Thoughts on Upgrading

[Mike Baker 2]

https://youtu.be/8LA5Ic_4_gg

[Jim Koepke]

If what one has is working why upgrade?

jtk

[Matt Evans]

If what one has is working why upgrade?

jtk

If one has the ability to upgrade tools to something that is either more enjoyable or works even 5% better, it can be worth it. I didn't watch the video, but considering my own tool purchases over the last 15 years, I can tell you that for operations that I do frequently, the better a tool is the more efficient I get when performing that task.

Consider dovetail saws. I started with a cruddy gents saw, moved through a series of used backsaws, then to the Veritas models, and now the Bad Axe dovetail saw. My skill has improved, yes, but as it has I have upgraded my equipment to make things that much easier and more accurate. (And, for what its worth, the Bad Axe is at least 25% better to use than the Veritas dovetail saw. Add that it actually fits my hand, is a gorgeous saw and has a both a thinner saw plate and less set, and the upgrade is more than worth the price)

[Pat Barry]

If what one has is working why upgrade?

jtk
How old is your primary vehicle? Does it need more and more maintenance? Are you concerned it might breakdown and leave you waiting for a tow? Maybe you just enjoy the constant attention it requires. Maybe you can't afford newer / better?

[ken hatch]

If one has the ability to upgrade tools to something that is either more enjoyable or works even 5% better, it can be worth it. I didn't watch the video, but considering my own tool purchases over the last 15 years, I can tell you that for operations that I do frequently, the better a tool is the more efficient I get when performing that task.

Consider dovetail saws. I started with a cruddy gents saw, moved through a series of used backsaws, then to the Veritas models, and now the Bad Axe dovetail saw. My skill has improved, yes, but as it has I have upgraded my equipment to make things that much easier and more accurate. (And, for what its worth, the Bad Axe is at least 25% better to use than the Veritas dovetail saw. Add that it actually fits my hand, is a gorgeous saw and has a both a thinner saw plate and less set, and the upgrade is more than worth the price)

Matt,

I have most of the Bad Axe saws, all of the Veritas saws and a few other makes. Maybe it is because I do not have the skills to tell the difference, MsBubba tells me all the time I'm a klutz, but bottom line they all work about the same if they are sharp. Blindfold me, hand me a saw and a board and I'd be hard pressed to tell which saw I was using. Which is pretty much how I pick a saw for any job, which one is about the right size and is under hand, that's the one I use.

As always with anything in wood or life.....YMMV.

ken

[Chet R Parks]

Ken, your quote, "but bottom line they all work about the same if they are sharp." Truer words were never spoken.
Chet

[Jim Koepke]

If what one has is working why upgrade?

jtk


If one has the ability to upgrade tools to something that is either more enjoyable or works even 5% better, it can be worth it. I didn't watch the video, but considering my own tool purchases over the last 15 years, I can tell you that for operations that I do frequently, the better a tool is the more efficient I get when performing that task.

Consider dovetail saws. I started with a cruddy gents saw, moved through a series of used backsaws, then to the Veritas models, and now the Bad Axe dovetail saw. My skill has improved, yes, but as it has I have upgraded my equipment to make things that much easier and more accurate. (And, for what its worth, the Bad Axe is at least 25% better to use than the Veritas dovetail saw. Add that it actually fits my hand, is a gorgeous saw and has a both a thinner saw plate and less set, and the upgrade is more than worth the price)


Maybe my wording should have been more like if you have something that is working quite well, why upgrade. Desire for something better suited for a job or even the appreciation of a new quality tool is enough motivation, as long as one doesn't have to beg forgiveness from ones significant other.



How old is your primary vehicle? Does it need more and more maintenance? Are you concerned it might breakdown and leave you waiting for a tow? Maybe you just enjoy the constant attention it requires. Maybe you can't afford newer / better?

My truck is a '94 the car an '01. Neither are going to be left by the wayside just because of a fuel pump or windshield wiper motor goes south. Have replaced one of each in the last 5 years. Other than that just keeping the fluids up and and changing the oil has been the extent of the attention required. Finding a replacement for a truck is easier than finding a replacement for the car. If there was a car to hold 8 passengers or a load of lumber available with better gas mileage, it might get my consideration. Both of these vehicles were used to move all of our possessions from California to Washington almost 10 years ago and except for the cost of gas and maybe a new set of tires, either of them have my faith of being able to make another round trip without problems.

But back to upgrading tools, my old bandsaw could only resaw 6" and not very well. It was upgraded to a much better unit that can handle 12" resawing.

My best dovetail saw was having problems. For some reason the plate was very brittle and would occasionally have a tooth snap off even with a very light set. My decision was to find something better. What ended up happening is getting a kit and a replacement saw plate from Ron Bontz. Now there are two fine dovetail saws in my shop along with a few other saws that used to be used for dovetailing. Now they have moved on to other specialties.

My desire for a better block plane led me to purchasing a premium LN #60. It is a very well made plane and is minimally better than my old cordovan or English Stanley #60. The older two are still used more often due to the weight difference.

My opinion is nothing more or less than my opinion. If someone wants to upgrade simply because they can it is enough motivation for them.

In my opinion my dog meat looking #4 could maybe look a lot better. There really isn't much other than appearance to be gained by purchasing a newer model.

My point is one might want a better reason to upgrade than just having some new found funds burning a hole in their pocket.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

If a saw is dog meet, if it's a straight saw plate, all it needs is cleaning, maybe new teeth, and tender loving care.

I recommend it, the trip is a fun one. The old saw plates mostly are taper ground and good metallurgy.

Saw handle design is fun and curly maple handles look great as well as sapele, walnut and oak.

[Warren Mickley]

I have upgraded almost all my bench chisels since 2012. Chisels that I used for forty and fifty years now sit in a box unused. I still use one chisel that my father received for Christmas 1930, now rehandled. All the rest are 19th century English chisels. I use octagonal beech handles with no ferrules and no rings; this is the traditional set up.

[Phil Mueller]

I haven’t upgraded, since I’m only into this about 4 years. My first were two cherries and Ashley Isles. Over the past few years I’ve purchased one chisel from a few “premium” makers to see how I like them. Comes down to whether it feels good in my hand, and if I can get them sharp with the medium I use.

My point is, you don’t need to commit to a full set of something new. Buy one, try it, buy something else, try it...
Nothing wrong with a few of the same size. I keep several of the size I use most sharp, so I can just switch them out in the middle of some project without stopping to hone.

[Mike Baker 2]

Warren, I'd love to see those chisels!

[Mike Baker 2]

Paul, I agree. I am contemplating a single purchase for specific use, ie; paring the braces on acoustic guitar tops and backs. I don't need a matched set of anything, just decent quality tools.
I also have two of the ones I use the most, for the same reason.

[bridger berdel]

I upgrade continuously. The criterion are the fitness of my current tools to do the job at hand , the discovery of tools better (or sometimes just 'different') from my current tools and the amount of cash being asked for such discovered tools.

So if a job requires a tool I don't have i go buy it.
If I find a tool secondhand that I either don't have already or is better than what i do have and at a price low enough, i buy it.

'Low enough price' is a contextual variable 🤔

[Mike Baker 2]

'Low enough price' is a contextual variable 樂

Indeed it is. LOL.

[Jim Koepke]

'Low enough price' is a contextual variable ��

Many things have found their way to my shop because of the price being low. Especially if it is a useable tool that might make a little profit if it needs to be sold.

Heck, there are likely more 1/4" & 1/2" chisels in my shop than many people have in all their chisels.

jtk

[Mike Baker 2]

Many things have found their way to my shop because of the price being low. Especially if it is a useable tool that might make a little profit if it needs to be sold.

Heck, there are likely more 1/4" & 1/2" chisels in my shop than many people have in all their chisels.

jtk

Yep. I buy every good quality 1/2" or 12mm chisel I find at reasonable price. Seems like I use that size a lot.

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I'd love to see those chisels!

Here are a few
378912

[John C Cox]

Mike,

Thanks for the video. I appreciate that you initially started off where so many people forget to go: Can you sharpen these new "upgrade" chisels? You don't need a major in Metallurgy to understand what you can and can't reasonably sharpen with what you have - or at least approach it with eyes wide open as to what else you will need to buy....

Next point was also a very good one.. What is the problem with the ones you have now?
If you can't get them sharp because of poor sharpening technique - "premium" tools may only make that worse... And it's not a tools problem - it's a "you" problem...

If the blades are too short - yeah... If the steel is too soft - yeah... If it's a poor alloy and won't hold an edge - yeah... That's a problem.... And these can all be problems with hardware store fare - because they are made for people to hammer on...

But if you want new super steel because you will spend less time sharpening - it's a lie... Believe me.... You may sharpen less frequently - but it may well take a lot longer when you do (even on diamond plates)...

Expectations are also something to keep your eyes open to.... The law of diminishing returns is in full effect and you will pay exponentially more for each grade better stuff.... "Twice as good" as Aldi chisels probably means Two Cherries - which I would place about 3 grades above Aldi.. They cost 20x more per set... And while Two Cherries are very good 1st quality tools - they stil aren't even "Top of the heap"... The same 4 PM-V11 chisels runs 60x more expensive... A good hand made Japanese set of 4 could cost 50-100x more for the 4 piece set...

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that for yourself...

Thanks

[Mike Baker 2]

Thanks, John.
Warren, those are really good looking chisels. I love older things; don't know why, exactly. I could run off a list of reasons, but in reality it doesn't really matter. I guess it was only natural for me to gravitate towards hand tools. Sooo many old, beautifully made pieces.
Thanks for the pics.

[Patrick Chase]

Here are a few
378912

Nice! I imagine those handle very easily/lightly. Out of curiosity how much longer (if any) do you think those irons were "as forged" in the 18th Century?

On an interesting note, even your pigsticker (poking into the right side of the frame) looks somewhat svelte by current standards. At least I'm guessing that's a pigsticker based on the presence of a similarly-sized mortise just below it in the frame.

[Graham Haydon]

Mike, you made a good point. If the work at hand is the driving force, and that task is completed to the satisfaction of the worker, then there is no need to change. As you also mention it is easy to be drawn in to changing based on a multitude of subjective reasons. So many of those reasons do have potential to confuse.

[Mike Baker 2]

Graham, thanks.
I would mention that all of my videos are geared toward beginners, from one beginner to another. I'm trying to sort of go on a journey as a new wood worker, and hope others will travel that path with me. It's not your typical Youtube fare.
So this is aimed at new woodworkers, like me. As we grow and advance in skill level, of course we will move on to finer tools. Just like as a musician for 35 years I don't generally pick up a plywood acoustic to play. But if I did, I could make it sound as sweet as it is capable of because the skills are there.
The gentlemen here, who have decades of experience, will naturally gravitate to what they have found they prefer, and what their budget allows. I am not disparaging that one bit.

[Patrick Chase]

Mike, you should clearly upgrade. A full set each of Tasai oire nomi and usu nomi should do the trick for chisels. For planes I suggest Holtey, or maybe Sauer and Steiner if you absolutely must dredge the bottom of the barrel.

Oh, and I can't recommend the Canon 1Dx II enough for miscellaneous snaps and shop videos. Merely learning what all of the buttons are supposed to do will make you a technically better photographer.

PS - The only piece of equipment listed above that I own (or would own) is the camera. People who know more than I are of the opinion that Tasai chisels aren't ideal as tools (as opposed to conversation pieces). Holtey and S&S both exclusively make single-iron planes, which rules them out in my accounting.

[Mike Baker 2]

Patrick, LOL!
As for the camera, I have literally hundreds of Youtube videos up(the majority are traditional wet shaving/straight razor oriented). A good camera is something that I absolutely lust after, but it is not in the budget nor will it be for a long time. But if I should find something used in my range you can bet I'll grab it. I'm always looking.

[Warren Mickley]

Nice! I imagine those handle very easily/lightly. Out of curiosity how much longer (if any) do you think those irons were "as forged" in the 18th Century?

On an interesting note, even your pigsticker (poking into the right side of the frame) looks somewhat svelte by current standards. At least I'm guessing that's a pigsticker based on the presence of a similarly-sized mortise just below it in the frame.

Bench chisels in the Seaton Chest are around 11 1/2 inches maybe 51/4 or 5 1/2 handle and 6 inches from bolster to edge. A bit longer for wide chisels. The handles tend to be thicker for wider chisels also.

The chisels I show have longer handles to compensate for loss of blade length. Overall length is thus closer to ideal.

Mortise chisels split into "joiner's mortise chisels" and "sash mortise chisels" in the late 19th century. 18th century mortise chisels tended to be somewhat intermediary between these two types. Most mortises were through mortises in Pennsylvania frame and panel doors in the 18th century.

[Adam Schultz]

I wanted the story about the vintage looking butt chisel in the middle. It's kind of ugly, but also cool. I wonder if the good steel is still present all the way back at the base of the original chisel.

[Mike Baker 2]

I wanted the story about the vintage looking butt chisel in the middle. It's kind of ugly, but also cool. I wonder if the good steel is still present all the way back at the base of the original chisel.

On the video, or in one of these gentlemen's pics?

[ken hatch]

Here are a few
378912

Warren,

Your chisels bring a smile. They've been sharpened a few times yet still have some life left.

ken