Upgrade table saw worth it?

[Clayton Dool]

I currently have a ts3650 with benchdog CI router insert. It works great. Runs smoothly. Have good blade guard with splitter. Probably needs to be re-tuned/aligned after 2 moves, but otherwise still very happy with it. Dust collection probably the only thing wish could improve, especially the router insert (dread using it due to cleanup afterwards).

Been looking at SawStop (please, no negativity here) for many years. Key focus is on safety. I have never had a need or desire to stick my finger into a running saw blade, nor do I ever plan on doing so, thank you! But with that said, I have had a few kickbacks and accidents that makes me very safety cautious. Last was with the gripper in which I was VERY cautious with setup, double checked everything (I thought), but first time I used it the one thing I didn't consider was the opening in the insert (not zero-clearance...just changed out prior) was larger than thin strip, resulting in gripper tilting at cutoff went in and blade catching gripper and sending backwards, chewing bit off one side. That was closest and worst had. Prior, was kickback 10 years ago.

So am very safety conscious, but accidents can and do happen to the best, thus my consideration to upgrade to SawStop. My issue and question is whether truly worth spending $3k for saw, plus more to re-setup router table insert (or buy SS new router insert). Given I am happy with current saw, is it worth the investment just from safety standpoint? I do this as a hobby and am in my garage only few hours each week (yes, need to increase that time). Project wise, I am slow to start and to finish projects, but lined up are some end tables, bedroom set, and bookshelves. The way my other projects have gone, this will keep me out of trouble for the next 3+ years.

Looking for feedback on whether new table saw is worth it or not? Any additional benefit I am not considering?

[Michael Alu]

The way I look at it is how much would it cost for an emergency room trip, surgery, months of physical therapy, and time off of work because of a table saw accident. Add all that up and $3k doesn't even compare. You're basically buying table saw insurance with the SawStop.

Buy once and cry once.

[Marshall Harrison]

In my opinion, Yes.

Safety is worth the money spent. No matter how safe and cautious you are accidents can happen.

Note: you can get cut on a SawStop but if you are moving slowly and deliberately SawStop should keep you from losing your finger/s.

I'm sold on it enough to hold off on getting a table saw until I can afford a SawStop PCS.

[Ted Derryberry]

So the only accidents you've had in 10+ years were kickbacks which a sawstop does nothing to protect you from that any other saw can't also do with the right equipment. You say you're already safety conscious. That's at least 95% of avoiding an accident right there. I'd put the money into something else.

Once, maybe twice, in my life I've knicked my finger tip on a table saw blade. I was young, stupid, impatient, inexperienced, doing something I shouldn't have been (ripping small strips without a push stick), and using about as crappy a benchtop saw as you could find. Neither required more than a band-aid to patch up. A table saw accident is not necessarily the life changing expensive event some would have you believe. That's like saying if you have a fender bender you'll never walk again. Thousands of people die every year in car wrecks. Millions of people a year have car wrecks without any injury whatsoever. If cars were depicted as some depict table saws the roads would be empty.

[Nick Decker]

Love Sawstop, own one myself, but its safety features won't help with things like your Gripper incident or the kickbacks.

[Clayton Dool]

Love Sawstop, own one myself, but its safety features won't help with things like your Gripper incident or the kickbacks.

No, but given my hand was over the saw blade (gripper in hand), things could have gone worse. Even though gripper is a safety device, I still do not like my hand to be above or near saw blade, especially without blade guard. I'm chicken and even more so now.

[Ted Derryberry]

If you're "chicken" then I'd recommend a new hobby.

[Mike Henderson]

Accidents happen to people who are very careful and who have been woodworking for years. Every now and then, someone will post here about a serious accident on their table saw and indicate that they have been woodworking for something like 40 years.

Buying the SawStop is like buying insurance. You hope you never have to use it but you're glad it's there. And with the SawStop, you only pay the insurance charge one time.

Weight the alternatives. If you have an accident without the SawStop, you could face a very large medical bill and lose full use of your finger(s) and/or hand. If you buy the SawStop you pay a bit more for the "insurance" that you hope you never use.

Mike

[Tim M Tuttle]

I currently have a ts3650 with benchdog CI router insert. It works great. Runs smoothly. Have good blade guard with splitter. Probably needs to be re-tuned/aligned after 2 moves, but otherwise still very happy with it. Dust collection probably the only thing wish could improve, especially the router insert (dread using it due to cleanup afterwards).

Been looking at SawStop (please, no negativity here) for many years. Key focus is on safety. I have never had a need or desire to stick my finger into a running saw blade, nor do I ever plan on doing so, thank you! But with that said, I have had a few kickbacks and accidents that makes me very safety cautious. Last was with the gripper in which I was VERY cautious with setup, double checked everything (I thought), but first time I used it the one thing I didn't consider was the opening in the insert (not zero-clearance...just changed out prior) was larger than thin strip, resulting in gripper tilting at cutoff went in and blade catching gripper and sending backwards, chewing bit off one side. That was closest and worst had. Prior, was kickback 10 years ago.

So am very safety conscious, but accidents can and do happen to the best, thus my consideration to upgrade to SawStop. My issue and question is whether truly worth spending $3k for saw, plus more to re-setup router table insert (or buy SS new router insert). Given I am happy with current saw, is it worth the investment just from safety standpoint? I do this as a hobby and am in my garage only few hours each week (yes, need to increase that time). Project wise, I am slow to start and to finish projects, but lined up are some end tables, bedroom set, and bookshelves. The way my other projects have gone, this will keep me out of trouble for the next 3+ years.

Looking for feedback on whether new table saw is worth it or not? Any additional benefit I am not considering?

I spent months researching my first table saw. Started wanting to spend no more than $500 on a jobsite/benchtop saw. The more and more research I did I came to the conclusion that I'll never use anything other than a SawStop and it was worth the up front cost to avoid cutting off my fingers or worse from THE BLADE. Yes, I know kickback can still happen but SawStop eliminates a large, high speed, spinning blade from cutting into your skin and ruining your day, year, life.

One of the tipping points for me was watching a video by Jimmy Diresta where he talked about his table saw accident. That guy has been using power tools for damn near his entire life and in a half second lapse of judgement he made a ridiculously stupid mistake and mangled his hand, almost lost a finger, and is permanently disabled to some extent.

Some people point out that other things can go wrong on a table saw to injure you that a SawStop wont prevent so it's not worth it. Well, you can also slice your finger off with a chisel or circular saw so why buy a SawStop then as well?

Based on my research, when pricing fairly comparable saws, you're paying about $500, give or take, for the safety feature. I ended up with a contractor saw. Now, I don't know enough about saws to really say that a SawStop contractor saw is better/same/worse than a Powermatic or Jet contractor saw. For arguments sake, let's say they are equivalent saws (30" w/"premium" fence, cast iron wings, 1.75 hp motor) aside from the safety feature. The Powermatic is $1600, the Jet is $1400 and the SawStop is $2000. For me, the difference was money well spent.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I currently have a ts3650 with benchdog CI router insert. It works great.

Try ripping some 2" oak at a 45º angle (really 3") and tell me how great it works.
A decent cabinet saw will eat it for lunch. Make sure it has a riving knife.

[Michael Rector]

So the only accidents you've had in 10+ years were kickbacks which a sawstop does nothing to protect you from that any other saw can't also do with the right equipment. You say you're already safety conscious. That's at least 95% of avoiding an accident right there. I'd put the money into something else.

Once, maybe twice, in my life I've knicked my finger tip on a table saw blade. I was young, stupid, impatient, inexperienced, doing something I shouldn't have been (ripping small strips without a push stick), and using about as crappy a benchtop saw as you could find. Neither required more than a band-aid to patch up. A table saw accident is not necessarily the life changing expensive event some would have you believe. That's like saying if you have a fender bender you'll never walk again. Thousands of people die every year in car wrecks. Millions of people a year have car wrecks without any injury whatsoever. If cars were depicted as some depict table saws the roads would be empty.

This is exactly why I bought a car without seat belts, air bags, antilock brakes with a one star crash rating. None of that safety stuff will ever help. I mean if the car is going to kill me nothing I do to mitigate injury will help.


If you're "chicken" then I'd recommend a new hobby.

This is exactly what I tell my friends who refuse to skydive without parachutes. Pansies.

[Steve Mathews]

I was 100% convinced of buying a Sawstop to replace my current cabinet saw. After viewing the following video I'm now 98% convinced. I was originally led to believe that the Sawstop blade would stop before any flesh was cut. Apparently that is not always the case. But on the plus side the guy in the video didn't lose the thumb.

[Larry Frank]

This post was destined to bring out the comments. Your description of the kick back was operator error. If you can operate a table saw 100% of the time safely, you do not need to consider the Sawstop.

Only you can make the choice. I made mine and have a Sawstop PCS and am happy with the choice I made. Given your description of the kickback, you need one.

[Mike Cutler]

Clayton
Get the Sawstop. If it makes you more comfortable, you will feel better and work better. Safety features aside, it's actually a nice saw.

I do not own a Sawstop, nor have I ever used one. I don't have a dog in this fight.
If you can afford it, always buy tools and machines you want to use.

[Clayton Dool]

Thanks everyone for feedback. Sounds like the savings I have going for the SawStop will soon be put to it's intended use. Just waiting for promo from them. If nothing else, maybe it will be good incentive to start woodworking more.

[Ted Derryberry]

This is exactly why I bought a car without seat belts, air bags, antilock brakes with a one star crash rating. None of that safety stuff will ever help. I mean if the car is going to kill me nothing I do to mitigate injury will help.

That's the point, the car isn't necessarily going to kill you. People act like there's a 100% certainty of death if they so much as back out of the driveway without wearing a seatbelt. In fact most people go their entire lives without a serious accident. Table saws are no different, sawstop would have you believe that if you so much as turn on any other saw you're going to cut your hand off. Simply not true. If you carry the "logic" of doing everything possible to mitigate injury then you'll stop woodworking, and driving.


This is exactly what I tell my friends who refuse to skydive without parachutes. Pansies.

That makes no sense at all. If someone is afraid of something they shouldn't do it. Timidity in a potentially dangerous situation greatly increases the chance of an accident. Respect for the situation and confidence prevent accidents. Fear and hesitation causes them.

[Jeff Heath]

I will stay out of the sawstop conversation, except to tell you that if I had the chance to show you a lineup of saws that you could have (not new) for the same money that you would spend on a new sawstop, it would be the last saw of the bunch you would choose.

The best safety feature in your shop is your brain. Learn to make quality push sticks so that your appendages never come close to a spinning tool.

Also, never stand directly behind a piece of wood as you push it through any tool that is spinning at high speed (in this case, a table saw). In the unlikely event of a kickback, it cannot hit you if you are not behind it in the line of fire.

I learned that lesson the hard way 26 years ago with 2 cracked ribs from a kickback. It'll never happen to me again.

[Marshall Harrison]

[QUOTE=Steve Mathews;2780503]I was 100% convinced of buying a Sawstop to replace my current cabinet saw. After viewing the following video I'm now 98% convinced. I was originally led to believe that the Sawstop blade would stop before any flesh was cut. Apparently that is not always the case. But on the plus side the guy in the video didn't lose the thumb.


I think it somewhat depends on how fast you stick your body parts into the blade. Take your time and don't feed to fast.

[Prashun Patel]

IMHO, yes but more because of power and dust collection. The sawstop is a fine saw from a fit and finIsh standpoint. I like the riving knife mechanism and the mobility kit. It is as well made as I, a hobbyist who is willing to spend a little extra when I can for a nice tool, could want.

Put it this way. I consider upgrading my tools when I can because I want to enjoy the bells and whistles and quality, but have not considered upgrading my sawstop PCS

[Nick Decker]

That video seems to be going viral. Notice that he was using a Freud blade with those anti-kickback "humps", which Sawstop recommends against because the brake doesn't stop them as fast.

[Bill Space]

You have decided to upgrade to a higher level saw. Good for you. You will
not regret it.

So it happens to be a SawStop, all the better.

Myself, I can’t believe how much better a real cabinet saw is over the sears contractor saw I used to use exclusively. You are going to be a happy camper when you get the new saw. That is the most important thing...along with the safety advantage.

[glenn bradley]

I have a Saw Stop but, your saw is pretty well reviewed, built with trunnion adjustment in mind and only really lacks a riving knife to reduce your pucker factor. If you are thinking of steppiung up to a 3HP cab version I would go for it. If you are going to get another contractor saw I would wait. You can easily build a box around your router extension wing and get very good collection at the fence and box if you have a decent DC. IF your DC is lacking, a new saw won't really help that ;-)

[John LoDico]

I have the same set up as you -- 3650 with a Benchdog insert. Great little saw, isn't it? But, yes, I'd recommend the upgrade if you can swing it because why the heck not? You'll get a well-built saw with more oomph than we have now plus a little piece of mind. I'd also ignore the few silly comments here, which are rare for such a generally helpful site. Usually people who encounter blades on table saws don't just walk away with a "bandaid." And the very definition of "accident" is something that's unexpected, out of the ordinary -- a thing that occurs even when you're doing your best to avoid it. Happens to the best of us, the bravest of us, the most cautious.

[Mike Henderson]

I was 100% convinced of buying a Sawstop to replace my current cabinet saw. After viewing the following video I'm now 98% convinced. I was originally led to believe that the Sawstop blade would stop before any flesh was cut. Apparently that is not always the case. But on the plus side the guy in the video didn't lose the thumb.


SawStop has been careful in their advertising to state the difference between a SawStop accident and a non-SawStop accident. They show a finger with a scratch and a finger missing.

There's no way to know that your hand got into the blade except for your hand touching the blade. What SawStop does is detect that your {finger,hand,arm,whatever} touched the blade and stop the blade before it can do serious damage to you. My hand came in contact with a SawStop blade and I had a scratch on my thumb. Put a bandaid on it and a new blade and brake on the saw.

Well worth the cost of a new blade and brake when I think that I could have lost my thumb.

Mike

[Ted Derryberry]

I have the same set up as you -- 3650 with a Benchdog insert. Great little saw, isn't it? But, yes, I'd recommend the upgrade if you can swing it because why the heck not? You'll get a well-built saw with more oomph than we have now plus a little piece of mind. I'd also ignore the few silly comments here, which are rare for such a generally helpful site. Usually people who encounter blades on table saws don't just walk away with a "bandaid." And the very definition of "accident" is something that's unexpected, out of the ordinary -- a thing that occurs even when you're doing your best to avoid it. Happens to the best of us, the bravest of us, the most cautious.

He asked for opinions and got them. A bunch of cheerleading and "me toos" is far from helpful.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

"Worth it" and value are very subjective and personal, and depend on individual preferences, circumstances, including budget, and risk appetite.

From my perspective, I believe a cabinet saw is a good upgrade from a functional perspective and in worth the cost assuming you already have other tools that may provide more utility than the upgrade.

From a safety perspective, the sawstop is certainly safer. But you pay for it, both upfront and ongoing cost of replacing cartridges, or risk of replacing cartridges due to misfires. Is it worth it? Not for me at this point. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere. If I didn't have a good dust collector like a 4-5hp cyclone, I'd put my money there first. I "may" cut off a finger but I "will" be breathing in dust without a good extractor. I'll also know if I haven't cut myself whereas I won't be sure what damage i'm doing with dust until it's too late. For me I can sleep better at night eleminating the dust risk as I never lay awake at night worrying about cutting off a finger.

Again, value is too subjective but I'd consider the value of the next best thing to spend the premium of the sawstop on, and see if it brings you more joy or utility or peace of mind. In economics the cost of something is the value of the next best thing or opportunity forgone.

Cheers, Dom

[Robert Chapman]

Not only is a SawStop safer than a non SawStop table saw, the SawStop is also a beautiful, high quality saw. My sincere advice - Buy a SawStop.

[Rick Potter]

Just last week, I took an ambulance ride after a bad fall. No lights and siren, or oxygen {both expensive add ons}. 10 miles total, and the cost was $1800. It gives me a little perspective on cost.

My wife encouraged me to get a SS two years ago. I got a PCS...nice saw.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

Just last week, I took an ambulance ride after a bad fall. No lights and siren, or oxygen {both expensive add ons}. 10 miles total, and the cost was $1800. It gives me a little perspective on cost.

My wife encouraged me to get a SS two years ago. I got a PCS...nice saw.

In Australia the premium paid for a sawstop over similar cabinet saws would pay for ambulance cover for the entire family for life ;), just saying.

I often hear the argument; is your finger or hand worth more than the price of a sawstop? This of course completely ignores statistics, where the cost of the sawstop must be multiplied by the chance/probability of hurting yourself in order for this question to have relevance. So if I estimate that my chance of hurting myself is 1/5000, then my finger would need to be worth $3500 (cost to "upgrade") x 5000 = $17,500,000. Not sure I'd sell it for that but don't think i'd pay that to keep it.

By all accounts they are a good saw and I don't think anyone is wrong to buy one. But they are not for me as I'd rather put my money elsewhere.

Cheers, Dom

[Roger Marty]

[QUOTE=Steve Mathews;2780503]I was 100% convinced of buying a Sawstop to replace my current cabinet saw. After viewing the following video I'm now 98% convinced. I was originally led to believe that the Sawstop blade would stop before any flesh was cut. Apparently that is not always the case. But on the plus side the guy in the video didn't lose the thumb.


The video shows a blade with shoulders, which is not recommended by SawStop because the blade stopping time is longer.

[Darcy Warner]

This is exactly why I bought a car without seat belts, air bags, antilock brakes with a one star crash rating. None of that safety stuff will ever help. I mean if the car is going to kill me nothing I do to mitigate injury will help.



This is exactly what I tell my friends who refuse to skydive without parachutes. Pansies.

I actually prefer my old trucks with out air bags, anti lock brakes and all the other BS that tries to tell me how to drive.

[Marshall Harrison]

I actually prefer my old trucks with out air bags, anti lock brakes and all the other BS that tries to tell me how to drive.

I am okay with airbags and anti-lock brakes. But I'm not sure I want the car stopping itself etc. But I'm okay with SawStop.

[Cary Falk]

I use my table saw on every project. A move to a cabinet saw from a contractor saw is always a worthy upgrade. No matter the brand, I would buy on with a riving knife at the minimum.

[Simon MacGowen]

I am okay with airbags and anti-lock brakes. But I'm not sure I want the car stopping itself etc. But I'm okay with SawStop.

I shared this real story in another thread: A friend of mine hit the back of a truck parked on the shoulder lane when his car was traveling at over 90 miles per hour. He fell asleep behind the wheel after long hours of driving on the highway and after a full lunch(!). He survived but not one of the passengers in the car.

He was driving his two year old Toyota Camry which had the option of the auto-braking system, but he didn't want to pay the extra money. Every day since the accident (last November), he wishes he had either got that option or driven his wife's car (a new Honda Accord which does have the auto-braking feature) that day.

I also know guys who wished they were using a SawStop or not using a tablesaw at all when their saw accidents happened. SawStop is expensive when it is compared to many other saws. So can be woodworking as a hobby. Is it worth spending money on a SawStop, or on a woodworking hobby? It depends on the decision-maker himself or herself. As for myself, I will never ever operate a tablesaw that does not have the finger-saving feature. So if anyone wants to buy a SawStop, it is wonderful.

When I buy my next car, the auto-braking feature plus blind spot warning, lane departure warning, side air bags etc. will be mandatory...even though I have had an incident-free driving record for over 35 years.

Simon

[Mike Null]

I have nothing against SawStop except the price and I know you owners can make mincemeat of that argument if you care to. But I am a woodworker of nearly 60 years. My first saw was a Craftsman and once I got it tuned it was a dandy saw. The fence was lousy and that is what made me upgrade to a Delta hybrid cabinet saw. I liked it very much but a couple of years ago after easing back on my woodworking hobby I sold it. That was too much for me--I needed a table saw--so I bought a Rigid job site model and for the little I do it is more than adequate.

But after all these years of using a table saw, I've had no injuries, a couple of kickback issues which were definitely my fault startled me, but no bad experiences. I am of the school that if you're safety concious you don't need a SS. On the other hand, if I were young and flush I would probably get one.

As others have pointed out, I also wear seat belts.

[BOB OLINGER]

Clayton,

To all those who claim they've never had an accident in "xx" years, my hat off to them. I never had one in like 40+ years, until I ACCIDENTLY moved my right hand too close to the blade when ripping narrow stock - I was using a push stick with my right hand, but was using my left hand to guide/catch the ripped trim. Fortunately, I the blade only glazed my left thumb. However, still a trip to the ER, a few stitches; it was deep enough to sever a tendon so I lost a little feeling in the thumb. But, accidents are called accidents for a reason. Let everyone brag they never had one, if they want - that's not a good reason to resist buying the SawStop. As a result, I bought the 5 HP cabinet SawStop and now enjoying both the safety and performance features.

[glenn bradley]

Nothin' like a good kickback to learn ya right :D

379567

No, its not me.

P.s. Reaching around a spinning blade to steady material that has already past the blade is a very bad practice. God made featherboards or board-buddies for such things.

[Carlos Alvarez]

In Australia the premium paid for a sawstop over similar cabinet saws would pay for ambulance cover for the entire family for life ;), just saying.

I often hear the argument; is your finger or hand worth more than the price of a sawstop? This of course completely ignores statistics, where the cost of the sawstop must be multiplied by the chance/probability of hurting yourself in order for this question to have relevance. So if I estimate that my chance of hurting myself is 1/5000, then my finger would need to be worth $3500 (cost to "upgrade") x 5000 = $17,500,000. Not sure I'd sell it for that but don't think i'd pay that to keep it.

By all accounts they are a good saw and I don't think anyone is wrong to buy one. But they are not for me as I'd rather put my money elsewhere.

Cheers, Dom

Well said. Having a singular safety feature designed just to protect me from being an idiot isn't what I'm shopping for in a saw. It seems to be a fine saw in other respects, but I just don't see the added value of the stop. The number of people cutting off a digit is pretty tiny, and the saw doesn't protect from the more common issues of kickback and such. Which also is nearly always user error. I'm far from perfect, but have a healthy fear of the TS that makes me think through and envision every cut, every time, including where my hands will go.

[Darcy Warner]

I shared this real story in another thread: A friend of mine hit the back of a truck parked on the shoulder lane when his car was traveling at over 90 miles per hour. He fell asleep behind the wheel after long hours of driving on the highway and after a full lunch(!). He survived but not one of the passengers in the car.

He was driving his two year old Toyota Camry which had the option of the auto-braking system, but he didn't want to pay the extra money. Every day since the accident (last November), he wishes he had either got that option or driven his wife's car (a new Honda Accord which does have the auto-braking feature) that day.

I also know guys who wished they were using a SawStop or not using a tablesaw at all when their saw accidents happened. SawStop is expensive when it is compared to many other saws. So can be woodworking as a hobby. Is it worth spending money on a SawStop, or on a woodworking hobby? It depends on the decision-maker himself or herself. As for myself, I will never ever operate a tablesaw that does not have the finger-saving feature. So if anyone wants to buy a SawStop, it is wonderful.

When I buy my next car, the auto-braking feature plus blind spot warning, lane departure warning, side air bags etc. will be mandatory...even though I have had an incident-free driving record for over 35 years.

Simon

So, it was basically his own fault for not practicing safe driving habits. How is this any different from not following safe operating practices on an piece of machinery?

[Ted Derryberry]

Yeah, I should get a sawstop so I can work in the shop while I'm drowsy.

[Michael Sapper]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

[Carlos Alvarez]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

Wow, I had no idea it was that much. I thought the extra was more like $500. At that price, it's pretty ridiculous to even consider the Saw Stop. There are so many other safety items you could get/do for that much money that are actually more likely to hurt you. Such as better dust control.

[Brandon Speaks]

If I ever get around to upgrading my TS it will likely be a saw stop. I have not done detailed analysis comparing features and cost, but from high level observation I think it would be worth it for me. Others may prioritize other features or other uses for that money differently and reach a different conclusion.

[Clayton Dool]

I have the same set up as you -- 3650 with a Benchdog insert. Great little saw, isn't it? But, yes, I'd recommend the upgrade if you can swing it because why the heck not? You'll get a well-built saw with more oomph than we have now plus a little piece of mind. I'd also ignore the few silly comments here, which are rare for such a generally helpful site. Usually people who encounter blades on table saws don't just walk away with a "bandaid." And the very definition of "accident" is something that's unexpected, out of the ordinary -- a thing that occurs even when you're doing your best to avoid it. Happens to the best of us, the bravest of us, the most cautious.

So when are you upgrading?

[Joe Bradshaw]

I, like, many of was opposed to SS because of the business tactics of the inventor. I had a perfectly good Unisaw that I really liked. In Feb. of 2013 a moment of inattention caused me to swing my left pointer finger across the blade. I had a diagonal cut across the nail. Afterwards, I went through my actions realized that instead of lifting my hand, I had started to turn to the left for another piece of stock. Afterwards, my GF told meto get rid of the saw. Which I did. The inventors aside, the SS is a really well built piece of equipment. I have been happy with mine. I think that I have become more safety conscious when using the SS. I don't want to have to buy a new and cartridge. I did learn that while you are in the ER getting sewn up, don't tell funny jokes to your medical people. They start laughing and giggling and jerking around and poke the needles everywhere. As to the price, it's like buying a Robust lathe as opposed to Say a Jet lathe. Both are fine products and will get the job done. But, one will give you more satisfaction at the end of the day.
Joe

[Clayton Dool]

Thanks everyone for fantastic feedback. I am going to go ahead and get the SawStop. Again, while I am happy with my TS3650, I think the extra safety features would be a good piece of mind. And since I do have the money saved up, guess time to bite the bullet. Buy once, cry once. So easy to window shop, but come time to hand over the money it is so hard. Fingers crossed ss will have a promo this year, like they have constantly in the past. Now that they are owned by Festool's parent company, will see if it affects anything.

Unfortunately, space is becoming limited in my 2 car garage. Between 8" jointer (nicknamed the "aircraft carrier"), table saw, planer, tormek, bandsaw, and more fun toys, I am running out of space. And for my own personal safety, am staying away from the 3rd bay where wife parks, else she starts impersonating Achmed (Jeff Dunham)..."I Kill You". So have to sell existing saw before I can consider buying new one. But new tools is worth the hassles, right?

[Clayton Dool]

I, like, many of was opposed to SS because of the business tactics of the inventor. I had a perfectly good Unisaw that I really liked. In Feb. of 2013 a moment of inattention caused me to swing my left pointer finger across the blade. I had a diagonal cut across the nail. Afterwards, I went through my actions realized that instead of lifting my hand, I had started to turn to the left for another piece of stock. Afterwards, my GF told meto get rid of the saw. Which I did. The inventors aside, the SS is a really well built piece of equipment. I have been happy with mine. I think that I have become more safety conscious when using the SS. I don't want to have to buy a new and cartridge. I did learn that while you are in the ER getting sewn up, don't tell funny jokes to your medical people. They start laughing and giggling and jerking around and poke the needles everywhere. As to the price, it's like buying a Robust lathe as opposed to Say a Jet lathe. Both are fine products and will get the job done. But, one will give you more satisfaction at the end of the day.
Joe

Making others laugh sounds like what I would do. I feel that even when in pain or in worst moments in life, I would rather smile and make others smile. My father was the same, so even when he was given less than week to live, he and I joked about it and made best of it...while my mother stood there thinking we were morbid.

But I am glad your accident wasn't that serious (loss of finger).

And for everyone else who has shared their storied on accidents, thank you. I appreciate everyone's input. Good to hear we are all focused on safety, but also to know that even at our best, accidents can occur.

[Jacob Mac]

I recently went through the same process you are going through. I finally decided on a Grizzly G0690. Here's why, I will always use a bandsaw, router, or hand tools whenever I can instead of a table saw. So it isn't quite as central to my work as it is with others. I have an overhead guard I use whenever possible, which I feel makes the saw safer. I always use push blocks, feather boards etc when required. I also don't reach over blades or get my hands close to the saw.

With all those things in mind, and my desire to get a cyclone, mini split and new bandsaw in my shop, I opted to save a little cash. I decided I could minimize risk by other means. It was a tough decision, and I sure hope I am right.

With all that said, I think the sawstop is a great saw, and buying one makes a lot of sense to me. If you have a fully outfitted shop, I doubt you would regret it

[Simon MacGowen]

I have nothing against SawStop except the price and I know you owners can make mincemeat of that argument if you care to. But I am a woodworker of nearly 60 years.

But after all these years of using a table saw, I've had no injuries, a couple of kickback issues which were definitely my fault startled me, but no bad experiences. I am of the school that if you're safety concious you don't need a SS. On the other hand, if I were young and flush I would probably get one.

As others have pointed out, I also wear seat belts.

I am not sure about your suggestion that if one has more woodworking mileage to go, or younger/less experienced woodworkers would need the SS more.

Researches have shown that older people are more prone to accidents and injuries (for a lot of reasons, of course), and if you ask me (I am not too old yet by today's standards), I think the older we are, the more protection we need to compensate for our decrease in our ability to respond, etc.

My point is not specific to the SawStop discussion. One study found fatality rate for drivers over 85 is four times higher than for teenagers.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

So, it was basically his own fault for not practicing safe driving habits. How is this any different from not following safe operating practices on an piece of machinery?

The story is not about assigning blame or fault. He readily admitted his responsibility (the Police found no skid marks or any attempt to stop the car (based on the dashboard camera). He drove for a living before he retired and had done countless highway trips (ring a bell? 45+ years of woodworking without one single injury...).

The difference between a car with an auto-breaking feature (or a tablesaw with a SS) and one without is IF and WHEN accidents happen, the damage would be minimized. In my pal's case, the auto-breaking could have prevented a fatality, and in many SS incidents recorded or reported, amputations have been avoided.

In terms of kickbacks, the SS has one of the best riving knife designs to keep kickback incidents to a minimum. Some people like to describe SS as a saw good for avoiding amputations but bad for preventing kickbacks.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Unfortunately, space is becoming limited in my 2 car garage. Between 8" jointer (nicknamed the "aircraft carrier"), table saw, planer, tormek, bandsaw, and more fun toys, I am running out of space. And for my own personal safety, am staying away from the 3rd bay where wife parks, else she starts impersonating Achmed (Jeff Dunham)..."I Kill You". So have to sell existing saw before I can consider buying new one. But new tools is worth the hassles, right?

May not be the path you want to go. My old neighbor downsized and moved to a two car garage shop, like yours. He sold his jointer when he moved and just kept the thickness planer which he now uses for face-jointing boards.

For edge jointing? Use your tuned SawStop!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Wow, I had no idea it was that much. I thought the extra was more like $500. At that price, it's pretty ridiculous to even consider the Saw Stop. There are so many other safety items you could get/do for that much money that are actually more likely to hurt you. Such as better dust control.

The price difference he quoted is for HIS version of SS. A 7.5HP 3 phase SS with all the available accessories installed, for example (last workplace), can cost a lot of money for sure. SS has different entry price levels, not much different when you go shop a BMW or Lexus. One could buy a house for the price of a top-end BMW...but then there are many low-end BMWs on the road.

Simon

[Ray Newman]

Clayton Dool: today I received the Woodcraft monthly flyer.

Advertised was the yearly SawStop free upgrades -- either the overarm dust collection or the integrated mobile base --for any new professional cabinet saw sold between March 1 - April 30, 2018.

[Frank Pratt]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

Pretty hard to put an exact number on it, but when I got my 3 HP PCS a few years ago I figured is was less than $500 premium for the SawStop. Aside from the Euro kit, the only thing I saw (pun intended) that was comparable quality wise was PowerMatic. I didn't go that way because of frequently reported problems with the mobile base & a really horrible pre-sale customer service experience.

[Mike Henderson]

I've owned my SS for about 4 years (upgraded from a 20 year old Delta contractors saw). I always get a chuckle when I see these threads about the "worth" in purchasing a SS over another brand. The SS premium over another brand of similar quality is about $1,200usd give or take. With the added safety feature you get for that premium, it's almost negligent not to get the SS. (and yes $1,200 is a lot of money, I get that).

I purchased a PCS and I know it was not more than $500 compared to a comparable saw. But my fingers, and the ability to use them the way I'm accustomed to, are priceless.

Mike

[Brett Luna]

I upgraded from a low end contractor saw to the SawStop 3hp PCS and it was heckyeahyoubetcha worth it to me. Some people hate 'em and I don't give a rat's tiny puckered poop shooter. During my USAF career, I maintained jet fighter avionics with lasers that'll put your eye out kid. I supervised hot rearming and refueling operations, I towed aircraft, and I toted guns. I'm still a shooting enthusiast. Safety has been the constant thread through all of it. Me, I'll opt for a layered approach to safety that includes both sound methods and physical safeguards.

[Rick Potter]

About the price difference...When I got my PCS two years ago at Rockler, I asked the manager about the cost of other 3HP cabinet saws. He said that either the PM 2000, or the Delta Unisaw was more than the 3HP PCS with the good 36" fence, like I got. It was during the annual sale, that got me a free PCS mobile base I never used. Mine sits on a 4" high permanent base.


PS: I got curious, and checked Amazon prices. All are 3HP, 30-36" tables with Beis clone fences.

PM 1000.... $2049
Jet............ 2349
Delta Unisaw... 2599
SawStop PCS... 2899
PM 2000...... 3371
SawStop ICS.... 4267

[Steve Demuth]

So the only accidents you've had in 10+ years were kickbacks which a sawstop does nothing to protect you from that any other saw can't also do with the right equipment. You say you're already safety conscious. That's at least 95% of avoiding an accident right there. I'd put the money into something else.

Once, maybe twice, in my life I've knicked my finger tip on a table saw blade. I was young, stupid, impatient, inexperienced, doing something I shouldn't have been (ripping small strips without a push stick), and using about as crappy a benchtop saw as you could find. Neither required more than a band-aid to patch up. A table saw accident is not necessarily the life changing expensive event some would have you believe. That's like saying if you have a fender bender you'll never walk again. Thousands of people die every year in car wrecks. Millions of people a year have car wrecks without any injury whatsoever. If cars were depicted as some depict table saws the roads would be empty.

It's true that most table saw accidents don't put people in hospital, just as most car accidents don't. I"ve had both and never been hospitalized as a result. But it's also true that tens of thousands of lives are saved and grievous injuries prevented every year by automated safety devices like airbags in cars every year, and tens of thousands more die. Likewise, many table saw accidents do put people in hospital, and cost them digits, limbs or function. Surgeons at my hospital have re-attached more than one entire forearm in the last couple of years due to table saw accidents that would have been minor incidents on a Sawstop. That's multiple young, working men who will suffer months of surgery and healing, and never have full use of one of their hands again.

I don't care whether you love or hate Sawstop, own one or wouldn't be caught dead in a shop with one. That's your business. But dismissing the injuries caused by table saws because many are not serious, and the value Sawstop has in preventing the many serious injuries that do occur is just too bad.

[Simon MacGowen]

It's true that most table saw accidents don't put people in hospital, just as most car accidents don't. I"ve had both and never been hospitalized as a result. But it's also true that tens of thousands of lives are saved and grievous injuries prevented every year by automated safety devices like airbags in cars every year, and tens of thousands more die. Likewise, many table saw accidents do put people in hospital, and cost them digits, limbs or function. Surgeons at my hospital have re-attached more than one entire forearm in the last couple of years due to table saw accidents that would have been minor incidents on a Sawstop. That's multiple young, working men who will suffer months of surgery and healing, and never have full use of one of their hands again.

I don't care whether you love or hate Sawstop, own one or wouldn't be caught dead in a shop with one. That's your business. But dismissing the injuries caused by table saws because many are not serious, and the value Sawstop has in preventing the many serious injuries that do occur is just too bad.

Over the years, I found there are only two types of woodworkers when it comes to shop safety: the invincible and the rest of the world. Obviously, all SawStop users and owners, and those wanting be a SS user or owner belong to the second group.

Some anti-SS woodworkers are not just against the inventor or the SS company (at least the former SS Co.), but they are also trying to convince other people to stay away from it, even if those people can afford it.

Some of them also like to say the SS does not deal with kickbacks, which of course is a fake argument. Others use the "look, I have ten digits after x no. of years of woodworking" logic to convince themselves and others that it is a "sin" to have a finger saving technology on their -- on any -- tablesaws. I even saw one guy suggesting (in early days) that SS was sued because it failed to work. Then, someone would come out and say the SS is only a mediocre saw, despite the fact they have never even used the saw...other than watching a hot dog demo...on youtube!

All it boils down really to one thing (hint: un-related to safety): they don't like how Gass went about promoting his technology and business, while conveniently dismissing/forgetting/ignoring what caused Gass to pursue a business strategy as he did. Or turning a blind eye to many other businesses -- including many powerful drug companies -- that have been doing what Gass was seen to be doing for decades and decades. These same people won't say from now on, I won't take any medication.

It is a good stand to say I hate Gass' business ethics or whatever, but it is another thing to try to belittle his invention and to try to persuade others from getting it, because Gass would benefit financially. We are talking about injuries and as human beings, we should help each other keep that to a minimum.

I hope the new owner will put the SS technology in more machines and tools (first Festool SS tablesaw? or first Festool SS mitre saw?).

Simon

[Tim M Tuttle]

I hope the new owner will put the SS technology in more machines and tools (first Festool SS tablesaw? or first Festool SS mitre saw?).

Simon

Wasn't that his original mission and they all told him to get lost? I was in his shoes I'd throw every extra dollar I had at anyone trying to infringe on my patent. The CPSC stuff...eh, not a huge fan of that.

[John Sanford]

Is it worth it? I thought it was, so I upgraded from a honest to goodness American made Delta Contractor's Saw to the SawStop 3hp PCS.

You can hang the Benchdog router table right on it without any trouble, at least I didn't have any trouble with mine. If you decide to get the SS, they are running a promotion currently, you can get either their older overarm dust collection boom or the PCS mobility kit. Go for the boom, and if you need mobility, spring for the Industrial kit. The 360 maneuverability is far better than 2 swivel 2 fixed of the PCS kit.

I have been very happy with the saw, and save for getting the mobility kit rather than the boom, there's nothing I would do differently.

[Clayton Dool]

Right now trying to decide if sell the benchdog in combo with old saw and buy the new Sawstop router insert or not. Figure can get $200 for it. SS's inline is $499 + 160 filler piece for 36" saw (they hide that filler cost detail till you start building/pricing it out). If hand on left side of saw, it will make saw wider, but won't have to deal with the inline piece. Prefer left, but extra width may be hindrance. Also, have to lower my workbench to 34" height to match saw; currently at 36.5 to match my existing saw (and I am 5'11"). In end, looking at pcs 3hp 36" with ics base, overarm dust (promo), and inline router wing.

[Simon MacGowen]

Right now trying to decide if sell the benchdog in combo with old saw and buy the new Sawstop router insert or not. Figure can get $200 for it. SS's inline is $499 + 160 filler piece for 36" saw (they hide that filler cost detail till you start building/pricing it out). If hand on left side of saw, it will make saw wider, but won't have to deal with the inline piece. Prefer left, but extra width may be hindrance. Also, have to lower my workbench to 34" height to match saw; currently at 36.5 to match my existing saw (and I am 5'11"). In end, looking at pcs 3hp 36" with ics base, overarm dust (promo), and inline router wing.

You won't find a better overarm dust collection from any other cabinet saws than the SS's. The new overarm pipe is no where near the overarm tube in terms of ease of use as the latter does not require any adjustments for any cuts -- unless you resaw thin strips and have to remove it. The new overarm, heavy pipe requires constant adjustments either in its height or width.

If you do not have a powerful dust collector (at least 2 HP or more) for both under the table and over arm dust collection, you can connect the overarm dust collection to a shop vac.

I now use the saw without wearing any dust mask, unless making edge cuts. Even MDFs pose zero dust concerns in regular cuts.

Simon

[Bill Space]

About the price difference...When I got my PCS two years ago at Rockler, I asked the manager about the cost of other 3HP cabinet saws. He said that either the PM 2000, or the Delta Unisaw was more than the 3HP PCS with the good 36" fence, like I got. It was during the annual sale, that got me a free PCS mobile base I never used. Mine sits on a 4" high permanent base.


PS: I got curious, and checked Amazon prices. All are 3HP, 30-36" tables with Beis clone fences.

PM 1000.... $2049
Jet............ 2349
Delta Unisaw... 2599
SawStop PCS... 2899
PM 2000...... 3371
SawStop ICS.... 4267


Rick,

just to add to your list, here are two Grizzly saws that seem to get great reviews. (I own a G1023RLWX and love it) both 3 HP with 30-36” rails.

G0690..... $1,750
G1023RL....$1,475

Bill