Powder post beetles

[Patrick Walsh]

I took delivery of 160bf of 8/4 QSVG cherry a few days ago. It all had one live edge.

Anywho I started cleaning it up today. Putting a straight line one one side, jointing the ripping to width. I found a number of boats with not only fairly large tracks but also live larvae.

I cut away all wood with tracks and then took another .5-1”. Mostly it seemed the tracks only existed in the sapwood.

So I have a few concerns. First I have a shop full of very expensive exitic lumber I have been hoarding. Is this lumber now at risk. The cherry has been in my shop for 2-3 days. I then milked it up today creating a serious cherry dust bomb. When I was done I immediately removed all the infected cut offs and vacuumed my shop head to toe including my dust collector ts and every inch of my shop.

My second concern is this limber is to build a table and a desk for a client along side a kitchen. The whole project is over six figures being euro sycamore, QS cherry, and maggascar ebony. Do I run the risk of these bugs becoming a problem down the road if I build with it and they are still inside my boards even if I think I cut them all out.

I’m pretty freaked out as I Siena $3500 on the stock and gave tens of thousands of dollars of exotic woods in my shop.

Right now the cherry is still in my shop but I’m thinking it needs to go ASAP!?

Thoughts?

[Ole Anderson]

From a brief search on Google "How to kill powder post beetles": Heat and cold treatments. High heat (120-140° F. or 49-60° C.) for 6 hours kills all stages of powderpost beetles. Temperatures of 0° F. or -18° C. for 72 hours will also kill powderpost beetles

Also chemical treatments can be used. Because of that pest, I would never buy any quantity of lumber that isn't kiln dried. A friend gave me couple of oak boards with signs of the beetle. I got rid of them in a couple of weeks after worrying if they would migrate to my other wood stash. No signs of that happening.

[Nick Lazz]

If you are sure they are powder post beetles, Get rid of it ASAP! Any of your unfinished wood is at risk. A friend of mine had a house built recently and long story short they were in the face frame of his cabinets. They tried chemical, heat etc to rid them and none of it worked. The whole thing has been a fiasco. Cabinet shop ultimately ripped out all of the finished cabinets and replaced them.

I would also talk to the source where you bought the wood and get your money back.

[Scott T Smith]

Get it out of your shop ASAP. The only method recognized by the wood industry is heat sterilization. You can do this at home if you don't have a friendly kiln nearby.

FWW magazine had an article by Christian Becksvoort several years back about a home sterilization chamber. If you send me a pm with your e-mail address, I'll send you a copy of the article.

[Patrick Walsh]

Scott

Thanks for the response. I can’t figure out how to send pm’s since the web site was reformatted. I found your buisness email and sent you a message there. Thank you so much.

[John K Jordan]

I can’t figure out how to send pm’s since the web site was reformatted.

If you click on a person's name on one of their messages the pop-up menu should have a "Private Message" option.

JKJ

[Matt Day]

If you’re on your phone viewing, click on the three dots button in the far top right, click messages, then compose, and you’ll have to type in the name of the person.

[Jim Becker]

Scott

Thanks for the response. I can’t figure out how to send pm’s since the web site was reformatted. I found your buisness email and sent you a message there. Thank you so much.
As an aside, there really haven't been any changes to this site's formatting...yet. It will change when the software switches from vBulletin to Xenforo.

[Kelby Van Patten]

160 bf for $3500? That's $21.87 per board foot. That's awfully expensive for cherry. Especially expensive for cherry that presumably wasn't kiln dried, or it wouldn't have had all those powder post beetles.

[Patrick Walsh]

I agree it was pricey.

The lumber was kiln dried. I

would never purchase lumber that was not.

The material is beautiful. All from one log all book matched numbered yada yada.

By contrast I just order 150 bf of 4/4 QS for a local supplier for the face frames of some cabinets. I’m sure this,arterial will be nothing like the $21.87 bf material. Cost was $6.80 bf..

I do feel pretty had but I know it was a honest mistake as the bugs could not be seen until it was cut into as they were hiding between the bark and sapwood. The face grain has not one indication of a issue.

I found someone local to me with a kiln that is well versed in dealing with such problems that’s going to cook the daylights out of the stock for short money.

As of now the stock is sitting in the back of my truck wrapped and sealed into a tarp. My shop was vacuumed head to toe then the vacuumed thrown away. I went so far as to vacuumed out every tool the stock touched including tearing down my dust collector fully vacuuming and blowing the filter out far far away from my property. I’m considering spraying my whole shop and my lumber collection with Boracare. I don’t know this may not be nesisarry? I’m kimda reluctant to soak my lumber with a chemical that may darken or discolor it. I probably have something like a couple thousand bf of various high dollar exotic hardwood lumber. Much of it would be very very hard to replace.

[Ron Citerone]

I agree it was pricey.

The lumber was kiln dried. I

would never purchase lumber that was not.

The material is beautiful. All from one log all book matched numbered yada yada.

By contrast I just order 150 bf of 4/4 QS for a local supplier for the face frames of some cabinets. I’m sure this,arterial will be nothing like the $21.87 bf material. Cost was $6.80 bf..

I do feel pretty had but I know it was a honest mistake as the bugs could not be seen until it was cut into as they were hiding between the bark and sapwood. The face grain has not one indication of a issue.

I found someone local to me with a kiln that is well versed in dealing with such problems that’s going to cook the daylights out of the stock for short money.

As of now the stock is sitting in the back of my truck wrapped and sealed into a tarp. My shop was vacuumed head to toe then the vacuumed thrown away. I went so far as to vacuumed out every tool the stock touched including tearing down my dust collector fully vacuuming and blowing the filter out far far away from my property. I’m considering spraying my whole shop and my lumber collection with Boracare. I don’t know this may not be nesisarry? I’m kimda reluctant to soak my lumber with a chemical that may darken or discolor it. I probably have something like a couple thousand bf of various high dollar exotic hardwood lumber. Much of it would be very very hard to replace.

I think the kiln drying should solve your problem. I bought some air dried white oak in VA some years back and found some grubs in the sapwood. I cut out any sapwood and another inch into the heart wood and never had a problem. I didn't know enough about it, but if it happened now I would either ditch the wood or find some one to kiln dry it at high heat. I think they mostly emerge April to July and then lay eggs, do I doubt your 3 days in the shop caused an infestation in your other wood. Good Luck!

[Ole Anderson]

So you had power post beetles in cherry that was properly kiln dried? How did that happen?

[Scott T Smith]

So you had power post beetles in cherry that was properly kiln dried? How did that happen?

Powder post beetles will re-infect dry lumber. In the OP's instance, it was either re-exposed after kiln drying or the kiln operator did not sterilize the load at the end of the kiln cycle.

This is the biggest drawback to solar kilns; depending upon where they are located they may not get hot enough - long enough to sterilize fully.

[Bob Leistner]

If I were you I would have consulted with an expert insect exterminator.

[John K Jordan]

If I were you I would have consulted with an expert insect exterminator long before looking for free advise on a website. Seems you have alot at stake here for amatuer guessing games. Don't mean to be offensive but if I was paying you six figures and found out that this is how you deal with serious issues that could concern my home, I would not be happy.

Or go to the wood web and read what the expert Gene Wengert says about getting rid of PPBs in the wood.

JKJ

[Ron Citerone]

I keep seeing 130- 140 degree F. as the magic temperature to kill them. The problem is that means the interior of the wood has to reach that temp, not just the air around it. I would want it done by an experienced kiln operator. I belong to a woodworking school that insists on inspecting every piece of wood that comes into the shop. Any wood with insect damage is not allowed whether kiln dried or not.

I sometimes buy wood green from a sawmill and stay away from anything with live edge/bark/ excessive sap wood. Life is a gamble sometimes.................

Not an expert just my 2 pennies.

Ron

[Bob Leistner]

There are many different insects that will infect a tree. We are assuming they are powder post beetle, but don't even know that much. If the owners are entertaining one night and insects pop out of the wood, shame on you.If they can afford "six figures", no doubt they have a friend or two who are lawyers and will make your life quite miserable.

[Patrick Walsh]

My response is the same as Scott bellow. And I only say that with the recent education I have gained due to this incident. I dint claim to be any kind of expert. However more than one expert has confirmed what Scott has bellow with regard to re infecting.

All I can go on is the word of the seller and the seller insists all his lumber is kiln dried.

[Ron Citerone]

There are many different insects that will infect a tree. We are assuming they are powder post beetle, but don't even know that much. If the owners are entertaining one night and insects pop out of the wood, shame on you.If they can afford "six figures", no doubt they have a friend or two who are lawyers and will make your life quite miserable.

Agreed. I would have to think there is some kiln temp that will kill any internal bug. Now if I could just get rid of the ants that return to my house every spring!

[Patrick Walsh]

I did find a lumber yard local to me who is experienced in cooking away pests. They have agreed to take care of this for me.

Im told they will cook the wood at a high enough heat like 130 and above for one full week.

And yes I have learnt a valuable lesson. No live edge or bark included lumber vet allowed in my shop again.

[Patrick Walsh]

I can’t say for sure it is Powderpost. Actually the seller couldn’t say it was or was not Powderpost either when I told him what I found. After sharing pictures he was pretty adamant that it was not Powderpost.

I’m not taking anyone’s word on this rather opting to just cook the dickens out of the lumber.

As for the talk about how he beetles got in properly kiln dried lumber I don’t know. I can’t say but that’s the info I have.

On topic and interestingly enough I had to go to my local lumber yard this morning to purchase some walnut for a counter top I’m building for a wet bar butlers pantry I built a few weeks back. Anyhow I know the guys at this yard for a long time now. I asked if they have ever seen Powderpost and they I ediately said yes it’s quite common. Actually just last week I was sorting through a Ollie of cherry ply and right in the middle of the stack was a infestation.

My response was you gotta be kidding me what do you guys do when you find this stuff. His response was not much other than dispose of all the material. He added that the facility is just to large to do anything else about it and that they have never had it spread from one pile of lumber to another or a infestation but rather it is not uncommon for them to acquire a pile of lumber and find Powderpost.

So for whatever that is worth we are talking bout plywood and kiln dried lumber and a huge outfit that owns various lumber yards under different names throught the United States.

The cherry lumber in question I acquired from a reputable out of state retailer. It arrived on a semi truck. Honestly I dint think anyone is really to blame here as things do happen. I would like to think the retailers first response would had been ill refund your money burn that stock. In all fairness I have yet to ask him to do anything about it other than help me figure out what kind of bug I have.

Anywho....

[Thomas Marr]

Wow, I didn't realize this was such a problem with non-kiln dried lumber. I was just about ready to purchase a couple thousand feet of lumber direct from the sawmill for $1 / bf (mostly white oak). Guess I need to rethink that or get someone to dry it right away. I've seen this damage before...even in kiln dried Douglas Fir from the lumber yard. Didn't think much about it. Right now, I have just over 1000ish bf of oak, cherry and walnut in the top of my garage waiting on some projects. It's not kiln dried...but is salvaged for old barns and such. It's quite dry and very old. I haven't seen any wood dust piles but I haven't been looking either. Guess I better have a look.

[John K Jordan]

And yes I have learnt a valuable lesson. No live edge or bark included lumber vet allowed in my shop again.

I don't think that will guarantee you are free of power post beetles.

In my experience powder post beetles don't always come in through the bark or the edges, but also by laying eggs in pores in the end grain and small cracks. I actually saw this happen once while I was chainsawing maple outside my garage - beetles flew from the direction of some close woods, landed on the end grain, and started chewing into the surface. The bugs can stay undetected in the wood for months so even with no surface holes there may be beetles inside. Look for the tiny holes from spring until the end of summer the year after the lumber is cut and stacked outside. On the maple I mentioned if I hadn't seen and stopped them the beetles would probably have been in the wood for half a year before I discovered them.

There are several types which may infect different types of wood. The beetles can emerge anywhere leaving tiny holes. One reference says you can use the tip of a ball point pen to distinguish between two common types: "One way to differentiate holes of the two species is to insert a "click-type" (refillable) ball-point pen into the exit hole; only the tip of the ball will fit through a lyctid beetle emergence hole. If the hole was made by an anobiid, the tip of the pen will enter part-way up the angled face of the point. " If the holes are bigger than that they are not PPBs. Mostly under bark and into the sapwood I have seen larger larvae, some leaving holes 1/4" in diameter or larger. I don't worry about these since they don't infect air-drying lumber. They will certainly infect logs on the ground.

Some seem to prefer certain types of hardwoods. For example, once I had cherry, cedar, walnut, oak and yellow poplar boards in close proximity and PPBs got into the poplar and left the others alone. (No poplar boards had bark or live edges)

JKJ

[Ron Citerone]

I don't think that will guarantee you are free of power post beetles.

In my experience powder post beetles don't always come in through the bark or the edges, but also by laying eggs in pores in the end grain and small cracks. I actually saw this happen once while I was chainsawing maple outside my garage - beetles flew from the direction of some close woods, landed on the end grain, and started chewing into the surface. The bugs can stay undetected in the wood for months so even with no surface holes there may be beetles inside. Look for the tiny holes from spring until the end of summer the year after the lumber is cut and stacked outside. On the maple I mentioned if I hadn't seen and stopped them the beetles would probably have been in the wood for half a year before I discovered them.

There are several types which may infect different types of wood. The beetles can emerge anywhere leaving tiny holes. One reference says you can use the tip of a ball point pen to distinguish between two common types: "One way to differentiate holes of the two species is to insert a "click-type" (refillable) ball-point pen into the exit hole; only the tip of the ball will fit through a lyctid beetle emergence hole. If the hole was made by an anobiid, the tip of the pen will enter part-way up the angled face of the point. " If the holes are bigger than that they are not PPBs. Mostly under bark and into the sapwood I have seen larger larvae, some leaving holes 1/4" in diameter or larger. I don't worry about these since they don't infect air-drying lumber. They will certainly infect logs on the ground.

Some seem to prefer certain types of hardwoods. For example, once I had cherry, cedar, walnut, oak and yellow poplar boards in close proximity and PPBs got into the poplar and left the others alone. (No poplar boards had bark or live edges)

JKJ

With the price of hardwood lumber these days, this makes me nervous about buying or storing wood. I always bought air dried lumber and knew there was a risk, but now even kiln dried is suspect.......scary. I was at a hardwood dealer a few weeks ago buying a few boards. Against the wall was leaning a big glued up panel of ash with small bug holes and they were circled with marker............I suspect someone was returning it due to the holes. I see lumber on CL that was stored in a barn 25 years..........I steer clear of that kind of stuff.