Hanging Wall Cabinets

[George Bokros]

We are in the planing stage for a kitchen remodel. We have one wall cabinet currently that is 36" wide and another next to it that is 18" wide. These two cabinets total 44" wide and they are hung on only three studs, guess one stud falls out right in between the two cabinets. The new cabinets we are considering the mfg states that any cabinet 30" or longer needs to either have a soffit above it or support from below.

Our replacement plan calls for a 39" cabinet and a 24" cabinet (total 63" run) to replace the current two (54" run). Your thoughts, will our plan be solid and safe to do? If my thinking is correct my 63" run would catch at least four studs where the current 54" run is only catching three studs.

Thanks

[Peter Kelly]

Should be fine if the cabinets are on a hang rail system https://diy.hettich.com/en/products/fittings-for-cabinet-interior/cabinet-suspension-brackets.html

The rail can attach to all the studs. Hollow wall anchors fill in the rest of the locations.

[Doug Garson]

How about if you made your own rail system? Remove a horizontal strip of drywall say 4" wide at the anchor elevation and replace it with 1/2" plywood screwed or nailed to the studs. Then screw thru the plywood into the studs where you can and just into the plywood where you can't hit a stud. If it is an uninsulated interior wall you could even double up the plywood between the studs to give more meat for the screws to bite into.

[George Bokros]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The cabinets will not be installed by me, they will be professionally installed. I know it will be his problem but we are designing the cabinet run and the whole kitchen remodel so I am trying to do a design that will work.

[Sam Murdoch]

I'm guessing the these are 1/4" backs with an extra 1/4" or 3/8" glued on horizontals at the top and bottom of the backs. The sides are likely 1/2" material - plywood? - particle board? and these are slotted to receive the 1/4" backs which are likely just siliconed in place (maybe a few added staples). Fully loaded with dinner ware, these type of cabinets could fall off the wall regardless of how many studs the backs are attached to because the weight of the load could simply pull the cabinet(s) apart.

The question is what you intend to place in these cabinets. Even all ganged up (each box securely fastened to the other through the side walls and/or face frame) and hanging on a rail could utterly fail if they are secured through their flimsy backs - thus the need for a bottom support or soffit. Having two cabinets that rest on the counter top and flanking the attached center section of cabinets is a good solution too. Also useful if the cabinets are set and secured between two walls, with a stud or two to catch the front edges of the cabinets. A sidewall of a refrigerator cabinet can serve the same purpose if the cabinet can be through bolted to it.

In my work I will gang up runs of wall cabinetry to 60" regularly, but my cabinetry is 3/4" ply with glued and screwed 1/2" backs. The system of ganged up boxes like this can easily be supported by 4 studs using 3" # 9 washer head screws top and bottom through the back of the cabinets. If the the stud layout is not favorable, it is useful to remove the sheet rock behind the cabinetry and apply 1/2" plywood directly to the studs or letting in some 2x6 blocking.

Hanging rails is always a nice solution if the finished sides (visible sides and bottom) of the hanging cabinets are not spaced off the wall requiring some kind of trim detail. I wish that manufacturers provide load ratings for their wall cabinets. That would tell you more than width and height.

[Robert Engel]

You'll be fine. Remember when you attach the cabs together one adds strength to another.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with the rail system...either commercial or shop-made including "French cleats". Level the rail and your cabinets are dead on level horizontally. You only need to tweak for back-to-front level then.

[Justin Ludwig]

Happens all the time in the world of installing cabinets.

Screw the cabinets to their respective studs, then screw the cabinets together at the bottom and the top. Angle the screws so it seats into the bottom/deck and the top plywoods.

Don't feel that is enough? Install cabinets at usually. Drill a hole in the nailer and into the wall. Remove cabinets. Install a drywall anchor where your hole is located. Reinstall cabinets and add the extra screw. These don't hold much weight but I've used this method on spice rack cabinets that fall between studs. Those cabinets are still screwed to adjacent cabinets as that will support the majority of the weight.

[Peter Kelly]

Hanging rails is always a nice solution if the finished sides (visible sides and bottom) of the hanging cabinets are not spaced off the wall requiring some kind of trim detail. I wish that manufacturers provide load ratings for their wall cabinets. That would tell you more than width and height.Wouldn't this be the case with any installation method? You'd still want the cabinets to be plumb regardless of wall conditions. With the hang rail system, exposed cabinet sides are usually covered with an additional finished end panel that gets scribed at the rear edge. Same for base cabinets.

[Edwin Santos]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The cabinets will not be installed by me, they will be professionally installed. I know it will be his problem but we are designing the cabinet run and the whole kitchen remodel so I am trying to do a design that will work.

If they're going to be installed by a professional, then I would venture to say he will be able to install whatever design you choose and you should dedicate your brain cells to some other problem.

Unless it's his first week on the job, your installer will use any one of the various methods suggested, all of which will be in his arsenal when he arrives to do the work. Whatever you come up with, the installer will tell you he's faced worse.

[Mark Bolton]

Our default on about any cabinet install was to simply lay out the uppers on the wall with snapped lines, cut the sheetrock back, and install a 6 or 8" strip of either 1/2" or 5/8" ply horizontally screwed to the studs to give continuous fastening. Its not actually that much work and it allows you to fasten every single cabinet as needed. We always ran 90% new construction or fully gutted remodels so we always installed a 2x6 let-in to the studs horizontally at the upper and lower cab fastener locations.

Im not a fan of hanging rails unless your walls are straight as an arrow which is extremely rare.

[Edwin Santos]

Our default on about any cabinet install was to simply lay out the uppers on the wall with snapped lines, cut the sheetrock back, and install a 6 or 8" strip of either 1/2" or 5/8" ply horizontally screwed to the studs to give continuous fastening. Its not actually that much work and it allows you to fasten every single cabinet as needed. We always ran 90% new construction or fully gutted remodels so we always installed a 2x6 let-in to the studs horizontally at the upper and lower cab fastener locations.

Im not a fan of hanging rails unless your walls are straight as an arrow which is extremely rare.

One good thing about your method is it keeps the cabinet flush and introduces no space like a cleat or even a lower profile rail would introduce. I assume you use shims at the cleat to adjust for imperfections in the wall. I've done a few pantry installs with built in drawers where we installed blocking at the drawer slide locations, but never done as you've described for uppers. Thx for sharing

[Mark Bolton]

One good thing about your method is it keeps the cabinet flush and introduces no space like a cleat or even a lower profile rail would introduce. I assume you use shims at the cleat to adjust for imperfections in the wall. I've done a few pantry installs with built in drawers where we installed blocking at the drawer slide locations, but never done as you've described for uppers. Thx for sharing

We just did it across the board. For uppers and lowers. Shimming on nightmare walls is a given but we primarily work with and make face frame cabs that allow for a bit of come and go with the wall as long as its reasonable. Someone is going to have to eventually deal with a rolling wall and its usually the counter top guys. They have zero option for fudge. The rest of us can somewhat roll with the punches.

Having a continuous nailer is nice in that you can have a fastener 1.5" in-bound left and right of every cabinet interior. No one ever see's it. Even on uppers. But it does look nice when you open a cab and see a hanging fastener equally spaced on any size cabinet.

The best option on a face frame job would be to plan for a hanging rail, flush your tops to the face frame (tops are inset to flush to the face frame) and install your fasteners above the uppers top never to be seen.

These details, at least in our world, seem to go completely un-noticed and more aptly uncompensated, by the consumer. So your left making things nicer and nicer while never being compensated OR your just say the heck with it and ship the same stuff they are paying for from Riceland and slam bam contractor.

[Sam Murdoch]

Wouldn't this be the case with any installation method? You'd still want the cabinets to be plumb regardless of wall conditions. With the hang rail system, exposed cabinet sides are usually covered with an additional finished end panel that gets scribed at the rear edge. Same for base cabinets.

I have yet to install a non custom cabinetry system that came with separate finished end panels or bottoms and very very rarely is there scribe (or at the most minimal - 1/4" maybe) on the side walls.

I still maintain that for the typical box store cabinets and most "manufactured" low end cabinets, screwing them to each other does not make them a system. The whole strength when hanging issue (for uppers in particular) still rests on the material used for the construction of the walls and backs of the cabinets and how the backs are attached to the boxes, THEN, how they are attached to the support structure of the wall. Stapling, or gluing, 4 paper bags side by side won't give you a "super sack" that will hold more combined weight.

Just saying - don't ignore the manufacturers' recommendations - support at the top/bottom and/or sides could be critical. Of course if you are only storing cereal boxes and tupperware up there no problem, but uppers loaded with dinnerware or canned goods require a different approach.

[jack duren]

Happens all the time in the world of installing cabinets.

Screw the cabinets to their respective studs, then screw the cabinets together at the bottom and the top. Angle the screws so it seats into the bottom/deck and the top plywoods.

Don't feel that is enough? Install cabinets at usually. Drill a hole in the nailer and into the wall. Remove cabinets. Install a drywall anchor where your hole is located. Reinstall cabinets and add the extra screw. These don't hold much weight but I've used this method on spice rack cabinets that fall between studs. Those cabinets are still screwed to adjacent cabinets as that will support the majority of the weight.

Works for me. Only I won't pul a cabinet unless it's to throw a bunch of liquid nail on the back before we screw it. This works well on plastic walls.

Too many replies of different ways to install. I installed 7 years straight everyday 5-6 days a week. It's not complicated unless made so...

[Mark Bolton]

The whole strength when hanging issue (for uppers in particular) still rests on the material used for the construction of the walls and backs of the cabinets and how the backs are attached to the boxes


Oddly enough we have pulled down some of the most dog poop cabinets you could imagine. Particle board. Hot glued together. A lot of them assembled dry with only a surface applied hot glue fillet between a back/side back bottom, stretchers, and so on. Stapled plastic corner blocks that look like they may be a hair thicker than a milk jug. And many of them were strong as a tank. They would have hung for years. I think makers and installers tend to over estimate hanging.

My issue with continuous backers for fastening is not for strength its for speed. We can cut in two nailers in no time (doesnt have to be super clean) and the rest of the install is mindless.

I wouldnt be worried about one of our uppers falling off the wall if it only had a single fastener (or for a narrow cab having no fastener whatsoever and relying on the adjacent cabs for its hanging). But the few minutes to cut in a nailer sure does make the install a lot simpler. You just poke a pre-drill 1.5" in from the left and right of every interior and run. No stud finder, no measuring, no allowing for face frame overlaps, you just hang.

I couldnt argue with Justins install practices for a minute. Good work. But I would much rather install a backer than every rely on a plastic drywall molly for install. I think he, and I, in that situation, would just skip the molly all together lol. When a bank of cabs is screwed together at the face frame, 4-6 screws on the average run would hold the whole thing to the wall.

[Justin Ludwig]

I couldnt argue with Justins install practices for a minute. Good work. But I would much rather install a backer than every rely on a plastic drywall molly for install. I think he, and I, in that situation, would just skip the molly all together lol. When a bank of cabs is screwed together at the face frame, 4-6 screws on the average run would hold the whole thing to the wall.

I only use that method to assist those narrow cabinets from racking away from the wall. They get screwed to the adjacent cabinet(s) with 2 on top and 2 on bottom. Those narrow cabinets are always for spices or some pullout option and they usually stagger in depth (16" deep next to a 12 or 14). Otherwise, I would just extend the adjacent cabinet to a width that works.

The idea of cutting sheet rock and replacing it with ply seems overkill. Unless I knew the cabinets were going to double as a pull-up bar for an athlete! ;) I don't dispute the efficacy, just the time and cost.

[Mark Bolton]

I only use that method to assist those narrow cabinets from racking away from the wall. They get screwed to the adjacent cabinet(s) with 2 on top and 2 on bottom. Those narrow cabinets are always for spices or some pullout option and they usually stagger in depth (16" deep next to a 12 or 14). Otherwise, I would just extend the adjacent cabinet to a width that works.

The idea of cutting sheet rock and replacing it with ply seems overkill. Unless I knew the cabinets were going to double as a pull-up bar for an athlete! ;) I don't dispute the efficacy, just the time and cost.

Agreed that its more more work. We've just been in so many situations where your layout misses a bit or a stick isn't where it seemed. Taking a skill saw and cutting the drywall for the ply takes about 15 minutes. Pull the piece out, pull/drive any screwsor nails, screw the ply, and done.

Much easier on new construction when you just have horzontal blocking.

[Charles Lent]

On a relatively flat wall, or one that you can shim, the aluminum version for French Cleats work very well and are incredibly strong and they are only about 3/16" in thickness when installed. I hang the upper cabinets from these and then just add a screw in the bottom back of each cabinet to keep it from being lifted off the French Cleat. These cabinets are also aligned and screwed together at the front or face frames. You just have to be certain that these aluminum French Cleats are straight after installation on both the cabinets and the wall and shimmed where necessary,

Charley

[Dave Sabo]

Im not a fan of hanging rails unless your walls are straight as an arrow which is extremely rare.

this is EXACTLY the type of wall in which a hanging rail system excels. How long is is it going to take you to find the high point(s) on the wavy wall and figure out which cabinet to install first and the size of shims needed for the backs of the cabinets going into the low spots ?

Or or are you going to install the cabs, and remove each of them to add in the shims necessary.

Or, are you one of those installers that just leaves out the shims and or installs the run wavy to match the wall and hope the hinges have enough adjustment to make up for the sins ?

The real upside to the rail is it eliminates the need for a helper or a cabinet lift or blocks , etc....