LMI Chisels? Good for Paring?

[Mike Baker 2]

Hello.
I'm fairly new to hand tool wood working, as most of you probably know. But I have been building electric guitars for about 10 years, give or take. I have also done repairs to electrics, acoustics, violins, etc. Have replaced a couple of acoustic guitar tops, etc.
That info related, I am building an acoustic for the first time this year.
I am thinking it might be time to purchase a single 1/2"(or 12-14mm) chisel for paring use in carving the top and back braces. Something fairly nice.
I have seen the Sorby paring chisels. They are lovely.
But I'm considering the chisels from Luthiers Mercantile International, which is an instrument supply house, basically. I know that there are several instrument builders here, and they should be familiar with LMI.
I have read up on some of the luthier forums in the past, and have heard nothing but good about these chisels. But specifically for paring, of those familiar with them, what is your opinion.
These are the chisels I'm talking about. Considering the 14mm.

http://www.lmii.com/products/tools-services/chisels-gouges/lmi-chisels

I would post in the instrument makers section, but there is very little traffic there compared to here.
Thanks.

[John C Cox]

Mike,

I bought one and honestly, I do not recommend them. I wish I could because I really like LMI...

I love the handle... Very comfortable and it works very well in my hand. It's the best thing about the chisel.

It took a ton of work to get set up - the back was very heavily polished and rounded.
The steel in mine does not hold up well to typical guitar duty work - which includes a lot of paring. The edge just rolled too easily.. I went up to 30 degrees and could not get it to hold up well..

It also wanted to take a horrible feathery, persistent wire edge that was very hard to sharpen off...

There are better chisels out there.

The Pfeil from Woodcraft is fantastic. So are the Wood River socket chisels (throw the irons in the deep freezer for a day.)

Budget chisel wise - the $20 Woodcraft green handle chisel set of 4 are pretty darned good.. They are hard but hold up quite well... They advertise a 1.15% Carbon steel in the same family as the Pfeil chisel.. They do hold up better than my Aldi chisels..

[Patrick Chase]

No experience with the chisels, but the fact that they ship with a 17-18 deg primary bevel means that they're intended as very specialized parers.

I don't see any red flags in the description.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks. I will take a look at the Pfiel and Wood River. But I'm sort of looking for a longer blade, which I think the WR won't be.
I have a 1/2" Stanley 750 Sweetheart socket chisel(old, not new), so if neither of those chisels offer anything better than that, I may just stick with the 750.
I appreciate the advice/experience.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Patrick.

[Patrick Chase]

It took a ton of work to get set up - the back was very heavily polished and rounded.

I like to call this the "German tool curse". For some reason they think that people want their chisels polished into a vaguely blimp-like geometry. Some of the British makers do the same, but thankfully to a lesser degree.



The Pfeil from Woodcraft is fantastic. So are the Wood River socket chisels (throw the irons in the deep freezer for a day.)


Why put them in the freezer?

Cold treatment doesn't convert retained austenite once the tool has been tempered. You have to do it between quenching and tempering for it to have any beneficial effect, which is why I think that services that solicit end users to ship their tools off for "cryo treatment" are a racket (and this in turn has a lot to do with why people are more skeptical of cryo treatment than they should be - it's very effective when used intelligently). As much as I hate to sound like a broken record by citing Verhoeven (http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf) yet again, see page 138. A 30 min temper at fairly low temperature was enough to render cryo treatment ineffective in his test. Many other studies have shown the same thing.

Also, if those steels are made out of a low-alloy steel as you believe then there shouldn't be much retained austenite to begin with. That's much more of a problem and refrigeration is much more relevant with high[er]-alloy steels like A2 (particularly when austenitized at high temperatures) and various stainless alloys.

Pfeil chisels are good stuff. They're lightly made (as they should be) but strong where it matters.

[John C Cox]

Why put them in the freezer?

Cold treatment doesn't convert retained austenite once the tool has been tempered. You have to do it between quenching and tempering for it to have any beneficial effect, which is why I think that services that solicit end users to ship their tools off for "cryo treatment" are a racket (and this in turn has a lot to do with why people are more skeptical of cryo treatment than they should be - it's very effective when used intelligently). As much as I hate to sound like a broken record by citing Verhoeven (http://www.hybridburners.com/documents/verhoeven.pdf) yet again, see page 138. A 30 min temper at fairly low temperature was enough to render cryo treatment ineffective in his test. Many other studies have shown the same thing.

Also, if those steels are made out of a low-alloy steel as you believe then there shouldn't be much retained austenite to begin with. That's much more of a problem and refrigeration is much more relevant with high[er]-alloy steels like A2 (particularly when austenitized at high temperatures) and various stainless alloys.

I agree that it shouldn't make a difference... It makes no sense.... But it does with these.

I have found that Chinese made chisels often benefit from a ride in the deep freezer... It appears to even out the heat treatment in the "better" direction...

I decided to try it out on the advice of master knife maker Ed Fowler.... Most good chisels - nothing happens.. Stanley - nothing.. Pfeil - nothing.. Two Cherries - nothing... Buck Brothers - nothing...

Chinese chisels - over 50% come out harder, sharpen better, hold an edge better, and behave like the steel is much more uniform within the same brand.... The Wood Craft chisels came out of the freezer better...

So Patrick.... You tell me... Why does it make a difference when it shouldn't?...

[Patrick Chase]

Chinese chisels - over 50% come out harder, sharpen better, hold an edge better, and behave like the steel is much more uniform within the same brand.... The Wood Craft chisels came out of the freezer better...

So Patrick.... You tell me... Why does it make a difference when it shouldn't?...

I just looked at the product page again and noticed something that I somehow missed the first time around: "Tempered in salt bath".

That strongly suggests to me that they're doing a single-step interrupted quench as Narex does, such that the tool is only heated and cooled once (there's not much reason to resort to the complexity of molten salt otherwise). That in turn would change the rules for cryo treatment, as the re-heat for tempering is what appears to "lock in" the retained austenite per the papers I've seen.

[John C Cox]

Thanks. I will take a look at the Pfiel and Wood River. But I'm sort of looking for a longer blade, which I think the WR won't be.
I have a 1/2" Stanley 750 Sweetheart socket chisel(old, not new), so if neither of those chisels offer anything better than that, I may just stick with the 750.
I appreciate the advice/experience.

The LMI chisel is in the same length range as "typical" bench chisels.
I will see if I can get a picture this evening showing several next to eachother....

[Mike Baker 2]

The LMI chisel is in the same length range as "typical" bench chisels.
I will see if I can get a picture this evening showing several next to eachother....

Thank you.

[Todd Stock]

It's brace CARVING...which a double bevel carving chisel is pretty optimized to do. For a modern chisel, a 1/2" Pfiel #1 is what we use here, although students get demos using Cumpiano's beloved patternmaker's chisels, bevel down bench chisels, and even that crazy 'brace carving' chisel that some of the luthiery suppliers carry (dumb idea - you are stuck with shallow cuts limited by the curve of the tool). Carving chisels are designed to be steered in the cut. so changing radius cuts (scalloping, tapering) are easy. If there is an old tool show or you want to chance Ebay, look for an old Addis or similar flat, double bevel carving chisel...it will likely be thinner and more nimble than the heavier Pfiel, but you'll likely have to reshape the slightly convex bevels and put an edge on before use.

There's a lot of paring on an acoustic that needs doing, so you'll need 1/8", 1/4", and 1/2" chisels...a 3/4" is nice to have, but seldom used beyond getting the miters right on the purflings (larger mirrored area on the back to line things up). Buy quality old stuff if you work primarily in American hard and softwoods. For work in the sort of abrasives that we luthiers like, a single A2 or PVM 1/2" that will maintain an edge longer in stuff like curly anigre will handle the job. Don't buy sets...just get the three or four blades you need and spend the money saved on getting the best blades you can afford (I am partial to the Marples bevel edged, boxwood-handles blades with the Shamrock decal logo), and if working in abrasives, perhaps one 1/2" Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, etc. tech alloy blade. My favs, despite having nice older stuff and some new continues to be the late 1970's Two Cherries, but they have become scarce...they work fine in most any wood.

The LMI blades I've used have been OK...nothing special, and I hated the handle...the standard boxwood Marples handle is much more comfortable for paring work, or the octagonal Two Cherries from the late 1970's. PATINA is coming up second weekend in March if in mid-Atlantic area if within striking range, but we're getting into the old tools show season, so keep an eye out.

If using Cumpiano as a guide, get the updates and get on one of the forums to see what we do now, versus 40 years ago re: construction practices before tooling up for a method that Cumpiano has modified quite a bit since publication.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, Todd. That's a ton of the info I need right there.
I'm on the OLF, but have not visited in quite a while since finances have stopped my building for the last two years. I was finally able to gather all of the wood I need to start this acoustic build, and am going to enjoy this, I think.

[Todd Stock]

Not there either, but one of my students (Woodie G?) posts on OLF and is a good source of all the 'where to buy' info...she is our power shopper. IIRC, Ruby50 there (Ed Minch) is an old tools guy and worth a PM if you need some help, but it's hard to swing a dead cat here without swatting a couple dozen rust aficionados, so squeeze these guys dry for info.

Keep in mind that luthiers may or may not come out of a hand tool woodworking background, so there's a lot of advice (e.g., sharpening, finding good old and new tools) that is better obtained here than on luthiery-specific sites. It's not that there are not guys that know the space there on those sites, but you'll have to wade through some pretty odd ideas on what constitutes sharp, etc. coming from the folks that bypassed the whole hand tools thing.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, and yep, I direct people here any chance I get. Lots of good info here, and quite a few "natural resources"(crusty old woodworkers :D ) to hit up for info.

[john jesseph]

Hi there,

These chisels are made by Carl Heidtmann iirc, and are the same chisels that Woodcarver's Supply sell as Lamp brand. Of course the LMI chisels sport the distinctive handles, while the Lamp brand have octagonal hornbeam handles.

I like the fishtail Heidtmann gouges, but prefer Pfeil straight gouges as far as carving gouges go. I think I have a couple LMI chisels at home in the shop. I will take a closer look at them this evening. Basically what has been already stated here is accurate from my vantage point.

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, John.

[Matt Lau]

Ooooh! Finally something that I'm qualified to comment on.

I would recommend that you talk with Stan Covington.
Two cherries- gummy, soft, typical german steel
LMI- gummy, soft, can have a usable working edge, but nothing special
Pfeil- not impressed. A bit soft. They work though, but not as nice.
Sorby-- Haven't tried it. I'm eyeing some older ones on eBay, but promised Stan that I wouldn't do any major tool acquisition until I get a girlfriend and get on with life. The old ones seem nicely made.
Blue Spruce-- the most beautifully made chisel that I've ever had. Blade disappoints me. I will sell in near future.

If you get a paring chisel from Stan, it'll be built sorta like a short pool stick.
The blade can flex, but it's much thicker than the western chisels.
Edge retention will be amazing, and it'll sharpen very easily.
The blade will probably be slightly off-line so the handle can clear.

Another chisel that's worth considering is the bullnose chisel from north bay forge.
I showed it to the late Gustav Fredell, and he thought it'd make a nice brace carving chisel.
I haven't used mine yet, since I'm been temporarily sleeping in the living room as renovations are being done.

[John C Cox]

As you can see here - the LMI chisel is right there in the same range as other bench chisels.

Honestly, I have not specifically needed my long bladed paring chisels on any of my last builds....

https://s14.postimg.org/s23kljb01/image.jpg

[Patrick Chase]

As you can see here - the LMI chisel is right there in the same range as other bench chisels.

Ooh, a PhatMax *and* a Buck-of-Borg.

Full disclosure: I have both.

Edit: Is the 3rd chisel from top the new WoodCraft?

[steven c newman]

378948
Users....

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, John. Also for your perspective per actual instrument building. I think I'm just going to go with my old 750.
Thanks, all of you.
Steven, nice. What is the fourth from the right?

[steven c newman]

1/2 wide Witherby....

[Mike Baker 2]

:D
Thanks..

[john jesseph]

Just ran out to the shop and compared the Heidtmann gouges to the LMI chisels. Same fit, finish, and markings. The LMI chisels aren’t something I would have bought, they just were in with a load of luthier's tools I bought from a guy a while ago. They seem to be essentially flat gouges - edges somewhat rounded. I didn't put them with the rest of my chisels. They ended up with the carving gouges.

If I felt I need for a long chisel, I would use one of the two on the left: Charles Buck 1.25 inch, or Swan 0.5 inch. I suppose you could carve braces any number of ways, and the instrument won’t know what you used.

378961

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks. The 1/2" Swan is lovely.

[John C Cox]

Is the 3rd chisel from top the new WoodCraft?

Yep. Thats it. Right next to the new Pfeil.....

[Matt Lau]

Nice chisels, guys!

[John C Cox]

Honestly the reason I have so many in this "collection" (cough) is because I am buying one and trying it out to see how I like it....

Chisels I have tried, like, and would buy more of based on trying them out so far:
Pfeil
WoodRiver socket chisels
Woodcraft green handle chisels
Stanley made of Sheffield steel
Buck Brothers - but only because they are very good after rehardening and tempering the tips harder than they come in... Otherwise I wouldn't buy more - they are too soft out of the package.

Note my list doesn't include chisels I haven't tried because I can't say either way in real life.

[Patrick Chase]

Chisels I have tried, like, and would buy more of based on trying them out so far:
...
Stanley made of Sheffield steel

So not the PhatMax with the tang that goes all the way through the handle to finessfully transmit impacts from sledge to edge? I'm shocked, shocked.

[John C Cox]

So not the PhatMax with the tang that goes all the way through the handle to better transmit impacts from sledge to edge? I'm shocked, shocked.

Actually - they are Sheffield steel (they used to advertise EN31 - a UK version of 52100).. And they are way better than I thought they would be. I am seriously considering hacking off the handle + 50lbs of inter-handle steel and mounting the iron on a proper wood handle. They would probably make a decent butt chisel...

[Patrick Chase]

Actually - they are Sheffield steel (they used to advertise EN31 - a UK version of 52100).. And they are way better than I thought they would be. I am seriously considering hacking off the handle + 50lbs of inter-handle steel and mounting the iron on a proper wood handle. They would probably make a decent butt chisel...

Yeah, I have a set of those that I keep as "beater chisels" to loan out to people. As you say they're not horrible, but I don't think they're great either. The irons are also overly thick, so you'd still have that to deal with even after chopping off the handle.

Given what they did with the tang I'm surprised they didn't make the iron out of S7 or something like that. That "through tang" is a recipe for shock.

[Mike Baker 2]

Actually - they are Sheffield steel (they used to advertise EN31 - a UK version of 52100).. And they are way better than I thought they would be. I am seriously considering hacking off the handle + 50lbs of inter-handle steel and mounting the iron on a proper wood handle. They would probably make a decent butt chisel...
I have the three piece set of them. They take and hold an edge as good as anything else I have. They are just really heavy/clunky.

[Jim Koepke]

My longest chisels are Buck Brothers and Witherby:

379031

The two chisels on the bottom left are Witherby, the next three are crank neck Buck Brothers. The next six are my butt chisels by various makers. The skinny one is a 1/8" Buck brothers followed by a 1/4" and 5/16" Witherby chisels followed by a 3/8" Swan followed by a Buck Bros, a Witherby and two more Buck Brothers. My memory is faltering on the next three and then there are the mortise chisels.

The Buck Brothers may take a few more trips to the stones, but most of the time my feeling is the low bevel angle may also contribute to less edge life. Most of the time they seem to hang in for as long as need be.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The two chisels on the bottom left are Witherby, the next three are crank neck Buck Brothers. The next six are my butt chisels by various makers. The skinny one is a 1/8" Buck brothers followed by a 1/4" and 5/16" Witherby chisels followed by a 3/8" Swan followed by a Buck Bros, a Witherby and two more Buck Brothers. My memory is faltering on the next three and then there are the mortise chisels.

What's the pigsticker on the far right? It looks like a modern RI to my eye, but with the handle replaced or refinished?

[Jim Koepke]

What's the pigsticker on the far right? It looks like a modern RI to my eye, but with the handle replaced or refinished?

The maker's mark is Thos Ibbotson & Co. It is a 1/2" sticker bought off of ebay.

jtk

[Chuck Nickerson]

I have a full set of LMI paring chisels. The primary bevel is 17.5* and the secondary bevel is 20*.
They work well for my short paring chisel needs. But I don't expect great longevity at 20*.

[Matt Lau]

Hey John,

You owe it to yourself to try good Japanese steel sometime.