Brian's guide to the galaxy (Japanese chisels)

[Brian Holcombe]

I put together a layman’s guide to Japanese chisels. I will improve upon this as I can. I will refer people to this when they email or PM me asking about Japanese chisels so if anything is glaringly incorrect please feel free to comment. I wrote this in about 15 minutes this morning in between laps around the house chasing a 3 yr old.

Have a look:

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/guide-to-japanese-chisels/

[Patrick Chase]

Brian, I'm disappointed. I searched that post for the phrases "don't panic", "42", "vogon", "ford prefect", and a few others besides and and came up empty. That being the case I feel that "guide to the galaxy" constitutes false and misleading advertising. If Elon Musk can shoot a car to Mars with "Don't Panic" displaying on the infotainment system then the least you can do is a throwaway reference or two in your "Guide to the Galaxy" blog post.

Great overview BTW :-)

Interesting that Koyamaichi is missing from your list of recommended brands, given their popularity here in the states. Do you not have experience with their tools, or are they just not competitive with the others?

[Tom Bender]

A few years ago I bought a set by Matsumura, similar to the ones you show. I use them often and am pleased with them except for one feature that all others seem to share. The handles are round. Fine for wide but bad for narrow chisels, as they tend to roll off the bench and so require some management. If the handles were more square that problem would be resolved and it would give the hands a quick registration, but no, a sense of oneness with the tool.

[steven c newman]

I don't mind "roundness" in a handle....when I am using the two or three needed for a job....the other two reside in the near benchdog hole.
BTW..Uncle Arthur (itis) in the hands, doesn't mind grabbing a round handle....YMMV

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, I'm disappointed. I searched that post for the phrases "don't panic", "42", "vogon", "ford prefect", and a few others besides and and came up empty. That being the case I feel that "guide to the galaxy" constitutes false and misleading advertising. If Elon Musk can shoot a car to Mars with "Don't Panic" displaying on the infotainment system then the least you can do is a throwaway reference or two in your "Guide to the Galaxy" blog post.

Great overview BTW :-)

Interesting that Koyamaichi is missing from your list of recommended brands, given their popularity here in the states. Do you not have experience with their tools, or are they just not competitive with the others?

Haha, I fixed that just now.

I like them just fine, and they recommended plenty enough but I mainly prefer white 1 chisels.

Added some info about steel and handles.

[Patrick Chase]

Haha, I fixed that just now.

There, now you have your mandatory 15 pieces of flair. Well done!

[Pat Barry]

My main question about Japanese chisel is why you feel they are better than something like LV bench chisel? Why are they worth the extra cost?

[Jim Koepke]

Ichou-gata nomi are fishtail chisels, they’re very commonly used to aide in half-blade dovetail cutting.

Has something passed me by? What is a half-blade dovetail?

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I like them just fine, and they recommended plenty enough but I mainly prefer white 1 chisels.

How much of an impact do you find that difference of 0.2% C to have on real-world performance? (~1.3% in White 1 vs ~1.1% in the otherwise identical White 2).

Koyamaichi specs their White 2 irons at Rc65-66, so it seems that they're able to hit more or less the same hardness. Based on the amount of excess Carbon above the eutectoid solubility limit, I would expect White 1 to contain about 1.7X as much Cementite (iron carbide), which would tend to make it more wear resistant. Is that what you see?

Sorry, I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer tool steel design and selection.

[Brian Holcombe]

There, now you have your mandatory 15 pieces of flair. Well done!

Thank you kindly!


My main question about Japanese chisel is why you feel they are better than something like LV bench chisel? Why are they worth the extra cost?

I have never used LV chisels so I really can't say. I know I like Japanese chisels and value is subjective and individual. It was worth it to me at one time to spend considerably more on paring chisels than I would probably would currently but I'm glad that I did as I enjoy them.


Has something passed me by? What is a half-blade dovetail?

jtk

Thanks Jim, fixed that!


How much of an impact do you find that difference of 0.2% C to have on real-world performance? (~1.3% in White 1 vs ~1.1% in the otherwise identical White 2).

Koyamaichi specs their White 2 irons at Rc65-66, so it seems that they're able to hit more or less the same hardness. Based on the amount of excess Carbon above the eutectoid solubility limit, I would expect White 1 to contain about 1.7X as much Cementite (iron carbide), which would tend to make it more wear resistant. Is that what you see?

Sorry, I can't resist trying to reverse-engineer tool steel design and selection.

That must be what I am seeing, because it is a different experience than white 2. It's harder to sharpen on a natural stone, but also harder to wear out in use. It takes a considerable amount of use for any of these chisels to form a noticeable burr in normal use.

[andy bessette]

Well done. And nice looking website.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Andy!

[Pat Barry]

Maybe someone who has experience with both traditional and Japanese chisel could comment about what is better with Japanese chisels. Maybe Warren or Derek for example?

[William Fretwell]

I only have two Japanese Chisels (white steel Oiire Nomi) but they hold a very sharp edge much longer than any of my various western chisels (except Barr). For deep mortises they are a bit short to work with, otherwise they are a pleasure to use.
I'm not looking forward to tapping them out, not had to do that yet.

[Derek Cohen]

Pat, I am not an expert, but I will offer an observation about the bench chisels.

First of all, in my limited experience, the chisels that hold an edge for the longest time chopping dovetails are Japanese Koyamaichi. There are better nomi around, but I have yet to use a better Western chisel (in terms of steel) than Veritas PM-V11 (no, I have not used vintage English steel from the 18 hundreds, and so I cannot comment). The edge holding of a Koyamaichi is better than the edge holding of the Veritas. Further, this does not come with any sharpening limitations. It is all in the hammered preparation of the blade, its lamination, and the hardness of the cutting angle. The steel of my Kiyohisa is superior still to the Koyamaichi. these blades sharpen so easily, yet hold an edge forever (OK, you know what I mean). Now, as we go up the ladder, we find progressively better blades. What is important to recognise is that even the cheap Japanese nomi are capable of superior performance. I have really middle-of-the-road (by Western standards) Oiire-nomi that I purchased 20 years ago, and they have excellent blades that have never chipped.

The question asked is why do I then also use Western chisels ... why not just stick to Japanese? The answer is that the Japanese chisels are my preferred chisels for chopping, such as chopping out dovetails in hardwoods. Their bench chisels, and this includes the "dovetail" chisels, are designed to be used with a gennou. They should be seen as a team. Yes, you can chop with a Western chisel, but the Japanese chisel has a lower centre of gravity, and is designed to be struck with a steel hammer, the gennou. This method affords great precision. The chisel is held in position and the gennou creates the down force. There is no wandering of the hand or the handle. Again yes, this is not the sole domain of the Japanese chisel, but it is their prime method of use.

Western chisels make better all rounders than Japanese chisels - you can hit them or push them, and they are more comfortable to hold than the Japanese oirie nomi, which is hooped.

No doubt we will hear from Stanley. He is the expert here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stanley Covington]

Pat, I am not an expert, but I will offer an observation about the bench chisels.

First of all, in my limited experience, the chisels that hold an edge for the longest time chopping dovetails are Japanese Koyamaichi. There are better nomi around, but I have yet to use a better Western chisel (in terms of steel) than Veritas PM-V11 (no, I have not used vintage English steel from the 18 hundreds, and so I cannot comment). The edge holding of a Koyamaichi is better than the edge holding of the Veritas. Further, this does not come with any sharpening limitations. It is all in the hammered preparation of the blade, its lamination, and the hardness of the cutting angle. The steel of my Kiyohisa is superior still to the Koyamaichi. these blades sharpen so easily, yet hold an edge forever (OK, you know what I mean). Now, as we go up the ladder, we find progressively better blades. What is important to recognize is that even the cheap Japanese nomi are capable of superior performance. I have really middle-of-the-road (by Western standards) Oiire-nomi that I purchased 20 years ago, and they have excellent blades that have never chipped.

The question asked is why do I then also use Western chisels ... why not just stick to Japanese? The answer is that the Japanese chisels are my preferred chisels for chopping, such as chopping out dovetails in hardwoods. Their bench chisels, and this includes the "dovetail" chisels, are designed to be used with a gennou. They should be seen as a team. Yes, you can chop with a Western chisel, but the Japanese chisel has a lower centre of gravity, and is designed to be struck with a steel hammer, the gennou. This method affords great precision. The chisel is held in position and the gennou creates the down force. There is no wandering of the hand or the handle. Again yes, this is not the sole domain of the Japanese chisel, but it is their prime method of use.

Western chisels make better all rounders than Japanese chisels - you can hit them or push them, and they are more comfortable to hold than the Japanese oirie nomi, which is hooped.

No doubt we will hear from Stanley. He is the expert here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek:

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Pat:

The Japanese chisel is simply a better, and much more sophisticated design, with more antique but superior metallurgy, and typically better executed . One needs to use them before this becomes clear.

And yes, the hooped chisels are hard on the hands for lots of pushing. Some people remove the hoops entirely if they do mainly paring. But Japanese paring chisels are an elegant and very effective solution to this shortcoming, IMO.

The steel used varies from maker to maker and chisel style to chisel style. The consumer-grade ones are made from SK5, which is a standard run-of-the-mill (kinda-) high-carbon steel very similar to O1 or 02, but a little purer (no chrome). The better ones are made from even purer types of high-carbon steel. Better steels, combined with hand-forging (improves the grain structure and makes the cutting edge more durable) makes their cutting and sharpening performance unsurpassed by anything being produced nowadays. Sharpness and durability, however, come at a price, which is harder steel. A chisel made from one piece of steel and hardened to the necessary degree would break. Guaranteed. The iron/low-carbon steel body of the traditional Japanese chisel keeps the hardened steel cutting edge from breaking. This is part of the excellent design I touched on above. Anyway, it is the hardness of the cutting edge, its durability, and the ease of sharpening that differentiate Japanese chisels from Western chisels.

It wasn't always that way. American and English blades from the 1800's were hand-forged from high-carbon steel, and some of them cut and sharpened very very well indeed, in my experience. But they aren't as hard as Japanese chisels because of the breakage risk. And you can't buy those blades new anymore. Chinese peasants working in factories are not experienced blacksmiths, and cannot produce products of similar quality, or even appearance, using high-carbon steel.

I have not used the powdered metal chisels, but I own and use knives made from similar metals. They are very durable, and don't rust as easily, but they don't get as sharp as, and are more difficult to sharpen than White Paper or Blue Paper steels. Powdered metals have lots of advantages, as I know from my day-job, but the biggest are consistency (QC) , ease of mass-production, and the ability to create relatively complex shapes (like gears) in pressure molds to high tolerances and with very little machining. Chisels are not a complex shape. Consistency (QC) is nice since sintered metals make possible and economical some amazing alloys difficult to produce in a pot. But do the alloys make a better chisel? Ease of manufacture is great if it translates to lower prices. But performance is what matters the most, and only you can decide what it is for you. I suggest you buy good examples of drop-forged chisels, cast chisels, powdered metal chisels, and hand-forged high-carbon chisels and try them out.

I own 30 or so chisels by Kiyotada (Shimamura), and another 15 or so by Ichihiro (Hidari-no-ichihiro = Yamazaki). I met these blacksmiths, and we talked about chisels and steel. They custom-made my chisels for me 30+ years ago. I learned how to use them and maintain them from professionals. I used them professionally for a number of years to feed wife and babies. A famous metallurgist named Iwasaki wrote that Kiyotada's chisels were the best ever made in Japan. These are standard by which I judge all chisels.

Before Kiyotada and Ichihiro, I owned and used a number of famous brand chisels, including products from the Miki companies like Koyamaichi, Ouchi, etc.. Too soft for my taste, so I sold them all after getting my hands on Kiyotada and Ichihiro products. Later, I found myself back in Japan without chisels and bought a set of Kiyohisa oirenomi. They were White Paper #1, and quite expensive, so I had high expectations. I was told they were the best available since Kiyotada and Ichihiro had both gone to the big woodpile in the sky. Most of the Kiyohisa chisels were disgustingly soft. Others chipped like Tiger Woods. I went on the hunt for blacksmiths that produced professional-grade chisels at a reasonable price, and found that there are still a few old-boys making chisels for people that use chisels. I sold the Kiyohisa set for a profit.

Anyway, the last 2 paragraphs have nothing to do with your question, Pat. Suffice it to say that, in general, Japanese chisels are worth owning and using. There is a bit of a learning curve, but it is worth it.

Stan

[Warren Mickley]

Maybe someone who has experience with both traditional and Japanese chisel could comment about what is better with Japanese chisels. Maybe Warren or Derek for example?

I have never owned a Japanese chisel. However I would say that the Japanese chisels are made for craftsmen and the current Western chisels are made for hobbyists and engineers.

The recent thread on Ray Isles mortise chisels is a good example. He made these the biggest and heaviest mortise chisels around. Why? He made them with a goofy bevel system that would keep one from riding the bevel (riding the bevel is helpful for accuracy), that destroys the wedging action of the chisel (helpful for speed) and destroys the heel (which we use for levering loose waste). And he made them with some horrible steel, which we could do without. The proponents of these chisels talk about bashing them, womping them, abusing them etc. You won't hear Brian talking about his mortise chisels that way.

[Patrick Chase]

I have not used the powdered metal chisels, but I own and use knives made from similar metals. They are very durable, and don't rust as easily, but they don't get as sharp as, and are more difficult to sharpen than White Paper or Blue Paper steels. Powdered metals have lots of advantages, as I know from my day-job, but the biggest are consistency (QC) , ease of mass-production, and the ability to create relatively complex shapes (like gears) in pressure molds to high tolerances and with very little machining. Chisels are not a complex shape. Consistency (QC) is nice since sintered metals make possible and economical some amazing alloys difficult to produce in a pot. But do the alloys make a better chisel? Ease of manufacture is great if it translates to lower prices. But performance is what matters the most, and only you can decide what it is for you.

The advantages you cite are all valid, but you're missing another much more important one: In a sintered metal the initial solidification (from liquid phase to solid) happens during the atomization process, and is basically isothermal. A lot of the "bad stuff" in conventional steels (grain, dendritic structure, voids, etc) arises from non-isothermal solidification and is inherently much less of an issue or even a non-issue in powder metallurgy. Deploying my favorite reference yet again, read Ch 15 (p. 159) here (http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf) and then imagine the possibilities if none of that happens.

The bottom line is that the main reason to use PM in tools is in fact for performance. As you say the other aspects don't really come into play because of the fundamental simplicity of the common tool forms.

BTW, forging is fundamentally done to eliminate or re-arrange otherwise undesirable structures (particularly inter-dendritic voids) that arise in non-isothermal solidification. Verhoevern goes into this a bit in the chapter I cited. Of course it's human nature to convince ourselves that such necessities are actually virtues, but as always we must ask ourselves if they're still virtuous once the underlying defect that created the need to begin with has been banished :-).

None of this should be taken as denigrating Japanese tools or the way they are made. As Stan knows better than anyone right now I perceive a great amount of value in quality hand-made tools, and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I simply think that at the same time as we celebrate those, we shouldn't blind ourselves to other avenues to create good tools.

[Philipp Jaindl]

This is a very interessting thread, i've never used a Japanese chisel before, even though id love to try them the better makers are just way out of my budget range.

I have no trouble seeing why people prefer the laminated blades. I own some very old laminated Planeblades and love the Edge they take and hold, i can imagine its even better at the very high HRC of the japanese blades.

[Matt Lau]

Hey Pat,

I have to say that Stan is probably the most experienced guy here with both Western and Japanese chisels by a mile. While there's guys like George Wilson that may be more experienced with Western Chisels, there's nobody as knowledgeable on Japanese ones.

All I can say is that my first Japanese chisels (cheapest ones from Japan Woodworker in Alameda) spoilt me on anything lesser....and Stan's "budget" chisels are far better than any others that I've used. They're sharper, easier to sharpen, hold an edge better, and cut truer.

-Matt

[Matt Lau]

Hey Philipp,

I don't know how to use the PM system on Sawmill creek, but I'd be happy to ship you a Koyaimachi chisel for $20 + postage (I bought a few spares on a new year's sale from Stu). However, I think that you'd get a much better chisel if you contact Stan Covington directly.

Anyways, hope I didn't break some rules here.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Thanks so much for this. After the recent fire in So Cal ate my chisels I've been wanting to replace them with good Japanese chisels.
I've just been putting off bugging you or Stan for a recommendation. Now it's go-time.

[Pat Barry]

I'd like to thank folks for the info on Japanese chisels. Knowing they are for craftsmen and not hobbyists is good news to me :) will save me money in the long run.

[Tony Wilkins]

Wen I first started, I thought Japanese tools were going to be the way for me to go. I got a 6mm Masashige (sp?) from Hida and a couple of water stones from them. Unfortunately, the two went together for my first goes at sharpening. I successfully managed to accomplish a 1/4 skew with a combination microbevel/rounding — all totally unintentional. I’ve tried on occasion to put it right but so far it isn’t what I’d expect to be a good cutter.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks so much for this. After the recent fire in So Cal ate my chisels I've been wanting to replace them with good Japanese chisels.
I've just been putting off bugging you or Stan for a recommendation. Now it's go-time.

Sorry to hear about the fire, but glad to hear that you found this helpful.


Wen I first started, I thought Japanese tools were going to be the way for me to go. I got a 6mm Masashige (sp?) from Hida and a couple of water stones from them. Unfortunately, the two went together for my first goes at sharpening. I successfully managed to accomplish a 1/4 skew with a combination microbevel/rounding — all totally unintentional. I’ve tried on occasion to put it right but so far it isn’t what I’d expect to be a good cutter.

Straighten it out with a cheap jig, then practice again how to sharpen by hand.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Hey Philipp,

I don't know how to use the PM system on Sawmill creek, but I'd be happy to ship you a Koyaimachi chisel for $20 + postage (I bought a few spares on a new year's sale from Stu). However, I think that you'd get a much better chisel if you contact Stan Covington directly.

Anyways, hope I didn't break some rules here.

you just need to Left-click the name of the user and select Private message Matt.


Anyways Brian you mention that the Genno is specially made just for striking Chisels, I'm curious whats the difference between a Genno and an ordinary Steel Hammer ? Is it softer or maybe a differently shaped striking face?

[Bill McNiel]

Brian,
Thank you very much for this posting. The opportunity to get information from someone who has no agenda but is knowledgeable on the subject matter is the main reason I contribute to SawmillCreek.
Mahalo - Bill

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Brian, good info on this subject.
Do you have any experience with Belgische Brochen or Belgian chuncks which are more common in europe ?

[Brian Holcombe]

you just need to Left-click the name of the user and select Private message Matt.


Anyways Brian you mention that the Genno is specially made just for striking Chisels, I'm curious whats the difference between a Genno and an ordinary Steel Hammer ? Is it softer or maybe a differently shaped striking face?

The striking face is flat, where every ball peen I’ve seen is rounded. Also, if you make a handle for it you can really tune in the striking quality. I have a hard time missing the chisel.
When tuned in the striking force is very deliberate, accurate, strong and direct. It’s becuase of this I prefer to chop rather than pare.


Brian,
Thank you very much for this posting. The opportunity to get information from someone who has no agenda but is knowledgeable on the subject matter is the main reason I contribute to SawmillCreek.
Mahalo - Bill

Thank you!


Brian, good info on this subject.
Do you have any experience with Belgische Brochen or Belgian chuncks which are more common in europe ?

Thank you! No experience there, you might ask David Weaver he will certainly know about them.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Brian, Im not sure that David Weaver is with us at this forum ? I could write him an email, but then nobody else would benefit from the answer.

[ernest dubois]

They are called coticule - I think the spelling is correct - and its a very good stone but you must make one major distinction when going on and on about them and that distinction - David Weaver (whoever he is) would have to agree - is between the old solid chunks and the new laminated. The coticule is made up of a double stone layer. The cream color is the cutting stone, the blue/purple layer supports this. Well, presently due to the great depletion of the strains the double stone as a single unit are rare, to compensate the cream and the blue are mined separately, machined and then glued together. Of course this diverts from the topic at hand so I keep in short and simple this way.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Brian, good info on this subject.
Do you have any experience with Belgische Brochen or Belgian chuncks which are more common in europe ?

We have one at work and its a fantastic stone, they certainly dont have their reputation for nothing, cuts faster then a stone that fine has any right to and leaves a Mirror Finish. Though it being a Natural stone none are really alike so experiences probably differ, the one we have is an unlaminated solid Yellow/Cream one. Those are almost impossible to get nowadays and if they are seriously expensive.


They are called coticule - I think the spelling is correct - and its a very good stone but you must make one major distinction when going on and on about them and that distinction - David Weaver (whoever he is) would have to agree - is between the old solid chunks and the new laminated. The coticule is made up of a double stone layer. The cream color is the cutting stone, the blue/purple layer supports this. Well, presently due to the great depletion of the strains the double stone as a single unit are rare, to compensate the cream and the blue are mined separately, machined and then glued together. Of course this diverts from the topic at hand so I keep in short and simple this way.

Yes a real shame that they are depleted, the yellow is a great stone. However there are still sizeable Chunks of the Blue one at agreeable prices, they are said to be similar if a bit less agressive and harder stones. I cant really comment though since i've never used one though from all i heard they are supposedly pretty nice.

[ernest dubois]

We have one at work and its a fantastic stone, they certainly dont have their reputation for nothing, cuts faster then a stone that fine has any right to and leaves a Mirror Finish. Though it being a Natural stone none are really alike so experiences probably differ, the one we have is an unlaminated solid Yellow/Cream one. Those are almost impossible to get nowadays and if they are seriously expensive.



Yes a real shame that they are depleted, the yellow is a great stone. However there are still sizeable Chunks of the Blue one at agreeable prices, they are said to be similar if a bit less agressive and harder stones. I cant really comment though since i've never used one though from all i heard they are supposedly pretty nice.
To bad this is completely off the topic because it's a fun topic itself.

[Patrick Chase]

To bad this is completely off the topic because it's a fun topic itself.

Hmm, I vaguely remember there being something you can do about that... it'll come to me... oh yeah, start a thread.