Ray Iles Mortise Chisel

[lowell holmes]

379230
Have you ever seen a Ray Iles mortise chisel? While cleaning my shop after Hurricane Harvey, I ran across mine.
It defines what a 1/2" pig sticker should be. Fortunately it is not damaged. If you need such a chisel, I can recommend it.
Yes, this is a bit of a gloat.:)

[Patrick Chase]

Have you ever seen a Ray Iles mortise chisel? While cleaning my shop after Hurricane Harvey, I ran across mine.

I have a set and love them. If nothing else they prove that full bolsters work :-).

[Jeff Heath]

I have a set and love them. If nothing else they prove that full bolsters work :-).

Me, too. Great chisels. With quality vintage pig stickers seemingly selling for nearly the same price, buying new, for me, just made sense. It was a good decision. They are massive, well made, and do their job. I like the beech handles, too.

[Tony Wilkins]

I really looked at them a while back. What worried me was the steel they used and getting it sharp. Ended up with the LN sash mortise chisel in the size I needed.

[ken hatch]

I really looked at them a while back. What worried me was the steel they used and getting it sharp. Ended up with the LN sash mortise chisel in the size I needed.

Tony,

Two points....It's a mortise chisel, a wedge, not a paring chisel. It doesn't need to slice your finger open at the slightest touch. It just needs to hold a kinda sharp edge through some slight abuse. The LN chisels are A2 and every bit as hard to sharpen as D2, in fact I can sharpen the Ray Iles on Ark stones, the LN not so much. I have the LN mortise chisels and they are great for cleaning out the mortise after chopping with the Ray Iles but for chopping most mortises there are better chisels for the job than the LN's.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Glad you are finding your tools after the storm.

Your mortise chisel looks similar to my 1/2" Thos Ibbotson mortise chisel.

In a picture of it with a bunch of other chisels Patrick Chase thought it was a Ray Iles mortise chisel.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Glad you are finding your tools after the storm.

Your mortise chisel looks similar to my 1/2" Thos Ibbotson mortise chisel.

In a picture of it with a bunch of other chisels Patrick Chase thought it was a Ray Iles mortise chisel.

jtk

Jim,

I think that is the beauty of the Ray Iles' mortise chisels, they are classic English oval bolster mortise chisels (pig stickers) but new off the shelf. There are some things that can't be improved and I think the pig sticker is one of 'em.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

In a picture of it with a bunch of other chisels Patrick Chase thought it was a Ray Iles mortise chisel.


IIRC I asked if it was a rehandled/refinished RI. The handle color was obviously off :-).

Ken is right, though. The fully bolstered pigsticker is a traditional form that "just works", and not being able to tell them apart is a good thing in that regard.

[Ted Phillips]

I always thought those English-style pig-sticker mortise chisels looked vaguely...sinister, somehow. Like they would make a great prop on a low-budget horror film.

They work great though - no worry about damaging the tool wrenching out the chips!

TedP

[steven c newman]

Afraid mine came from Japan, via Okinawa....
379274
12mm ( 1/2"?) does have a bit of writing on the blade.
379275
Business end..
379276
Backside...
Spent $10 on it.....maybe too much?

[Gary Cunningham]

I have the 1/4" chisel. My wife says it is "scary looking".

[Patrick Chase]

I have the 1/4" chisel. My wife says it is "scary looking".

I'd go with "brutally simple" myself.

After all it's made to do one thing and only one thing well: Bash holes in things.

[Jeff Heath]

I would add to this discussion (haven't seen it mentioned above) that when they first arrived, I was in love with the beech handles, as they are massive and well shaped, and I have big hands. I was at first, however, a little concerned about whacking them really hard. I am a large human, and have split handles before. That 1/2" chisel handle will really take a serious beating, and I am frequently whomping on it like never before and it has held up remarkably well. I am very impressed with these, and happy with my investment, as this is a lot more money, per chisel, than I am used to spending.

[Derek Cohen]

Jeff, I have the 1/4" and 3/8" RI's and the 3/8" is huge. The 1/2" is Huger (is that a word? :) )!

Regarding D2 (in the RI) and A2 (in the LN), I spent time testing the Veritas mortice chisels pre-production. I chops miles of mortices in PM-V11 and A2 versions. The PM shaded the A2, but I was really impressed with the A2. I gave up trying to use both steels until dull. Those railing against A2 are being influenced by what they read on the forums. It is a fine steel for mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Jeff, I have the 1/4" and 3/8" RI's and the 3/8" is huge. The 1/2" is Huger (is that a word? :) )!

Regarding D2 (in the RI) and A2 (in the LN), I spent time testing the Veritas mortice chisels pre-production. I chops miles of mortices in PM-V11 and A2 versions. The PM shaded the A2, but I was really impressed with the A2. I gave up trying to use both steels until dull. Those railing against A2 are being influenced by what they read on the forums. It is a fine steel for mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I just went back and re-read the posts on this thread and I'm the only one that mentioned A2 so I assume you are referring to me. If you read my post I did not rail against A2 for a mortise chisel, in fact I mentioned I have a few LN. What I don't like about the LN chisels is they are sash mortise chisels and that applies to all sash mortise chisels, EOB mortise chisels work better for most mortises except for small not very deep ones and I did say the LN chisels are great for clean up after chopping. My post was in reference to an earlier post that stated "...What worried me was the steel they used and getting it sharp. Ended up with the LN sash mortise chisel in the size I needed." I said in my experience I can sharpen the D2 RI chisels on Ark stones, the A2 not so much.

Sorry for the long reply but I don't see any railing against A2 on this thread.

ken

[Phil Mueller]

I have often told my wife that if she needs to defend herself the RI 3/8 is the one to grab :eek:

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,

I just went back and re-read the posts on this thread and I'm the only one that mentioned A2 so I assume you are referring to me. If you read my post I did not rail against A2 for a mortise chisel, in fact I mentioned I have a few LN. What I don't like about the LN chisels is they are sash mortise chisels and that applies to all sash mortise chisels, EOB mortise chisels work better for most mortises except for small not very deep ones and I did say the LN chisels are great for clean up after chopping. My post was in reference to an earlier post that stated "...What worried me was the steel they used and getting it sharp. Ended up with the LN sash mortise chisel in the size I needed." I said in my experience I can sharpen the D2 RI chisels on Ark stones, the A2 not so much.

Sorry for the long reply but I don't see any railing against A2 on this thread.

ken

Ken, I was not referring to your post. A2 comes in for a bashing a great deal for its use in plane blades and chisels. LN and Veritas both use it in their mortice chisels. My comment was simply to let others know that I consider it to be good steel for this purpose, and not to baulk at the offerings from these two companies based on talk on forums.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Ken,

My read of Derek's post made me think not of this thread, but all the other times, in other threads, people talk about A2 steel being a bit chippy at lower angles.

Of course a mortise chisel, no matter what steel of which it is made, shouldn't have a bevel at a paring angle.

A mortise chisel may actually be one tool that works best with a "Paul Sellers" rounded bevel.

My recently acquired 1/4" Narex mortisse chisel seems to be working fine with a flat bevel. It will likely be a few years of use and honing before it gets a bit of a round to it.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I have often told my wife that if she needs to defend herself the RI 3/8 is the one to grab :eek:

That only works if the attacker holds still long enough for her find a 32 oz mallet to drive it in.

Seriously, you want something that will slice what it can and fit into gaps between stuff it can't (trying to avoid being overly explicit). I'd probably reach for one of my skews. There's no need to get fancy.

[Mike Baker 2]

Pig sticker? What I would use is measured at .45. YMMV.

[steven c newman]

379326
These are my Mortise Chisels, have no idea what steel is in any of them.....not really a concern to me, anyway.

One Japanese, a British Zone German, a New Haven Edge Tool Co. couple of Butchers..and the older, pre Home Despot ones.
379327
Have since added a 3/8" Witherby to this mess. As long as they do the job I ask of them, fine with me.
379328Starting to get a "collection" of Brass....

[ken hatch]

Ken, I was not referring to your post. A2 comes in for a bashing a great deal for its use in plane blades and chisels. LN and Veritas both use it in their mortice chisels. My comment was simply to let others know that I consider it to be good steel for this purpose, and not to baulk at the offerings from these two companies based on talk on forums.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

No problem, While I'm not a fan of A2 for bench chisels and plane cutters I think it is a good steel for Mortise chisels. I haven't tried the LV mortise chisels yet but expect I will sometime in the future more than likely with PM steel.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

No problem, While I'm not a fan of A2 for bench chisels and plane cutters I think it is a good steel for Mortise chisels.

Sane opinion here FWIW. A2's limitation is its grain/carbide size, which is larger than either O1 or PM-V11 (but quite a bit smaller than D2). For a mortise chisel we simply shouldn't care about that. A2 is a perfectly sensible choice for that use, as is D2.



I haven't tried the LV mortise chisels yet but expect I will sometime in the future more than likely with PM steel.

Given that you like the D2 RIs I think that you would find PM-V11 to deliver similar performance in that application (though far better performance in other uses that require good edge-taking and chip-resistance). Its composition is broadly similar to D2's, and its maker states that it "can be described as ... a corrosion resistant D2 tool steel". The key difference between the two is that PM-V11 has far finer grain structure than D2 due to PM processing, but that doesn't matter as much for mortising as noted above.

[ken hatch]

Ken,

My read of Derek's post made me think not of this thread, but all the other times, in other threads, people talk about A2 steel being a bit chippy at lower angles.

Of course a mortise chisel, no matter what steel of which it is made, shouldn't have a bevel at a paring angle.

A mortise chisel may actually be one tool that works best with a "Paul Sellers" rounded bevel.

My recently acquired 1/4" Narex mortisse chisel seems to be working fine with a flat bevel. It will likely be a few years of use and honing before it gets a bit of a round to it.

jtk

Jim,

As I posted, a mortise chisel is nothing but a wedge without need for a super keen edge, I agree A2 would be/is a good steel for mortise chisels, I read once why RI picked D2 for his chisels but do not remember why D2 over A2. BTW, I sharpen my mortise chisels with a rounded bevel, gives a natural lever action.

ken

[Patrick Chase]

As I posted, a mortise chisel is nothing but a wedge without need for a super keen edge, I agree A2 would be/is a good steel for mortise chisels, I read once why RI picked D2 for his chisels but do not remember why D2 over A2.

You can very roughly think of D2 as A2 turned up to 11 (or maybe higher). They both derive their wear resistance largely from Chromium and Chromium carbides. A2 has ~5% Cr, while D2 has ~12%. D2 is therefore quite a bit more wear- and abrasion-resistant than A2, but can still be sharpened on the same media because it just contains more carbides rather than harder ones as in M4 HSS or CPM-3V.

Conventionally processed D2 also has much larger grain and worse edge-taking than A2, which is why we don't see it used much in paring chisels or plane irons, but that downside doesn't really matter for a "brute force oriented" tool like a mortise chisel. It has often been said that D2 "takes a crappy edge and holds it forever", and that's more or less what you want in this application. I also read the TFWW article that explained why Ray Iles chose D2, and IIRC it basically came down to that.

[Chet R Parks]

Patrick,
A curiosity question. Do or would you recommend a hollow ground primary bevel on a D2 RI mortise chisel? If so approximately how close to the edge would you get? I realize that depth of cut and choice of wood would probably come into play but just generally speaking.
Chet

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick,
A curiosity question. Do or would you recommend a hollow ground primary bevel on a D2 RI mortise chisel? If so approximately how close to the edge would you get? I realize that depth of cut and choice of wood would probably come into play but just generally speaking.
Chet

I don't put hollow grinds on any thick-section mortise chisels. While my cuts always "ride the back" when mortising, the bevel plays a huge role in ejecting waste out of the cut and also in levering. It seems to me that a straight profile is less likely to cause problems with those functions than one with curvature, so I use a belt- or disc-grinder when I need to do serious work on my mortise chisels.

Note that I am *not* saying: I haven't tried hollow-grinding those chisels, so I don't know that there's a problem. I simply decided that I didn't want to have to worry about that variable.

With that said I don't see any reason why the D2 RI would be unusually problematic for hollow grinding.

[Derek Cohen]

Chet, I would not recommend a hollow grind on any mortice chisel, regardless of steel ... well pehaps green kryptonite. A hollow grind will weaken an edge since inevitably the chisel will be used to lever chips. I prefer to use a rounded bevel - easier to freehand.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

Thanks Patrick, it make sense about the role a flat bevel will play in ejecting waste. I was just curious, that's all.
Chet

[Chet R Parks]

Derek, Thank you, that's why I asked. I thought about trying it but a little voice inside me kept saying "not a good idea"
Chet

[Jeff Heath]

Jeff, I have the 1/4" and 3/8" RI's and the 3/8" is huge. The 1/2" is Huger (is that a word? :) )!

Regarding D2 (in the RI) and A2 (in the LN), I spent time testing the Veritas mortice chisels pre-production. I chops miles of mortices in PM-V11 and A2 versions. The PM shaded the A2, but I was really impressed with the A2. I gave up trying to use both steels until dull. Those railing against A2 are being influenced by what they read on the forums. It is a fine steel for mortice chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Huger is a word, now! :D I bought the 1/2" to chop out bench planes. What a beast.

For the record, I have never had a problem with A2, and don't buy in to the bad wrap it gets on the forums, even for plane blades. Never have. I own several Lie Nielsen planes with A2 irons. They all work great, and I've never felt the need to buy Hock O1 replacements for them, like so many do. There's a guy on facebook who sells them (O1 replacements) like their the savior of a LN plane. What a joke. I put O1 irons in my planes, because that's what's available. If I end up starting to make my own tapered irons (buying a surface grinder very, very soon), I'll do so in O1, as well, because of the ease of heat treat. My LN planes work beautifully, and I have no problems getting those silky shavings from my 4 1/2.

The D2 in the RI chisels in this discussion is tough as nails, too, but I'd expect that out of steel this stout, and at these angles. The instruction pamphlet that came with them discussed the difficulty of sharpening them, but I'm guessing that must be a problem with certain stones I'm unfamiliar with, because I have had zero trouble sharpening mine on paper/film/whatever it's called.

[Stewie Simpson]

Jeff; when you read reviews that suggest LVs A2 has substantially better edge retention than LNs A2 the plot thickens to the stage of nausea.

[Patrick Chase]

The D2 in the RI chisels in this discussion is tough as nails, too, but I'd expect that out of steel this stout, and at these angles. The instruction pamphlet that came with them discussed the difficulty of sharpening them, but I'm guessing that must be a problem with certain stones I'm unfamiliar with, because I have had zero trouble sharpening mine on paper/film/whatever it's called.

This has already been covered in one of the other 2 threads, but D2's wear resistance mostly comes from Chromium carbides, like A2's. D2 just has more of them.

Quartz is softer than Chromium carbide, so people with natural silicate stones (Arks etc) are out of luck. Alumina is harder than Chromium carbide, so most people with synthetic stones (Indias, waterstones, Spyderco, etc) will find that D2 sharpens just fine. That's really all there is to it. As always, there is no magic :-).

[Patrick Chase]

Jeff; when you read reviews that suggest LVs A2 has substantially better edge retention than LNs A2 the plot thickens to the stage of nausea.

Metallurgy is a complicated business unfortunately, and there are things that manufacturers can do to change the performance out of even very old steels like A2. See pp 79-80 here (http://allaboutmetallurgy.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Tool-Steels.pdf) for a particularly relevant example. We know for a fact that LN is doing what's described there (austenitizing at higher-than-normal temperature to optimize grain structure, and then refrigerating to convert the resulting retained austenite), because they've said so.

With that said, I don't see much difference between my A2 LN and LV irons. Both have access to highly competent metallurgists, and they're both using state-of-the-art techniques. LN makes a bigger deal out of "cryo treatment", but they're both doing it for at least some of their steels (cryo is part of the standard HT schedule for CTS-XHP/PM-V11).

Reviewers hallucinate the darndest things IMO.

[Jeff Heath]

I'll let you guys work out all that stuff.........I work wood. I sharpen tool. I go back to working wood. The rest doesn't interest me much. The science that interests me is getting to Mars.

[Bill McDermott]

I also own and love this tool remarkably intuitive and effective tool (1/4" and 3/8"). I did experience edge failure (chipping) initially. That issue is common, explainable and easily addressed. I ground back a little, less than an 1/8th", maybe 1/16th". Problem solved. Just a heads up for folks who plan to buy this excellent tool.

[William Fretwell]

I think I read RI used D2 because it was more available in the UK in the sizes he wanted. I think that's the made in UK chisel you can only buy in New York and that's on a good day!

[John Sanford]

I have one, love it. Methinks one made with a foam blade that compresses into the handle would make an EXCELLENT Halloween/stage murder prop.

I'm just sayin'.....

[Patrick Chase]

I think I read RI used D2 because it was more available in the UK in the sizes he wanted. I think that's the made in UK chisel you can only buy in New York and that's on a good day!

Joel Moskowitz claimed (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/628/English%20Mortise%20Chisels%20-%20Mid-18th%20Century%20to%20Now%20-%20Introduction) in his blog that RI used D2 because Joel asked him to (about halfway down, para starting with "A few discussions"). Joel also states on the product page that he originally wanted A2 but chose D2 because it was more available in Sheffield, which is probably what you saw.

Those chisels are effectively a "bespoke product" for which Joel (TFWW) has historically been the sole distributor, so his recollection seems credible.

[William Fretwell]

Joel Moskowitz claimed (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/628/English%20Mortise%20Chisels%20-%20Mid-18th%20Century%20to%20Now%20-%20Introduction) in his blog that RI used D2 because Joel asked him to (about halfway down, para starting with "A few discussions"). Joel also states on the product page that he originally wanted A2 but chose D2 because it was more available in Sheffield, which is probably what you saw.

Those chisels are effectively a "bespoke product" for which Joel (TFWW) has historically been the sole distributor, so his recollection seems credible.
Found it:

"Regular modern carbon steel would be okay, but we thought that the extra toughness of A2 might be better. But in England, where these chisels are made, A2 is hard to get in the sizes we needed. So we decided on D2, a slightly more expensive, more durable, overall better tool steel."
I've not read his blog yet but did just read the slight back bevel recommendation which I had forgotten.

[Patrick Chase]

Found it:

"Regular modern carbon steel would be okay, but we thought that the extra toughness of A2 might be better. But in England, where these chisels are made, A2 is hard to get in the sizes we needed. So we decided on D2, a slightly more expensive, more durable, overall better tool steel."



Yeah, that's the bit from the product page that I was referring to. Describing D2 as "overall better" than A2 is... interesting. D2 has over twice as much Cr (12% vs 5%) and therefore much higher Chromium carbide content. Those carbides give great abrasion resistance, but when conventionally processed they result in a very coarse grain structure. As the old saw goes, D2 takes a crappy edge and holds it forever. That's perfectly fine for a mortise chisel, but I'd run screaming from D2 bench chisels or plane blades.

Powdered-metal D2-ish steels are great though. I've used two (Crucible CPM-D2 and Carpenter CTS-XHP, aka PM-V11) and they're both very nice all-round tool steels.

[Derek Cohen]

Interestingly, Patrick, I know of at least one high-end plane maker that has used D2 (as an option) in his planes for many years. That is Philip Marcou (in New Zealand). Philip is not only very knowledgeable about steel - he was also a knife maker - he has been a professional furniture maker for a few decades. Philip has said to me that it is in the heat treating. I've never pressed him on this topic, but he also speaks from a practical position.

I have a D2-bladed plane which I built. This is a single iron jack (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaJackPlane.html), and uses a very thick blade.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaJackPlane_html_m1d47a67f.jpg

It gets very sharp, and holds it a long, long time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

Tony,

Two points....It's a mortise chisel, a wedge, not a paring chisel. It doesn't need to slice your finger open at the slightest touch. It just needs to hold a kinda sharp edge through some slight abuse. The LN chisels are A2 and every bit as hard to sharpen as D2, in fact I can sharpen the Ray Iles on Ark stones, the LN not so much. I have the LN mortise chisels and they are great for cleaning out the mortise after chopping with the Ray Iles but for chopping most mortises there are better chisels for the job than the LN's.

ken

Good to know, considering the Isles Chisels.

[Günter VögelBerg]

I carelessly snapped the tip off one of these chisels once.

[Mike Henderson]

Over time i accumulated a set of Ward Pigstickers from 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch. They're just plain carbon steel but they work fine for me.

A few I bought without handles so they have new handles. The rest are original.

Mike

421703 421702

[Chris Hachet]

Over time i accumulated a set of Ward Pigstickers from 1/8 inch to 1/2 inch. They're just plain carbon steel but they work fine for me.

A few I bought without handles so they have new handles. The rest are original.

Mike

421703 421702

Amazing how well they actually work to make mortices.

[Axel de Pugey]

Out of curiosity, were the oldest english and american mortice chisels always with an oval handle such as the Pig Sticker model ?

I haven’t seen much of this kind of handle in France, octagon is more common.
My set is a Coulaux, probably made around 1850.

421772

[William Fretwell]

Fantastic condition for 170 years old. Someone has oiled them regularly! Two of the handles look like oval octagonal, forced by the shape of the blade.

[Warren Mickley]

Out of curiosity, were the oldest english and american mortice chisels always with an oval handle such as the Pig Sticker model ?

I haven’t seen much of this kind of handle in France, octagon is more common.
My set is a Coulaux, probably made around 1850.

421772

Octagonal handles were used in England for centuries. I think they are preferable.

[Axel de Pugey]

William and Warren, Many thanks.
Two of my handles are split but they are originally octagonal faceted indeed.
For a few years I read about these english Pig Sticker models like the one Lowell Holmes was showing in the original post, so I was wondering, thank you for your answer.

[Phil Gaudio]

I carelessly snapped the tip off one of these chisels once.

I had much the same experience: not a great introduction to D2.

422126

[ken hatch]

I have a hard time understanding a snapped chisel tip but especially on a pig sticker unless there is evidence of a fault in the iron. Me thinks you may have taken the advise to give the chisel a hard whack a little too literally. I find lighter taps and listening to the chisel and hammer is faster and makes a better mortise than going all Conan on it. But most important is to have someplace for the chip to go. Of course YMMV.

ken

[Nicholas Lawrence]

+1

Lie Nielsen and Paul Sellers have videos out there on youtube where a mortise is cut behind glass. Most of the cutting can be done with relatively modest taps, and if you are using the bevel to your advantage the vast majority of the chips are broken free without any prying.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Nicholas

I fear that these videos create an unrepresentative picture of morticing. For a start, the glass (in Sellers’ case) creates a very firm guide to drive bench chisels deeply. I think that this is not that easy to avoid the chisel twisting when unsupported. Secondly (recalling the other behind-glass video), the wood used looked so soft. I just wanted to break away without much resistance. I wonder how they would fare with harder and more interlocked wood? Would they do it differently?

Earlier I had hoped to get some responses from others about different morticing methods and whether the chisels they used were set up to support this. As I understand, there is no single way to make this joint. Just preferred ways. I wish others here would state this, and why - that is educational.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[lowell holmes]

Derek, What are you doing in Vienna. Nosey people want to know.:)

[Derek Cohen]

Lowell, everyone has to be somewhere. :). My wife and I have been in Vienna for the Christmas markets for the past week .. before then it was Munich. Tomorrow we leave for Berlin. Travelling around for another three weeks.

Merry Christmas!

Derek

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If you want to hit your chisels with sledgehammers and use them like wrecking bars feel free. I am trying to help the people who are breaking theirs. I have found a number of areas where a lighter touch and less muscle produced better results in my work. The videos helped me understand how to use the bevel of the chisel to better advantage. Your mileage apparently varies.


Hi Nicholas

I fear that these videos create an unrepresentative picture of morticing. For a start, the glass (in Sellers’ case) creates a very firm guide to drive bench chisels deeply. I think that this is not that easy to avoid the chisel twisting when unsupported. Secondly (recalling the other behind-glass video), the wood used looked so soft. I just wanted to break away without much resistance. I wonder how they would fare with harder and more interlocked wood? Would they do it differently?

Earlier I had hoped to get some responses from others about different morticing methods and whether the chisels they used were set up to support this. As I understand, there is no single way to make this joint. Just preferred ways. I wish others here would state this, and why - that is educational.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

No where have I suggested wacking a mortice chisel “with a sledgehammer”. How do you arrive at this? Quite the reverse, I have been asking for input to better understand the process of using a mortice chisel.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

If you want to hit your chisels with sledgehammers and use them like wrecking bars feel free. I am trying to help the people who are breaking theirs. I have found a number of areas where a lighter touch and less muscle produced better results in my work. The videos helped me understand how to use the bevel of the chisel to better advantage. Your mileage apparently varies.

My chisels are only hit with wooden mallets, thank you.


[edited]
Earlier I had hoped to get some responses from others about different morticing methods and whether the chisels they used were set up to support this. As I understand, there is no single way to make this joint. Just preferred ways. I wish others here would state this, and why - that is educational.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

Okay, here is my go at this.

My mortising chisels are a motley crew:

422161

From the left is a 1" heavy chisel with no mark used for large mortises like on a mallet. Next is a 1/2" marked Thos Ibbotson & Co. The third is 3/8" and marked Newbould. Fourth is a 5/16" bearing a mark of James Cam. The last straight mortise chisel is a 1/4" Narex. The two swan neck or lock mortise chisels are a 1/8" Buck Bros and a 1/4" Henry Taylor.

The Newbould and the James Cam were my first mortise chisels purchased on ebay. Here is the image of them from ebay:

422163

And an excerpt from the description:


The wider chisel has a cutting edge of 3/8" and is stamped NEWBOULD, a mark used by Samuel Newbould. He is listed as an "edgetool maker" on Sheffield Moor in the Directory of Sheffield for 1787. This example has two early features. The bolster where the blade enters the handle is not the integral, faceted one that is usual; instead, there is a disk that the blade passes through and a very heavy, hand forged ferrule behind it (see photo). The disk is like that on a Samurai sword. The other early feature is that the chisel has a steel edge welded to an iron backbone, much like early axes. The steel will hold an edge much longer than iron, but wrought iron is tougher and less brittle for the body of a tool. The line between the steel and iron can be seen along the edge of the NEWBOULD blade (see photo). The chisel is about 9½ inches in length. The length from the tip to the beginning of the exposed wood in the handle is about 7 inches.
The second chisel is lightly stamped JAMES CAM, who started in Sheffield in 1781, according to Goodman’s book on British plane-makers. He is listed in the 1787 Directory as a "filesmith" working on "Norfolk-street," but he branched out to edge tools. This chisel has a 5/16" cutting edge and the more usual Sheffield faceted bolster.

The current handles are from my earliest attempts at making chisel handles.

As with other joinery, making a mortise & tenon joint starts with the layout. The M&T joint begins with setting a mortise gauge to the chisel:

422164

The conventional wisdom for M&T joints is to make the motise or tenon 1/3 of the thickness of the wood. The wood used here is 1-1/2" so the 1/2" chisel is used.

Making the mortise first works for me, others may want to make the tenon first. To me, it is easier to adjust the tenon to fit than to adjust a mortise to fit. It is really a pain to make a mortise smaller.

The gauge is used to mark out the area to be mortised and a square is used to mark the ends. My starting point is in the center:

422166

When marking out joinery, it is a good idea to mark your faces so everything is oriented to be measured from matching faces.

The chisel is hit without hesitation but one is not trying to knock it through the work. For the next hit, the chisel is turned around and hit again:

422167

This is repeated turning the chisel after each blow and moving the chisel's bevel slightly toward the end of the mortise. This will cause a vee to form. As the bevel rides down the previous cut it will penetrate deeper into the work:

422170

As the work progresses the waste will start to form large flakes from the bevel pushing against the slope and the chisel back pushing against the waste. The bevel works as a wedge. The mortise progresses deeper as the chisel is turned and moved from end to end. This is done until the bevel gets close to were the mortise is to stop. This helps to prevent mashing the end when levering out the waste. The slopes can then be chopped vertically a little at a time back to the marked ends.

Cleaning out the bottom or levering out the waste in a tight spot is facilitated by using a lock mortise or a swan neck chisel:

422171

For me a lock mortise chisel smaller than the motise chisel is easier to use than one that is the same size as the mortise chisel.

The finished mortise:

422172

The mortise doesn't need to be pretty. It will be covered by the shoulders on the piece with the tenon.

jtk

[ken hatch]

No where have I suggested wacking a mortice chisel “with a sledgehammer”. How do you arrive at this? Quite the reverse, I have been asking for input to better understand the process of using a mortice chisel.

Regards from Vienna

Derek

Derek,

I agree we need a thread on technique. I think where the talk of heavy blows on the chisel comes from is because of the posts on snapping the tips of chisels while mortising. If there is not a forging fault in the chisel it had to be driven in too deep and/or there was no place for the chip to go. That goes back to your original post on mortise technique.

BTW, thanks Jim for posting your process.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Happy to do it Ken, it helps me to reflect on what is taking place by writing it down.

One thing that always seems to slip my mind including when trying to document mortising. It is something to think about when whacking a chisel with a mallet.

A tight grip on the mallet when the chisel is imbedded will transmit the shock back to one's hand. This will feel like having a hand full of bees. When starting a mortise it is one whack at a time. After all it is not like trying to drive a nail. Mortising is whack, turn, whack, turn… repeat as needed.

That is what works for me, 422192

jtk

[ken hatch]

Thank you Jim,

Jim covered most of the important areas so I do not have much to add other than chopping a mortise is more about technique than brute force. With my Hornbeam handle and Japanese mortise chisels I use metal hammers instead of wood or other softer mallets. A metal hammer takes less force than a wood mallet to provide the same action. Less force gives better control. It is important to take only what the wood and chisel give you and to always have path to remove the chip with little force, it is more of a flick than a lever. Levering the waste does two things both slow you down, it destroys the cutting edge of your chisel and usually requires putting the hammer down. In addition the chisel is prone to twisting which enlarges the mortise hole. The old saying about "slow down to go fast" applies to chopping mortises, go lighter to go faster.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Roy Underhill has a video on making mallets, Big Ash Mallet (https://www.pbs.org/video/big-ash-mallet-jn5sfd/), with a demonstration on making a large mortise and using an auger to get through much of the waste. If my memory is correct he also shows the unpleasantness of getting one's chisel trapped (stuck).

jtk

[Nicholas Lawrence]

That is a good video. Basically what I did to chop the mortice for the stop on my Nicholson Bench, and it is a good technique for a wide and deep mortise.

For narrower mortises, and shallower mortises, using just the chisel (either starting in the center like the Lie Nielsen video, or starting on one end like in Sellers video) works fine for me. The stair step technique (going a whack or so deeper each time you move your chisel across) is important, because it gives the bevel a place to push the waste into.

I don’t know about twisting. Once you get the thing started, the sides act almost like a fence. I would think you would almost have to try to get it to twist in the cut (assuming we are talking about a traditional mortise chisel that is sized for the mortise).

In my experience the traditional chisels work better in American hardwoods (oak, walnut) than in the softwood in the Lie Nielsen video. I don’t know about exotic stuff.

[lowell holmes]

Here is my mallet.

https://paulsellers.com/2013/04/heres-my-mallet/

I attended Homestead Heritage when Paul was there and afterwards.

On one of the trips it came home with me.

[Jim Koepke]

It is important to take only what the wood and chisel give you and to always have path to remove the chip with little force, it is more of a flick than a lever. Levering the waste does two things both slow you down, it destroys the cutting edge of your chisel and usually requires putting the hammer down.

This caused me to think and reflect a bit on my process.

If one has to set down their mallet/hammer to use both hands to 'lever out the waste,' then the chisel has likely been driven too deep.

Yes, it is more of a flick than a levering action; whack, flick, turn, whack… repeat.

For levering out accumulated waste a lock mortise chisel is made for the job. It is also good for those of us who in our compulsive way like to have a smooth bottom in our mortises.

jtk

[steven c newman]

David Weaver, a few years ago, post a series of youtube videos.....by GE Hong. Traditional Chinese Woodworking. The fellow doing the work in these videos would put most of the posters on this site to shame....by the speed, accuracy, and technique he uses to chop a mortise....either for a tenon, or a through mortise. His "mallet" is already starting it's swing, while he is still moving the chisel to the next spot. One hit, wiggle the chisel, move the chisel, repeat.....the "Mallet"? A No. 2 Carpenter's hatchet....

[lowell holmes]

My wife and I made a cruise down the Rhine years ago.
I remember it fondly and recommend it.

[William Fretwell]

I chop the marked edge all around with a wide chisel to stop surface tear out. Starting in the middle I chop a V ; the wood has to have somewhere to go for the wood fibres to shear. Working back the first cut goes deeper, move the chisel back again and it goes a little deeper, perhaps three times. Any further back the chisel binds. I then chop from the middle at 45 degrees to release the waste, then continue widening the mortice. The same method on the other side of the V and repeat the whole thing until the required depth is reached.
Morticing is all about shearing wood fibres, either with the sharp edge or side of the chisel. The steep angle of pig stickers provides far more side shearing than regular chisels. The side shearing relies on sufficient movement of wood fibres, this does not occur near the tip. Levering adds to the side movement shearing with the tip as a fulcrum. The shearing is however far slower than a mallet blow, the tear out greater.
My own technique involves using a wide chisel periodically to release the side fibres as I go; this is essential near the bottom of the mortice as the side shearing of the pig sticker is non existent.
I do little levering and more chopping. I clean the sides with a wide chisel.
The object is to maximize the contact between mortice and tenon with smooth surfaces that will swell with glue. The fibres are at right angles so the glue connection is poor. With humidity cycles the glue joint will tend to weaken. The smoother and tighter the longer it will last. I also always peg the joint with slightly offset holes.
Large mortice and tenon work invites drilling to largely remove the waste along with stout wide chisels, not pig stickers.

[Jim Koepke]

[edited]
My own technique involves using a wide chisel periodically to release the side fibres as I go; this is essential near the bottom of the mortice as the side shearing of the pig sticker is non existent.
I do little levering and more chopping. I clean the sides with a wide chisel.
The object is to maximize the contact between mortice and tenon with smooth surfaces that will swell with glue. The fibres are at right angles so the glue connection is poor. With humidity cycles the glue joint will tend to weaken. The smoother and tighter the longer it will last. I also always peg the joint with slightly offset holes.
Large mortice and tenon work invites drilling to largely remove the waste along with stout wide chisels, not pig stickers.

Some what the same as my technique.

One thing did come to mind about levering. Mostly my levering is toward the open area already cut. It is not against the end walls except when using a swan neck or lock mortise chisel.

422359

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I chop the marked edge all around with a wide chisel to stop surface tear out. Starting in the middle I chop a V ; the wood has to have somewhere to go for the wood fibres to shear. Working back the first cut goes deeper, move the chisel back again and it goes a little deeper, perhaps three times. Any further back the chisel binds. I then chop from the middle at 45 degrees to release the waste, then continue widening the mortice. The same method on the other side of the V and repeat the whole thing until the required depth is reached.
Morticing is all about shearing wood fibres, either with the sharp edge or side of the chisel. The steep angle of pig stickers provides far more side shearing than regular chisels. The side shearing relies on sufficient movement of wood fibres, this does not occur near the tip. Levering adds to the side movement shearing with the tip as a fulcrum. The shearing is however far slower than a mallet blow, the tear out greater.
My own technique involves using a wide chisel periodically to release the side fibres as I go; this is essential near the bottom of the mortice as the side shearing of the pig sticker is non existent.
I do little levering and more chopping. I clean the sides with a wide chisel.
The object is to maximize the contact between mortice and tenon with smooth surfaces that will swell with glue. The fibres are at right angles so the glue connection is poor. With humidity cycles the glue joint will tend to weaken. The smoother and tighter the longer it will last. I also always peg the joint with slightly offset holes.
Large mortice and tenon work invites drilling to largely remove the waste along with stout wide chisels, not pig stickers.

Thank you William.

In beginning with a central V, I think that you are in the same company as Jim and Warren.

I enquired about technique and also about how you sharpen your mortice chisel, whether this is a single bevel or with a secondary bevel. Warren has mentioned on a few occasions that he considers it important to be able to ride the bevel, and that this would be made difficult with a secondary bevel. I can see this and have no argument with him, however (as I understand) one may also ride the back of the chisel, which is essentially what I believe happens in the method I have been using.

As you noted, waste needs to go somewhere, and therefore a hole is drilled at one end to begin ...

https://i.postimg.cc/d3gyZ8Qh/MorticingByChisel_html_7fa3da55.jpg

Then chopping straight down will drive the waste towards the hole ..

https://i.postimg.cc/h4YxYq8K/MorticingByChisel_html_m4bc31133.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/QxW5GnS1/MorticingByChisel_html_m5fbd2a47.jpg

Then you turn the chisel around and return.

https://i.postimg.cc/DyKshPNN/Morticing-By-Chisel-html-m4526fe3f.jpg

I have a distant memory of Warren and I (on WoodCentral) timing this method separately, and it was a close thing.

This method uses the back of the chisel to cut, and I believe that it is unaffected by a small secondary bevel. I am happy to be wrong if that leads to a more efficient use if a mortice chisel.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

422373
Mortise toys...
422374
Try one like this...
422375
Had some "crumbs" down in the bottom...repeat 7 times...
422376
And, carry on...mortises are sized to fit the tenons....tenons are sized to fit the chisel's width. Fancy handled chisel has a curved end, to clean up the chips. Chop at the one end, flat against the line, then each chop is a bit further along the mortise, until right before the end, and reverse the chisel. Not trying to chop the entire 1/2" depth at one go ( why rush, just leads to mistakes) with the third trip along the 1" long mortise being about the right depth....I use the curved chisel to clean things out, after each trip. Usually do all of this while sitting down at my shop stool. Hurts the back to bend over the bench all day long, when I can just sit down on the job. Chisel was a 6mm. single bevel Narex.....wood was Ash.
422377
Shop stool. I set the chisel down for a bit, to check the depth...and, you can see the mallet I used...
422378
Rowdy Yates model ( Rawhide?)...though, sometimes I will use a steel one...
422379
All 7 oz of it. Called a Tinners Hammer......used for the rivets they used. Also make a darn good brad hammer.

[Derek Cohen]

Chop at the one end, flat against the line, then each chop is a bit further along the mortise, until right before the end, and reverse the chisel.

Steven, that is as depicted by my demo - but without the hole - have you tried this? Just chopping seems more work.

Nevertheless, that makes three for the V and two for vertical chopping.

Regards from a cold Prague.

Derek

[steven c newman]

Drilling the hole would take more time.....and can lead to alignment problems, if the hole is not done perfect.....a slight tilt could spell trouble.

[Derek Cohen]

Drilling the hole would take more time.....and can lead to alignment problems, if the hole is not done perfect.....a slight tilt could spell trouble.

You’ll have to explain this, Steven. As I use it, the chisel does not touch the hole. It is for the waste.

More time involved? Only at the start. Then it picks up in pace.

Regards from Prague

Derek

[lowell holmes]

This string is almost 2 years old. Who would have thought it.:)

[William Fretwell]

This method uses the back of the chisel to cut, and I believe that it is unaffected by a small secondary bevel. I am happy to be wrong if that leads to a more efficient use if a mortice chisel.

Derek

The back of the chisel cuts down but the front bevel shears the waste. The front bevel’s shearing action creates the texture of the mortice sides. A secondary bevel will take on more of the shearing than the primary bevel. It may increase the rate of shear which could be a good thing but if it is then the primary bevel is too shallow an angle. Different woods WILL have a different optimum shear angle. Putting more force on the tip seems counter productive but sharpening a large D2 bevel will convince most of us a very small secondary bevel will be forgiven by the elasticity of the wood.
Shearing out a mortice with a pig sticker is productive but not elegant, cleaning up the sides with a wide chisel and tuning the tenon to fit can help but when you get good, tampering with an even, squared mortice is counterproductive.

[Warren Mickley]

Thank you William.
In beginning with a central V, I think that you are in the same company as Jim and Warren.

I have a distant memory of Warren and I (on WoodCentral) timing this method separately, and it was a close thing.

Regards from Perth
Derek

I have never tried the "central V" method. And I have never said how long it takes to make a mortise. You are confused on both of these.

On the Woodcentral forum in 2013 you called your method the "most efficient". I was skeptical and asked how long it took to make a certain size mortise.

Your reply: "No idea "how long", Warren. Never timed this."

[steven c newman]

Unnecessary step...and really not worth the effort. Those 8 mortises were done during a 2 hour work session...that also included cutting and drilling four corner blocks...
422415
Each corner block needed cut from a 1 x 2, at 45 degrees on each end..
422416
Pilot holes (8) and then counter sunk...
422417
Using the countersink drill. Test fits..
422418
Once all the mortises and tenons were done...tenons were done first,BTW...then assemble with glue and clamps..
422419
And the corner blocks installed with glue and screws.

Not too bad, for 2 hours of shop time? Only step left out? slots needed drilled...
422420
These are how I attach a top to a base....slots allow the top to expand/contract. Screws have a washer under the head, to allow the slide to happen.
So...maybe 10 minutes per mortise?

[Derek Cohen]

I have never tried the "central V" method. And I have never said how long it takes to make a mortise. You are confused on both of these.

On the Woodcentral forum in 2013 you called your method the "most efficient". I was skeptical and asked how long it took to make a certain size mortise.

Your reply: "No idea "how long", Warren. Never timed this."

Warren, that was 7 years ago, and all I recall was a discussion how quickly it took to get to depth with the chisel.

Now, rather than saying what you do not do, how about explaining what you do? That would be appreciated.

Regards from Prague

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I went looking for a 2013 thread on morticing chisels at WC. I cannot link to there, but below is one of my responses to Warren and others about penetration. I chose this on because it refers to issues I considered important to penetration, but also as it illustrates the V method of waste removal (possibly this is why I seemed to recall Warren using it - but obviously does not do so). Just information for discussion and learning ..

I said:
The issue is whether it is is easier or more efficient to make a mortice in hardwood with a chisel that has a 20 degree primary bevel and a 35 degree secondary microbevel (in my case a rounded one), as is the case with what I have come to believe is traditional, versus a primary bevel of 30 degrees, which is your preference.

Tom said:
What is easier about it? just the penetration?


David wrote:
I see two interesting things about the chisel being used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-1-G26NBI
First, the chisel has a flat bevel, as warren prefers
Second, it looks like the cross section of it was either ground or deliberately made so that it is fairly light at the business end (relative to the rest of it) and very heavy at the shank of the chisel.


Hi Tom, David and all


It is all about penetration in my view. All things held equal, narrower primary bevel will require less force and penetrate the wood more easily than a thicker primary bevel.


After David posted I did a little "research". What I wanted was to view and examine the way a mortice chisel entered the wood. The video he linked to shows a configuration similar to a Japanese mortice chisel, but note that Ge Hong has ground away some of the shaft ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice%20chisels/ChinesemorticechiselGeHong1_zps8a43d5e1.jpg


I would assume that the reason is to effectively reduce the amount of steel entering the wood.


Ge Hong works quickly, partly because he uses rapid hammer taps. He is also an experienced woodworker (I have watched him for a few years).


I next looked at someone using a English Bolstered Mortice Chisel that was set up as per the method advocated by Joel (and used by myself): 20 degree primary bevel and 35 degree secondary bevel. The woodworker here is Peter


video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1bo6NVYCc0
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice%20chisels/Follansbee1_zps0af5e9c4.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice%20chisels/Follansbee2_zps2c6ddcba.jpg

Peter does not say what the size of the chisel is, but we know the wood is oak. The video is about demonstrating his method, which is not relevant at this time, but what we see is that he rapidly penetrates the wood. 3 or 4 blows to get down about 1" with what looks like a 16-18 oz mallet.


Next we have a video by Paul Sellers. This one was made by him to demonstrate that a simple bench chisel may be used effectively for morticing compared to a English OBM chisel (although he does state that extra effort is required to keep it square). The video is here ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA

What was not made clear is that the primary bevel angle of the OBM chisel is 30 degrees and is 3/8" wide ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice%20chisels/Sellers1_zps0d7b9696.jpg

He is also chopping onto what looks like oak. His Thor mallet (I have one similar) weighs 20 oz. He looks to be penetrating more slowly that Peter F did.


Then he switches to a blue handled Marples chisel ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Mortice%20chisels/Sellers2_zps4795a9eb.jpg


... and literally scampers through the wood.


Penetration is very rapid. Why? My interpretation is that there is little steel to hinder its progress through the wood. The 30-35 degree rounded bevel Sellers favours is small enough to compare directly with that of the OBM chisel with a 20 degree primary bevel.


Method of working, weight of mallet, density of the wood ... there are several factors that make it difficult to compare chisels directly.


Over this past weekend I was demonstrating at the Perth Tool Event (run by LN). I chose to build a night stand/bedside table as this contained mortices, tenons, sliding dovetails, dovetails, etc. Since it was just a demo I used pine. There were 6 mortices 3 1/2" long x 1" deep. Using a Ray Iles 1/4" OBN chisel and a 38 oz mallet, it took 1 blow to reach full depth. Frankly one could have used anything to make these mortices. The same mortices into a hardwood such as Jarrah would have taken 3-4 blows. In the past, when I used Japanese chisels (with a 30 degree primary bevel) it took longer. Longer here is not about time, but about more blows and a greater amount of effort. The Pine and the Jarrah represent two extremes. I imagine most other woodworkers would be somewhere between. The harder the wood, the more you may notice if you used these chisels side-by-side. The softer the wood, it would likely not make that much difference.


Regards from Perth


Derek