Question on Rowmark, Duets, etc

[Steve Utick]

I have a request to make some signs for someone that will be touched and handled quite a bit. Looking at 1/8" thickness for durability, but wondering about how well the surface on Rowmark, Duets, etc. will hold up to being touched and handled? Will the surface color wear off, or wear down considerably? Any recommendations on what to use for an application like this?

Thanks!

[Mike Null]

What is the application?

[John Lifer]

Gemini has a new line that has a 'harder' more 'wear resistant' surface covering. I haven't used any yet, I DO know that some of the metals line shows fingerprints (both Gemini and Rowmark) way more than I'd like. Coating might help on those.

[Bert Kemp]

1/8th or 1/4 cast acrylic will hold up very well. I've made signs with just engraving also color filled them for friends .

[Kev Williams]

About a year ago I started buying a few colors in Duets.

The irony was, about a month later when calling an order in to Delvies (they're 5 miles from me), at that moment a Gemini factory rep was in the store. He and Scott from Delvies were both interested in my shop and what I thought about Rowmark and Duets products, so 1/2 hour later they came by.

What I told them:

Duets: most colors have shearing issues; on occasion the top coat will chip badly when sheared, bad enough sometimes that it can't be beveled away.
--rep said they were aware of this and are working on it. Rowmark has never done this...

Duets v Romark engraving: Romark white takes substantially more power to fully engrave than nearly all other colors. Duet's white is pretty much the same as all other colors..
As for red/white, Duets wins hands down in the 'doesn't stain' category. Rowmark is terrible for red soot staining the engraved white, Duets does, but very slightly. **disclaimer**, staining is a function of smoke extraction- My LS900 pulls smoke aggressively across the substrate surface, and doesn't have an engrave bottom-up option (old driver), but my GCC DOES do bottom up, and smoke extraction is WAYYY less aggressive, so whenever I do red Romark, it's done in the GCC. Duet's stain slightly in the LS900, not at all in the GCC...

That said, about a month later, I found this out about Duets: DNA will break down many of the top colors, especially yellow. Romark yellow soots up, and I just take a little DNA and a paper towel and clean it off. I did that with some Duets yellow badges one day, and it took only a few swipes to wipe the yellow right down to the black... not good. Red and white also breaks down, just not as quickly. IIRC black holds up best to DNA.

In summary, the negatives of Duets well offsets the positives, and I haven't bought Duets since.

OK, that all said, subject at hand, durability concerning 'hands on'...

First off-- the thin cap on most laserable plastics, even 'more durable' ones, is prone to wearing down under repeat handling and cleaning. How much handling is the question; will it tolerate it for 5 years, or 5 months? For this reason I've never used 'basic' laserable plastics that I know will be exposed to wear. One example, I make labels for mining trucks that mix ammonium nitrate and fuel oil on site to blow big holes in the ground. These labels are fully exposed to weather and chemicals, so I use Romark 1/8" Ultramatte. In 27 years (so far) not one label has ever failed. However, it must be tool engraved. You CAN laser it, but its slow and it just doesn't look good.

If you're not afraid of a little painting, there is a good option, and half the cost of 1/8" material: Reverse laser engraveable 1/16" thick matte clear over your favorite background color. The matte clear is VERY durable, .050" thick so it'll never wear down. Laser the back, and paint the engraving. Which is easy, just get water based house paint and brush it on. Dries quick, and usually doesn't need to be cleaned up. I've been buying IPI's version of this material for years, very happy with it. Romark has their version of it, not sure about Gemini...

[Mike Null]

I use exclusively IPI materials from Johnsons. Regardless of what brand you use the cap thickness will be important. I have a customer who uses blank white name tags. I originally made them from a material that had a .001" cap. (I don't believe they make a .001" cap any longer) It didn't take long for the customer to complain that they would not withstand the frequent removal of the taped on names. I switched to a thicker cap and have had no issues.

[Steve Utick]

What is the application?

It's for a vendor here that puts gambling machines into casinos. They want some machine reserved signs that the customers can put on the machine to reserve it if they have to run to the restroom or something like that. So, they will be getting handled a moved around a lot, hence wanting something that will be pretty durable and hold up well.

[Tony Lenkic]

Signs that will be hand moved from one location to another will not degrade much over time. What breaks down top cap is aggressive chemicals and oils.
If you have to have laser engraved products I would suggest IPI Lasertuff line (http://www.inoplas.com/products/lasershop/lasertuff.asp). It has a heavier cap and requires more power and/or slower speed to cut trough the cap.

[Steve Utick]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'll take a look at the IPI Lasertuff line and see how that comes out. I've got a 100watt laser, so shouldn't be a problem engraving it.

[Kev Williams]

for your needs I agree with the others on typical laserable being okay. I like IPI stuff too, but Rowmark white top/black lettering is pretty durable. 1/8" thick is optional, for slot machine 'reserved' signs 1/16" should be fine. My only other suggestion in this case would be to consider 2-sided material; having both sides the same color is more pleasing aesthetically, and, you could offer your customer 'failsafe' signs engraved both sides, which would prevent casino customers from turning it around and claiming they didn't see it ;) -- win win --

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

That said, about a month later, I found this out about Duets: DNA will break down many of the top colors, especially yellow. Romark yellow soots up, and I just take a little DNA and a paper towel and clean it off. I did that with some Duets yellow badges one day, and it took only a few swipes to wipe the yellow right down to the black... not good. Red and white also breaks down, just not as quickly. IIRC black holds up best to DNA.


In summary, the negatives of Duets well offsets the positives, and I haven't bought Duets since.


I am finding the same problems with Duets as I add more colors when I run out of Rowmark. DNA, WD-40, Magic Eraser, Goo Gone, tap water & cloth, etc. - All of them will cause the top color to bleed into the white. No matter how many times you wipe the top color with a new clean cloth, that top color will end up on your cloth and in the engraved area.

I have had some success in cleaning Duets with Krud Kutter and Novus, but those will not clean any sticky edges. WD-40, Goo Gone, DNA, etc will clean the sticky edges, but then it will take the top color off.

[Kev Williams]

Turpentine is fast on the edges and very slow to attack the colors, but eventually it will. Beware that it's very slow to dry...

However--- while the problem with the colors during fabrication and cleanup is a headache, the BIGGER headache comes when the "what's the matter with my signs and badges?" phone calls from MY CUSTOMERS start up. Doing things once is bad enough, doing them a second time for free, not acceptable. And it makes ME look bad...

[Bert Kemp]

Ok I have to ask why no one else thinks acrylic is a good option? It comes in lots of colors, engraves easily, color fills easily, no worries about the color coming off while cleaning the edges, Its super durable and will hold up for ever, no matter how many people handle it. Is there something I'm missing?

[Kev Williams]

"color fills easily"-- is another step, no matter how easy.

Example, I just lasered a 3x6 black/white plate for one customer, and tool engraved three 1x6 gray/blue office name plates for another. They're done and can be picked up in the morning, and I can get to bed by 1am... If they had to be paint filled, they'll still be done by morning but I wouldn't get to bed till 1:30! :D

[Mike Null]

Bert

For some applications, I would also consider color fill but in this case, there's too much handling to consider it plus it adds cost.

When I do museum signs I do exactly as you recommend--reverse engrave and colorfill. But they are wall mounted.

[Steve Utick]

"color fills easily"-- is another step, no matter how easy.

Example, I just lasered a 3x6 black/white plate for one customer, and tool engraved three 1x6 gray/blue office name plates for another. They're done and can be picked up in the morning, and I can get to bed by 1am... If they had to be paint filled, they'll still be done by morning but I wouldn't get to bed till 1:30! :D

That's true. If it were a few items, I might consider a color fill, but in this case, the customer wants 500, so the labor for something like that would add greatly to the cost. Plus as Mike points out, I'd be worried about the color fill getting chipped or rubbed out with all the handling. Really looking for the most cost effective option for the customer that will last the longest, hence looking at the IPI LaserTuff.
Thanks again for all the feedback from everyone.

[Jeff Watkins]

It might be worth calling Johnson or another distributor directly and asking for their input also. I've only used Rowmark and IPI, each have different levels of products that stand up to different environments. I toured the local Johnson facility last year and it was like a HomeDepot of plastic, isles and isles of every imaginable color combination, thickness, and grade of material you could want.

Keep us posted what you go with. Are you using Fiber or CO2?

[Bert Kemp]

OK I get it ,didn't know he was doing 500 and Kev mentioned color filling some material so thought it was an acceptable option.

[Steve Utick]

It might be worth calling Johnson or another distributor directly and asking for their input also. I've only used Rowmark and IPI, each have different levels of products that stand up to different environments. I toured the local Johnson facility last year and it was like a HomeDepot of plastic, isles and isles of every imaginable color combination, thickness, and grade of material you could want.

Keep us posted what you go with. Are you using Fiber or CO2?

Yea, I'll probably call Johnson today and talk to them and see what their recommendation would be. Good idea, thanks for that. I'll be doing these on the CO2 laser. Haven't tried anything with plastics on the fiber yet, as it's pretty new here, and frankly didn't know how acrylics would behave on the fiber. May have to experiment with that some here in the future.

[Steve Utick]

Yea, I'll probably call Johnson today and talk to them and see what their recommendation would be. Good idea, thanks for that. I'll be doing these on the CO2 laser. Haven't tried anything with plastics on the fiber yet, as it's pretty new here, and frankly didn't know how acrylics would behave on the fiber. May have to experiment with that some here in the future.

Following up to my own post, spoke with a gentleman at Johnson Plastics this morning. He said that the IPI Lasertuff would be the most durable substrate they had, and what he would recommend for a project that would be moved around and handled a lot. So, there ya go....

[Jeff Watkins]

Steve, Thanks for the update. Like I said there's so many different lines of product. I guess a product with TUFF in the name *should* hold up well, lol.

I've been using Rowmark on my CO2 for awhile and it works great. I took the time initially to dial in the settings for a particularly detailed logo I use from time to time. When I got my 30w Fiber (MOPA) I tried a few tests and was blown away by the additional detail. The downside on the fiber is I can't get it to cut, it just bubbles and makes a mess. So I think I'll stick to cutting it out on the CO2 but run the graphics on the Fiber, which is also much faster. By finessing power and frequency on the Fiber or running a second lower power/higher frequency pass you can get lighter or darker shades of the secondary layer.

[Steve Utick]

Steve, Thanks for the update. Like I said there's so many different lines of product. I guess a product with TUFF in the name *should* hold up well, lol.

I've been using Rowmark on my CO2 for awhile and it works great. I took the time initially to dial in the settings for a particularly detailed logo I use from time to time. When I got my 30w Fiber (MOPA) I tried a few tests and was blown away by the additional detail. The downside on the fiber is I can't get it to cut, it just bubbles and makes a mess. So I think I'll stick to cutting it out on the CO2 but run the graphics on the Fiber, which is also much faster. By finessing power and frequency on the Fiber or running a second lower power/higher frequency pass you can get lighter or darker shades of the secondary layer.

Jeff,
Yes, definitely interested in trying it with the fiber when I get a sheet of LaserTuff here. I too have a 30w JPT MOPA. Would you be willing to share what you do for settings as a starting point to experiment with? That's obviously been the most daunting part of the fiber, is the lack of availability of settings and suggestions for it. I have piles of test stuff here from working with some new things.

Thanks

[Jeff Watkins]

Jeff,
Yes, definitely interested in trying it with the fiber when I get a sheet of LaserTuff here. I too have a 30w JPT MOPA. Would you be willing to share what you do for settings as a starting point to experiment with? That's obviously been the most daunting part of the fiber, is the lack of availability of settings and suggestions for it. I have piles of test stuff here from working with some new things.

Thanks

Steve, with the Rowmark Black/Gold I'm using 1500s, 20p, 1000khz,20ns, 0/90 hatch @0.02mm spacing. If I just do one pass it leaves residue but upping the power looses detail. If you still have residue run another lower power/high frequency pass and it should clean right up. Since you've got a MOPA try finessing the Pulse NS up and down a little to dial in your detail once you find your power sweet spot. I'm sure IPI will act a little different as would different colors and I'd bet the Tuff line will have a thicker cap layer to get through.

I find it amusing that I can cut Black card stock with the Fiber in super detail yet most other colors just burn.

If anyone has setting for cutting Rowmark/IPI or layered plastics with a Fiber please share. Thanks!

[Steve Utick]

Steve, with the Rowmark Black/Gold I'm using 1500s, 20p, 1000khz,20ns, 0/90 hatch @0.02mm spacing. If I just do one pass it leaves residue but upping the power looses detail. If you still have residue run another lower power/high frequency pass and it should clean right up. Since you've got a MOPA try finessing the Pulse NS up and down a little to dial in your detail once you find your power sweet spot. I'm sure IPI will act a little different as would different colors and I'd bet the Tuff line will have a thicker cap layer to get through.

I find it amusing that I can cut Black card stock with the Fiber in super detail yet most other colors just burn.

If anyone has setting for cutting Rowmark/IPI or layered plastics with a Fiber please share. Thanks!

Thanks for the suggestions. My JPT source only goes from 1 to 400khz. I had some gemini duets scraps here, so did play around with those some yesterday. Got some good results out of most of those running the settings you suggested, but with only 400khz. Had some troubles with the red, just can't seem to cut through the surface on that one, but didn't have a whole lot of time to experiment around. Thanks for the suggestions and will follow up when I get some Lasertuff stock here to try.

[Glen Monaghan]

Saw an email today saying that Duets has a new Dura-Guard™ that makes Duets® Laser XT more durable. It's a new option for Duets Laser XT, said to be ideal for high-traffic, high-contact signage, wayfinding and industrial labeling applications, offering the "perfect balance" of wear resistance and easy cleaning. You can get a free sample to try for yourself.

[Steve Utick]

Saw an email today saying that Duets has a new Dura-Guard™ that makes Duets® Laser XT more durable. It's a new option for Duets Laser XT, said to be ideal for high-traffic, high-contact signage, wayfinding and industrial labeling applications, offering the "perfect balance" of wear resistance and easy cleaning. You can get a free sample to try for yourself.

Thanks Glen, I hadn't run across that yet either. Looks promising, and has a lot better color selection than Lasertuff as well. Will check it out.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Hey Kev,

I tried to PM you but maybe your box is full or you have PM turned off. What complaints are you receiving about the Duets? I'm wondering if I'm going to start seeing some from my customers soon.

[Kev Williams]

Haven't seen any complaints yet, my not using Duets is a pre-emptive strike ;)

- Most of my laminates end up as signs and labels used in industrial settings. And I know that some of my customers will eventually need to clean these signs, and alcohol is all-too-easy and available 'cleaning agent'. I have one customer who insists on Duets yellow for their name badges as it's a much brighter yellow than Rowmark's. But I warned their buyer NOT to use anything stronger than dish soap to clean them.

For what it's worth, years ago I placed various pieces of Rowmark in a couple of coffee cans, one with gasoline, one with diesel fuel, and after a weekend of soaking they were unharmed. Thing is, many/most other available chemicals- acetone, xylene, toluene, naptha, tricholorthene, MEK, alcohol- are worse on plastics than gas or diesel! I've found that alcohol pretty much WILL break down any engraving plastic, eventually. More than once I've ruined some signs because some alcohol I cleaned edges with was trapped between a couple of parts and they ended up welded together...
Like this 12" E-stop, my bad on this deal, the obvious meltdown on the left, and between the GE in emergency-
and all the missing material ended up welded to the plate above it. Learned my lesson on these, I screwed up
about $200 worth of these just because I didn't make sure all the alky was dry...
379687
- and this is Rowmark- If your patient you can probably weld Rowmark together with Wild Turkey ;)

The issue is chemical resistance, and the short version is, Rowmark is much more resistant to alcohol than Duets. For now- I do hope Gemini resolves these issues, using their material would save me about $200 a month!