Reworking how you work wood

[Bill Kelleher]

Hello Group,
A few years ago i came down with menieres disease, which has resulted in vertigo with very little notice. (and it has not improved my lack of dancing ability) So awhile back i had a vertigo attack and fell on my table saw. a near miss but still enough to say no more. So i have been using hand tool (yes i am a neanderthal. lol). but recently i have been thinking about a saw stop or a 18 inch band saw ( if i fall i will go down and out of the line of fire.) Any thoughts?
Thanks Bill

[Marshall Harrison]

Which to get would depend on your needs.

The SawStop would limit your injury if you fell onto the blade. But if you passed out while cutting on the band saw your hand could still go into the blade but you would most likely collapse beside the saw and limit your injury to your hand.

It all depends on which you can get the most out of.

[Keith Weber]

...i had a vertigo attack and fell on my table saw.

Wow! There's about the most compelling argument for a beefy overarm blade guard if I've ever heard one! Glad you didn't fall on your blade!

Workshops can be a very dangerous place for someone prone to falling. There's far more than your saw that can hurt you if you slip or fall. You'll have to be very vigilant in looking for those hazards. If I were you, I'd be putting extra attention on putting substantial guards on other tools as well (like shapers, routers, etc.) My Clausing drill press came with a flip up shroud that covers the drill chuck so it doesn't snag some clothing or your knuckles (I actually just took that off a couple of weeks ago). Euro-style jointer guards are way safer than porkchops in that respect. You get the idea.

The other thing that you might want to consider too, is the sharp corner thing. If someone was to do a header and hit their head on the corner of my very heavy shaper and jointer tables on the way down, it would probably kill them -- the 1800 lb. jointer isn't going to be on the losing end of that match up. You might want to consider that type of hazard as well.

[Edwin Santos]

Bill,
This might not be the answer you want, but I'd say stick with hand tools or drop woodworking altogether in favor of a less hazardous pursuit.
Seriously, it's not worth taking the chance of a catastrophic or fatal injury as a result of a spontaneous involuntary attack.
I would say the same to someone susceptible to syncope or seizure.

And/or - I would recommend you raise this subject with your physician and follow his/her advice.

One other thought - even if you had a SawStop with its safety features and you had a fall incident where you lost grip on the board, you're at serious risk of kickback injury.

Edwin

[Steve Demuth]

As someone with a shop full of both power and hand tools, and a close relative with Meniere's, I would definitely advise you to go with hand tool wood work. There are lots of satisfying and beautiful things you can do with no particularly dangerous power tools. If your vertigo is sufficient to cause you to fall unexpectedly (in some sufferers, it comes on slowly enough they can stop and sit/lay down before the world swims out of control), I would also pay close to attention to other sharp and hard things in the shop, or wear headgear when working around the machines.

[Jacob Mac]

I would opt to go solely neander if I were in your shoes. I would also buy S4S whenever possible to avoid all of the donkey work involved in prepping boards by hand.

But if I had to choose between the bandsaw and the Sawstop... I guess I would get the sawstop with a good overhead guard. That would probably be better at mitigating your risk?

[Prashun Patel]

There is a risk of kickback on the tablesaw if you have an event occur in the middle of pushing. That can be just as catastrophic as contacting the blade. So, the Sawstop is not a complete answer here.

The bandsaw too can get nasty if a piece is not properly supported through a cut.

[Ken Kortge]

Bill,

Take a look at the track-based products at Eurekazone.com.

For cutting I am wondering if using their EZ-One Woodworking Center - which is basically a track saw guide rail that lifts up allowing you to slide material underneath the track for cutting. It uses a regular circular saw attached to a special EZ Smart base - with an anti-kickback fin, and has zero-clearance inserts that provide very clean cuts. The saw really has to come off of the track, so if vertigo comes on, it just stays in place - and likely turns off if your finger leaves the power switch. It would be hard to imagine getting body parts down to the blade. The table itself is 24"x48", but the sliding rails are 44" long, so if you put 3/4" plywood inserts in, the top surface can be as big as 44"x48" - a pretty big work area. If you have your material cut down to 4'x4' pieces, the rest of the cutting can be done on the EZ-One.

The EZ-One can actually be used with ANY brand of track & track saw. The only difference is how the track is attached to the so-called bridge elements (using hex nuts instead of the EZ connectors).

Eurekazone makes a Universal Edge Guide for ripping lengths of material. That might work for you, but I'd fear that that if you fall you might bring the assembly down with you. The same goes for using their Miter Square (for cross cuts and mitering). I don't think I'd recommend that, for the same reason.

For dadoes and rabbets using their Super Smart Router Kit (SSRK) attaches the router to a guide rail (such as the one on the EZ-ONE) and guides the movement of the router. Again, you don't really lift or hold the router in place while routing. Instead you simply push the SSRK base along in the desired direction.

They call this "the dead wood concept" - the wood stays in place while the saw moves. Their thinking is that this is much safer.

Search youtube using "Eurekazone" for videos on these products. Searching using product names may find additional videos. Eurekazone is a small business located in Florida. If you have specific questions, just call or write them. They are very good at responding. By the way, I don't work for them - just a happy customer/user for many years.

If you're interested to learn more, you might also post a message on their "track saw forum" - there's a link at the top of the eurekazone web page - and it is open to ALL brands - to ask for recommendations. The folks there are MUCH more experienced woodworkers than me, and very happy to help folks (including me) out.

The best of luck on your search for solutions!!

[Simon MacGowen]

Hello Group,
A few years ago i came down with menieres disease, which has resulted in vertigo with very little notice. (and it has not improved my lack of dancing ability) So awhile back i had a vertigo attack and fell on my table saw. a near miss but still enough to say no more. So i have been using hand tool (yes i am a neanderthal. lol). but recently i have been thinking about a saw stop or a 18 inch band saw ( if i fall i will go down and out of the line of fire.) Any thoughts?
Thanks Bill

Bill,

Sorry for your medical issue but glad that you did not hurt yourself seriously from your fall. I think I have the best solution for you in which you can use hand tools as many have suggested AS WELL AS using your tablesaw without any worry of amputations AND kickbacks.

First, let me point out that if you fall on a SawStop spinning blade, the saw stops and drops -- zero risk of kickbacks. The slight chance of a kickback would exist if you fall not hitting the sawblade and losing the control of your push stick and the stock AND the stock is not supported at the end by the pawl AND by the riving knife. What are the chances of all of those conditions that happen at the same time. Some chances some would argue. If you ask me, the risk of driving a car and getting hurt could be higher.

OK, let us eliminate that tiny chance and this is what I suggest:

For every cut, use the SawStop and this: www.jessem.com/clear-cut-stock-guides.html

With this combination, you will never get kickbacks or amputations. Yes, it will limit some of your cuts but it allows you to continue to enjoy the tablesaw without any worry (as long as you don't turn off the SS feature...which is easy: just don't use any wet wood or use it to cut metals).

Bandsaw? No, no, no unless it has a SS feature on it, or you are willing to accept the risk...The meat industry has a lot of serious bandsaw injuries even when operated by workers without any medical concerns.

You can enjoy both hand tool and power woodworking with such wonderful safety devices available in the market, but only you can decide what is right for you. If I were you, tomorrow (free SawStop dust collection or mobile base is now on offer) I would be ordering my SawStop and the Clear-cut guide right away!

The worst incident I have known from a cabinet shop was when a guy fell and his hand (palm) was in touch with a dado blade. That was before SS was invented.

Simon

[Peter Christensen]

SawStop would be the better of the two in my opinion Bill.

With all the advancements in CNC routers there might be a simple to operate machine out there that would work for you. If you're a design and wing it as you go woodworker (like me) it would probably frustrate you. If you're a pre-design and plan using kind of person, especially if you use Sketchup or similar, the CNC would be useful to you and safe.

[Carlos Alvarez]

I was thinking something similar to what Ken is saying, and my first thought was the Festool MFT/saw combo. So pricey, but I think it would be perfectly safe if you fell on it. In some ways it does much more anyway. It's a miter saw, small table saw, and radial arm saw in one.

[Jim Becker]

Considering the implications of this condition, I would personally eschew using any "stationary" power tools and stick with Neander woodworking, perhaps supplemented with a track saw and other electric portables for stock preparation. Alternatively, getting help from another local woodworker for those tasks that require using larger tools could also be a great...and safe...solution.

[Simon MacGowen]

Considering the implications of this condition, I would personally eschew using any "stationary" power tools and stick with Neander woodworking, perhaps supplemented with a track saw and other electric portables for stock preparation. Alternatively, getting help from another local woodworker for those tasks that require using larger tools could also be a great...and safe...solution.

Not even a track saw, Jim. A person who is holding a plunge saw and fall can hurt himself or herself seriously as the spinning saw would be out of control!

If the SawStop+Clear cut guide is not taken for any reason (financial, space etc), then hand tools (plus light portable tools) are the only route to go for lone-wolf operations.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

So pricey, but I think it would be perfectly safe if you fell on it.

Absolutely not true...Google and you may find a piece of fatality news at a jobsite due to using a circular type of saw and falling!

Simon

[Peter Christensen]

Every method can have the possibility of serious injury and that includes hand tools. Even though remote the possibility exists to fall on a chisel. Especially if you got into the habit of running with scissors when you were a kid and you still do it with your chisels. :)

[Carlos Alvarez]

Absolutely not true...Google and you may find a piece of fatality news at a jobsite due to using a circular type of saw and falling!

Simon

I notice you said "may." And no, I can't find one. I find suicides with a circular saw, and I found a guy in Thailand killed by what was called a "circular saw" but was actually a grinder with a saw blade on it. So the evidence so far tells us that a real circular saw is not going to kill you. And particularly in the context of being mounted into a table where the blade is hidden. I specifically said that, because it's part of the safety aspect.

[Pat Barry]

Another idea. 3D printing. They now make wood fiber based 3D print materials. This might be the future anyway, might as well get in early.

[Ken Kortge]

Absolutely not true...Google and you may find a piece of fatality news at a jobsite due to using a circular type of saw and falling!

Simon

The EZ-One saw runs a circular saw on grooved base, on a fixed ridged guide rail (like most track saws), and is surrounded by what is essentially a 2'x4' "cage" of aluminum extrusions. It is NOT a hand-held circular saw, though it is NOT actually locked onto the guide rail.

If necessary it wouldn't be too hard to fasten the EZ-One's feet to the floor - so it won't move or fall over if fallen on ... though I'm not sure how much weight the extrusions will take without bending. Still, replacement extrusions are easily replaceable, purchased in lengths by the foot. I've heard a story that the creator of the EZ tools used the guide rails as ramps for loading his small car. Can't confirm that though.

The risk of a mobile circular saw was my reason for not recommending use of the edge guide or miter square - because those are smaller assemblies that might be more likely to be be pulled off the work surface. The saw on the EZ-One can be left unplugged until until on the guide rail, and then plugged just before use. The saw does not have to be removed from the guide rail when removing/adding material.

I assume that Bill can determine what is best for him. Just offering ideas.

[Scott Bernstein]

Hi, Bill. I too have Meniere's disease. For those of you who do not know, Meniere's is a disease of the inner ear. The organs of hearing of balance are located in the inner ear so both are affected. It typically effects one side only although in about 1 out of 10 cases both ears may be affected. It's thought to be caused by too much inner ear fluid ("endolymphatic hydrops") which causes too much pressure to build up - so it's kind of like glaucoma in the ear. Other causes have to be ruled out, such as tumors of the ear, benign positional vertigo, etc... Symptoms of Meniere's include tinnitus (ringing in the ear), hearing loss on the affected side, and balance problems (ie: vertigo). The symptoms of vertigo can come and go; typically the hearing loss is progressive over time. The vertigo is often quite severe and can start suddenly and, characteristically, is independent of body position and generally epiodes are short-lived. The vertigo can be severe and I would describe it as a sensation in which your brain suddenly cannot tell right from left nor up from down. This sends conlflicting data to the conscious parts of your brain and your eyes. It results in a very strong sensation of movement and the room spinning out of control. You eyes have a peculiar motion called nytagmus during severe episodes and you actually see everything around you seemingly spinning out of control. You KNOW you are not moving but your brain,eyes, and balance are completely confused. Your brain no longer knows what input to send the postural muscles holding you up and reflexively you flail about trying to hold onto something and can end up going to ground. It feels like you are on a merry-go-round, on a roller-coaster, and a ship in rough seas all at once. It is not a loss of consciousness, just a complete loss of balance. I have had attacks while sitting on a train and ended up on the floor. Eventually in some cases the disease progresses to the point where all sense of hearing and balance in the affected side are gone; effectively the ear is dead. At this point the vertigo symptoms improve since you have essentially learned to balance with one ear only.

Treatment strategies include low-salt diet and diuretics to try to reduce the pressure in the ear. There are surgeries which attempt to drain the ear of excess fluid but the evidence shows this often does not work well - but hearing is preserved. In other procedures the nerves in the ear are either cut or destroyed with certain medications injected into the ear - this solves the vertigo but hearing is also lost. Systemic steroids or steroids injected into the ear can help with severe episodes. There are other less conventional treatments but I don't believe any of those work very well. Medications which reduce activity of the vestibular system (balance) can also help. Meclizine is probably the most common, or scopolamine. You should talk to your ENT or neurologist about various options. Consider looking up a center for vestibular or inner ear disorders at an academic medical center in your area/region. Some of these things are really esoteric and it can often be more efficient to meet with a sub-sub-specialist who is really passionate and interested in your particular disorder.

Also there is such a thing as vestibular rehabilitation - a special form of physical rehab. Hard to find, but it can help train your brain to deal with the crazy vestibular signals from your bad ear.

Good luck!
SB

[Jim Becker]

Another idea. 3D printing. They now make wood fiber based 3D print materials. This might be the future anyway, might as well get in early.

Along this line, a small, hobbyist CNC machine like Shapako or Inventables would be an interesting way to expand beyond "just hand tools" as long as one is ready and willing to learn the software side of things.

[Simon MacGowen]

I notice you said "may." And no, I can't find one. I find suicides with a circular saw (WTF???), and I found a guy in Thailand killed by what was called a "circular saw" but was actually a grinder with a saw blade on it. So the evidence so far tells us that a real circular saw is not going to kill you. And particularly in the context of being mounted into a table where the blade is hidden. I specifically said that, because it's part of the safety aspect.

Did you even try a good search?

A quick search found several, one as recent as in the fall 2017: https://youtu.be/oKNojA-oNKo

A circular saw even used in a track saw can cause kickbacks (that is why some but not all have the kickback device).

By the way, I said the circular kind of saw which includes worm gear saws etc.

If anyone can come up with a more foolproof system than a SS plus the clear cut set up, please share but do not say xxx is safe without any qualifications. This is not a contest ; every solution may work but potential risks should be made known to the OP who is relying on your suggestions to help him make a decision.

Simon

[John Sincerbeaux]

Hi, Bill. I too have Meniere's disease. For those of you who do not know, Meniere's is a disease of the inner ear. The organs of hearing of balance are located in the inner ear so both are affected. It typically effects one side only although in about 1 out of 10 cases both ears may be affected. It's thought to be caused by too much inner ear fluid ("endolymphatic hydrops") which causes too much pressure to build up - so it's kind of like glaucoma in the ear. Other causes have to be ruled out, such as tumors of the ear, benign positional vertigo, etc... Symptoms of Meniere's include tinnitus (ringing in the ear), hearing loss on the affected side, and balance problems (ie: vertigo). The symptoms of vertigo can come and go; typically the hearing loss is progressive over time. The vertigo is often quite severe and can start suddenly and, characteristically, is independent of body position and generally epiodes are short-lived. The vertigo can be severe and I would describe it as a sensation in which your brain suddenly cannot tell right from left nor up from down. This sends conlflicting data to the conscious parts of your brain and your eyes. It results in a very strong sensation of movement and the room spinning out of control. You eyes have a peculiar motion called nytagmus during severe episodes and you actually see everything around you seemingly spinning out of control. You KNOW you are not moving but your brain,eyes, and balance are completely confused. Your brain no longer knows what input to send the postural muscles holding you up and reflexively you flail about trying to hold onto something and can end up going to ground. It feels like you are on a merry-go-round, on a roller-coaster, and a ship in rough seas all at once. It is not a loss of consciousness, just a complete loss of balance. I have had attacks while sitting on a train and ended up on the floor. Eventually in some cases the disease progresses to the point where all sense of hearing and balance in the affected side are gone; effectively the ear is dead. At this point the vertigo symptoms improve since you have essentially learned to balance with one ear only.

Treatment strategies include low-salt diet and diuretics to try to reduce the pressure in the ear. There are surgeries which attempt to drain the ear of excess fluid but the evidence shows this often does not work well - but hearing is preserved. In other procedures the nerves in the ear are either cut or destroyed with certain medications injected into the ear - this solves the vertigo but hearing is also lost. Systemic steroids or steroids injected into the ear can help with severe episodes. There are other less conventional treatments but I don't believe any of those work very well. Medications which reduce activity of the vestibular system (balance) can also help. Meclizine is probably the most common, or scopolamine. You should talk to your ENT or neurologist about various options. Consider looking up a center for vestibular or inner ear disorders at an academic medical center in your area/region. Some of these things are really esoteric and it can often be more efficient to meet with a sub-sub-specialist who is really passionate and interested in your particular disorder.

Also there is such a thing as vestibular rehabilitation - a special form of physical rehab. Hard to find, but it can help train your brain to deal with the crazy vestibular signals from your bad ear.

Good luck!
SB

Scott,
you gave an excellent description of the disease and its symptoms. Im sorry you and the OP suffer from this. As a woodworker, how do you cope with the potential vertigo events while in the shop. What advice would you give to the OP?

Thanks
John

[Mike Heidrick]

Being a bit crazy and good with elec and switches, a few things I might try. First get the dafest tools you want to use. SS with guard is good, but we can also stop a bandsaw almost immediately too. We will get to that.

First, limit the impact of the fall ir prevent that or slow it down.

1. Fall protection and a climbing harness. Tie off to a ceiling point so I cant slam down to the floor. Give myself just enough slack for the mobility and motion I need.

Next elec tech to get stuff stopped:

2. Teathered emergency stop switch. If I fall I want to trigger the tools being stopped as soon and safely as possible. If a SS is involved It may need powered till stopped to keep the braking system on so I would time delay that. These triggers could be a mechanical switch and ring (think teather on a jet ski), or proximity limit and a metal/magnetic key teather, or really anything Normally Open NO with the teather providing the Closed action, run that through a coil on a relay and pass the high voltage fir the tool though the line side of the circuit. You could do this for mounted 120v outlet receptical so any hand power tool you use will have the power shut off to that outlet if you fall or anything. 220v outlet just mount the trigger box somewhere close by where you stand.

3. Maximize brake response time. Id run 3 phase stationary tools with darn near immediate dc brake equipped vfds. Id stop that tool as fast as i could as long as it was safe to do so. These could also be wired to the teathered estop to tigger the shutdown. The intelligent relay in a vfd could also do the timed delay a 3ph sawstop would need for its brake system. It could also be wired to a microswitch brake controlled bandsaw. Trigger from teather could have that microswitch tripped.

4. Id create an alert setup to get me some help from another person if a system triggered. Also echo or google homes to get a fast voice activated intercom setup up and running along with a remote on the trigger setup as well to cause the echo or google home to alert someone if a trigger happens.

Just a couple ideas i would try.

More than one way to be safe vs just hoping its not a bad fall. But some folks dont like techy woodworking so there is always neander only.

[Bill Kelleher]

Thanks to everyone who gave advice! It is all well taken and appreciated. I told my wife i would probably wind up being a neanderthal in the shop, she has not stopped laughing.....:)

[John K Jordan]

Hello Group,
A few years ago i came down with menieres disease, which has resulted in vertigo ... i have been thinking about a saw stop or a 18 inch band saw ( if i fall i will go down and out of the line of fire.)

A bandsaw could still cut your hand if you went forward. However if you always lower the upper guides to just above the wood and use push sticks and perhaps a featherboard to keep the hands away the chances are much less. It would also be possible to devise a semicircular plexiglass guard fastened near the guides that could ride just above the wood.

BTW, I knew someone who suffered from vertigo while recovering from a brain issue. She wore a bicycle helmet when walking to prevent a head injury in case of a fall.

JKJ

[Simon MacGowen]

Thanks to everyone who gave advice! It is all well taken and appreciated. I told my wife i would probably wind up being a neanderthal in the shop, she has not stopped laughing.....:)

I believe your choice is the least expensive path since you are already equipped with what are needed. Perhaps to make the use of your shop time, you can use S4S dressed stock for most of your projects.

I use hand tools a lot but do all the grunt work with machines which means I have the most labor-intensive stock preparation taken care of before I take out the hand tools. I find that approach very time efficient and I can focus on the more important aspects of woodworking, namely, executing fine joinery tasks, surfacing the finished parts with planes, and aiming for the best results in the time frame allowed.

Simon

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks to everyone who gave advice! It is all well taken and appreciated. I told my wife i would probably wind up being a neanderthal in the shop, she has not stopped laughing.....:)

Buy a Sawstop and have your wife do the cutting for you............Regards, Rod.

[Scott Bernstein]

Scott,
you gave an excellent description of the disease and its symptoms. Im sorry you and the OP suffer from this. As a woodworker, how do you cope with the potential vertigo events while in the shop. What advice would you give to the OP?

Thanks
John


Well, the advice is everything I laid out in my original reply. Unfortunately there is no magic bullet. The solution is combination of dietary changes, periodic oral steroids or intra-tympanic steroids for severe episodes, vestibular depressants as needed (usually Meclizine), and vestibular rehab from an experienced center of excellence at a center for inner ear or vestibular disorders. In cases associated with severe vertigo there are several more aggressive surgical and non-surgical interventions which can be tried.

For me, I take Meclizine as needed and the vestibular rehabilitation has helped a lot. Haven't had any major problems in the shop, and I take care to use all standard universal safety precautions.

SB

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bill,

First, I am sorry to hear that you have Meniere's disease. I am afflicted with Meniere's disease. I was diagnosed over 20 years ago with "Meniere's like symptoms" that caused intermittent vertigo attacks that gradually increased in severity and frequency. Eventually I thought I was going to have to retire because of the vertigo attacks. Finally, I saw an ENT who prescribed a diuretic for me. It resolved the issue save 1 attack the day following cochlear implant surgery. My Meniere's cost me my hearing too. With the vertigo attacks gone, I still use my regular woodworking tools in my shop.

Have you consulted a specialist about these vertigo attacks? My personal physician after checking my eyes while I was having an attack referred me to the ENT who was able to definitely diagnose my Meniere's after I received an MR scan to eliminate any other neurological causes. A simple pill I take every morning remedied the vertigo attacks for me. IF you have not consulted an ENT I urge you to do so.

Good luck!

[Ben Zara]

I have a sawstop but the problem you are having might not be solved with a sawstop. I would say a tracksaw and maybe a planer that you feed from a healthy distance would probably be mostly safe. Other than that it should be all hand tools.

[Carlos Alvarez]

Did you even try a good search?

A quick search found several, one as recent as in the fall 2017: https://youtu.be/oKNojA-oNKo

A circular saw even used in a track saw can cause kickbacks (that is why some but not all have the kickback device).

By the way, I said the circular kind of saw which includes worm gear saws etc.

If anyone can come up with a more foolproof system than a SS plus the clear cut set up, please share but do not say xxx is safe without any qualifications. This is not a contest ; every solution may work but potential risks should be made known to the OP who is relying on your suggestions to help him make a decision.

Simon
Good find. Still not a fall, and has to do with what appears to be a broken blade. Which the SS won't help with.

[Simon MacGowen]

https://www.theage.com.au/news/national/circular-saw-accident-kills-man/2008/01/25/1201157669626.html

[Bill Kelleher]

Scott
You really gave a spot on description! Thank you ( i printed your reply so i can just hand it out to people who ask what "it" is. I have been through the intra tympanic (Needle through the eardrum) corticosteroids injection, diets, antivert,diuetics etc with veried success. My otoneurologist is great and we have used most of the non surgical interventions but surgery is a few years off. I have not worked since I had vertigo and fell on one of my patients in 2013, These days play with chisels, handsaws and bits and braces.