Pepper mills (again)

[Blake McCully]

Hi all,
Here are some pics of my first two pepper mills. As you can tell, the use the grind mill mechanisms. Both are of walnut, and finished with 5 coats of brush-on Minwax spar urethane. I hate these pics. I'm gonna have to spend some time with John Hart and have him show me what to do:rolleyes: Both are 8" tall. On the first, on the left, I made the top 2 3/4" to include the 1/4" tenon, but I wasn't able to make it like I wanted, too out of proportion so I put the big cove in it. Didn't come out too bad. The top on the one at right is an inch shorter.

[John Hart]

heh heh ...ROAD TRIP!!! Sheesh Blake...you make me out to be some kind of expert. I just learned how a month ago!!....and still learnin' :o

I think they look good. I think we can iron out that glare though....and gas is down to $2.04 today.....hmmmm:rolleyes:

[Blake McCully]

....and gas is down to $2.04 today.....hmmmm:rolleyes:
Whoa,
It's still $2.17 here in most places. Road trip sounds good. We'll have to discuss that.

Later, John.

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Blake,
If I had to pick one, I would say the one on the right, however others may like the form of the one on the left. One of the main objectives with pepper mills is how it feels in your hand. If it feels good then it's good.

Your finish looks good, and definitely sets off the mills. As they say, walnut is a hard nut to crack.

I'm no shutter bug, but in my window looks like you may present a higher quality photo if you use a tripod or set your camera on a rest. But it could just be my computer, it's getting old, like me.

Verry nice Blake,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Randy Meijer]

Nice job!! What do you guys use to bore the hole through the body of the mill?? The advertisements in the catalogs seem to recommend using Forstner bits; but there was a guy on another site who said Forstner bits were not designed to drill end grain and did not do a good job of it. Any thoughts?? Thanks.

[Blake McCully]

Thanks everybody,

Bill, I agree, I prefer the one on the right. The one on the left was the first. As I think I have said in previous posts, trying to find any info as to how to set up the blanks is about as plentiful as hen's teeth. Since I'm not a mathematician, it took me a bunch of calculations to figure out what the proportions might be. Obviously, from the first one, I missed. Although, I will say one cool thing about doing this mills is that they can be prepped and turned and even finished, even if you don't have any mechanisms. That way, you can get a bunch done while you're waiting for the hardware.

I checked out the instructions for the crush mill mechanisms from PSI and CSUSA and the are both very comprehensive. I did notice that there is a discrepency in the size of drill bits they suggest. The instructions from CSUSA call for bits that are 1/16" larger than what is called for by PSI. I think the reason is that the PSI instructions suggest you trim the 6 flutes or whatever from the mechanisms, while CSUSA doesn't. That may be what the difference is.

Randy, I use forstner bits. Since I'm not REALLY a woodworker, I wasn't aware of any problem with end grain. Sorta like why psychologists say that young childern can solve the Rubick's cube so easily, they don't know that it is nearly impossible:D

I have a 4" drill press vise that I set up on end attached to a chunk of wood. This helps to keep everything centered while I'm drilling. First I drill an 1 5/8" hole about 1/2" deep, then I follow this up with a hole 1 1/16" deep through the rest of the blank. I have a bit extender that works well. For the top, I drill a hole completely through with a #7 bit. I'm still having alignment difficulty with my jery-rigged vise. It is square from left to right, but on the last one I did, it is slightly off from front to back. I'll be re-aligning it today.

I don't rough turn my square blanks before I do any drilling. For the top, I screw it onto the mandrel that I have for bottle stoppers and have marked for the 1/4" tenon. I turn the tenon while the blank is still square. Once I have the tenon the proper diameter, just a shade less than 1 1/16". Then I mount the bottom blank up against the top, then turn the profile on the entire piece. This procedure helps me to maintain the proper alignment between the top and the bottom. It took me a while to come up with this scheme but it seems to work.

I can see that when I start working with the ceramic mechanisms, I'll have to readjust my process since the drilling procedure is quite different. But since I figured out this other way, I shouldn't have any problem turning the blanks for the ceramics.

I hope this helps Randy. Bill, again thanks for the review and the encouragement. I'll keep posting as I get some more done.

Oh, by the way, if you noticed the thing that the mills are sitting on, that is a big block of polyseter resin that I have started to work with. I plan to use that as a top to one of my next mills. I have some nice cherry that I think I'll use it with. More about the polyester resin later.

Again, thanks all.

[Steve Schoene]

Woodcraft has a set of directions on its website for the mechanism you used.

I'd also be interested in an alternative to Forstner bits, or any Forstner bits with a shank longer than the 3 1/2" that seems to be the standard. There are extensions that can be used, but these nearly block chips and therefore slow the process considerably.

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Blake,
I have included a photo of how the boring of pepper mills is accomplished in our shop. I find it to be the easiest way,the chips just fall out the end. Turn the wood not the drill.
Rockler sells a longer shank Forstner bit and also in MM., you can purchase extensions at Ace, or other hardware stores Farley cheep. Drilling out the hole to accept the drill shank is required. You can also purchase through MT adaptors to accept the extension and adjust the extension to suit. For the shallow boring, I just use the chuck.
I don't know who said Fostner bits were no good for end grain, but I have bored ALL types of wood and a lot of it, with the same, and have NO complaints. Could be he has dull bits. Anywho, they work very well for me.
Catalog shop some, your efforts will become a snap.
Hope this helps some,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

ps. forgot-- the CrushGrind mechanisms are metric and the mills should be bored with MM bits, for the best applacation.

[Blake McCully]

Bill,
Thanks for the advice. That spindle steady is a great idea. Right now I use my DP with an extension for through drilling. My big problem right now with using the extension bit with my lathe, is that I have a Jet mini and no extension so it is really quite short. I'm planning on a larger lathe in the spring, if all goes well, so I will look into boring that way. Right now, as long as I can keep the blank square on all sides, the DP works pretty well. That's one of the reasons I bore them out before I turn them. That way I'm using square blanks and don't have to worry about marring the finsihed product.

Do you happen to know the MM drill sizes? PSI and CSUSA only give standard sizes even though the both indicate that they are metric. I've found a great place for forstner bits of all kinds standard and metric whose prices aren't too bad, www.traditionalwoodworker.com check them out.

I really did want to go with metric because I feel the fit would be better and I wouldn't have to worry about trimming this and cutting that. Too much monkeying around for me.

I'll put up some more pics as I get them. I'm having a blast with these.

[Bill Stevener]

Blake, I am going to try and post some info. if it works ok. If not I will try and email you a copy. If that does not work, send me your address and I will mail you a copy. Just thought others may be interested as well.
Bill.>>>>>>>>>:)

[Randy Meijer]

....I hope this helps Randy....

Thanks, Blake!! That was what I wanted to hear. BTW, I was planning on boring my holes on my JET mini, too. It never occurred to me that I would have a size limit because of the distance between the centers. Guess I need to set up my chuck and bit and see just exactly how big a mill I can do on the little JET. Sort of an unhappy thought; but better to find out about it now rather than after I have bought a bunch of blanks that are too long!! Looks like I may have to do my bopring on my DP as well??

[Randy Meijer]

.....I don't know who said Fostner bits were no good for end grain, but I have bored ALL types of wood and a lot of it, with the same, and have NO complaints....ps. forgot-- the CrushGrind mechanisms are metric and the mills should be bored with MM bits, for the best applacation.

I'm not naming names; but let's just say I wasn't confident that the information was credible. However, I couldn't dispute the claim with first hand experience of my own.

Bill: As to your second point, from a purely technical point of view, no one can argue that the statement is not correct. As a practical matter, however, if you get a bit that is the closest 1/16"(proud), then any places where fit is of concern will be off by no more than 0.03". Doesn't seem that such a small difference would be critical in a pepper mill??

[Bill Stevener]

As a practical matter, however, if you get a bit that is the closest 1/16"(proud), then any places where fit is of concern will be off by no more than 0.03". Doesn't seem that such a small difference would be critical in a pepper mill??

Hi Randy,
I have tossed your question around for several days now and have many answers, But I will leave it like this.
I did state that for the Best application, the mills should be bored with MM bits.
I know some suppliers suggest that during the installation of the mechanism, it can be trimmed in places, and epoxy applied to secure it in place. With a 0.030" circumferential clearance, applying the total length of the mechanism, this will take an considerable amount of epoxy. Trust me on this one, ( this type of application will and dose break down in time, and the installation will fail). Furthermore, CrushGrind guarantees the mechanism for 25 years, I would think any alteration to the same would void the guarantee. I guarantee my mills for life, that's my life of course, and that guarantee gets shorter every year:( .
The CrushGrind is not your standard type of mechanism, which I consider the best available today. I would suggest you obtain one and study it and get to know how it works, for a better understanding of why a small difference may be critical in a pepper mill. To me - 0.030" is an excessive tolerance.
In closing - if you are going to buy bits for making pepper mills, why not buy the correct size. Why fix a watch, when it's not broke:confused: . It's a great mechanism, when installed the way it was designed.
Hope this makes sense and is of some help,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Randy Meijer]

Bill: What size bits does CrushGrind recommend for their mechanisms??

I just got a new PSI catalog today and noticed that they recommend non-metric bits but two of the four bits required are a different size from what CSUSA suggests??? Guess I need to get out my vernier and take a couple of measurements!!

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Randy,
The illustrations I presented in a previous post give all of the dimensions, showing the max over size is + 0.30 MM, which in turn, rounds out to 0.012", that comes to about 0.006" circumferential. The average post card is about 0.007" The two most critical diam. are the bore diam. for the upper and lower assembly.
The illustration shows a bore of 21.70 MM for the upper assembly. I use a 22 MM bit, this puts you right at the max.
The illustration shows a bore of 38 MM for the lower assembly which is 1.496". I use a 1.5" bit which uses up 0.004" of the allowable 0.012". Seems to work ok.

I personally just think a 1/16" over size is a bit much, as when one considers the relative numbers are for ideal drilling conditions, generally works well when drilling steel plate, it's hard enough to hold the tolerances in the wood.

Most folks never consider it, but generally most wood continues to shrink some in time, may be hard to visualize, but the hole gets bigger.

I hope all this mbo-jumbo helps some and wish you well with your endeavors. When you get a CrushGrind mechanism, look it over, and see what works best for you.

Have a safe and fun day,
Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Randy Meijer]

Hi Randy,
The illustrations I presented in a previous post give all of the dimensions, showing the max over size is + 0.30 MM, which in turn, rounds out to 0.012", that comes to about 0.006" circumferential. The average post card is about 0.007"
Bill: I had a hard time reading the dims off of your pictures. It was late and I missed the fact that they were thumbnails.....just went back and discovered my oversight.....sorry.



The two most critical diam. are the bore diam. for the upper and lower assembly.
Agreed. And since you use a 1.5" bit for the lower assembly, we are already in agreement that at least three of the four bits necessary to produce a well built mill could be non-metric bits without compromising the quality of the construction.



The illustration shows a bore of 21.70 MM for the upper assembly. I use a 22 MM bit, this puts you right at the max. I personally just think a 1/16" over size is a bit much, as when one considers the relative numbers are for ideal drilling conditions, generally works well when drilling steel plate, it's hard enough to hold the tolerances in the wood.
OK, here is where we think a little differently. A 7/8" bit(as suggested by PSI) is 22.2 mm which is +0.5 mm or 0.019" or @ 1/64"± over. That's a radial difference of 0.0095" as compared to the speced max. of 0.006". Not very much of a difference?? Whether it is too much is, I guess, a matter of choice for the individual crafter. It does look like the CSUSA recommendation for a 15/16" bit is excessive!! Since I already have a 7/8" bit, I am going to use that and see what happens. If it looks like it is too big, I'll go to the extra trouble of finding a 22 mm bit.



Most folks never consider it, but generally most wood continues to shrink some in time, may be hard to visualize, but the hole gets bigger.
Good point to remember!!



I hope all this mbo-jumbo helps some and wish you well with your endeavors. When you get a CrushGrind mechanism, look it over, and see what works best for you.
Yes, your comments have cleared up quite a few questions. Thanks for the information!! One thing, among several, that has come out of this discussionis is that the recommended PSI bit sizes are a lot closer to the spec dims in your drawings than are the CSUSA recommendations??? I plan to send CSUSA an email with a copy of this thread and see what they have to say. One last question......Are the drawings that you posted, actual information directly from CrushGrindâ or are they from a different source?? Thanks, again, for your insight.

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Randy,
All in all, what ever you decide to go with, one other thing to keep in mind is that the CrushGrind is designed for a press fit, which requires the aid of some additional force, other than by hand. This along with the retaining tabs, is what secures it in place. There are no screws or metal plates to secure it. Once in place with a good fit, it will never come out.

The illustrations I posted were available to me long before the mechanisms were available on the open market to the general public. Where they were secured and the mechanisms I used before this present period in time, I am not at liberty to divulge, however the dimensions are pretty much on the nut.

Reflecting back to your original question, which I hope some of this will help, as to weather a 1/16" would be critical in a pepper mill, is a decision only you can make. I will stand by one statement, I don't think you can find a better mechanism.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)