperfect in their temper for the first 1/8" or so. Plus plus, a flat back will register on the wood more accurately.

Why do you have so many different bench chisels? Were you frustratedly seeking chisels that would cut better than what you were seeing?

[Stewie Simpson]

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg (http://s1009.photobucket.com/user/swagman001/media/WM%20Marples%20Firmer%20Chisels/_DSC0193_zpsmcdgjr5j.jpg.html)

I had a close look at the backs of 2 sets of vintage W.M Marples Firmer Chisels that I purchased from the U.K a number of years ago. None of them have totally flat backs. All showed signs of their original concavity until you get to an 1" to 1 1/2" from the cutting edge. At that point they appear to straighten out. Those that have seen more constant use over the years (based on their remaining length) also showed signs of being slightly toed up within this same area.

[John C Cox]

That's a beautiful set of chisels you have there.

[Jim Koepke]

21 chisels in... 19 have seen large improvements in edge holding and cutting...


Why do you have so many different bench chisels?

Some might say 21 is just getting started. There are likely that many in my drawer of 'beaters and loaners.'

Getting back to aggressive chisel preparation makes some sense. All but a few of my chisels were purchased second hand. Many of them needed work on the backs to remove rust and pits.

Maybe someone knows more about the metallurgy of heat treating and is it just the bevel area that decarbonizes?

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Since Harvey came through, I have not seen my leather chisel roll full of chisels. I will look for them tomorrow in the plastic tubs full of my tools.
As to why chisels need to be prepped for use, they need to be mirror flat on the backs and scalpel sharp. They do not come that way,
You should be able to create translucent shavings with a chisel. See the link below.

https://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Chisel

[Stanley Covington]

Buy right buy once.

I grew up in a very frugal home. My father was the youngest of 8 children born to plasterer in a desperately poor part of the US during the second year of the 10 year Great Depression. Eating at his father's house was not guaranteed some days. Dad worked as a carpenter and cabinetmaker. We did not buy new things when I was a child. The first new woodworking tool I owned was a Disston saw I bought from Monkey Wards when I was 21 to make furniture from discarded concrete formwork lumber for my wife and baby. My point is that the virtue of buying things used, repairing them, and getting by was ingrained into me as an infant.

It can be fun to buy beaters and refurbish them. It feels good to make useful again something that was unused, unappreciated, and practically discarded, especially when it cost less than lunch. The frugal gene I inherited from my father smiles every time. But as the years raced by, I came to realize that a few high-quality tools that don't need to be fixed are a better investment of time and money than buckets of run-down chisels that were mediocre even when new.

This will offend some, but for others like me who have already passed through the collecting phase and just need to get the job done, dammit, quality and usable condition at the time of purchase are more important than cheap price and scratching the tinkering bone. I have dozens of old chisels I bought at flea markets, yard sales, and antique stores that I spent a lot of time and effort fixing. It was satisfying for the moment, but looking back and realizing that all but a few of those chisels were nothing to brag of even when new, and that I use only one of those chisels now, and that the rest will all end up back in flea markets after I die, I can see it was a waste.

Many will read these words and scoff. But remember them 30 years from now.

Buy right, buy once.

[Jim Koepke]

But as the years raced by, I came to realize that a few high-quality tools that don't need to be fixed are a better investment of time and money than buckets of run-down chisels that were mediocre even when new.

Did purchasing and rehabilitating an old tool help you to earn the funds to purchase a better tool?

During my early years of woodworking, if my purchases were limited to buying only high end tools, nothing would have been purchased. Some of the lesser tools have helped me to earn income. Some were purchased to be rehabilitated and sold to earn more money to purchase better tools.

No two people have the same financial or time considerations.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hey guys,

TLDR: If you are having problems with poor chisel performance - try aggressively flattening the backs and working the bevels on coarse PSA sandpaper before you write them off...

21 chisels in... 19 have seen large improvements in edge holding and cutting wood after aggressive back and bevel prep.. 1 worked fine with minimum prep. 1 was a dud and was exchanged for one of the 19 that saw significant improvement.

Why? Why does this make such a big difference in performance?

...

John, are you going by a different name on another forum? :)

I don't think that others here are getting what you are trying to say, that is, by grinding back the chisel back, the steel that remains is harder than the outer surface that was removed. And that this enables the edge retention to significantly improve. Is that correct? Will you say why?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Did purchasing and rehabilitating an old tool help you to earn the funds to purchase a better tool?

During my early years of woodworking, if my purchases were limited to buying only high end tools, nothing would have been purchased. Some of the lesser tools have helped me to earn income. Some were purchased to be rehabilitated and sold to earn more money to purchase better tools.

No two people have the same financial or time considerations.

jtk

Point taken.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

John, if I understand you right, your point is that the whole back of the chisel needs to be completely flat ? I thought it would be enough with a cuple of centimeters that are closest to the edge ?

[Derek Cohen]

Lasse, that is not what John is saying, if I understand correctly. It is his thread - I will leave it to him to explain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

John, how much steel are you actually removing? I suspect it can't be very much if you are just doing this by hand on sandpaper. It would take quite a lot of effort to remove much steel by hand with that method. I suspect that it's just a few thou.

[Stewie Simpson]

To better understand John's methodology, I have included the comments he posted within the Narex Chisels thread.


I would go at the backs rather than the bevel.

Most likely they have a decarburized layer from heat treatment that was not ground off - because they don't grind after heat treatment.

And most likely - the decarbed layer has been removed from the bulk of the bevel - the only remaining part is the back... Which forms the sharp part of the bevel. ;)

So dig out your surface plate and rolls of 100, 180, and 325 grit PSA sandpaper and go to battle. Take off at least 1/64". 1/32" would be better - but yes - I do understand it's a bear for that much steel. You know it's time to replace the paper as soon as the cut slows down - and it does take a bunch... Once you get past 325 - switch back to your stones as per usual back flattening procedure.

Then circle back around, resharpen the bevels and off you go....

I have done this to 2 sets of chisels now in the last few days - and the difference is night and day. It's like a completely different chisel...


The point wasn't specifically about austempering or alloys and whatnot - but rather so you understand that they do not do ANY grinding AFTER hardening...

That means there will be a decarbed layer left behind.....

Decarbed steel is mush compared with the non-decarbed steel.. And doesn't hold an edge worth a lick....

And you must grind that decarbed layer off the back if you want to get anything useful out of the chisel..

As to which companies are doing this now.... From the new production chisels I have received - all of them except Lie Nielsen and Veritas/LV. Perhaps Pfeil... Probably it's not a problem for them because they are grinding the decarbed layer off during production...

But my new Two Cherries got a lot better after I really ground the backs hard. And my suspicion is that when you hear "Soft gummy German steel" in the same sentence as Two Cherries - it's a decarb problem that will be solved by an aggressive go at the back on the surface plate.

The Aldi chisels improved significantly - I kept wondering how in the world those YouTubers were able to get so much work out of them.... Grind 1/64" to 1/32" off the back and they are a different tool....

[Tony Zaffuto]

i'm puzzled with the excess back prep, as I doubt there are any modern makers that do not take care to prevent decarbing. I'm not a tool maker or a metallurgist, though I do employ people of that ilk in my powder metal plant. Modern tooling can be heated treated with a variety of surface protectants, including protective atmospheres or foil wrap. Tools made at my plant (punches, usually A2 or S7), are ground close to finish, and after heat treat & draw, are given a scant finish gring (few thou.) and polish.

Punches made are then subjected to cycles of anywhere of a few hundred to a hundred thousand. Now I may be comparing apples to oranges, since our punches are not cutting edges. My gut feeling is what is happening, is after heat treat & draw, overheating is occurring during the grinding of the bevel, and removal of bevel and flat is needed to reach good steel.

Through the years, I experienced a similar issue with a Hirsch, an Ashlet Iles and a Sorby paring. All were mush on the cutting edge, but working the bevel back an 1/8" to 1/4" made each a different chisel. The Sorby paring chisels have a bad rep as being soft, but again my contention is that the bevels were close to blued when ground. After working the Sorby back, even with a 20 degree paring bevel, edge retention in cherry, white oak & walnut is way more than acceptable.

[John C Cox]

I don't think that others here are getting what you are trying to say, that is, by grinding back the chisel back, the steel that remains is harder than the outer surface that was removed. And that this enables the edge retention to significantly improve. Is that correct? Will you say why?

All I am saying is that all of them cut better when they got past some "threshold" of chisel prep... It was very noticable - both on the stones and on wood...

As to the cause of it... I am not convinced it is specifically decarb... For several reasons... Patrick makes good points in the other thread about alloys used to reduce decarb problems... I noticed the same thing as he mentioned in my backyard chisel experiments... There was no noticable decarb layer to deal that persisted beyond simple adequate flattening and sharpening... I had no decarb problems even with a Mapp gas torch..

And I am not convinced it is from "Flattening" the back.... I think flattening the back has a side effect on whatever was hurting edge durability.. But I doubt "Flat" is the cause of better performance....

What I did notice last night is that when I re-honed the bevel on my Worksharp - the problem came back when chopping mahogany and eucalyptus - though not when paring mahogany, spruce, or eucalyptus end grain.....

Although it's nowhere near the extent of previous - it still feels like I went backwards somewhere.. It could just be my expectations, though.....

Do you guys prep separate chisels for chopping? If so - how? Is it possible that a finely honed and polished edge performs worse chopping than a fairly coarse edge?

[steven c newman]

Might be be more to do with the angle of the bevel....chopping takes about..30-35 degrees, paring is around 20...and 20 is not good for chopping..too thin.

[Philipp Jaindl]

All I am saying is that all of them cut better when they got past some "threshold" of chisel prep... It was very noticable - both on the stones and on wood...

As to the cause of it... I am not convinced it is specifically decarb... For several reasons... Patrick makes good points in the other thread about alloys used to reduce decarb problems... I noticed the same thing as he mentioned in my backyard chisel experiments... There was no noticable decarb layer to deal that persisted beyond simple adequate flattening and sharpening... I had no decarb problems even with a Mapp gas torch..

And I am not convinced it is from "Flattening" the back.... I think flattening the back has a side effect on whatever was hurting edge durability.. But I doubt "Flat" is the cause of better performance....

What I did notice last night is that when I re-honed the bevel on my Worksharp - the problem came back when chopping mahogany and eucalyptus - though not when paring mahogany, spruce, or eucalyptus end grain.....

Although it's nowhere near the extent of previous - it still feels like I went backwards somewhere.. It could just be my expectations, though.....

Do you guys prep separate chisels for chopping? If so - how? Is it possible that a finely honed and polished edge performs worse chopping than a fairly coarse edge?

Would be interessting to know how you sharpen and with what, Benchstones or just a Grinder/Beltsander? Strop yes or no? Could be for whatever reason you might've ever so slightly rounded over the back at the very edge and simply ground it down to flat again, just a thought.

And yes it is possible for a Polished edge to performe worse then a "coarse" edge with, more or less, micro. serrations, kinda like how a Breadknife bites easier into a Loaf then a mirror polished edge.

[John C Cox]

Would be interessting to know how you sharpen and with what, Benchstones or just a Grinder/Beltsander? Strop yes or no? Could be for whatever reason you might've ever so slightly rounded over the back at the very edge and simply ground it down to flat again, just a thought.

And yes it is possible for a Polished edge to performe worse then a "coarse" edge with, more or less, micro. serrations, kinda like how a Breadknife bites easier into a Loaf then a mirror polished edge.

My typical routine was to use diamond stones for backs and a Worksharp 3000 thru 1000 grit for bevels and then strop the bevel with green chrome. Primary bevel at about 25. Microbevel at 30.

In this go round - I went at the backs with 100 grit PSA on my surface plate. If there was a burr on the bevel - I touched it with the Worksharp.

After I was done - I went back up to 325 grit PSA on the backs. It wasn't till I resharpened the bevel that they quit chopping...

[Patrick Chase]

Do you guys prep separate chisels for chopping? If so - how? Is it possible that a finely honed and polished edge performs worse chopping than a fairly coarse edge?

It would be more accurate to say "separate chisels for paring vs mortises vs everything else", but the answer is basically yes. My paring chisels have lower tip angles than my general-purpose ones and (particularly) my mortise chisels. The specifics vary by width, since I also use higher angles on narrower chisels than wide ones, due to the inevitably higher edge pressures in the former.

I think that for cutting wood a fine and polished edge will always last at least as long as a more coarse one, and often longer. A lot depends on the steel, since coarse-grained, high-carbide steels like D2 and HSS are designed to "run rough". By this I mean that the martensite matrix around the carbides has to "wear back" a bit to expose the carbides and allow them to shoulder the load. That happens all its own, so you won't improve life by starting the edge in a coarse state. By the same token it's also a waste of time to refine such a chisel to a perfect edge, but that's not the same thing as saying that refinement actually reduces edge life.

In contrast homogeneous, fine-grained steels like HCS and white will last longer when honed as sharp as possible. There are no "hard chunks" in those steels to take up the load as the edge recedes, and a duller edge causes higher cutting forces and therefore more wear. Whereas D2 will wear a bit and then stabilize, for the homogeneous steels it's just a vicious cycle as dullness begets higher forces begets more dullness. Your best strategy with those steels is to hone frequently and thereby avoid the serious and more time-consuming damage that comes from chopping on a dull edge.

[Bill McDermott]

Shape before sharp.

I used to get a bit lazy when sharpening and would try to get by with honing... and more honing. When I finally got back to grinding, I rediscovered "sharp". Exploring it a bit, I think it gets back to the basics we all know. I was not refreshing the bevel and creating a wire edge. I think the honing was adding some convex curving to the edge, both top and bottom. Who knows? In any case, this came to mind as I read the OP. In summary, I learned to not don't get lazy.

Now I take some metal off to get the proper shape, then sharp.

[John C Cox]

So it honestly sounds like the folks here are drawing a blank here like I am....

Whatever happened - I want to figure out how I can "turn it on and off".... Once they crossed this mystery threshold - the chisels became quite well behaved on the work - Chopping and end grain paring... It would be very convenient to be able to use cheap miscellaneous chisels for this sort of duty... That will take more experiments - and I am now out of 100 grit PSA..

I have 3 guitars that need binding and the necks carved.. Sharpening and fettling chisels isn't my hobby, more a means to an end.... I need to put this to bed and get back to working on actual wood... ;).

For now - Stanley Fat Max long blade chisels (from the UK) set up with a 35 degree microbevel in my current process seem to do quite well.. (The regular US market fodder Fat Max were just too short..) And so that's probably the logical stopping point for chopping duty for the time being.... They are nominally designed for optimum transmission of shock from "Sledge to Edge" after all aren't they.... ;) ;)

The other cheap chisels will pare end grain spruce nicely at 30 degrees... Which is fine... This all started because my edges wouldn't hold up when trimming guitar brace ends - which are spruce...

[John C Cox]

So I decided to torture an Aldi chisel just to see where it ended up... This is what happened.....

Sharpened at 25 with a 30 microbevel.

1" mahogany end grain and a nice heavy 4lb deadblow mallet....,.
whack! Cut 1/2" deep and about a 0.040" thick shaving.
lightly rolled edge.
Wiped the rolled edge off the back with my X fine diamond and go again...
whack! Cut 3/4" deep and about a 0.040" thick shaving.
Wiped the rolled edge off the back again, stropped the bevel and go again..
whack! Cut all the way through with the same thickness...

After 1/2" of chopping - the micro-roll bevel kinda stabilized... I switched to chopping Lyptus flavored Eucalyptus.. Same thing with initial rolling the edge, flattening the burr on the back, stropping, and it seemed to go fine... All it takes is a light stropping to shave...

So... What's the microbevel now? Who knows... Above 35 degrees.... Convex... I have no way to measure the effects of honing off the rolled burr on the back and going back at it... I chopped a 3/4" square hole in the Lyptus.... The edge holds up fine at wherever....

And so at the end of the day -- It seems like I have arrived at this massive, earth shattering point:
John, buddy - You were way over thinking it... The angles don't matter - cutting wood is what matters.... And it cuts fine. Flatten the back, strop the bevel wherever it ends up and bang away... If it gets bad - grind it back to 35 degrees and off you go...

Save a different chisel for fine paring work..

[Stanley Covington]

I like this approach. Not the repeated rolled edges ( that only shows the steel is too soft) not the incessant stopping (only necessary to deal with too-soft steel) microbevels (difficult to measure/repeat), or 4lb maul (abusive of the poor innocent chisel) but the testing, examination, analysis, conclusions, adjustment, and repetition. Sound methodology.

You should do a similar analysis of your tools in use on the wood you actually cut. In the end, you will find the best angle. 30 degrees is usually a good place to start for striking chisels, but only you can decide.

Stan

[Warren Mickley]

I am not exactly drawing a blank. I think you are getting the performance you are asking for. Everything seems careless and haphazard. You sharpen with some kind of machine. Then you use harsh and coarse abrasives to hone. Then you "whack" on the chisel with a four pound mallet, maybe a maul. People who get high performance from chisels do not treat them like crap.



The angles don't matter - cutting wood is what matters.... And it cuts fine. Flatten the back, strop the bevel wherever it ends up and bang away... If it gets bad - grind it back to 35 degrees and off you go..

This is a recipe for poor performance.

[Todd Stock]

Obviously a case of letting the tool know who the boss is. Treating the chisel like the Snowflake Princess of tools just breeds that millennial attitude that we see everywhere else...pampered, entitled, and clueless. Before you know it, the blade goes full triggered mode when faced with modern abrasives for honing or - indeed - any sort of work to be done.

A little tough love in the form of aggressive prep and a whack or two that the neighbors can hear sets things right and lets a tool know where it fits in the grand scheme of things. Don't surrender to the PC (Prep Correctness) crowd with that nonsense about '...just enough prep to make the tool feel special' - - make that blade EARN the privilege of residing in your shop.

[steven c newman]

Nah...sounds more like the OP was doing a Stress Test on that type/brand of chisel...to see how well an edge will stand up.

[Stanley Covington]

Obviously a case of letting the tool know who the boss is. Treating the chisel like a special snowflake princess just breeds that millennial attitude that we see everywhere else...pampered, entitled, and clueless. Before you know it, the blade goes full triggered mode when faced with modern abrasives for honing or - indeed - any sort of work to be done.

A little tough love in the form of aggressive prep and a whack or two that the neighbors can hear sets things right and lets a tool know where it fits in the grand scheme of things. Don't surrender to the PC (Prep Correctness) crowd...make that blade earn the privilege of residing in your shop.

This one needs some mood music to go with it! Superfly or something similar.

[John C Cox]

I am not exactly drawing a blank. I think you are getting the performance you are asking for. Everything seems careless and haphazard. You sharpen with some kind of machine. Then you use harsh and coarse abrasives to hone. Then you "whack" on the chisel with a four pound mallet, maybe a maul. People who get high performance from chisels do not treat them like crap.

This is a recipe for poor performance.

Care to share how you get high performance out of your Aldi chisels?

[John C Cox]

Lol Todd.... I now have the solution when the Kids start playing their music too loud... Get out the Chisels and the BFH and go chop some Oak Mortise and Tenon joints in the house... And if that doesn't do it - I can drag the Drum Sander and Dust Collector inside. Maybe resaw some 9" thick Rosewood! ;)


Obviously a case of letting the tool know who the boss is. Treating the chisel like the Snowflake Princess of tools just breeds that millennial attitude that we see everywhere else...pampered, entitled, and clueless. Before you know it, the blade goes full triggered mode when faced with modern abrasives for honing or - indeed - any sort of work to be done.

A little tough love in the form of aggressive prep and a whack or two that the neighbors can hear sets things right and lets a tool know where it fits in the grand scheme of things. Don't surrender to the PC (Prep Correctness) crowd with that nonsense about '...just enough prep to make the tool feel special' - - make that blade EARN the privilege of residing in your shop.

[John C Cox]

Nah...sounds more like the OP was doing a Stress Test on that type/brand of chisel...to see how well an edge will stand up.

Really - the bigger question I was trying to answer for myself is "How do you get useful work out of the tool in hand?" That's something I kept hearing out of the "Old Chisels guys". OH - you have to figure out what this old such and such chisel wants and then just do that... Ok - Challenge Accepted!

These Aldi chisels are not "Too Soft" in the sense that they won't do the work... They just wouldn't cooperate with how I wanted to do things.... I have had chisels that were too soft... Tried to get work out of them... The edge never stabilized... Tent pegs.... They had to go..

Once the edge settled in - I chopped a square hole through 3/4" Lyptus, lightly stropped the bevel, shaved hairs off my arm, then pared Douglas Fir end grain.. You can't do that with a chisel that is "too soft"... I have tried.

Are these the best chisels? Nope... Not by a long shot... They are bottom middle of the pack of what I own - which is by no means "Premium"....

[Stanley Covington]

Really - the bigger question I was trying to answer for myself is "How do you get useful work out of the tool in hand?" That's something I kept hearing out of the "Old Chisels guys". OH - you have to figure out what this old such and such chisel wants and then just do that... Ok - Challenge Accepted!

These Aldi chisels are not "Too Soft" in the sense that they won't do the work... They just wouldn't cooperate with how I wanted to do things.... I have had chisels that were too soft... Tried to get work out of them... The edge never stabilized... Tent pegs.... They had to go..

Once the edge settled in - I chopped a square hole through 3/4" Lyptus, lightly stropped the bevel, shaved hairs off my arm, then pared Douglas Fir end grain.. You can't do that with a chisel that is "too soft"... I have tried.

Are these the best chisels? Nope... Not by a long shot... They are bottom middle of the pack of what I own - which is by no means "Premium"....

You wrote that the edge rolled... several times. Clear evidence the steel is too soft to bother with.

[Patrick Chase]

You wrote that the edge rolled... several times. Clear evidence the steel is too soft to bother with.

I think his point was that the tip was too soft as chipped, but removing some material helped. That's not unusual with a tool that hasn't been ground after hardening, which is typical at Aldi's price point. Funky things (not just decarb) happen during HT in exposed corners like the edge of a chisel.

[Brian Holcombe]

Paring end grain is not meaningful, paring it cleanly perhaps. If the soft grain pulls instead of shears then the chisel is dull.

[Jim Koepke]

This one needs some mood music to go with it! Superfly or something similar.

Or maybe Shaft, 'cause it is one mean mother chisel! :eek:


Care to share how you get high performance out of your Aldi chisels?

By leaving them in the store and using the money to buy some better chisels?

Out here on the western side of things we do not have Aldi chisels. At one time my intention was to buy a pack of the Windsor chisels sold at Harbor Freight. Looking at the chisels through the clear blister pack made me change my mind.

Yes, the bargain chisels may be capable of great work. To me the handles on the Windsor chisels looked like they would be painful to my hands. The blades were inconsistent in thickness and grind. The $10 price tag, iirc, seemed to be more than they were really worth. Part of my decision was tempered by my already having more chisels than needed in most sizes.

jtk

[steven c newman]

I just use the Aldi's chisels....not rocket science to get them sharp..
380014
I even just push with my chin on the top of the handle...did not need to whack it around...YMMV
380015
Nor do I use a "drilling" hammer to drive my chisels...

[Roger Nair]

I wonder that John Cox is describing a work hardening process that could harden the chisel or to use John's term "stabilize" the edge. Perhaps John could do an experiment and hammer the bevel before the grinding and honing and get improved hardness from the beginning.

[John C Cox]

Roger buddy - half the forum already hates me because I successfully used Aldi chisels... and the other half argues that It's strictly impossible for me to do what I did... Every single post is like this...

It's really funny to see people go round and round about how it's impossible for me to do what I just did... According to this forum - I do 4 or 5 impossible things every day. I got mad skillz ;) ;) ;)

Go look back at the thread where I posted about re-hardening soft chisels.... Holy cow... You might think it takes a PHD in metallurgy and another in Physics to do something every blacksmith on earth has done for the last 3,000 years daily...

I can't imagine their response if I lightly tapped on some part of the bevel with a hammer.. Nuclear war or something. ;) ;) ;)

[steven c newman]

aka...normal sharpening thread on this site....

[Roger Nair]

The analogy for work hardening comes from my use of a scythe instead of a lawn mower. The European scythe is made from thin steel and the edge is hammered before stoning the edge. Successive curling of the edge might well work harden a milder steel into a harder edge. This may address your original question. By the way, work hardening was well known long before metallurgists showed up, maybe back when found elemental copper was pounded into shape.

[Bruce Haugen]

I think his point was that the tip was too soft as chipped, but removing some material helped. That's not unusual with a tool that hasn't been ground after hardening, which is typical at Aldi's price point. Funky things (not just decarb) happen during HT in exposed corners like the edge of a chisel.

Just a point of clarification: do you think the manufacturer of Aldi’s Chisels grinds the bevels before HT or after?

[Patrick Chase]

Just a point of clarification: do you think the manufacturer of Aldi’s Chisels grinds the bevels before HT or after?

At that price point everybody grinds before HT.

[Bruce Haugen]

At that price point everybody grinds before HT.

And that alone would explain why they’d need so much work after. I know a bunch of custom knife makers, and none grind a final bevel until after HT. ‘Course, that also helps deal with any potential cracking of the very thin edge.

[Stewie Simpson]

There is an interesting comment on page 58 of the book PLANECRAFT;

"Good honing is an art worth taking considerable trouble to perfect, and it goes along way to explaining the old craftsmen's tradition that you don't really get the best out of a blade until you have been using it some time."

This book was 1st published 1934.

[Patrick Chase]

And that alone would explain why they’d need so much work after. I know a bunch of custom knife makers, and none grind a final bevel until after HT. ‘Course, that also helps deal with any potential cracking of the very thin edge.

True, but a lot of low-end consumers don't know any better, and grinding after HT is more expensive both because you have to go slower to limit temperature and because the material is harder.

[Jim Koepke]

Roger buddy - half the forum already hates me because I successfully used Aldi chisels... and the other half argues that It's strictly impossible for me to do what I did... Every single post is like this...

That anyone hates you for getting use from an inexpensive chisel is doubtful at best. For me it is mostly jealousy since the Aldi chisels are not available in my area.

There are a lot of inexpensive chisels in my shop that also work quite well and end up being used regularly.

One of my main preferences for a chisel is that it is a socket chisel. This allows me to make handles that suit my hands and not some manufacturers cost analysis spread sheet.

jtk

[John C Cox]

There is an interesting comment on page 58 of the book PLANECRAFT;

"Good honing is an art worth taking considerable trouble to perfect, and it goes along way to explaining the old craftsmen's tradition that you don't really get the best out of a blade until you have been using it some time."

This book was 1st published 1934.

That's a very good point.

On another forum - one of the discussions took a turn into getting the most out of old tools.. It was interesting to hear the various fellows describe what they do on this or that specific tool for whatever specific duty it excels at... That once you figure out what the particular tool really likes best - you can get a lot of good work out of it.... And it seemed like almost every tool wanted a little different setup and honing strategy...

And the only way you get there is by working with the tool a lot....

[Mike Henderson]

I was working on some antique Swan chisels today and I observed that whether it makes a difference or not, I have to take the back down quite a bit to get past the rust pits that are in old tools.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

Roger buddy - half the forum already hates me because I successfully used Aldi chisels... and the other half argues that It's strictly impossible for me to do what I did... Every single post is like this...

It's really funny to see people go round and round about how it's impossible for me to do what I just did... According to this forum - I do 4 or 5 impossible things every day. I got mad skillz ;) ;) ;)

Go look back at the thread where I posted about re-hardening soft chisels.... Holy cow... You might think it takes a PHD in metallurgy and another in Physics to do something every blacksmith on earth has done for the last 3,000 years daily...

I can't imagine their response if I lightly tapped on some part of the bevel with a hammer.. Nuclear war or something. ;) ;) ;)

I enjoy your experiments John. Sharpening threads just get "testy". Every time.

I get useful work outta my Aldi's too. I have them at 22* and I plan to lower that to about 18*. They work well enough for me. Aside: I keep trying to talk myself into a set of LV or LN chisels - an upgrade to my blue Marples, Aldis and Narex paring - now that I have a fully outfitted kit. I just haven't convinced myself the difference in performance [for me] makes sense. But of course, I keep tryin' to .... :D

Fred

[John C Cox]

On the subject of peening the edges on old scythes - many of those old farm tools were tempered pretty soft so they wouldn't break in use.. And the sharpening procedure often started with peening any dings in the edges back out. It's pretty easy to do with a good peen hammer. You just very carefully and gently work the edge - and all the dings and rolled parts can straighten right back out.... Kinda like what happens when you take a high quality steel to a kitchen knife.. It unrolls all the rolled edges...

Unless the chisels in question went through an Isothermal transformation which turns the Austenite to flexible yet hard Bainite instead of inflexible and chippy Martensite (the sort of quenching and tempering process Patrick describes being used to reduce warp...) - the rolled edges tend to break off instead of bending back.. I don't honestly think anybody has tried tapping back the edge on a cheap chisel... It would probably work if there was significant bainite structure.... and if there was - it might explain why I get rolled edges on a Rc 59-60 chisel... Maybe I need to try steeling these chisels to see if it would straighten the edge..

[Patrick Chase]

Unless the chisels in question went through an Isothermal transformation which turns the Austenite to flexible yet hard Bainite instead of inflexible and chippy Martensite (the sort of quenching and tempering process Patrick describes being used to reduce warp...) - the rolled edges tend to break off instead of bending back.. I don't honestly think anybody has tried tapping back the edge on a cheap chisel... It would probably work if there was significant bainite structure.... and if there was - it might explain why I get rolled edges on a Rc 59-60 chisel... Maybe I need to try steeling these chisels to see if it would straighten the edge..

Narex is the only current maker that has come out and said they use that process (austempering). On the other extreme, if your chisel has logo/size/etc etched on the blade then it's a fair bet that it wasn't austempered.

[John C Cox]

And yet Narex chisels aren't roll marked... Probably laser engraved.... Wouldn't surprise me to find most people are laser engraving that stuff now.. No nasty chemicals to keep up with or dispose.... Or just leaving the blades blank....

The thing is... Narex is basically the only one who really says anything specific in particular about their manufacturing methods... Most everybody else says either nothing or vague marketing talk that could mean anything...

[Mike Henderson]

And yet Narex chisels aren't roll marked... Probably laser engraved.... Wouldn't surprise me to find most people are laser engraving that stuff now.. No nasty chemicals to keep up with or dispose.... Or just leaving the blades blank....

The thing is... Narex is basically the only one who really says anything specific in particular about their manufacturing methods... Most everybody else says either nothing or vague marketing talk that could mean anything...

I went and looked carefully at the Narex chisels that I have. Sure looks like the name, size, etc. is printed. It feels like the printing is raised just a bit from the metal surface.

I could try scraping one of the letters to be sure, but I don't want to do that.

Mike

[Tony Zaffuto]

And yet Narex chisels aren't roll marked... Probably laser engraved.... Wouldn't surprise me to find most people are laser engraving that stuff now.. No nasty chemicals to keep up with or dispose.... Or just leaving the blades blank....

The thing is... Narex is basically the only one who really says anything specific in particular about their manufacturing methods... Most everybody else says either nothing or vague marketing talk that could mean anything...

Don't know if I agree: LN, LV identify their material, as does Ashley Ilies, just to name a few. If you understand the material, then you'll know the methods.

For the record, I don't have any Aldi chisels, though I have a hodge podge of both modern and vintage makes. Sharpening? I learned long ago to pick one method and stick to it. In my case, mine is based on a DVD method from "Tools for Working Wood", made by Maurice Fraser, who, I believe, trained Joel. Works for me, for all the diffrent steels I have. I also don't get too anal about angles, though, that comes with experience, after you learn whar works for the woods you work.

[John Schtrumpf]

For sharpening I learned using "A Guide to Honing and Sharpening" by Maurice Fraser at the Museum of Woodworking Tools:

http://antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html

[Patrick Chase]

And yet Narex chisels aren't roll marked... Probably laser engraved.... Wouldn't surprise me to find most people are laser engraving that stuff now.. No nasty chemicals to keep up with or dispose.... Or just leaving the blades blank....

Nope, Narex are printed with ink. It's underneath the coat of protective varnish. I know this because I generally strip that varnish from my tools, and the printing from some Narex chisels came off with it.

Bahcos are similarly printed (I prepared a set for my dad), which is one of the reasons why I think they may be austempered as well. Bahco bought out Berg, and Berg was known to be doing salt-bath tempering a long time ago, so it isn't that much of a stretch.



The thing is... Narex is basically the only one who really says anything specific in particular about their manufacturing methods... Most everybody else says either nothing or vague marketing talk that could mean anything...

That's probably because it's generally assumed that if you don't say anything then you're using conventional martensitic HT. Note also that you can often tell from the steel - you can't do austempering of a chisel-sized object with plain HCS, and it's uneconomic to do it with air-hardening steels due to the requirement for a long dwell time above the martensite start temperature. It realistically requires an oil-hardening steel like O1 or a custom "salt-hardening" steel as with Narex.

Bainite tops out at Rc59 or so, so that's another "tell".


I went and looked carefully at the Narex chisels that I have. Sure looks like the name, size, etc. is printed. It feels like the printing is raised just a bit from the metal surface.

I could try scraping one of the letters to be sure, but I don't want to do that.

Just soak them with acetone or lacquer thinner. They'll come right off.

[Mike Henderson]

Just soak them with acetone or lacquer thinner. They'll come right off.

I don't want to take the lettering off my Narex chisels so I scratched the "X" in one of them and paint scratched right off. It's definitely printed.

Mike

[John C Cox]

That's probably because it's generally assumed that if you don't say anything then you're using conventional martensitic HT.

It's worse than that my friend... Most people buying chisels care not one whit about heat treatment or alloy so long as the chisel in hand works as expected for the price point... And sometimes providing more information muddies the water..

There are also truth in labelling/advertising requirements... And so if you say something - you have to do it... So they simply don't say it...

For example - I have noticed Stanley has started removing the EN31 alloy designation from their marketing literature for various chisels... At one point -Sheffield made Dynagrip, Fat Max, Bailey, and Stanley Sweethart Socket chisels (and their Dewalt counterparts) all said EN31 alloy.. Now - they have removed the specific alloy designation from almost all of them... Perhaps too many people were asking "Why should I buy these Bailey or Sweethart chisels if the alloy is the same as the Dynagrip or Fat Max I can buy at the local hardware store".... Many people have noted equivalent edge life between these models... Or perhaps they are starting to make alloy changes and didn't want to run afoul of various truth in advertising laws...

[Stanley Covington]

It's worse than that my friend... Most people buying chisels care not one whit about heat treatment or alloy so long as the chisel in hand works as expected for the price point... And sometimes providing more information muddies the water..

There are also truth in labelling/advertising requirements... And so if you say something - you have to do it... So they simply don't say it...

For example - I have noticed Stanley has started removing the EN31 alloy designation from their marketing literature for various chisels... At one point -Sheffield made Dynagrip, Fat Max, Bailey, and Stanley Sweethart Socket chisels (and their Dewalt counterparts) all said EN31 alloy.. Now - they have removed the specific alloy designation from almost all of them... Perhaps too many people were asking "Why should I buy these Bailey or Sweethart chisels if the alloy is the same as the Dynagrip or Fat Max I can buy at the local hardware store".... Many people have noted equivalent edge life between these models... Or perhaps they are starting to make alloy changes and didn't want to run afoul of various truth in advertising laws...

A real problem with having things made in China is that the fabricators will switch the steel you specified for a different steel they have on hand, or a different steel that they can get cheaper than the one you specified. This happens even if you buy the steel yourself and ship it to the factory in China. They will use the supplied/specified steel to fill a different, more profitable order, or truck it off to Uncle Wong's factory down the block, and then replace it with a different steel that they can procure at less cost.

Internal theft at the factories in China is also a contributing factor to this switcheroo, especially in the case where Uncle Wong benefits.

Happens a lot unless you have a QC guy in the factory, do independent testing, and monitor security. An expensive proposition. I know this from direct hands-on experience.

By removing the steel designation, the American/European companies protect themselves from claims from wholesalers and retailers who actually test the steel and discover that what was used it not what was required in the order documentation. 99.9% of consumers can't tell the difference, so instead of rejecting the bad lot, and fighting with the Chinese fabricator, they just sell it. By removing the material designation, they shield themselves from liability, or claims of breach of contract.

This is the actual price uninformed/cheapskate people pay for insisting on the absolute lowest cost for the products they buy.

A sound policy is to never buy anything made in China if the quality of the metal in the product is more important than the outward appearance of the metal.

Reputation means something. It is not free to either manufacturer or consumer. Unfortunately, instead of improving their quality-assurance procedures and spending money on improving reputation through actual performance, too many companies boost their marketing efforts instead, and spend money on clever designs to improve their product's appearance while it hangs on the Borg's pegboard, where appearance is much more important than performance. They have traded their reputations for fast profits, with predictable results. It has always been thus.

I think Lie-Nielson, as well as Lee Valley, did a wonderful thing by resurrecting old time-tested tool designs, improving those designs, and then manufacturing excellent tools using superior modern materials. But I fear Stanley and others have predictably stolen LN and LV's thunder, and are predictably adulterating the quality, just as they did in the 1950's. It has always been thus.

Caveat emptor, baby.

[ernest dubois]

This is the actual price uninformed/cheapskate people pay for insisting on the absolute lowest cost for the products they buy.





We can disagree about the characterizations but as for the underlying structural critique, this about sums it up.

[Pat Barry]

A real problem with having things made in China is that the fabricators will switch the steel you specified for a different steel they have on hand, or a different steel that they can get cheaper than the one you specified. This happens even if you buy the steel yourself and ship it to the factory in China. They will use the supplied/specified steel to fill a different, more profitable order, or truck it off to Uncle Wong's factory down the block, and then replace it with a different steel that they can procure at less cost.

Internal theft at the factories in China is also a contributing factor to this switcheroo, especially in the case where Uncle Wong benefits.

Happens a lot unless you have a QC guy in the factory, do independent testing, and monitor security. An expensive proposition. I know this from direct hands-on experience.

By removing the steel designation, the American/European companies protect themselves from claims from wholesalers and retailers who actually test the steel and discover that what was used it not what was required in the order documentation. 99.9% of consumers can't tell the difference, so instead of rejecting the bad lot, and fighting with the Chinese fabricator, they just sell it. By removing the material designation, they shield themselves from liability, or claims of breach of contract.

This is the actual price uninformed/cheapskate people pay for insisting on the absolute lowest cost for the products they buy.

A sound policy is to never buy anything made in China if the quality of the metal in the product is more important than the outward appearance of the metal.

Reputation means something. It is not free to either manufacturer or consumer. Unfortunately, instead of improving their quality-assurance procedures and spending money on improving reputation through actual performance, too many companies boost their marketing efforts instead, and spend money on clever designs to improve their product's appearance while it hangs on the Borg's pegboard, where appearance is much more important than performance. They have traded their reputations for fast profits, with predictable results. It has always been thus.

I think Lie-Nielson, as well as Lee Valley, did a wonderful thing by resurrecting old time-tested tool designs, improving those designs, and then manufacturing excellent tools using superior modern materials. But I fear Stanley and others have predictably stolen LN and LV's thunder, and are predictably adulterating the quality, just as they did in the 1950's. It has always been thus.

Caveat emptor, baby.
It seems to me that back in the day (50's and 60's) all these same criticism applied to cheap japanese products. They changed to become market leaders in quality. I suppose china will also. Who knows, the pendulum could swing back the other way for japan too as global pricing pressures keep increasing.

[ernest dubois]

The nationalism thing is, was, and always has been the smoke and mirror game and anyone who can think should think twice about pulling that card out. And besides, how boring can it get? The economics involved are not as simplistic and so enjoy less mass appeal, nonetheless, offer the better answer to the quandary of the cheap chisel.

[steven c newman]

There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.

[John C Cox]

. By removing the steel designation, the American/European companies protect themselves from claims from wholesalers and retailers who actually test the steel and discover that what was used it not what was required in the order documentation. 99.9% of consumers can't tell the difference, so instead of rejecting the bad lot, and fighting with the Chinese fabricator, they just sell it. By removing the material designation, they shield themselves from liability, or claims of breach of contract.

....

Caveat emptor, baby.

It's not just Chinese manufacturers doing this my friend... It was going on long before they got into the business.... Large retailers and large manufacturers have had huge and sophisticated QC departments for a long time.... And for good reason...

And they absolutely do fight it out with the manufacturer - they probably get some significant price concession.. And then they figure out whether they can sell it as 1st quality or if they have to downgrade it and sell it as a "second" or under an alternative brand name or some such.... Why? It has my name on it... My reputation is the one that ends up tarnished - not whichever nameless contract manufacturer does the work behind the curtain...

But I think the point about Caveat Emptour with chisels is particularly valid... They have to do a specific job - and that depends on the maker "getting it right"..... I have had to return my fair share of "First quality" chisels... I also have ended up throwing out my fair share of cheapies that were junk...

It's important to develop your own testing routine to separate the wheat from the chaff... And then some sort of routine to decipher whether it's really a bad one or just needs a bit more work... The heavy prep routine seems to help speed up that process for me at least....

It's really no good to find out your chisel cracked internally during heat treating or is way too soft 2 years after you bought it... By then - you own it.... And about all you can do is send it on down the road....

[Mike Henderson]

There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.

There were quite a number of iron making installations in the American colonies prior to the revolution and I'm sure that tools were made from that iron and steel. It would be impossible for England to enforce such laws in the American Colonies, which were sparsely populated and spread over very large areas.

Here are some of the furnaces in American prior to 1800 (from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_iron_and_steel_industry_in_the_Unit ed_States#Colonial))

Notable pre-19th-century iron furnaces in the US



Name
Location
Start Date
End Date


Boonton Iron Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boonton_Iron_Works)
Boonton, New Jersey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boonton,_New_Jersey)
circa 1770
1911


Catoctin Furnace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoctin_Furnace)
Catoctin Furnace, Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catoctin_Furnace,_Maryland)
1774
1903


Falling Creek Ironworks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Creek_Ironworks)
Chesterfield County, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesterfield_County,_Virginia)
1622
1622


Furnace Mountain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furnace_Mountain_(Virginia))
Loudoun County, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudoun_County,_Virginia)
circa 1790
circa 1870


Hunter's Ironworks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter%27s_Ironworks)
Falmouth, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falmouth,_Virginia)
circa 1750
1782


Huntingdon Furnace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingdon_Furnace)
Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingdon_County,_Pennsylvania)
1796
circa 1880


Neabsco Iron Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neabsco_Iron_Works)
Woodbridge, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbridge,_Virginia)
circa 1737



New Roxbury Ironworks Site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Roxbury_Ironworks_Site)
Woodstock, Connecticut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock,_Connecticut)
1757



Patuxent Iron Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patuxent_Iron_Works)
Anne Arundel County, Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Arundel_County,_Maryland)
1705
1856


Principio Furnace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principio_Furnace)
Cecil County, Maryland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecil_County,_Maryland)
1719
1925


Stirling Iron Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Iron_Works)
Monroe, New York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe,_New_York)
1761
1842


Taunton Iron Works (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taunton_Iron_Works)
Raynham, Massachusetts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynham,_Massachusetts)
1656
1876


Washington Iron Furnace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Iron_Furnace)
Rocky Mount, Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Mount,_Virginia)
circa 1770



Mike

[Patrick Chase]

There was a time in tool history, where we had to import, and were not allowed to even make a steel tool. A blacksmith making a steel shovel was committing an act of Treason in the English Colonies....We HAD to buy Made in England goods....Any trees over a certain size was called The King's Trees, and were reserved for use in the Royal Navy.


There were quite a number of iron making installations in the American colonies prior to the revolution and I'm sure that tools were made from that iron and steel. It would be impossible for England to enforce such laws in the American Colonies, which were sparsely populated and spread over very large areas.

Here are some of the furnaces in American prior to 1800 (from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_iron_and_steel_industry_in_the_Unit ed_States#Colonial)) ...

Britain had a classic mercantilist arrangement with the colonies: The colonies were only allowed to export raw materials, and only to Britain. The colonies were also required to buy all imported finished goods from Britain. They officially couldn't sell to or buy from any other country, though there was plenty of smuggling.

The colonists generally could make finished goods for their own use and for sale within the colonies, just not for export. That's exactly what they did as part of the "non-importation" strategy (it was actually described as such at the time) to protest/resist British attempts at taxation in the 1760s and early 1770s. I imagine that's why so many of the forges you list started in that era

[John C Cox]

It's pretty amazing to think that except for about a 40 year window after WWII - the bulk of US exports are raw materials and agricultural products with the bulk of our finished goods production being consumed domestically - even to this day...

[Patrick Chase]

It's pretty amazing to think that except for about a 40 year window after WWII - the bulk of US exports are raw materials and agricultural products with the bulk of our finished goods production being consumed domestically - even to this day...

That was certainly true up until the 20th Century, but the notion that we've reverted to a raw-good exporter is a gross (though sadly common) misconception. US finished-good manufacturing is or at least was as of a few years ago when I looked carefully at this the largest it's ever been by inflation-adjusted dollar value. Furthermore over 60% of US exports are finished capital or consumer goods. Raw materials only account for 10%. See: https://wits.worldbank.org/CountrySnapshot/en/USA/textview. The short version is that a lot of microchips, vehicles, aircraft, etc are in that mix.

The reason people *think* that the US doesn't make/export finished goods any more is because US manufacturing is heavily automated and represents a far lower share of employment than it did in the past.

The bulk of US production has almost always been consumed domestically, period. The last time I checked our exports amounted to ~20% of GDP while imports amounted to ~25% (the difference is the trade deficit). The other 75% is entirely internal.

Here's some more fun bedtime reading (https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Press-Release/MITR/2016/2016%20Manufacturing%20and%20International%20Trade %20Report.pdf) on the topic, broken out to mind-numbing granularity.

[John C Cox]

So I did some back prep on some Buck O BORG chisels last night... They are kinda soft... It's really crazy that they will chop mortises fine with a 25 degree bevel (no microbevel) with the backs prepped on PSA sandpaper up to 325 grit (that's as fine as I have in PSA).... But the edge fails when I switch over to the actual flat stones on the back.. Go back to PSA paper on the surface plate and it's back to cutting fine.. Go back to the stone and the edge rolls... So now I can "turn this on and off"...

Apparently - it's very slightly dubbing the edge on the back of the bevel with PSA paper on an actual granite surface plate... And that makes the edge hold up to a pretty impressive amount of work.. But I don't have problems with the mortise geometry going all out of whack...

And it cuts like mad with that low bevel.. When the back is properly stoned flat - the edge doesn't hold up quite as well - even with a 35 degree microbevel.... So I am just going to try this PSA paper back prep for chopping duty for a while to see how it goes..

(As an aside, I am curious about if this is one of the reasons water stones produce edges that work so well in real life work.. Perhaps they dish a bit or the slurry dubs the edge slightly and produces an extremely durable edge compared to Diamond stones which do not dish or produce any slurry at all..)

Chisels for Paring will still get backs properly lapped flat - as the chisels register better this way when I need to sneak in and massage a fit..

Why can't "One size fits all" just work fine? I know.. It's a rhetorical question.....

[steven c newman]

While chopping all those mortises yesterday ( in Pine) about every other mortise, I would "strop" the chisel on the leg of my blue jeans. couple of swipes on both bevel and back.
380731
Nothing fancy....

[ernest dubois]

While chopping all those mortises yesterday ( in Pine) about every other mortise, I would "strop" the chisel on the leg of my blue jeans. couple of swipes on both bevel and back.
380731
Nothing fancy....
Avoid the wear and tear on your jeans, use the palm of your hand, it's every bit as effective.