Shaper Decision

[James Cheever]

All -

I am starting a large run of raised panels and I’m not sure my router table is up to the task. Based on this I am looking to upgrade my router table and add a shaper to my arsenal. Unfortunately, my funds are limited to about $2000 plus/minus.

I am thinking a 3 HP shaper will do the trick. Using $2000 as a guide, I came up with several options. The lower end is represented by the Grizzly G1026. On the higher end is the Laguna 3 HP 4 speed. Considering shipping and tax, these two options are separated by about $850.

Any thoughts as to best value shaper (these or any other options) in the price range? Your input is appreciated.

Rick

[Jaromir Svoboda]

Don't forget to get power feeder also.

[Martin Wasner]

Any thoughts as to best value shaper (these or any other options) in the price range? Your input is appreciated.

Used.

I paid $1200 for a SAC TS125. You could pick up a six pack of those other shapers and the used SAC will outlive all of them.

[James Cheever]

Watching the local used market. I’m hoping something does pop up.

[Cary Falk]

You might have to look at the used market if it exists in your area. I started with the Grizzly G1026. It is fine for the money but the fence is not the greatest. I think a shaper lives and dies with the fence. I looked for a long time to find a used PM2700 on CL and it didn't happen. I ended up with the Laguna Pro shaper. I think I paid $2600 for it on sale. It is almost identical to the PM2700. I love it. I was hesitant to buy Laguna because of the reports of poor customer service. The Laguna guys I spoke to about the shaper didn't know much about it. It is almost identical to the PM2700 and the Manual had pictures of the PM fence in it. Anyway, the Laguna fence looks better than the grizzly but not as nice as the pro shaper. I have a thread here that compares the Laguna parts to the Grizzly parts. There is quite a difference. I have not seen the compact shaper but from looking at the manual, it looks like the compact will be a similar build.

I will say this if you go used. Stay away for Delta or least go into it with eyes open. Delta is all but dead. Parts are hard to find. Spindles are harder to find and expensive if you can. The older ones have some spindle cartridges that sound like a pain to rebuild if the bearings go out. Delta fans will tell youdifferent but I have better things to do than search for parts.

I frgot about the photo buck problem so here are some of the pictures of the comparison thread.
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[Justin Ludwig]

Don’t waste your money on a G1026. Keep an eye on machinerymax.com and steal a good machine like Martin’s. They usually come bundled with a power feeder too.

[Bill Orbine]

Don't forget the tooling......

[Joe Jensen]

I agree. I have three recommendations:
1) Buy used
2) Add a 1HP feeder, way safer and a better cut quality
3) Buy cutters as you need them. I've bought a ton used on ebay with good results.

[David Kumm]

Take a look at the used shapers on the machinery exchange on woodweb.com. They will give you an idea of choices and pricing. In the shaper world, heavier is better. Most will be three phase but a few will be single and all the three phase can be run off a vfd. You want a feeder for sure. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

Here is an example, just looked at Craig's list for Phili

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/tls/d/rockwell-shaper/6494049572.html
Delta shaper $475

[Marc Jeske]

I guess if you need it plug and play to make your contract, then new.

Otherwise, some used stuff.

I did not see of you need 1ph or 3.

Moak w feeder - https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/hvo/d/moak-shaper/6460823086.html

https://cnj.craigslist.org/bfs/d/delta-shaper-220-volt-single/6484812117.html

https://allentown.craigslist.org/tls/d/rockwell-shaper/6494050155.html

https://reading.craigslist.org/tls/d/grizzly-wood-shaper/6480092817.html

Joe beat me to it.

[andy bessette]

Watching the local used market. I’m hoping something does pop up.

Watching and hoping is not nearly enough effort if you would be determined to find a quality machine in excellent condition.

[Ken Grant]

Is this a one time project, or do you have other wants/needs for a shaper? If it is a one time deal, I would just run them on your router table. (or if you value your time, order the doors. This is what a lot of smaller full time cabinet shops do.)

Provided you have a decent router/router table and a sharp bit, you can get perfectly acceptable results raising panels. You will need to take a couple passes, use a featherboard hold down, and keep a steady feed rate. I have built hundreds of doors this way. Yes, it is much slower then a shaper and power feeder, but you could run 50 panels on a router table in a couple hours.

It will take you much longer then that to buy a shaper and figure out how to use it, and by the time you buy the machine, tooling, power feeder, electrical and dust collection hookup, etc, I have a feeling you are going to be over your $2k budget. (speaking from experience here, I currently have 3 shapers and wish I had room for more:)

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi James, 3 things

1) fence, shapers live or die by the fence, make sure it's a good one, easily adjustable, large fence plates, safety fingers if you can find one greatly improve your safety and work quality.

2) speed, you'll want to find one with a low RPM speed of 3,000 to 4,000 RPM, in addition to about 6,000 and 8,000.

3) spindle size should be 1 1/4" or 30mm

I don't know what prices are like in the US, a friend of mine just purchased a used Hammer F3 with feeder for $5K Canadian............Rod.

[Erik Loza]

Several of my customers ended up with the PM2700 and spoke highly of it.

Erik

[Jeff Ramsey]

Rick, I'd hold off and buy used. Good used ones come up frequently on CL and auction, and usually under your max.

[Mike Cutler]

I guess if you need it plug and play to make your contract, then new.

Otherwise, some used stuff.

I did not see of you need 1ph or 3.

Moak w feeder - https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/hvo/d/moak-shaper/6460823086.html

https://cnj.craigslist.org/bfs/d/delta-shaper-220-volt-single/6484812117.html

https://allentown.craigslist.org/tls/d/rockwell-shaper/6494050155.html

https://reading.craigslist.org/tls/d/grizzly-wood-shaper/6480092817.html

Joe beat me to it.

That Moak looks pretty interesting.
I don't need a shaper, but if I was closer I'd look at it just for the power feeder.

[Jeff Heath]

A word on shapers.....

A used vintage shaper in good shape is a lot better quality machine, for final finish vibration dampening, over the newer sheet metal stuff. They are built heavier and were designed for all day industrial use. I have rebuilt a few, and it's not uncommon to find high quality abec 7 or 9 bearings in some of the higher end vintage shapers. You're talking about bearings that cost over $1000. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. If the machine was well maintained, those bearings will last indefinitely with proper lubrication.

I have experience with a similar Moak shaper, as shown above, and I currently own a Porter "light duty" shaper. Light duty my arse. I raise panels in 2 passes, taking a 1/16" final pass for cleanup. A lot of time saved vs. a router table (which I upgraded from). Those older cast iron machines are hard to beat, and you can find some great prices. I paid $500 for my Porter, and it needed a cleanup and I changed the oil for the oil bath bearings. Minimal measurable runout, less than what is considered acceptable on a new asian machine.

A word on fences......

Most commercial fences aren't as good as just making your own out of thick piece of stable quartersawn wood. I typically use white oak or ash. I have my own sawmill, so have plenty of 8/4 laying around in the wood shed. You can cut out a zero clearance for the spindle and bearing (if using one) and push the fence material through the shaper cutter, making a zero clearance fence. This is the very best fence you can use for most shaper profiles.....and especially raised panels.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

[Jim Becker]

Rick, I'd hold off and buy used. Good used ones come up frequently on CL and auction, and usually under your max.
Speaking of...check out the shaper in Deals and Discounts that's available in D'town for a song...grab it if you have space and the funds. I would, but I don't have the space and put a whole bunch of money toward a CNC that's on order.

[Jeff Ramsey]

Speaking of...check out the shaper in Deals and Discounts that's available in D'town for a song...grab it if you have space and the funds. I would, but I don't have the space and put a whole bunch of money toward a CNC that's on order.

Ah yes another good buy. I've upgraded four machines in the last year to a Powermatic 1150 drill press, 90 lathe, 30 disc/belt sander, and a Delta 37-315 jointer. I've a Delta 52-704 shaper that was given to me, but the Grizz would be an upgrade (especially with the cutters).

A CNC eh? I might have to drive back over when you get that set up!

Thanks for the lead on the Grizz.

[James Cheever]

Thanks for all the feedback and information, guys. I’ll take a look and see what’s doable.

Rick

[rudy de haas]

Everyone here is telling you to buy used. I did - and it worked out well for me.

Many people here are telling you shapers live and die by the fence - but I think that's both good advice and wrong in the sense that it implies that other elements of your purchase are less critical. In my opinion (I'm a beginner learning slowly by doing it wrong first) the power feeder is at least as important as the fence and more critical in the sense that you can work with a poor fence, but you cannot power feed without a power feeder. Initially I did not appreciate the power feeder (I got mine with the machine - 1HP Grizzly equiv with a 3HP 90s Griz equiv shaper), but now I love the thing because it allows me to produce much better results - even on runs of one or two pieces.

In addition... you need to consider what advanced features and quality level you need, for how long, and how they match with your needs and abilities. New is nice, and a G1026 with the matching feeder is within your budget - and if you're either not an expert or not planning to use it a lot, then the missing features, limited weight (mine has 200+ pounds on the G1046 and the stability is great), or limited longevity may not matter to you - especially if you plan to sell it when your project is done.

[andy bessette]

A power feeder is absolutely unnecessary to the basic function of a shaper.

[Nick Lazz]

A power feeder is absolutely unnecessary to the basic function of a shaper.

I'm fairly new to my shaper, and I bought it used as well. It is a PM 27 I found through an auction at a school. Although a power feeder is not necessary, consider the shaper is probably the most dangerous tool in your shop...and if it isn't, it's pretty close. That said a power feeder helps reduce that a lot by keeping your hands away from the cutter heads. Second, the main difference between running through a shaper with a power feeder vs a router table is consistent feed rate and material dead tight to table and fence. Both will make a big difference in your overall performance of making good joinery. Last, if you ever want to use your shaper in reverse, or run material through backwards when dealing with difficult species you have to have a power feeder.
JMO of course.

[Marc Jeske]

Jim - For those that are not hip to the lingo, or at least for me, what is "Deals and Discounts" and "D'town" ?

Googled it and all I get is those goofy coupon sites.

Thanks , Marc

[James Cheever]

Marc - Deals and Discounts is a subgroup here on the Creek. D-Town is Doylestown. It is slang used around here in the Lehigh Valley, PA / Philly area.

[Jim Becker]

James, I didn't realize you were a "close neighbor". :) Jeepers...if you haven't bought that shaper yet, it sounds like it's still posted...

[James Cheever]

Yep, Jim, we are pretty close.

FYI - Just this morning I sent the seller an email to see if I can set a time to come see it and see it run. So we will see what happens.

[Jim Becker]

Yep, Jim, we are pretty close.

FYI - Just this morning I sent the seller an email to see if I can set a time to come see it and see it run. So we will see what happens.

Let me know if it works out...I could easily come help you load it up, schedule permitting, since I'm only a few minutes from wherever it happens to live now.

[Mike Cutler]

A power feeder is absolutely unnecessary to the basic function of a shaper.


I agree.
If a person locks themselves into believing that you can only use a shaper with a power feeder, they're missing a whole lot of what a shaper can do. It does much more than just cope and stick.

[Mel Fulks]

Years ago I didn't see a lot of power feeders, but we always had spring pressure bars. I would not work without one.

[Mike Wilkins]

Look at the used market if you don't have an immediate need. I had been wanting a shaper for a long time, but kept putting it off for various reasons. The main reason is lack of space in my shop. But a cruise through C-list last week, which I don't do often, placed a deal in front of me that could not be resisted. Got a 1974 Rockwell shaper with 3 horse power plant and 3/4" spindle. I think it is a great deal for a shaper newbie, especially for the $475.00 price tag and a spindle that had been rebuilt with new bearings and set up. Now comes the sticker shock of purchasing tooling and an eventual power feeder.

[Jeff Heath]

With a shaper, tooling it up is always the biggest cost factor. The cost of the machine can become negligible compared to tooling if you use the shaper to it's potential with a lot of different profiles. Lots of guys use insert heads and grind their own knives to save money in commercial applications. That being said, Freeborn has a very extensive tooling catalog, and my eyes light up everytime I look in there.

I don't intend this to be harsh, but a power feed is NOT essential to shaper use. It's a fantastic addition to one for high volume runs and lengthy moldings, and creates a better finish than can be typically attained by hand feeding, but it certainly isn't essential. I have quite a few hold down clamps and jigs used for feeding chair parts, cope and stick, etc....and get great results without a feeder.

[Martin Wasner]

On powerfeeds, most people wince and whine on this site constantly about tablesaw safety. I'd rather do the man dance any day with a tablesaw than a shaper. There's a lot more power, a lot more cutter, and usually a lot more to go wrong. I'd make the safety nazis and the sawstop fanatics run away, but I don't mess with shapers. When stuff goes wrong its a far different level of violence than a tablesaw.

Do I run stuff by hand? Sure. But it is not my favorite thing to do and things are either jig'd up or power fed whenever possible, which is most of the time. There's always situations where you will HAVE to hand feed.

Neccessary? Nope.

A wise investment? You bet your sweet little posterior.

The side benefit is smooth consistent feed rate which translates into a higher quality cut.

[David Kumm]

I'd also add that if you have little or no experience with a shaper, a feeder, while not necessary, is great protection from your greatest enemy- yourself. When I got a shaper a million years ago I had no idea how really stout you need hold downs and clamps to be. How easy it is for stock to twist into the cut, and how far chips and knots can fly. Until you get proficient with a shaper, that big heavy feeder sitting between you and cutter is a real comfort. Experience teaches how to safely hand feed but until then, look for at least a used feeder. $500-700 is no big deal. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

As others have said a stock feeder is really a requirement for safety and quality of work.

The stock feeder holds pieces far more securely than any human can, and feeds at a steady consistent rate with constant pressure downwards and into the fence.

In addition it doesn't have momentary lapses of concentration.

Yes. there are a lot of times a shaper will be hand fed, however many times the stock feeder is the best choice.

regards, Rod.

[Cary Falk]

Out of all the tools in my shop, my shaper is the only one with a pucker factor when I turn it on. :eek:

[Rod Sheridan]

Out of all the tools in my shop, my shaper is the only one with a pucker factor when I turn it on. :eek:

Nothing makes you do an LMRA (Last Minute Risk Assessment) like the sound of a large shaper cutter accelerating.:eek:

regards, Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Rod

If I fire up the shaper or the planer, my wife will not stay on the shop. The rest of the machines she is fine with.
I have a 16" jointer with a square cutter head. That's a little intimidating. 😉