Waterstones

[Ray Newman]

Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate. The out-the-door price, tax included, was just shy of US $1200.00. Aint no way I am spending that 'kinda' money if there are alternatives.

A friend raves 'bout the Naniwa Sharpening Stone -- New Super Stone? But I 'duunno.'

Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.

[Tom M King]

Get the three stone set from Tools from Japan. It's probably a little over a couple of hundred bucks now. You'll have to wait a little while for it to get here, but prices can't be beaten, if that matters.

[David Bassett]

Get the three stone set from Tools from Japan. It's probably a little over a couple of hundred bucks now. You'll have to wait a little while for it to get here, but prices can't be beaten, if that matters.

That'd be the Sigma Power Ceramic Set Stu offered. (I don't see it on his site right now.) You could order ala carte, his legendary set was Sigma Power Ceramic Water Stones #1000 Hard, #6000, #13000, and a Atoma #400 diamond stone (for flattening). He also has many other stones to choose from.

You should search head to the Neanderthal sub-forum and do a search. Some stones don't work well with some steels, plus there is a huge amount of personal preference involved. (Honestly the discussions can get a little religious and heated, but there's a lot of good info buried in the, ah, vigorous debate.)

ETA: you don't say what you are sharpening. E.g. HCS will leave you more options than you would with A2. (If you're talking M4, M42, or CPM-10V, options narrow more.) Plus, if you're sharpening turning tools I should have suggested searching the Turning sub-forum for a whole different set of options.

[Derek Cohen]

Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate. The out-the-door price, tax included, was just shy of US $1200.00. Aint no way I am spending that 'kinda' money if there are alternatives.

A friend raves 'bout the Naniwa Sharpening Stone -- New Super Stone? But I 'duunno.'

Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.

Hi Ray

First of all, the glass Shaptons are a different breed of waterstone, and I would steer clear of them. They have a very hard binder and are aimed at cutting rather than polishing steel. For glass stones to polish, you need more stones in the end. Too much work.

Secondly, for efficiency, you need to grind your blades. I'm assuming that you are referring to hand plane and bench chisels. Modern blades are thick and hard, and removing some of the steel via a hollow grind speeds up sharpening. If you are willing to spend a little - and this will be a one off - get a 6" or 8" bench grinder (hard speed is better but full speed is OK) and add a 180 grit CBN wheel. These grind cool (almost as cool as the Tormek) and never wear - so settings do not change, and no pre-soaking is needed.

Finally, there are many alternatives with waterstones. My set up includes the Shapton Pro 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000.

EDIT TO ADD: The Ultimate Grinding-Sharpening Set Up (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Justin Ludwig]

Do you own a bench grinder? Buy a 6” or find one at a pawn shop/flea market. Unless you just love standing over stones and progressing up grits.

Build a tool rest for it or buy the wolverine setup. Buy an edgemaking (https://www.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-Edgmaking-System-arbor/dp/B0002IXQD8)wheel and some red rouge buffing compound. Hollow grind your primary bevel, then worksharp buff the secondary. I can have mirrored stupid sharp edge in a fraction of the time.

I bought a cheap set of stones on eBay for $45. 400/1000 and 3000/8000 along with a flattening stone. Took me 20 minutes to get razor edge on new chisel (flattening the back included.) I took another new chisel and had it making bald spots on my arm in 3 minutes using the 120grit wheel and edgemaking (https://www.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-Edgmaking-System-arbor/dp/B0002IXQD8)wheel.

If you MUST use stones for whatever your reason. All you need is 1000/8000 and a leather strop with compound. Stop letting your edges get so dull and lap them on the strop after each use (or during if you have a lot of planing to do) and they’ll maintain an edge.

I’ve read Lee’s book on sharpening. I’ve watched countless videos. I’ve owned the edgemaking (https://www.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-Edgmaking-System-arbor/dp/B0002IXQD8)for three 3 years and you can not remotely get close to its efficacy. I want to be stooped over a piece of wood, not a stone.

edit: I have no affiliation with Edgemaking system other than being a satisfied customer.

[Prashun Patel]

I have shapton 1000, 5000, and 8000. That and a diamond flattening plate cost me about $300.

[Mike Cutler]

Ray
I have a set of waterstones. Don't remember the makers, but they work great.
I have a 220 to remove gross material. Then they range from 400-8000 grit. They are always in a tub of water, and have been for over 10 years. They're always ready to go.
Two tips to avoid hunching over the like Justin stated. Do it right the first time and touch them up as you go. That way you avoid be hunched over water stones. ;)
It doesn't take much to keep them sharp.
$1200 to sharpen chisels and plane irons is a bit excessive for me.

[Mike Walsh]

I have a set of Ohishi stones (1000, 6000, 10000) from Lie Nielsen that I like - they've held up well for a few years and don't need soaking.Got an Atoma diamond plate from Amazon for flattening them and use the low speed Rikon grinder for hollow grinds. From a quick Google search, the stones are currently total about $225, you can always find the grinder someplace for around $100 and the plate is $80

[Chet R Parks]

Ray,
You could get a 10 inch CBN wheel for your Tormek, Spartan - Affordable CBN Wheels (https://woodturnerswonders.com/collections/spartan-affordable-cbn-wheel-1) no water, no waiting for less than $200. I just bought 2 wheels and don't regret it.
Chet

[Justin Ludwig]

I remembered incorrectly. I outfitted my 6" bench grinder with the Edgemaking system from Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Razor-Sharp-Edgmaking-System-arbor/dp/B0002IXQD8

I put the edge this produces up against any edge you could produce by water or oil stones.

[Andrew Seemann]

The Tormek is great for grinding, but I'm not sure why you would use the Tormek for every sharpening, it seems like a lot of time and a waste of steel.

I only use my Tormek to set the bevels on the blades, which it is good at and doesn't need to be done often. The secondary bevel and in between sharpenings/honings are done on waterstones, and those take about 30 seconds. You only need to hit the small secondary bevel, not the whole edge.

If you already have the Tormek, it would seem to make sense to keep using that to grind the primary bevels, rather than investing more money and even more time in low grit waterstones, and just get some higher grit waterstones for touch up. It going to take a lot longer to do a primary bevel on a waterstone than dump some water in the Tormek and grind, and then top off the water mid grind as needed.

[Jason Baker IX]

I bought a set of shapton pro waterstones (1000, 5000, 8000) and an Atoma #400 diamond plate from Tools From Japan for less than $300. Add an inexpensive leather strop with some compound and you are all set. I spent a couple bucks on a large ceramic tile from a big box store and glued some sander belt pieces to it for those rare times when I need to lap a plane or remove metal quickly. I cannot imagine spending $1200 on waterstones.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I didn't read every reply, because it's a sharpening thread, and they always stray far off the original question, so I am sorry if this has already been said, but here's my reply to your question:

The Shapton Glass stones are excellent stones, but you don't need that full set, especially at that price. The diamond plate is nearly $400 by itself. I have one (super deal for a used one on eBay- I would never pay $400 for a lapping plate) and it is by far the best diamond plate I have ever used, but you can get a DMT and do a fine job for 1/3 or less the price.

Get the Shapton Glass 1k, 4k, and 8k to start. Fill in the gaps as needed. Get a DMT dia-sharp lapping plate. You're good to go.

By the way, the Tormek stones are thirsty, but I have always just filled it up with the wheel turning and started sharpening, and as it soaked up more water I added a bit more for the first few minutes and then it stops soaking.

[brian zawatsky]

This is the set that I have, and I’ve been very happy with them so far. I don’t pre-soak any of the stones (even the 1k), just keep a spray bottle with water close by and keep them wet as you sharpen. A cheap 8k nagura stone to raise slurry on the 8k and 12k stones improved their performance drastically. From what I understand these are the same stones as the Shapton Pro series, just the Japanese equivalent. They are a bit cheaper.
My experience is limited however, as I have never used any other brand of stones. I can say that I get a scalpel-sharp polished edge off of the 12k stone with no need for a strop.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYEYKE8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_QIXHAbTJ5T89Y

[David Bassett]

This is the set that I have, and I’ve been very happy with them so far. I don’t pre-soak any of the stones (even the 1k), just keep a spray bottle with water close by and keep them wet as you sharpen. A cheap 8k nagura stone to raise slurry on the 8k and 12k stones improved their performance drastically. From what I understand these are the same stones as the Shapton Pro series, just the Japanese equivalent. They are a bit cheaper.
My experience is limited however, as I have never used any other brand of stones. I can say that I get a scalpel-sharp polished edge off of the 12k stone with no need for a strop.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FYEYKE8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_QIXHAbTJ5T89Y

Christopher Schwarz likes those and wrote about the change in importer in his PopWood Blog (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/important-shapton-news-price-cut). (It does look like they're only 15mm thick, so remember that when comparing prices. Many stones are 25mm thick and give you a little more abrasive.)

[Jim Koepke]

Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate.
[edited]
Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.

Everybody loves to spend other folks money.

Malcolm gave a great answer to the Tormek soaking problem.

My solution would have been to start soaking the Tormek first thing into the shop, knowing that something is going to need sharpening, if you are doing any work. During the warm months this is how my water stones are handled. Sometimes they are just left in the water bath. A continuous soaking may not be a feasible answer for the Tormek.

Of course in my shop there is no heat. This means hard water, frozen, during the cold months. That is when my sharpening turns to oil stones. Seeing you location in your profile, Between No Where & No Place ,WA, my guess is you are not very close to my location. If you are close enough, you are welcome to come see and test drive my sharpening set up. If this is the case or you have reason to travel toward Portland, send me a PM. My most used water stones are a 1000 or 2000 Norton a 4000 King and an 8000 Norton. These are all used on my plane and chisel blades. Gouges and molding plane blades are sharpened on oil stones. A slip with a gouge or even a straight blade can wreak havoc on a water stone. Often when working with a tool and a drop off in performance is noticed it can be sharpened quickly with just the 4000 & 8000 stones.

If this was something for me to do all over again, my stones would likely be purchased from Stu at Tools From Japan. The sets he had before seem to have made a lot of satisfied customers.

For quick metal removal on a damaged blade or one brought into the shop from out in the wild my solution was to purchase a 4' hunk of granite from a monument maker (gravestone carver) and attach some PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed sandpaper. For me a 360 grit seems to work fine. This is on its own bench, made like a tall saw horse, in the shop.

379214

This is excellent for flattening backs or renewing a bevel damaged by chipping or hitting a knot. For my use a holder was rigged up to keep the angle constant when working on a bevel.

As for other powered systems, some will use a belt sander. Knife makers have been using specialized belt sanders for years. My power sharpener is likely something you do not need since you already have a Tormek.

Just for the record, someone else may find this thread a dozen years from now, this is my power set up > http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072 < This is my use it for everything powered abrasive set up. It has been used on shovels, axes, knives, turning tools and even to clean up non-tool metal or rounding the ends on dowels. It is versatile.

If you do not purchase a lot of used tools to rehab, one or two tool holders will be enough. My original needs had me getting five so the tools would have time to cool between each grinding. One tool would be worked until hot and then by the time four more tools did the same the first one would be cool again. My tool accumulations have slowed down over time and now only one or two tools are worked at the same time.

My only disclaimer on the Veritas Mk.ll Power Sharpening System is it is set up to make a secondary bevel. This occurs due to the thickness of the abrasive sheets. My solution is to shim up the disk with the finer abrasive sheets to match the height of the coarser sheets. Most of the time after the second abrasive is used the work is taken to the stones for flat blade. With carving tools and gouges the work is done freehand so the platter thickness isn't a consideration.

Most likely this is more information than you wanted.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Christopher Schwarz likes those and wrote about the change in importer in his PopWood Blog (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/important-shapton-news-price-cut). (It does look like they're only 15mm thick, so remember that when comparing prices. Many stones are 25mm thick and give you a little more abrasive.)

The Pro stones are 15 mm thick. The Glass stones only have 5 mm of sharpening media, except for the $80 double-thickness 500# which has 10 mm. The glass stones are also somewhat softer than the pros as their design center was A2 (vs HCS for the pros), so it's sort of a double-whammy of short stone life.

On a per-unit-volume basis the Shapton Glass stones are by far the most expensive synthetics on the market, and IMO there's nothing special about them that justifies that sort of pricing. They consist of alumina abrasive in a resinoid binder, just like several other brands. If I were going to spend that sort of money I'd go with Choseras though (the old 25 mm thick versions that are still available in various channels).

I'd second the recommendation of the 1k-6k-13k set from Stu. I ordered one for somebody a couple months ago, so I know he's still selling. As others have said, it consists of the "1K hard" and baseless 6K and 13K stones from here: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403.

[Warren West]

Colleagues: need some recommendations as to a water stone set. Am tired of the Tormek required pre soaking time before use. As a result, I put off sharpening or touching up the edge until it is really dull.

Last time I was at the local tool emporium, clerk raved about the Shapton glass backed stones. It all sounded almost believable until he quoted me an out the door price for the all grits that I really needed to sharpen well as well as the necessary Shapton diamond lapping plate. The out-the-door price, tax included, was just shy of US $1200.00. Aint no way I am spending that 'kinda' money if there are alternatives.

A friend raves 'bout the Naniwa Sharpening Stone -- New Super Stone? But I 'duunno.'

Need some recommendation as to grits and brand. Thanks for any help.

OMG $1200 of consumables for sharpening! Crazy.

1. The Tormek is a grinder - treat is as such. I own one also and it's only for major repairs or intial comissioning of a tool.

2. The Tormek's finiest grit with the stone grader is around 1000 and then you go to the PA 70. The to replicate that in a waterstone could be done with a 300/1000 combo stone. Easily under $125. No need to spend $1200.

3. Waterstone users tend to like micro grit progressions. 400, 800, 1000, 1200, 2000, 2001, 2002... way too many grits involved.

4. For actual woodworking 2 or 3 grits of stones and a strop will cover it all. I carve wood and can get the edge I need off a 300/1000 grit diamond stone and a strop, or a coarse/fine india and a strop and sometimes when i'm feeling really crazy I'll throw in a soft ark. I do have two strops a 400 grit silicon carbide on leather and simichrome on leather. I don't always use the simichrome strop. The 400 grit silicon carbide makes quick work the edge off 1000 grit diamond or fine India. If you haven't tried 400 grit silicon carbide on leather, don't tell me it's too coarse.

[Patrick Chase]

Christopher Schwarz likes those and wrote about the change in importer in his PopWood Blog (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/important-shapton-news-price-cut). (It does look like they're only 15mm thick, so remember that when comparing prices. Many stones are 25mm thick and give you a little more abrasive.)

Too bad he decided to "skip the drama". I suspect that it involves Harrelson Stanley (the previous distributor) pissing off his largest customer (LN) to the point where they imported, branded, and marketed their own line of resinoid waterstones.

While I don't agree with Schwartz about a lot, he's right about the glass stones. They're way too much money for 1/3 the abrasive (1/5 if you compare to any maker not named "Shapton" or "Naniwa").

[Derek Cohen]

....

The Shapton Glass stones are excellent stones, but you don't need that full set,....
Get the Shapton Glass 1k, 4k, and 8k to start. Fill in the gaps as needed..

Malcolm, please don't take this personally, but I am very suspicious of the glass stones. Not only are they thin, and poor value-for-money, as Patrick also points out, but Stu (Tools from Japan) made some negatives remarks in a blog post a few years back. I re-read this post recently, and it is really interesting. The link is here (http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/wordpress/?p=539), however the relevant aspects are these (quoting Stu) ...

"Old school simply means that the binder in the stone is clay based, so it breaks apart very easily or can be described as ‘readily friable’.In coarser stones, it constantly exposes fresh, sharp abrasive so the stones cut fast. The trade off is that they will go out of flat rapidly because the surface is constantly being stripped away as the tool rubs across it. The gaps between abrasive will allow some spent grit to sink into the stone, and some will remain on the surface unless you wash it off.

In finer grit stones, the same effect happens to a lesser degree. In this case, because the stone’s abrasive is finer, the stripped grit/binder can’t go anywhere but on the surface of the stone creating a slurry or mud. This slurry is composed of abrasive, clay binder and steel particles. As it gets rubbed, the abrasive becomes smaller and cuts finer, the surface of the stone begins to plug up so the effect is exacerbated. In short, you effectively end up with a polishing compound which should give you a great edge. To make the stone cut faster, wash off the slurry exposing fresh abrasive and helping unclog the stone’s surface.
This polishing effect also occurs in the coarser stones but to a lesser degree.

It also means that making a #1000 to #6000/8000 jump in stone grit is easily done with no real ill effects.

Newer stones use a ceramic or resin based binder which is either a lot harder so the abrasive is is not so rapidly stripped away (think Shapton) or the binder is more resistant to abrasion while still remaining quite soft (Sigma Power, Bester). Naniwa Superstones are somewhere in the middle.

Because the binder holds together longer, the grit ends up doing more work before being discarded meaning you need to have a harder, more resilient abrasive. Finding the balance between binder and abrasive so you get a stone that will cut quickly without being torn up too quickly is where the difference between the newer ‘ceramic’ stones is compared to the old school clay based ones.

What you gain is a stone that should still cut quickly, but will remain flat for longer. The trade off is that you may/will lose some of that ‘polishing’ action meaning a big jump just isn’t possible and you really do need to go ‘up the grits’ to get the job done.

In real terms, you can get away with a King (or Norton) #1000 and then a #6000/8000 so long as you take care to make sure your stones are flat so you don’t end up putting a convex surface on a chisel or plane blade’s back. To get the same thing out of newer style ceramic stones, you would need a #1000, a #3000/5000 and then a #8000/12000 in a Shapton professional type stone to end up with the same net result because the fine grit stones can’t get the coarser scratches out fast enough so you really do need that intermediate step. Yes, the fine stones will take away the coarse scratches, eventually, but that defeats the purpose since it will take considerable time and you also increase the risk of making the stone ‘unflat’

The only ceramic stones that I know (as in I really do know, not simply suspect) that will make a #1000-#8000 jump are Sigma Power. I suspect Naniwa Chosera stones will also make the leap, but I don’t know for certain.

The Sigma Power does it by using a very hard #1000 stone that cuts very rapidly. The #8000 uses a moderately hard binder so you get the tough, sharp ceramic style abrasive combined with a binder that will let spent grit go while retaining the still sharp abrasive. You don’t get the polishing effect though, the abrasive is too hard for that. However stropping the edge WILL give you a polish so you can do that final step ‘on the cheap’ if you find you need a better edge than the #8000 Sigma Power gives you. The #10000 Sigma Power is more a polishing stone, so the abrasive will actually break down a little rather than simply becoming blunt.

Taken to the other extreme are the Shapton Glass stones. They use a very durable abrasive combined with an extremely hard, durable binder. They do cut quickly, but you get next to zero polishing effect and fresh abrasive needs to be exposed by abrading the surface with a diamond plate or similar. However, for Glass Stones, you really REALLY do need to go up the grits to get a good edge. There are some Glass Stones (signified by an ‘S’ designation) that use a less resilient binder and an abrasive that will break down offering some effect of polishing. Generally though, Glass Stones are %$# hard which means they WILL stay flat no matter how hard you try to change that. Personally, I am not real keen on them, but plenty of folks really like them which goes to show there is a stone for anyone but no stone for everyone."

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Doug Hepler]

Ray

Sharpening discussions soon become an end in themselves. For many people, sharpening and arguing about sharpening methods, is lots more fun than woodworking.

If you want to get some work done, use lapping film available from Lee Valley and/or consider one or more DMT diamond plates. Lapping film is a "Scary Sharp" or "sandpaper sharpening" method, but done with aluminum oxide or diamond coated film (Mylar?) because it lasts longer. Also, buy or borrow Ron Hock's book on sharpening. You can get a kindle edition and finish reading it today.

Back to work

Doug

[Jeff Heath]

Ray

Sharpening discussions soon become an end in themselves. For many people, sharpening and arguing about sharpening methods, is lots more fun than woodworking.

If you want to get some work done, use lapping film available from Lee Valley and/or consider one or more DMT diamond plates. Lapping film is a "Scary Sharp" or "sandpaper sharpening" method, but done with aluminum oxide or diamond coated film (Mylar?) because it lasts longer. Also, buy or borrow Ron Hock's book on sharpening. You can get a kindle edition and finish reading it today.

Back to work

Doug

Very well done, Doug. I typically stay out of these discussions for all the reasons you just mentioned. There will be eventually over 40 replies to this thread, with at least 20 different recommendations on how to spend a lot of money on this stone, that stone, this thickness, that medium, etc.......

My comments do not take into consideration specialty steels or Japanese tools. I know nothing about them, and don't care to know. I've been doing this for 3 decades now......longer than most, and quite a bit less than a few. I can tell that one thing is for certain. Absolutely certain. If your chisels or plane blades are O1 or A2, they just do not care how you sharpen them. A sharp edge is nothing more than the intersection of two highly polished surfaces down to an ever decreasingly small intersection. PERIOD.

I use the 3M scary sharp method sold in 10 packs at Tools for Working Wood, and I'm sure you can get it at quite a few places, for $26. Placed on a solid substrate that is flat (I use the kitchen sink cutout of granite), you can get remarkably sharp edges in an extremely fast time, and very quickly get back to work.

Jeff Miller of chairbuilder and author fame showed me this 20 years ago, and I've been using it ever since. I've got a box full of old fancy expensive waterstones buried in the shop somewhere that are as dry as dirt and staying that way.

I work wood for a living. I sharpen every day. I haven't spent $300 on 3M paper yet in 20 years. I go through the 40 micron paper the most, which is the most agressive. It lasts a while, but when it dulls, I replace it. I probably use one sheet per year, cut into 4 2.75" slices (approx.). The other higher polishing grits (diminishing micron numbers) last a lot longer, because you only need to take 10 to 15 swipes on each one before moving on. 2 minutes or less to mirror polished, surgically sharpened tools.

The rest is all engineering types and their electron microscopes discussing metallurgy that has nothing to do with a tool sharp enough to plane 99% of the woods you are likely to be working.

I work mostly North American hardwoods, with several species that are very hard like locust, osage orange, persimmon, pecan, etc....that can be tough on steel. Not as hard or as gnarly (so I hear) as some of that granite they call wood in Australia, but I think you get the point.

Just another option offered from a guy who prefers to spend his money on needed tools and wood, not sharpening stones.

For the record: I have ZERO affiliation with any supplier or tool maker. I mention TFWW only because that's where I found it, and I always get good service when I order there, just like what I receive from Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

[Derek Cohen]

Doug and Jeff

Sharpening discussions are usually an exercise in futility because there are so many opinions offered, that there is simply an overload of information. Important stuff is in the eye of the beholder.

I do find it interesting, however, that those who comment negatively about a sharpening thread still cannot resist chipping in to mention their own sharpening system. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Schultz]

I don't know why people complain about sharpening threads. I love all the conflicting opinions! Makes for great reading. I guess maybe I'm just new to the game and I'll get tired of all this later. I doubt it though.

I'm a bit of a newb so take what I do with a few grains of salt.

I bought a 3000 grit Sigma stone from Lee Valley as my first stone. I couldn't afford any more stones and I was hoping I could get a long ways with just the 3000. Right now I have added a 8000 Bester/Imanishi and just recently a cheap low speed grinder with a Norton 3x wheel. When the stars align I can hollow grind with the grinder and hone straight with the 3000. It cuts pretty fast. I've debated getting a 1000 for initial honing, but lately I've been thinking I don't really need it. The only place where I am still wondering about things is the final polish on the back of a blade. I can still see small scratches. I don't know if they are just the result of the 8000 stone or I'm not getting rid of all the 3000 grit scratches. My edges do get plenty sharp though, so its just a matter of wondering if there is another level out there somewhere.

Not really giving advice or asking questions, I just wanted to give a shout out supporting the continued creation of huge sharpening threads.

[Stanley Covington]

There is so much nonsense going around about sharpening stones. Reminds me of teenagers and basketball shoes.

For everything but the finish stone, use the cheapest waterstones you can get your mitts on. Brand name doesn't matter diddly-squat. Around here, Imanishi or King are cheapest. Whatever. Really.

Avoid the really thick stones. I know they seem economical, but they are stacked and baked in an oven, and the heat does not penetrate the thick slabs consistently sometimes. The food-prep guys like the thick stones, but woodworking tools must be seriously sharp, not like kitchen knives.

An economical set would be:

1. 800 grit carborundum stone or diamond plate for wasting steel;
2. 1000 grit for shaping the bevel and removing chips and nicks (85% of sharpening sessions will start with this stone);
3. 6000 grit as general finishing stone (good enough for most chisels and planes in a working situation)
4. 10,000 grit for finishing your best plane blades and paring chisels.
5. Tsushima nagura for dressing finishing stones.

You might want to add a 2000 grit to speed things up a tad and spare the more expensive 6,000 some wear, but it isn't critical.

Most of your sharpening time (70%?) will be on the 1000 grit stones, followed by the 6,000 grit. At least that will be the case if you sharpen before your cutting edges are totally rounded over, and you keep your bevels flat. If you use multiple bevels or can't maintain a flat bevel, all bets are off.

Use the rougher stones (800, 1000, 2000) with the blade moving in contact in one direction only: Choose either push or pull, but not both. You must keep the blade from rocking. Actively rotate your wrists so the bevel will remain flat on the stone. Don't lockup! This takes focus and practice until muscle memory develops, but despite what the conflicted purveyors of jigs and gadgets might say, and the willfully handicapped shrilly insist, being able to sharpen freehand is an important lifetime skill for a woodworker, much like learning to pull up your zipper after Willy the One-eyed Wonder Worm is out of the way.

Use short strokes on the rough stones. 1.5"? Less rocking.

Use the entire face of each and every stone. This means you need to try to stay away from the middle. It means that sometimes one corner of the blade will need to hang off the stone's edge. I know most of you guys hate to think, but really try for a second. The more of your stones you actually use for sharpening, the less money and time will become wasted mud.

Keeping the stones flat is important, but can be a pain in the fundament unless you conscientiously manage the process. Get 2-each of the 800 and 1000 grit stones. Soak them both. Use one and then the other until the faces of BOTH stones of the same grit are beginning to wear (hollow-out). Check with a stainless steel ruler. Then cross-thatch the faces with a carpenters pencil, and rub the faces of the 2 stones (same grit) together, switching end for end and top for bottom frequently until both are flat again. This only takes a few seconds if you do it before the stones get ugly. Continue sharpening. This is very important. Pay attention, and compare results.

This is the quickest, most economical, and most professional way to buy and use waterstones. Don't be fooled by retailers and wholesalers trying to sell increasingly expensive fashion stones. Making synthetic stones ain't rocket surgery. It doesn't take a cleanroom or a scanning electron microscope. Michael Jordan doesn't promote stones... Not yet, anyway. Are you going to buy a Shapton jersey?

Stan

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Stan

Not disagreeing with you about a decent finishing medium, but this could be something like green compound as well, which is cheap.

The stone I consider the most important is the 1000, since this is where we usually start to rebuild an edge if it has gone too far to touch up. Keeping a 1000 flat is generally more difficult than keeping a 10000 flat, since the 1000 is generally a lot softer than a 10000. The King 1000 is the softest 1000 I have used. I'd rather use a harder 1000, such as the Shapton Pro ... which costs more.

So my reasoning takes me in the opposite direction to yours. Now I consider than you know a whole lot more about sharpening than I do, and I look to you for advice. Your advice is now creating a split in the universe and I am getting a tension headache. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Heath]

Derek,

My only negative comment, intended tongue in cheek, was this:

"The rest is all engineering types and their electron microscopes discussing metallurgy that has nothing to do with a tool sharp enough to plane 99% of the woods you are likely to be working."

I stand by it, because in my opinion, it's the absolute truth. As you stated, this is the rabbit hole that most of these threads go down. However, that doesn't help Ray, who obviously is working this all out for the first time, and is trying to get some reassurance on a sharpening setup that doesn't cost a lot of money and works well.

He doesn't live in Australia, but in Washington state, USA, so I can reasonably safely assume he is sharpening his tools to work on North American hardwoods.

I personally dislike waterstones in use in the shop because of the mess they make (water spills are messy) and the constant maintenance they require. I use a way to sharpen my tools, same as Doug, that is fast, much less hassle and cleanup than waterstones, and yields results every bit as effective as the thousand dollar shapton stones and the multi-hundred dollar waterstones that get professed in these threads. All for the tidy sum of a steak with fries at a decent steak joint.

It's not a negative comment to offer an alternative that works. I know it works because I have been doing this for a long time, and now do demonstrations at woodworking and machine gatherings (because I get asked to) using this method to simply prove that you don't need expensive stones to get your tools sharp. I don't get paid to do it, or get free tools sent to me. I do it because it gets more people interested in the craft, when they don't get scared away because of cost.

Some people want the most expensive tools, and the most expensive jigs and gadgets to sharpen them. That's totally fine. I don't have a problem with that at all. A lot of guys, though, stay away from hand tools in woodworking because they are intimidated by the cost of the expensive new tools, and don't know how to set up quality vintage tools that have, perhaps, been mishandled or abused. The scary sharp method gets an individual comfortable with a sharpening system that works just as well as any out there, for O1 and A2, and doesn't take a big investment to get set up.

You know I'm into the OWWM machines. That crowd is a bunch of machine woodworkers that, until I started doing demo's, a lot of them had no idea how wonderful it is to work with a properly sharpened smoothing plane, or a properly filed hand saw, or a properly sharpened chisel. They have a box full of their grandpa's tools that were never sharpened correctly, and now they can get them in great shape for under $30.

I just want to make sure that anybody reading this knows you don't have to spend $300 to sharpen grandpa's Stanley 60's and his #5 and #7 that have been sitting on a shelf in the garage for 40 years.

What's negative about that comment?

My 10 buck-apiece, 70 year old Greenlee chisels are every bit as sharp as any $100 plus chisel you can sharpen on those expensive stones, and I'll take the pepsi challenge on that any day of the week. I just want Ray, and all the other newer folks, to know that.

My finish is dry, so I've got to get back to work.

[Dave Zellers]

You beat me to it Adam. I also like sharpening threads because I always learn something. I'm able to wade through the different opinions of the experts and add to my understanding of the finer points of how all this works. Derek your post above where you quote from Stu (Tools from Japan) really helped me understand some of the nuances of water stones. I like water stones and don't mind the messiness as I sharpen right next to a utility sink in my shop. I've been sharpening my chisels and few planes for decades with reasonable success but after coming here the results have dramatically improved. I don't want to simply be told what to do and how to do it, I need to know WHY I'm doing it that way. I need to know why different stones behave differently. That's what I've been learning since I joined SMC. I very much appreciate everyone's input as I understand it is often repetitive for them.

The key to sharpening threads is allowing enough time to pass between them so the knowledgable folks rekindle their interest. :)

[Stanley Covington]

Hi Stan

Not disagreeing with you about a decent finishing medium, but this could be something like green compound as well, which is cheap.

The stone I consider the most important is the 1000, since this is where we usually start to rebuild an edge if it has gone too far to touch up. Keeping a 1000 flat is generally more difficult than keeping a 10000 flat, since the 1000 is generally a lot softer than a 10000. The King 1000 is the softest 1000 I have used. I'd rather use a harder 1000, such as the Shapton Pro ... which costs more.

So my reasoning takes me in the opposite direction to yours. Now I consider than you know a whole lot more about sharpening than I do, and I look to you for advice. Your advice is now creating a split in the universe and I am getting a tension headache. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek:

I think we agree for the most part. 1000 grit is indeed the most important. Hard/soft is personal preference, as is the choice of finishing stone, as is the entire process, for that matter.

I agree that the King 1000 is too soft, and too narrow. I use Imanshi. Good hardness, and good value, at least over here. From what I hear about prices for everything Down Under, they may cost as much as opals for you!

I just hate to see people burn money needlessly. :( The prices the OP mentioned were daylight robbery.

Regards from Tokyo

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

Taken to the other extreme are the Shapton Glass stones. They use a very durable abrasive combined with an extremely hard, durable binder. They do cut quickly, but you get next to zero polishing effect and fresh abrasive needs to be exposed by abrading the surface with a diamond plate or similar. However, for Glass Stones, you really REALLY do need to go up the grits to get a good edge. There are some Glass Stones (signified by an ‘S’ designation) that use a less resilient binder and an abrasive that will break down offering some effect of polishing. Generally though, Glass Stones are %$# hard which means they WILL stay flat no matter how hard you try to change that. Personally, I am not real keen on them, but plenty of folks really like them which goes to show there is a stone for anyone but no stone for everyone."

Hmm, the only Glass stone I own is the double-thickness 500 (an expensive mistake on my part) and it's softer than Stu describes. I bet they get harder as you move up the line, though.

[David Bassett]

Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.

[Stanley Covington]

Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.

Before you get carried away with sweeping generalizations on someone else's behalf, such as that none of the OP's questions have been addressed, you might want to read some of the postings. And just in case you hadn't noticed, 95% of everything posted on forums is opinion and personal preference... the rest is sweeping generalizations by those not paying attention.

[Patrick Chase]

My 10 buck-apiece, 70 year old Greenlee chisels are every bit as sharp as any $100 plus chisel you can sharpen on those expensive stones, and I'll take the pepsi challenge on that any day of the week. I just want Ray, and all the other newer folks, to know that.


Your Greenlees probably take a finer initial edge than a lot of the newer, more expensive chisels that we discuss in these threads. HCS is awfully hard to beat in that respect, particularly if you use traditional sharpening media. PM allows some of the less aggressive high-alloy-content steels to get into the same ballpark (PM-V11/CTS-XHP is a good example), but plain old HCS is still the gold standard IMO.

[Jeff Heath]

Patrick

I've never had the pleasure of trying a PM-V11 chisel or plane iron. From all you guys say, it's quite impressive. One of these days, someone will bring it (hopefully) to a tool meet I'm at so I can give it a whirl.

The HCS in the vintage tools is great. I have heard edges last longer in the PMV stuff. I honestly doubt it would matter to a guy like me. My sharpening station, which is a granite plate on a stand I built, is 4 steps from my bench. It takes me less than 2 minutes to re-establish a sharp edge before getting back to work. I really don't even notice it. Of course, I readily admit that you don't know what you're missing until you've tried it to begin with, so..

I wish Lee Valley would make tapered double irons for wood planes out of it. I could be a potentially good customer, and I'm sure others would buy them, too. I bought a couple of their 6" tapered irons. They are just too short. My K&T mill and carbide tooling handles milling the slot with ease for a chipbreaker, but 6" is not a good size.

I finished a table for a customer this morning, and now I'm needle scaling paint and rust off of a 1936 Yates American Y30 bandsaw I'm restoring for my shop, so break time is over....

Cheers.

[Patrick Chase]

Sharpening discussions soon become an end in themselves. For many people, sharpening and arguing about sharpening methods, is lots more fun than woodworking.

If you want to get some work done, use lapping film available from Lee Valley and/or consider one or more DMT diamond plates. Lapping film is a "Scary Sharp" or "sandpaper sharpening" method, but done with aluminum oxide or diamond coated film (Mylar?) because it lasts longer. Also, buy or borrow Ron Hock's book on sharpening. You can get a kindle edition and finish reading it today.

Also Leonard Lee's book. IMO both he and Hock offer unique and worthwhile takes.

w.r.t. lapping films, I have a couple thoughts:


They're vulnerable to contamination and somewhat fragile. I don't know how many times I've had a random piece of abrasive from goodness-knows-what get embedded in the Mylar base. Likewise it's fairly easy to gouge the film if you're not paying attention and take a badly burred tool to them, though the latter can be overcome with practice and awareness.
The diamond films are incredible. They offer the speed of diamond with extremely uniform particle size/height and scratch pattern. They leave a finer and more uniform scratch pattern than do plates at any given grit/speed. As a bonus you get to replace the cutting points about 10X more often than with plates (assuming constant consumable cost per sharpening), which means that you're always working with a "fresh plate".
The AlOx films are very nice and convenient to use, but they really don't do anything that a well-maintained, high-quality Alumina waterstone won't. It's the same abrasive after all, and waterstones don't have "rogue particle" problems the way the metal plates can.

Taking all of the above into consideration, my own solution is to use diamond films (and compounds, which are better still but have the added downside of loose grit contamination) in my home office for "heavy work", but stick to waterstones out in the shop where contamination and fragility are issues.

You're absolutely right that the films (and the diamond ones in particular) are the lowest cost-of-entry option for "serious sharpening". I don't know of any other option that allows you to spend $25 and be able to work all the way from 15 um (1000# equivalent) to a 0.1 micron finish, even on exotic steels that are basically immune to every waterstone on the market (including Shapton Glass).

Once you figure out how to avoid nicking and contamination the ongoing cost of the diamond films actually isn't that bad (lower than sandpaper in my experience). After all they don't really get dull. The only reason I don't use them out in my shop is because waterstones are cheaper still on an ongoing basis, and because I just don't want to deal with the hassle of keeping my films clean and nick-free in such a messy environment. If I had Brian's "shop hygiene" practices then that would be different, of course :-).

[Jeff Heath]

Shop hygiene is definitely an issue, especially in a shop like mine that has woodworking and metalworking machines combined ( a poor mix, and being remedied soon with an additional space on property). However, it is easily remedied with a simple plywood cover over the top of the granite sub plate, with sides, to keep the contaminants out.

[Chris Parks]

I don't know why people complain about sharpening threads. I love all the conflicting opinions! Makes for great reading. I guess maybe I'm just new to the game and I'll get tired of all this later. I doubt it though.

If people were honest about it the reason these conversations often become heated is that everyone is talking to deaf people because those with many years of experience have arrived at a method that works for them and none of them want to change. There are comments above that I don't agree with but me putting in my 2c worth will never change the view of those who wrote them. Been there and done that and it is simply a waste of time. I am just as guilty, I have a method, it works for me and so be it.

On the other had if these threads did not exist a lot of experience would not come out to help those just getting started.

[Jim Koepke]

Folks, until the OP checks back in and tells us what he's sharpening, the trade offs and recommendations are all speculation and personal preference. (Lots of good information about options, but none of it is specific to the original question except by chance.)

I'm guessing this wasn't that pressing an issue or he would have been back to participate in the last two days.

Hi David,

The OP, Ray is asking for recommendations about water stones. He has received a clear recommendation of the guy trying to sell him a $1200 set of stones is way out of line.

There are also some in depth posts as to why folks like some stones and compare them to other stones in their shops. My Norton water stones are not really anything special, but they get my tools sharp. The 8000 does a decent job of polishing. There has been some explanation as to why some other stones of the same grit may not make a mirror polish.

The abundance of differing information without animosity erupting is welcome in my book. Some people understand their opinions may be different without there being a conflict.

A few recommendations for the set Stu at ToolsFromJapan.com sells:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=335_404_403&products_id=1667&zenid=b95e734b5ecc139f27d977b00e1fda0c

That would be my choice if stones were being bought for my shop today. They seem to align with the original caveats stated by Ray.

Another point to consider is how many people may have a similar question as Ray's and can find an answer in this thread.

As far as not getting back to the conference, it is a 3-day weekend. Many people in these parts may also take a Friday and make it a 4-day ski weekend. Ray could be off the grid in a cabin with family or doing a long haul in an 18 wheeler for all we know. Then again, he may just be absorbing what has been written so far trying to make his choice.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Well said, Chris.

I think that the state of play for many is that they are successful in achieving a sharp edge. That is a tangible result they can stand behind, and make declaritive statements about their system because the proof lies in front of them. This can be the result of experimentation, which leads one to want to now ignore the rejected systems. Hence the ongoing debates - there are many possible systems. Not everyone can be "right".

For some, sharpening success is enough. For others - and I include myself here - I have reached a great system that works for me because it is quick. I get very little pleasure from sharpening and would rather discuss design or technique on a forum, but I am curious if there is something quicker still, so that sharpening can be done and dusted, and I can get back to working wood faster. Like a moth, I get sucked into these threads :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Parks]

Perhaps $1200 is good value, we don't know what was being bought for that figure because no one asked. I bet there are contributers in this thread who have spent many thousands of dollars, way more than 1200 to get the the method they use now. If the OP was willing to spend that much he may get to the final answer cheaper than any here giving advice. I wish it had cost me only 1200 to get where I am happy with the results I get. Looking at it that way all of a sudden 1200 might not be such a bad deal.

[Jim Koepke]

{edited}
those with many years of experience have arrived at a method that works for them and none of them want to change. There are comments above that I don't agree with but me putting in my 2c worth will never change the view of those who wrote them. Been there and done that and it is simply a waste of time. I am just as guilty, I have a method, it works for me and so be it.

Those with years of experience often pay attention to what others offer in hopes of gleaning small bits of information to help in their own methods. Sometimes even the unknowing can present wisdom.

Hopefully everyone can find a system that works for their needs. Meeting one's own needs is all that really matters.

My success with oilstones didn't come about until after learning to sharpen with water stones.


Perhaps $1200 is good value, we don't know what was being bought for that figure because no one asked. I bet there are contributers in this thread who have spent many thousands of dollars, way more than 1200 to get the the method they use now. If the OP was willing to spend that much he may get to the final answer cheaper than any here giving advice. I wish it had cost me only 1200 to get where I am happy with the results I get. Looking at it that way all of a sudden 1200 might not be such a bad deal.

A quick search turned up a 3 stone set of Shapton Glass stones and a flattening plate at about $700. Not sure what could pad that out another $500.

Many have mentioned the Shapton Glass stones are not economically a great investment for sharpening.

My most expensive part of my sharpening set up was the powered system. Add that with all of the stones purchased it likely still short of the $1000 mark. Some of my stones were purchased second hand. Some of them were purchased new 50 years ago. Some were purchased new in the last two decades. Getting a good set of stones to start out isn't a $1200 proposition. Even with all my slip stones it isn't getting there.

In an earlier post Jeff Heath mentions Scary Sharp and not even getting close to spending $300 over some years.

With some careful shopping one could buy oilstones, water stones, a few diamond stones and abrasive sheets and try four of the main sharpening systems and still have money left from the $1200 price tag mentioned in the original post.

jtk

[Chris Parks]

I reckon most people would exceed $1200 learning sharpening, I have and anyone who has a Tormek would have. Now all those who haven't will tell me I am wrong of course and few who have will admit it.

[ken hatch]

Those with years of experience often pay attention to what others offer in hopes of gleaning small bits of information to help in their own methods. Sometimes even the unknowing can present wisdom.

Hopefully everyone can find a system that works for their needs. Meeting one's own needs is all that really matters.

My success with oilstones didn't come about until after learning to sharpen with water stones.



A quick search turned up a 3 stone set of Shapton Glass stones and a flattening plate at about $700. Not sure what could pad that out another $500.

Many have mentioned the Shapton Glass stones are not economically a great investment for sharpening.

My most expensive part of my sharpening set up was the powered system. Add that with all of the stones purchased it likely still short of the $1000 mark. Some of my stones were purchased second hand. Some of them were purchased new 50 years ago. Some were purchased new in the last two decades. Getting a good set of stones to start out isn't a $1200 proposition. Even with all my slip stones it isn't getting there.

In an earlier post Jeff Heath mentions Scary Sharp and not even getting close to spending $300 over some years.

With some careful shopping one could buy oilstones, water stones, a few diamond stones and abrasive sheets and try four of the main sharpening systems and still have money left from the $1200 price tag mentioned in the original post.

jtk

Jim,

Full disclosure, I own and use Shapton's and Shapton accessories. While all are expensive, the accessories work well with the stones. On to the highlighted quote. I expect the salesman went for the whole Shapton kit, Stone Pond and holders along with the stones and lapping plate. The Stone Pond is priced at $230 USD add in a couple or three Shapton Stone Holders at $120 USD a copy and you are at the $1200 USD mark. Is the kit worth it, kinda depends on how much you like your money.

Over the years I've tried many sharpening stones, natural and man made, of the man made stones, Shapton's and its accessories work for me. Are there "better" stones? It kinda depends on what blows your skirt. BTW, for those appalled or questioning the cost/benefit ratio of Shampton's going down the JNAT road will blow your mind.

Like many others I'm drawn to sharpening post like moths to flame, great fun to read but classic everyone talking and nobody listening.

ken

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I reckon most people would exceed $1200 learning sharpening, I have and anyone who has a Tormek would have. Now all those who haven't will tell me I am wrong of course and few who have will admit it.

You can spend as much or as little as you want doing this. I started with sandpaper. When I ran out of sandpaper, I decided I did not want to be constantly running out for sandpaper. I bought a 1000/8000 norton combination stone. Amazon has them for less than $100. I used that for a long time, but now use oilstones (an India and a black Arkansas). They also cost less than $100. I just got tired of the water and the mess.

[William Fretwell]

The need to hollow grind plane blades would be my main sharpening gripe. It just takes too long otherwise with the thick wide blades, modern steel or not. Old plane blades are easy.
Once hollow ground a 1000x water stone, then 6000x water stone & a strop with honing compound produce a polished sharp edge.
I don't believe more is needed as after a few strokes of the plane any 'super' edge is simply lost.
You can restore 'most' of the edge with just the strop as you work before you have to go back to the stones. This does demonstrate that the sweet cutting zone is way up there somewhere. The strop restored edge is shorter lived than the original edge suggesting it did not restore all the edge but it gives you a sense of your sharpening technique.

[Jeff Heath]

Jim,


Like many others I'm drawn to sharpening post like moths to flame, great fun to read but classic everyone talking and nobody listening.

ken

Ha ha ha!!!

Ken, thanks for the good morning laugh. Guilty as charged. Coffee all over the monitor and keyboard right now.

[Ray Newman]

Colleagues: thanks for the responses. Great deal of information and opinions to digest. Between income tax prep and dealing with the VA Prosthetics Services, time went by and I have neglected a few things.

Some asked about my sharpening needs: set of routinely used and probably 30 year old Bracht (German) chisels plus a few planes – block, small Lee Valley bevel up smoother as well as a Lie-Nielsen #1, #2, and #9 for a shooting board. Also, a few "less utilized": Stanley #45 router and one or two shoulder planes. Have some Japanese chisels from a going-out-of-business- sale when in worked in California. Should sell them off as I really do not use them.

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium. Back in the 1990’s I had five or four King (??) water stones, but wanted something easier and with less mess. Hence the Tormek with honing wheel. Bought the Tormek, a slightly used first generation machine from another woodworker who just-had-to-have the second generation “new and improved” model. A roll about box stores the Tormek. But always need to move something to get to it, then fetch the water and wait to soak the stone.

I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.

Some asked about the Shapton “system” quote. Clerk made it sound like I would need numerous grits to really sharpen, a special flattening stone, stone holder(s), some kind of pond, etc.

Recently, a friend advised E-Zee lap course, fine, and extra fine diamond plates and maybe a leather hone. I have no experience with diamond sharpening. While he claims his tools are sharp, I have no idea as to what he calls ”sharp”.

Once again, thanks for all information. Cheers and all the best.

[Jim Koepke]

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium.

No sink in my shop either, a plastic storage container from Target works fine for soaking and a gallon milk jug and a spray bottle handle the rest.


I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.

The Sigma Power Stones, sold by Stu at Tools From Japan, look like they come close to fitting that requirement:

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335_404_403&zenid=31a22d3b6f8ca2eca498a46a890d81ef

If you do not have A2 steel in any of your blades and you want a little less set up, you may think of trying oilstones.


Recently, a friend advised E-Zee lap course, fine, and extra fine diamond plates and maybe a leather hone. I have no experience with diamond sharpening. While he claims his tools are sharp, I have no idea as to what he calls ”sharp”.

Maybe your friend will let you try a few blades sharpened on his system to see if it meets your needs. My kitchen knives are maintained on diamond hones in the kitchen, but when they need a thorough sharpening they are taken to the shop and worked on either oil or water stones depending on the outside temps.

One of the problems with discussing sharpness is it is difficult to quantify without some sort of testing. The problem with testing is it is hard to find a test on which everyone will agree.

My first test is visual. If any reflection of light can be seen at the arris it is a sign of more honing being needed.

A second test is how it feels on my finger tip or fingernail. If you have not checked knife edges with your fingers for most of your life, my suggestion is do not start now. It is likely just one of my bad habits. Testing it against a fingernail is a little less dangerous. Mostly it is checked to see if lightly touched to a fingernail to see if it catches (or sticks) and at what angle. This is another test that requires experience over time to derive any quantitative information. A friend of mine uses the tip of a fingernail dragged across a blade to find 'invisible' nicks.

Another test is the push through a sheet of writing paper. Pushed straight into the edge of a sheet of paper a sharp blade should have no trouble penetrating. The softer the paper the sharper the blade needs to be.

Many folks like to test a blade by paring the end grain of a soft wood like pine or other firs. A sharp blade can make a very light shaving without causing opening between the wood fibers.

Another test some folks do not like is shaving hair from one's arm. If one doesn't know how to control a blade for removing hair this can be dangerous. This test offers a lot of information as to the condition of an edge. If the blade is removing hair but pulling there are a few nicks or blunt spots. Smooth and removing only a little hair means the blade is likely sharp enough for most woodwork. A little sharper will remove a bit more hair. If it feels like it isn't removing any hair but leaving a clean shaven spot, then the blade is sharp and ready to go for woodworking. After this it gets in to a few more levels of extreme sharpness determined by what it does to a hanging hair. That is a test for people who use straight razors.

There is also a test set up available to determine how much force is required for a blade to sever a specific size of fiber. That may be fun for some, but not needed for woodworking.

For many woodworkers an understanding of sharpness evolves over time. What seemed sharp to me ten years ago is nothing like what seems sharp to me now.

jtk

[Warren West]

"I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block. "

Not false, this would work fine. So would 2 or 3 diamond plates, or 2 or 3 oil stones. All would work. It's really down to personal preference and what you like the most, or bugs you the least.

Given your situation, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Fine and follow that with a Spyderco Medium. That leaves you with a slightly finer edge than you get off the Tormek before stropping. Quick to use, low mess and never need flattening. For a two stone solution, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Superfine.

If you are refreshing edges and not doing much repair, then simply add in a Superfine Diamond and use that when you need a refresh that the strop alone can't handle, and you'd only need to fire up the Tormek to do major repairs.

Oilstones need flattening every few years and Waterstones, every few seconds. (I sharpen small carving tools that would wear holes in waterstones and I don't use jigs of any kind aside from the sv-32 when I bevel set on the Tormek.) I rarely use the Tormek though.

[Derek Cohen]

I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Fine and follow that with a Spyderco Medium. That leaves you with a slightly finer edge than you get off the Tormek before stropping. Quick to use, low mess and never need flattening. For a two stone solution, I'd go Eze-Lap Coarse and Superfine.

Warren, the Tormek wheel either gives you 220 grit (unrefined) or 1000 grit (refined using the surfacing stone). The Medium Spyderco is unrated by the factory, but I use one, and it is equivalent to about 4000/5000 grit. The Ultra Fine, which I also use, leaves a polished finish something like an 8000 grit. I will refine the edge further with green chrome compound.

The simple fix for the Tormek is actually to swap out the wheel for a CBN version. I dislike this idea because I use the Tormek as a grinder, not part of a sharpening system, and therefore prefer a coarser wheel. But some love this system, and for them one can get any grit wheel you like. I'd get a 220 grit, and then dry grind. The advantage here is that there is no soaking, no water needed. The wheel does not wear, and therefore setting do not need to be altered.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

Stan,
In the above you state "Use short strokes on the rough stones. 1.5"? Less rocking" Which makes perfect sense. But, does that imply that you use a different length stroke on finer grit stones? Since less rocking is what one would want to achieve why wouldn't you keep using the 1.5 inch stroke? Unless it's to distribute the wear on the stone?
Chet

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Some asked about my sharpening needs: set of routinely used and probably 30 year old Bracht (German) chisels plus a few planes – block, small Lee Valley bevel up smoother as well as a Lie-Nielsen #1, #2, and #9 for a shooting board. Also, a few "less utilized": Stanley #45 router and one or two shoulder planes. Have some Japanese chisels from a going-out-of-business- sale when in worked in California. Should sell them off as I really do not use them.

Shop does not have a sink, space is at a premium. Back in the 1990’s I had five or four King (??) water stones, but wanted something easier and with less mess. Hence the Tormek with honing wheel. Bought the Tormek, a slightly used first generation machine from another woodworker who just-had-to-have the second generation “new and improved” model. A roll about box stores the Tormek. But always need to move something to get to it, then fetch the water and wait to soak the stone.

I was under the assumption, a false assumption maybe, that I could get by with say a non-soaking three water stone set and leather honing strap on a wood block.



If space is at a premium, with no sink, I would be thinking about something other than water stones. I have made the decision to stick to vintage steel and O1, so an India stone and an Arkansas are working quite nicely for me. I used Waterstones in our old place, but the new space is different, and I never quite settled on a place to sharpen that seemed to work. With oilstones there is no soaking, no water splashing on the bench, and much less flattening. Just a couple of drops of mineral oil and I am off and running. Quick wipe with a cloth when I am done and they go right back on the shelf.

From the LN and LV tools you have, it sounds like you may have some modern steels that would not work that well with oilstones. I have an A2 shoulder plane blade that seems to sharpen just fine on my oilstones, but most folks seem to think A2 and oilstones don't work well together.

George Wilson posted a number of times about his sharpening system, which is a diamond stone, and then a Spyderco medium and fine stone (I think). He just uses a little soapy water in a spray bottle to wet them. I don't own any, and there are apparently some issues with getting them flat (they sometimes don't come flat, and are very hard to flatten since the ceramic is so hard). May be an option for you, but I would read up on the pros and cons before taking the plunge.

[Stanley Covington]

Stan,
In the above you state "Use short strokes on the rough stones. 1.5"? Less rocking" Which makes perfect sense. But, does that imply that you use a different length stroke on finer grit stones? Since less rocking is what one would want to achieve why wouldn't you keep using the 1.5 inch stroke? Unless it's to distribute the wear on the stone?
Chet

Chet:

Astute observation.

The purpose of the short strokes is indeed to reduce rocking to avoid creating a horribly rounded bevel, and to use the entire stone's surface.

It is an obvious truth that human hands cannot make a plane or chisel's blade's bevel perfectly flat, but if care is not taken on the rougher stones, the ones that excel at quickly wasting steel, the bevel will become very rounded, with the unavoidable consequence that you are destined to spend a lot of your time, effort, and sharpening stones making what should be a flat, polished surface into a round polished one instead, and that the time and effort and money that should have been expended sharpening the extreme cutting edge will have been wasted. Capiche? The bevel doesn't cut diddly, only the last few microns of the blade's edge, so don't let the bevel get in the way. Takes concentration, patience, and practice. Are you up to the job? Don't forget patience until you develop the muscle memory.

Once the bevel is flat (as far as possible using human hands) and the extreme cutting edge has been made ship shape and Bristol fashion by the rougher stones, you move the blade on to your finishing stone for polishing (vs wasting steel). This process can be accelerated by working the blade in longer strokes and polishing on both push and pull directions. The last few microns at the extreme cutting edge will become ever so slightly rounded if viewed microscopically, but that microscopic rounding will have been produced over a very narrow width because finishing stones don't have the ability to waste much metal. And most importantly, the metal at the extreme cutting edge will have been touched/polished only by your finishing stone. This takes the maximum advantage of your time, effort and expensive sharpening stones.

When I was taught this concept by an old man who had spent his entire adult life bent over sharpening stones, making exquisite cutting edges, I was a young man full of opinions and confidence, and it seemed passing strange. But I could not deny the results he produced using these techniques, not when I saw them with my own eyes and used the blades sharpened this way. And the speed was amazing.

I have explained these principles to a lot of people, but its almost always a waste of time. Damn, that sounds pompous! :rolleyes: Give it a try anyway.

Stan

[Jeff Heath]

Chet:


I have explained these principles to a lot of people, but its almost always a waste of time. Damn, that sounds pompous! :rolleyes: Give it a try anyway.

Stan

Stan,

I know how you feel. The term "until I'm blue in the face" comes to mind.:)

[Chet R Parks]

Stan,
Thank you for the detailed explanation. After I read your initial statement and before I asked the question I tried taking the short fast strokes and indeed I did feel more confident in not "rocking" the blade but as you explained the time/energy comes into play on the finer stones when less material is being removed. So now I'm thinking when I start honing with the final stone I will start out with the short strokes (just for a few seconds) to set in motion the muscle memory required to maintain the correct angle. This isn't just about the mundane back and forth movement of the blade on the stone. Your description clearly describes that there is or should be a concentrated mental effort between mind and body taking place of what is happening when one creates an fine edge and how and why to do it.... I get it :) Thanks Stan.
Chet