Going from NO DC to Oneida SDG . ductwork plan check.

[joel cervera]

showthread.php (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?253504-New-to-me-MiniMax-FS-350-Jointer-Thicknesser)

Hey all.

I posted last March about a Minimax j/p machine I found on Craigslist. I love this machine! and I can't overstate how convenient it is to have a 14 jointer in the shop. Overall its just made the process of milling wood in my shop much more enjoyable. Some on that thread mentioned the need for adequate dust collection and I took their recommendations to heart. But, was still unable to begin to remedy the situation until this week. For the record it was said in the above thread that my jointer/planer would instantly clog w/o DC. But I must say ,with a bit of attention in clearing chips ( not ejected out the dust ports)from the machine with a shop vac its possible to use the machine without dust collection. Just know its definitely NOT IDEAL. One needs to constantly stop to vacuum built up material. And even though I would do this at the opening of the double wide garage door, the amount of dust produced by this machine is impressive. Its fair to say the shop gets annihilated with dust after a milling session ins complete.
but I built this using the machine w/o DC.
https://i.imgur.com/OMdrR8Lm.jpg

suffice it to say I have been hunting for a good DC for a while. And constantly flip-flopping on wether to get a portable machine to move from machine to machine or go full mother and buy a cyclone. In the end I found a used 3hp Super Dust Gorilla from Oneida. A 2011. little used cuz the p/o had an injury and stopped working in the shop for years. the motor fan cover had a ding on it but other than that and a few chips/scrapes on the paint its in excellent shape. She was $1350 including the dust bin sensor, manual etc... ( the new 3 hp smart boost dust gorilla pro runs around 3k but I don't recall how much these pre smart boost models cost when they were new so hard for me to know how I did on the price.

So now that its in the garage.. Its huge! But I'm calculating it'll pull around 1000 cfm at the longest section of duct based the s.p. from the Pentz calculator. If I understood it correctly. and If i get around to building a separate dedicated shop It will function well there also. So It and the j/p should be upgrade proof?


https://i.imgur.com/8Q0NSFIl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Bo61rdvl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/vSXcGX6l.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4JXCHyql.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/roRLAxFl.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/UrEfdMwl.jpg

As you can see ..

2 car garage. 9 ft ceilings. Machines on wheels because I find that enough of the projects I do require long parts 8 ft or over. This requires special setups at times so reconfiguring the shop happens a fair amount of time during those projects. Additionally you will see in one photo that A drop down ladder is shown which leads to my wife's office locate above the shop. And yes I'm sure she will love the added noise from the new DC:) that ladder is down probably half the time.. and eats up lots of space. so reconfiguring sometimes is an essential requirement of my shop' function.

The ducting plan and shop pics show the standard layout for my shop during normal furniture sized projects. Drops will be 6" flex from very near the main runs to allow for reconfiguring when necessary. I don't want fixed duct down low (even tho air flow would be improved.)


https://i.imgur.com/WO5xwj9m.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/HunhxlZl.jpg

Since the inlet to the SDG is 8" I am planning an 8" 45 at the inlet to straight duct directed up to near ceiling then 45 leading out from there

I haven't decided how far to continue the 8" main . whether to do 8" all the way out to the 6" drops or to reduce down to 7" at the branch points. And I'm planning on metal duct. I have a local hvac supplier with prices on straight spiral and snap-lock running about the same per foot. Fittings would be standard fitting ( I can use standard fittings with spiral right?) from same supplier unless he can't get specific ones in which case i'll hit some of the online offerings for specific fittings.

So . anyone care to comment on any blatant or not so blatant pitfalls in my plan?

Thankful for any constructive input!

Thanks.

[andy bessette]

You want to eliminate many of the changes of direction shown. Make one large, straight, trunk line from the DC to the far end of the shop. Branch off that to the machines.

[Matthew Hills]

Nice shop and nice work! Seems like you've been doing well by your local used market!

Have you considered a dust collector closet to reduce the noise? This might be worth considering if your wife uses her office while you are in the shop.

Matt

[Jim Becker]

You want to eliminate many of the changes of direction shown. Make one large, straight, trunk line from the DC to the far end of the shop. Branch off that to the machines.

I agree with this. One diagonal main trunk with branches off that to tools. Buy "really good" flex with the smoothest interior you can source since your actual drops will be longer than they would be if you piped to the tool with short flex for connection. If you can raise the whole cyclone up you'll not only have benefits for the transition to your duct work, but also the ability to use a larger bin...your J/P can fill that little bin in about 5-10 minutes. Really. it can. ;)

Same comment for the closet that Mathew brings up if you can do it...it made a significant difference in my own shop when I did that a number of years ago.

BTW, while you may have been able to "get away" with not having dust collection on the J/P, quality will have suffered when chips get between the rollers and the material and so forth. You'll be very impressed with how it performs with DC which the manufacturer requires in the specifications...it's the nature of the hoods, etc., that make it somewhat "mandatory". So good decision on getting that cyclone!

[Patrick Cosentino]

Switch the bandsaw with the drill press (or red tool chest / cabinet ) and you remove the left most ducting completely.

But with that size DC and all the runs being relatively short , I supposed it won't hurt to have an extra brach for expansion / reconfiguration..

Nice set up!

[Jim Becker]

I agree that an 3hp Oneida unit like that isn't going to suffer much from extra duct work...it's more of a "keep it simple" thing so that the installation is sane and cost effective. Having one central trunk down the center of my shop has been very helpful over time when I had to make any changes, etc.

[joel cervera]

This look a bit better? Trying to get it all to one diagonal main is fine except for the Router table/ drill press area near the cyclone itself. It forces the inlet to point directly out from the inlet before splitting off at a 45 to make it down the diagonal run across the shop. Additionally there is small area to the right of the DC ( the small corner area the shop) that I need to access and it forces me to be unable to place the DC in the corner itself.

https://i.imgur.com/3vmDs5Yl.jpg

[Peter Christensen]

I would put the plywood rack in the corner to the right of where the DC is sitting in the picture and shuffle the shelves down if needed. Move the DC to where the plywood is now and have the duct
run straight out to the opposite corner.

[Larry Frank]

I have a 5 hp SDG and used 6' DWV pipe. I have plenty of suction on my runs. I think what you have planned will work fine.

[andy bessette]

Get rid of the first bend in the main trunk by rotating the DC clockwise until its outlet aims inline with the trunk. And don't worry about everything being 90* or 45* to the shop walls.

[joel cervera]

I would put the plywood rack in the corner to the right of where the DC is sitting in the picture and shuffle the shelves down if needed. Move the DC to where the plywood is now and have the duct
run straight out to the opposite corner.

Thanks for the suggestions.. but I just noticed a mistake on the overhead plan. The router table shown is actually a wall that is bumped out. it leaves a small area in the corner that is an awkward storage for now. it would not allow the ply storage to go there without blocking the storage area. Here is the actual layout with router table in correct locations( in front of bumped out wall). Additionally the diagonal run in the direction you suggest would bring the run into the drop down ladder for wife's attic. Also not ideal, from my point of view.

[joel cervera]

Get rid of the first bend in the main trunk by rotating the DC clockwise until its outlet aims inline with the trunk. And don't worry about everything being 90* or 45* to the shop walls.

Ya I though of that but feel the 45 out to the router table/drill press area from the small straight section is better than a 90 out from a diagonal run from the inlet (as you suggest). And to be clear, I'm not at all concerned about angles compared to the walls. I don't see walls as having anything to do with the ducts in my case. Whereas If I was trying for a perimeter route around the walls of the shop they might. . But 45 and 90 degree fittings tend to be pretty standard as well sketch up makes is easy to from those angles in so thats why they are in the plan.. Ultimately i'm trying to minimize any 90's where i can relative to the main duct run. preferring 45 s where acceptable.

[Jim Becker]

Why can't you slot the cyclone into the "awkward corner storage area"...instead of using it for "awkward corner storage". :) It would even allow you to more easily enclose the unit for sound mitigation.

[joel cervera]

Why can't you slot the cyclone into the "awkward corner storage area"...instead of using it for "awkward corner storage". :) It would even allow you to more easily enclose the unit for sound mitigation.


Good Point ;) Getting out my tape measure...

[andy bessette]

...the 45 out to the router table/drill press area from the small straight section is better than a 90 out from a diagonal run from the inlet (as you suggest)...

I suggest no such thing. There should be no 90* bends or transitions anywhere.

[joel cervera]

Been looking at the calculator on Bill Pentz's site. I have a question I haven't quite seen answered on my forum search. Most threads deal with having sufficient CFM But FPM seems to get brought up less. I have now been planning an 8" main ( same size as inlet on cyclone) with 6" drops. With regard to sufficient FPM ( to keep dust from collecting in ducting) Bill shoots for 4000FPM w/ 1000 cfm required at furthest tool port.
He shows a table with calculated FPM. It shows that 6" Ducting keeps the FPM above the 4k FPM target. 7" is just under target. And 8 shows low. This seems to indicate to that an 8 ducting may not be ideal? 7 or six are better in this respect. My s.p at the furthest tool shows about 6 based on what I've calculated. So sufficient cfm with my system looks good.
But with respect to FPM should I neck down the 8" inlet on my cyclone to a 7 or 6 inch main? Or will the 6 inch drops keep FPM in the mains from dropping too low. Trying to understand this and any help is appreciated.

Thanks and below is the chart from Bills calc.


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[Jim Becker]

Oneida designs the inlet size that is appropriate for a given cyclone model. The only benefit, IMHO, to reducing at that point is, perhaps a small cost benefit for duct work materials. My Oneida cyclone has a 7" inlet and I ran that to the first major branch and only then dropped to 6" for the main beyond that point. For the single woodworker, your proposal to use an 8" main with 6" drops is reasonable because you'll only be using one tool at a time. The performance should be great. For the size of your shop, there's little benefit to getting too deep in the weeds over these calculations. It would be a different story for a very large shop, particularly with multiple simultaneous users. Again...my opinion which isn't always worth the ones and zeros it's printed on. :)

[Bill Dufour]

I would raise the dc up so the inlet is as high as possible. I think I would cut a hole in the ceiling for the motor.

[Jim Becker]

I would raise the dc up so the inlet is as high as possible. I think I would cut a hole in the ceiling for the motor.

I agree with this.

[Joe Jensen]

Been looking at the calculator on Bill Pentz's site. I have a question I haven't quite seen answered on my forum search. Most threads deal with having sufficient CFM But FPM seems to get brought up less. I have now been planning an 8" main ( same size as inlet on cyclone) with 6" drops. With regard to sufficient FPM ( to keep dust from collecting in ducting) Bill shoots for 4000FPM w/ 1000 cfm required at furthest tool port.
He shows a table with calculated FPM. It shows that 6" Ducting keeps the FPM above the 4k FPM target. 7" is just under target. And 8 shows low. This seems to indicate to that an 8 ducting may not be ideal? 7 or six are better in this respect. My s.p at the furthest tool shows about 6 based on what I've calculated. So sufficient cfm with my system looks good.
But with respect to FPM should I neck down the 8" inlet on my cyclone to a 7 or 6 inch main? Or will the 6 inch drops keep FPM in the mains from dropping too low. Trying to understand this and any help is appreciated.

Thanks and below is the chart from Bills calc.


379159

The smallest opening in a run nearly completely determines the CFM that a collector can pull. This is almost always the port on the machine. The port size is like 95% of the driver of CFM. Going to a larger and larger pipe will have a very tiny effect on CFM. Bill's calculator is great, but you need to determine the actual port size where the air is pulled from near the blade. Take my Felder sliding table saw. It has a 5" port on the side that connects to a 4" flex hose that connects to the cast iron blade shroud under the blade. That opening has the same area as a 3.5" round port. So in Bill's spreadsheet I load the 3.5" and not the 5" on the side of the machine. When you do this you will see that changing from 6" to 8" pipe won't make a difference. But you will see that the velocity in feet per minute will be way too low in the 8" duct and you may not get enough velocity in a 6" vertical run to lift the dust. Very carefully measure the smallest opening for each machine and fill in Bill's sheet that way.

[Carl Kona]

Joel,

There is another end of the spectrum you should consider when thinking about 8" main, that is the required CFM at the 4000FPM in an 8" duct. As you go larger, your required CFM to maintain the same FPM will also rise dramatically (probably why the LOW reading). If you look in the attached chart you will see that from 6" to 8" you are almost doubling the required CFM at the same 4000 FPM. Looking at the 3HP Gorilla fan curve you would have to be under 5" of SP to produce that level of CFM. With a 7" main you would need 1066CFM (or 8" of SP) and a 6" main needs 784 CFM (or ~10" of SP). So you will have to do a little trial and error to determine your best setup.

As Joe mentioned above, consider the other end is the tool opening and what restriction that will place on your system. I can't recall who did the test but it was very informative regarding port size and hose size and length. He did several combinations of 4-6" ports/hoses and lengths and as you would assume the largest size (duct and hose) going right to the tool with the largest opening (some were enlarged), delivered the best performance.

BTW 6" of SP sounds on the low side when you start with almost 4.5" of SP of cyclone, filter, overhead, etc. What 'CFM Required' are you using at the top? Your SP varies with that CFM level.
379559

[Rod Sheridan]

Joel,



BTW 6" of SP sounds on the low side when you start with almost 4.5" of SP of cyclone, filter, overhead, etc. What 'CFM Required' are you using at the top? Your SP varies with that CFM level.
379559

Hi Carl, you do not add the cyclone and filter when using a packaged unit like the Oneida cyclone.

Oneida produce the unit curve with the cyclone and filter installed.

If you were using a bare blower, you would add the cyclone and filter...........Regards, Rod.

[Carl Kona]

Rod,

When I look at the Oneida curve I see 1510CFM @1.8" SP, which is stated to include the filter. So if someone determines they have 4" of static pressure in there shop ducting (less cyclone and filter) they have to add it to the 1.8" to get 5.8" correct? I don't think a lot of people start from the first data point but simply look at the 4" point and look across at the corresponding CFM. Since most independent tests I have seen show the manufacturer tests to be close if not slightly optimistic, using Bill's numbers would give a final result that should easily be met.

As a general rule wouldn't using the spreadsheet number be similar without having to find the first system data point and doing the math from there? If I missed something please let me know.

Thanks,
Carl

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Carl, no the 1510 CFM @ 1.8"SP is the rating for airflow at that pressure.

So if you connected ducting to the system that would result in 1.8"SP, you would have 1510 CFM.

If you have 4" SP you look at the graph for 4" and read your airflow.............Regards, Rod.

[Jacob Mac]

I agree with this.


What does raising the DC inlet as high as possible do?

[Jim Becker]

What does raising the DC inlet as high as possible do?
Eliminates or reduces any bends near the cyclone inlet since most folks hang their duct at or near ceiling height.

[Carl Kona]

Hi Carl, no the 1510 CFM @ 1.8"SP is the rating for airflow at that pressure.

So if you connected ducting to the system that would result in 1.8"SP, you would have 1510 CFM.

If you have 4" SP you look at the graph for 4" and read your airflow.............Regards, Rod.

Rod,

I am confused. I understand that 1.8" is what is measured at that CFM but isn't that the pressure drop of the cyclone? Why wouldn't they measure at 1" or 1/2" and get a higher CFM to advertise? I have some Dwyer equipment and following their instructions I attach a 6"x60" duct to the 6" inlet of my cyclone and measure velocity and static pressure. So when I measure 2" of pressure with only this test duct connected, isn't that pressure drop across the cyclone? If I eliminated the cyclone and just attached the duct to the blower wouldn't the measured pressure be that of the duct and be much lower?

Carl

[joel cervera]

BTW 6" of SP sounds on the low side when you start with almost 4.5" of SP of cyclone, filter, overhead, etc. What 'CFM Required' are you using at the top? Your SP varies with that CFM level.
379559


Thanks for the input Carl. As Rod stated.. The Bill Pentz calculator also states that if one is looking at a cyclone who's fan curve says something like S.P. at inlet then factors such as the cyclone, filter, etc have been accounted for and need not be added again. The fan curve for oneida cyclones do fall into this. Aside from the ducting and fittings the only other factor included to my s.p. is general overhead at 2.0.

[David L Morse]

..I am confused. I understand that 1.8" is what is measured at that CFM but isn't that the pressure drop of the cyclone? Why wouldn't they measure at 1" or 1/2" and get a higher CFM to advertise? ...l

The 1.8" measurement is the pressure drop of the test duct with no restrictions. A test duct has an entrance and so it has entrance loss. A round duct will have an entrance loss of about 1.2 (bell mouth) to 1.9 (plain end) times the velocity pressure in the duct. 1500 CFM in 8" is 4300 fpm, giving a velocity pressure of 1.1" wg. Depending on the shape of the entrance you would expect a static pressure loss of 1.3 to 2.1" wg at that flow rate.


.. So when I measure 2" of pressure with only this test duct connected, isn't that pressure drop across the cyclone? If I eliminated the cyclone and just attached the duct to the blower wouldn't the measured pressure be that of the duct and be much lower?..

To measure the pressure drop across the cyclone you would have to measure the pressure difference between the actual outlet of the cyclone and it's inlet. That is, add a pressure port at the entrance to the fan or near the top of the cyclone outlet tube. That could require a bit of surgery on some units.

If you were to remove the cyclone the total system resistance would go down, the flow would go up and the pressure drop across the test pipe would go up. The pressure measured at the DC inlet would be more negative, that is, a bigger number. I don't know if you call that lower or higher.

[Carl Kona]

The 1.8" measurement is the pressure drop of the test duct with no restrictions. A test duct has an entrance and so it has entrance loss. A round duct will have an entrance loss of about 1.2 (bell mouth) to 1.9 (plain end) times the velocity pressure in the duct. 1500 CFM in 8" is 4300 fpm, giving a velocity pressure of 1.1" wg. Depending on the shape of the entrance you would expect a static pressure loss of 1.3 to 2.1" wg at that flow rate.


Thanks for that David. I never paid attention to how significant the entry loss is on a plain end duct. When I measured my unit and it was about 2" with an unrestricted test duct (which matched Bill's assumption of ~2" for his cyclone) I figured I was right the right ballpark. But you are correct I need to measure between the blower and cyclone and not the room pressure as a baseline.

My mistake was going back to what someone told me about fan curves and that they will never change, it is just the SP you add to the fan and where you land on the curve. But this reminded me that is false. Through manufactures fan/system curves and my own testing I found the fan curve can change significantly depending on the changes to the inlet/outlet of the fan/blower (like adding a cyclone). The curve to consider must be created where your ducting begins.

I guess this is why manufactures put 7 & 8" inlets on 1.5 & 2 HP cyclones, to get better fan curves. Not because someone will put a 7" main on a 1.5HP cyclone.

Thanks again,

Carl

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

I am confused. I understand that 1.8" is what is measured at that CFM but isn't that the pressure drop of the cyclone? Why wouldn't they measure at 1" or 1/2" and get a higher CFM to advertise? I have some Dwyer equipment and following their instructions I attach a 6"x60" duct to the 6" inlet of my cyclone and measure velocity and static pressure. So when I measure 2" of pressure with only this test duct connected, isn't that pressure drop across the cyclone? If I eliminated the cyclone and just attached the duct to the blower wouldn't the measured pressure be that of the duct and be much lower?


Carl

No, that's the pressure drop of your test duct.

The curves that the cyclone manufacturer gave you are for the inlet of the cyclone. You don't have to worry about the cyclone of filter drop, only what you connect to the inlet of the cyclone...........regards, Rod.