My friends shop - photo

[Steve Stube]

Yesterday my friends shop (40' X 64' with a 12' X 24' addon) burned and I'm posting this photo for two reasons as a possible 'heads-up' to others.

If you experience any kind of an electrical abnormality - check it out or have it checked out by a qualified person ASAP but in the meantime disconnect power from the potential problem. We think, and we are not experts, that the source of the fire may have been at a table saw.

And second, review your insurance needs and obtain the coverage you will be comfortable with if the worst case becomes a reality.

I'm not seeking any replies - consider it a public service announcement or FYI type of notice. My friend will not be stopped by this detour in his route, it's my wish that none of you face a similar bump in the road.

[Dev Emch]

I have to agree with this 100 percent. First, I hope that no one was hurt in this incident and that he had some level of insurance.

Please bear in mind that many of the items and photos that I have posted are for information only. As you all know, I am a professional electrical engineer with an above average knowledge base in power (hydro-electric) and computer hardware. If your not comfortable in working with these items, please contact a licensed electrical contractor.

We all have read about the safety advantages of using a saw stop saw as well as wearing eye and hearing protection and of installing and using dust collection gear.

But the safety gear in our electrical systems is equally if not more important. All of us should take this moment to inventory our electrical systems and examine the existance of and working condition of all safety systems. Ask yourself the following question. Should a short circuit break out in any of the breaker protected branch circuits, will they trip? This means checking the maximum amperage provided by each breaker against the smallest gage line in that branch circuit. If you find excessive current possible, upgrade the gage ASAP.

For those of us using phase conversion circuits, please make sure you have a full disconnect on the system downstream of the phase converter. In other words, all three lines are cold when the converter is off. Do not allow the non-wild legs to remain hot all the time. This may not be code required; however, it is peace of mind knowing that nothing can happen downstream of the converter if your not in the shop using the converter.

Also make sure you have adequate gage and breaker protection on the upstream side of the converter. Lastly, if possible, make sure your shop has its own main line disconnect and that this is accessible with ease.

I never leave power on in my shop with the exception of the light and recepticle circuit. All other circuits including phase conversion and my machine tools are ice cold when I leave the shop. Its Policy!

Our prayers go out tonight for the loss of this shop and God Speed to your buddy Steve.

[Jim Becker]

"OUCH"...and excellent advice.

[scott spencer]

Good post, and my condolescences to your friend.

[Tyler Howell]

Haven't been up on the soap box in some time and the air is pretty thin up here. But I wanted to add another voice on the side of caution.
We get a lot of advise on this great site. Too often the questions are looking for permission to break the rules or save a buck when it comes to wiring.

Use of extension cords.
Modifying a circuit to suit your needs.
Use of convenience materials to wire a shop
Use of industrial tools in a home environment.

All have a place and may work for a life time with out incident.
Per our authors own words electricity is suspect but not yet proven guilty.
I am the first in line to support the D.I.Y WW.
I'm also the first to say we find problems even with installations by pros.

The big catch phrases in many lines of business is Risk Assessment.
Pulling and permit and having a job inspected is just one form of Risk Mitigation.


My old signature line was "Knowledge is Power"
Good luck and play safe.

[Neal Flatley]

As an Electrical Engineer and Fire Chief I've seen my share of fires caused by an electrical fault. Please keep in mind that circuit breakers are only designed to protect the wiring in your home, not what is connected to it. Overloaded motors, overloaded extension cords, overloaded switches as well as any type of intermittant connection can generate enough heat to start a fire without the circuit breaker ever tripping.:eek:

Most of the electrical fires I've seen were with unattended equipment. Usually we will catch that something is wrong while were in our workshops. However once we leave the shop any potential electrical problem is free to fester.

Take Dev's advice strongly, arrange as many of the circuits to be cold when the shop is unattended. Of course remote annunciating smoke detectors, rate of rise heat detectors and fire extinguishers are a given.

Stay safe.

Neal

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I regularly vacuum my electrical outlets. Is this anal or is there no danger from dust packed into an outlet?

[Frank Guerin]

I don't post much. I'm a better listener than a talker. Besides I gather more wisdom here than I could ever offer. That being said I went through a house fire that was very difficult to recuperate from. As far as shop fires go I would recommend being able to configuer your electrical means in a way that you can walk out your door after you throw the main breaker
( security excluded. ). It does give you some peace of mind.

[Don Baer]

Having gown up with a father who was an electrician and haveing worked as one earlier in my career I have seen my share of hodge podge wiring. I have actualy told neighbors who tried to do there own wiring that they can call me and I would do it for them for free just to make sure that it is done right. You can't be too careful around it.

I have gotten into the habit of unplugging all of my power tools when not in use. That includes my stationary tools. This does two things. It keeps them from being started "accidently" by anyone and also protects the shop when it is not occupied. In my new shop I plan on putting all of my 110 and 220 circuits on magnetic relays so I can kill power to those circuit when I'm not in the shop and furhter more it will protect any tools from reatarting when power is restored should there be a power outadge.

The only thing I don't like about my new TS is the fact that it does not us a mag starter. My router and grinder as well as the lathe, drill press and several other tools are the same way. I figure better safe then sorry.

[Randy Moore]

Hey Steve,

Is there anything we can do to help your friend? Let us know and we will do what we can, I hope.
I have never been through a fire and hope that I never do.
Randy

[Frank Hagan]

I have gotten into the habit of unplugging all of my power tools when not in use. That includes my stationary tools. This does two things. It keeps them from being started "accidently" by anyone and also protects the shop when it is not occupied. In my new shop I plan on putting all of my 110 and 220 circuits on magnetic relays so I can kill power to those circuit when I'm not in the shop and furhter more it will protect any tools from reatarting when power is restored should there be a power outadge.

This is what I do also. My shop is in the third car portion of my three car garage, and everything is pretty compact in there. But when I leave I have all of the tools unplugged.

If I have to add more power than is there, I'm thinking of adding a subpanel for my shop with a master disconnect for everything in there.

[Dev Emch]

Even the pros screw up once in a while:mad:

About 1.5 to 2 years ago, i was tweaking my homemade phase converter. Now this collection of ebay specials was doing a great job and I was quite pleased. It ran most of what I wanted it to run.

But as I got more into super heavy machines such as olivers and when I tried to get my german made shaper to run, I began having more and more issues until finally the oliver planer and the shaper were just to much. They just would not start. Tried to but it was more than the converter could turn over. Now this was not something stupid like trying to start a 15 HP planer with a 5 HP converter. IT was trying to start a 5 HP planer with a 15 HP converter. That is how I learned about easy starts and hard starts the hard way.

So back to the main story. In trying to get the planer running, I began tweaking the converter by adding run capacitors to the output legs to adjust the wild leg voltage. Add a few, turn it on and take some measurements. Remove a few, repeat. Add some more and repeat. All the time i was writing down all my empirical data in my engineering notebook. Once an engineer, always an engineer. So on one measurement, I read 358 volts. This is on a 245 volt system. I knew exactly why it did this and this value was not a surprise. The caps were rated for much more on the dielectric breakdown.

But my nose began to burn and my eyes began to water something bad. The oder was getting worse and worse. It was the most acrid, putrid stench i have ever smelled. This stink could clean out a grease pit! IT was also new and, without any doubt, electrical in nature. So I immediatly shut down all my conversion circuits and began to walk about.

At first, I figured i tossed something into the old wood stove which I had ran until about 4:00 AM the previous night. Some kind of twinkie wrapper or what not. You know how it goes. Nope, that was not it. So I checked every single circuit and examined the wire connections. No sign of heat. Non of the hubbles were hot or melted.

So where the heck is this smell comming from? OH MY GOD! NO! I grabbed my allen wrench set and removed the allen socket head bolts on the electrical box for my Hardinge HLV-EM metal lathe. As the door swung open, the stench darn near knocked me over.

That was that. The mainline disconnect was manual and I had not thrown it a few months back when I last used the lathe. The high voltage caused the main control transformer to overheat and innitiate a transformer core meltdown. The winding insulation and protective varnish was vaporized and re-deposited on the inside and bottom of the electrical box.

Since then, I have finally found a replacement control transformer for this lathe but have not yet installed it. I also had to pull the schematics and study them carefully to see where all the electrical interlocks are and what may also have been fried down steam of the control transformer. So far, i think I was very lucky in that the damage seams to be isolated to the control transformer. The hardinge HLV uses a bodine DC drive motor to propel the carriage and there is a calibrated control module in the speed box that I am worried about. I would say there is a 1 chance in 10 that this is gone. Should it be gone, I will need to figure out how to build a new circuit board or repair the current one. The potential for some serious engineering bench time is very real as this motor and control unit are no loner directly available.

So the moral is clear. No matter how cocky you are about electricy, it demands respect and sooner or later, if you let your guard down, it will get you in its own unique little way.

[Dev Emch]

Even the pros screw up once in a while:mad:

About 1.5 to 2 years ago, i was tweaking my homemade phase converter. Now this collection of ebay specials was doing a great job and I was quite pleased. It ran most of what I wanted it to run.

But as I got more into super heavy machines such as olivers and when I tried to get my german made shaper to run, I began having more and more issues until finally the oliver planer and the shaper were just to much. They just would not start. Tried to but it was more than the converter could turn over. Now this was not something stupid like trying to start a 15 HP planer with a 5 HP converter. IT was trying to start a 5 HP planer with a 15 HP converter. That is how I learned about easy starts and hard starts the hard way.

So back to the main story. In trying to get the planer running, I began tweaking the converter by adding run capacitors to the output legs to adjust the wild leg voltage. Add a few, turn it on and take some measurements. Remove a few, repeat. Add some more and repeat. All the time i was writing down all my empirical data in my engineering notebook. Once an engineer, always an engineer. So on one measurement, I read 358 volts. This is on a 245 volt system. I knew exactly why it did this and this value was not a surprise. The caps were rated for much more on the dielectric breakdown.

But my nose began to burn and my eyes began to water something bad. The oder was getting worse and worse. It was the most acrid, putrid stench i have ever smelled. This stink could clean out a grease pit! IT was also new and, without any doubt, electrical in nature. So I immediatly shut down all my conversion circuits and began to walk about.

At first, I figured i tossed something into the old wood stove which I had ran until about 4:00 AM the previous night. Some kind of twinkie wrapper or what not. You know how it goes. Nope, that was not it. So I checked every single circuit and examined the wire connections. No sign of heat. Non of the hubbles were hot or melted.

So where the heck is this smell comming from? OH MY GOD! NO! I grabbed my allen wrench set and removed the allen socket head bolts on the electrical box for my Hardinge HLV-EM metal lathe. As the door swung open, the stench darn near knocked me over.

That was that. The mainline disconnect was manual and I had not thrown it a few months back when I last used the lathe. The high voltage caused the main control transformer to overheat and innitiate a transformer core meltdown. The winding insulation and protective varnish was vaporized and re-deposited on the inside and bottom of the electrical box.

Since then, I have finally found a replacement control transformer for this lathe but have not yet installed it. I also had to pull the schematics and study them carefully to see where all the electrical interlocks are and what may also have been fried down steam of the control transformer. So far, i think I was very lucky in that the damage seams to be isolated to the control transformer. The hardinge HLV uses a bodine DC drive motor to propel the carriage and there is a calibrated control module in the speed box that I am worried about. I would say there is a 1 chance in 10 that this is gone. Should it be gone, I will need to figure out how to build a new circuit board or repair the current one. The potential for some serious engineering bench time is very real as this motor and control unit are no loner directly available.

So the moral is clear. No matter how cocky you are about electricy, it demands respect and sooner or later, if you let your guard down, it will get you in its own unique little way.

[Chip Charnley]

<snip>
In my new shop I plan on putting all of my 110 and 220 circuits on magnetic relays so I can kill power to those circuit when I'm not in the shop and furhter more it will protect any tools from reatarting when power is restored should there be a power outadge.

<snip>


OK, let me show my ignorance. What is a magnetic disconnect/relay? Putting a master disconnect on my shop circuits would not be easy/inexpensive but this sounds like something that could be done and I would like to understand it better.

[Steve Stube]

Thanks for the concern voiced and the great tips offered.

Here is an update;
Insurance company is SLOW to respond. A phone call to them the day of the fire satisfies the local rep. that the claim will be more than $40K (actually many times that) but he has to come out and look it over before he turns it over to the next guy up the chain that handles bigger claims. Knowing this it still takes a week for him to come to the site to declare it a total loss. Then more scheduling before the next rep. who shows up to say the same "total loss" and have an investigating rep. pin down the cause of the fire. Conclusion - "accidental fire" - point of origin very near what we surmised but we did miss it by a few feet (not the tablesaw). Then comes those little inventory sheets with all the blanks to fill in as if folks keep track of such details for their Hobby Shop. Mind you my friend is taking this all in stride, I think I was more upset and verbal about it than he. I like to think I was some help to him when I came up with a list of tools I knew he had and a few of those items weren't yet on his list. I offered catalogs and did some internet searches for information and pricing (his computer failed and he is still waiting for the computer guy to come fix it). This past Sat. he had completed 26 of those inventory pages (I don't remember how many items to a page) to turn into his insurance company and was held up until then waiting for the electrical contractor to submit his quote. It's all turned in and still no word back from his agent.
Two weeks ago he signed a contract to get the building built. The new shop construction will begin the first of Jan. 06 and be of the same size and layout as the previous structure. Earlier today the demolition crew started to remove sheetmetal from the old structure (what is left of it) so the front end loaders have a shot at scooping up the carnage. Lathes, milling machine, grinders, brake, shears, welders (several including a trailer mounted portable), compressors - a well outfitted metal fabrication shop and a lesser equipped wood shop. 1929 Ford 2dr completely restored, a 29 Ford fiberglass panel truck (reduced to a pile of glass fibers), a restored Ford 2000 tractor, wings and pontoons for his Ultralite experimental (fuselage hangered elsewhere - fortunately), motorized hang glider, fishing boat & Cub tractor (in the photo), car size paint booth and spray equipment - the list goes on. I did trailer my 32 Ford truck cab home Sat. that had been stored at his place. Anybody looking for a slightly toasted project car let me know (see photo) I have no room for it inside.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/32FordCabAF1Small.jpg
BTW, that 12' X 24' addition (on the right side in the photo) was ~ 2 weeks old and built to house his shop built Harley choppers - the 8 bikes in it (each his own creation) were saved except for some smoke damage that has since been rectified. My friend was wheeling these out and away from the burning building while firefighters were attempting to gain access to the main shop where two more choppers were lost to fire. One bike still on the fixture table, completely built, waiting to be torn down for painting and another new motor and parts on a bench waiting for the master to build a new frame etc. for it. Yes he is a builder of things (wood, fiberglass or metal) and before the choppers it was hot rods ("T" buckets & pro street), drag bikes, flying machines (he is a lic. pilot), special trailers, dune buggies, furniture, two houses and the shop that burned. His day job was Fitter/Welder until early retirement ~ 6 years ago. He has a passion for hunting, raising sport birds from chicks to release, farming about 15 acres of crops for wild game.

[Roger Los]

Man, what a loss. Glad his spirits seem to be up.

Did I mention I'm sprinklering my new shop when I build it? A fire cabinet for flammables is already part of my routine. Fire is one of my big fears. (Sprinklering the new house, too.)

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Thanks for the concern voiced and the great tips offered.

Here is an update;
Insurance company is SLOW to respond. A phone call to them the day of the fire satisfies the local rep. that the claim will be more than $40K (actually many times that) but he has to come out and look it over before he turns it over to the next guy up the chain that handles bigger claims. Knowing this it still takes a week for him to come to the site to declare it a total loss. Then more scheduling before the next rep. who shows up to say the same "total loss"

This sounds unreasonable to me...and if I ever have a claim of ANY sort that requires my StateFarm agent to drive out to the property, I'll be expecting him within an HOUR of when I call...and if a followup is required from someone else, they'd better be on the next plane or State Farm will lose my $3,000 a year or so worth of preminum dollars. I'm sure they're busy with Louisianna and Mississippi, but that kind of response is ridiculous in a catastrophe.

KC

[Steve Stube]

KC, of coarse I agree with you that AAA has blotched this up right from the get-go. AAA agent promised, more than a week ago, to pay the building contractor $10K to lock in the start date for construction - as of yesterday they still hadn't made that payment and the contractor may not be able to hold his spot. This particular contractor builds 400 this size and larger per year and has a great reputation in the industry, it would be a real shame to loose him because SOMEBODY at AAA doesn't honor his word (lies).

Great progress was made on the demolition thus far - steel & iron was separated from wood etc. (somewhat) and there are several more truck loads to be hauled away.

AAA is making a name for themselves - I won't say more.