How I make doors.

[Martin Wasner]

i posted this over on Woodweb. Somebody was asking how long it takes to build a door, I had a pretty good idea, but not an exact number so I shot a video this morning and tossed it on YouTube.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25GbUnlOHh4&t=9s

[Ted Derryberry]

Thanks for sharing that.

[Victor Robinson]

Fun look for those of us not in the biz. Thanks!

[Martin Wasner]

I'm assuming that's Mark Bolton who's on here. I'm curious what his, JR, Justin, Joe and other professional view points are. I feel it's fairly efficient for a small shop, but there's always room for improvement.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Martin that was pretty efficient in my opinion, probably even quicker if you didn't narrate ar all. Thanks for the inside look. That cutoff saw would scare the crap out of me if it didn't have the guard.

[Brad Shipton]

Great video Martin. I was following the thread on the woodweb, and I hope Mark B does chime in. I didn't quite follow the finishing he explained that the mass producers use. It sounded kind of awful. JR's comments would be interesting. I am not sure that is a small shop, but I know what you are saying.

I have been making them on the CNC because I do not have enough room for multiple shapers. It is much slower. I have reduced the passes quite a bit since this video I made for a friend that was giving me the gears. Its off point, but I thought I would share. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6DfH-wFe0

I accidentally hit the delete while on the tele.

[David Kumm]

I can attest that Martin is pretty anal about doors. A few years ago he visited my hobby shop to pick up a shaper. I had a pile of maple doors made. Because they were to be painted and I had made them over thickness to run through the WB, I was a little careless with my glue up. While the face joints were all tight and closed, some of the back side joints needed some filler. Not a lot, but you could see it on the unfinished joint. Martin looked through the pile and immediately turned the doors over and spotted some filler. He gave me a look like I used to get from my grade school English teacher. I remember that whenever I get in a hurry and think I can cheat on something that won't be seen. A little kick in the ass is a good thing even when you get old. Dave

[Darcy Warner]

Nice to see the Oakley being put to good use. Place is way too clean. Lol

[Brian Holcombe]

Beautiful shop, Martin!

[Martin Wasner]

Nice to see the Oakley being put to good use. Place is way too clean. Lol

It's a little finicky on tracking. Not sure why. I also had that dust hood fab'd a little too short, which I guess is good because you see it right away if it starts wandering up the pulley.

I've worked in dirty shops, I've worked in clean shops. I much prefer clean and organized. Good dust collection goes a long ways to achieving that. Too bad it costs a bloody fortune to run a 20hp collector all day, or I'd just let it run the whole time.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've worked in dirty shops, I've worked in clean shops. I much prefer clean and organized.

Couldn't agree more!

[Martin Wasner]

Great video Martin. I was following the thread on the woodweb, and I hope Mark B does chime in. I didn't quite follow the finishing he explained that the mass producers use. It sounded kind of awful. JR's comments would be interesting. I am not sure that is a small shop, but I know what you are saying.

I have been making them on the CNC because I do not have enough room for multiple shapers. It is much slower. I have reduced the passes quite a bit since this video I made for a friend that was giving me the gears. Its off point, but I thought I would share. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj6DfH-wFe0

I accidentally hit the delete while on the tele.

Your router was made not too far from me. I was considering a Shopsabre for a while.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for sharing that Martin!

[Brad Shipton]

Martin, it's an okay machine, but I bought one way to light. My mistake.

[Carroll Courtney]

Thanks for taking the time to post,its nice to get a peak into how the pros do make their cabinets.

[Larry Edgerton]

Nice! Shop is awesome, good show.

I kept track of my last batch of shaker doors, 33 doors took me 16 hrs, 45 minutes to finish stage. Only difference were 1" tenons, so a bit of time at the mortise machine, and solid wood flat panels. So you are kicking my............

[Jim Morgan]

Thank you for the demo and shop tour.

[jack duren]

It varies for every shop.Biggest difference is whether you do it alone or have a helper...

[Martin Wasner]

Nice! Shop is awesome, good show.

I kept track of my last batch of shaker doors, 33 doors took me 16 hrs, 45 minutes to finish stage. Only difference were 1" tenons, so a bit of time at the mortise machine, and solid wood flat panels. So you are kicking my............

Half hour. That's not bad.

If you start feeling sorry, just remember, I've got around a million bucks wrapped up in that operation. and climbing...

I'm curious how the moulder will affect things once it's up and running. Doing my sticking on it should help quite a bit. The shop I bought it from said it's real happy around 35 fpm for a feed rate. That scm shaper in the video is running at 20fpm and while delivering a very nice cut, is only hitting one edge are a time. One way to think of it, is the shaper runs at 10fpm. Basically a stick takes almost a minute to run both edges with my current setup. The moulder will be more than three times as fast as that. Assuming I can run at that 35fpm rate.

Face frames will be a similar story as I do all my S4S on that shaper as well.

The setup time on the moulder will be slightly more complicated, and that's a factor.

Another factor is whether I start getting material rough or not and using the moulder to hit the faces as well.

[Darcy Warner]

I would order skip planed stock, you can straight line one edge and then stick it in the moulder.

[Martin Wasner]

I would order skip planed stock, you can straight line one edge and then stick it in the moulder.

Blanks for mouldings that's definitely the route to go. I'm not sure on S4S and door door sticking.

Right now, evacuating chips from the dust collector is another problem that needs tackling at the moment as well. Doing it manually with not much capacity currently.

[Darcy Warner]

Blanks for mouldings that's definitely the route to go. I'm not sure on S4S and door door sticking.

Right now, evacuating chips from the dust collector is another problem that needs tackling at the moment as well. Doing it manually with not much capacity currently.

Yeah, you need a cyclone and a airlock and a transfer blower and, and, and..... lol

[Darcy Warner]

Going to get to the point you need a gang rip. You can flatten and straighten really well on a good moulder.

[Martin Wasner]

Going to get to the point you need a gang rip. You can flatten and straighten really well on a good moulder.

A gang rip is a ways off, it'll be a while before that's a bottleneck.

I'm hoping I can get that Cantek dialed in to do just that.

[Ted Derryberry]

I was kind of thinking you were cheating a little with that pre-planed frame stock. I average one door per day in batches of 6 to 10, but they are 3-0x6-8 and I start from rough sawn with glued up panels. That also includes jambs, stops, and mortising for three hinges on the door and the jamb. My shop is under $100,000.00 by a good bit too. My time is improving though as I just got a slider in December and used my shaper for the first time this past week (I was waiting on tooling). I'll knock an hour off the week in shaper setup alone going forward.

[Brad Shipton]

Martin or others, I am interested in what quantities you need to order before your suppliers will offer 2 sided planing or SLR options? Nobody ever returns my call here unless I ask for more than 1,000bdft. That does not fit in my storage container with all the other things. I chatted with Mark B one time and he orders his most of his stock that way. He has not used his planer much in quite a while, and that sounds sweet. Making blanks seems like too much time without the big machines.

[Jeff Bartley]

Thanks for sharing this Martin, your shop looks great! Tidy and bright!
One question though: if this door were in a run of doors would you let it sit after glueing before moving on to the finish prep?

[Larry Edgerton]

Half hour. That's not bad.

If you start feeling sorry, just remember, I've got around a million bucks wrapped up in that operation. and climbing...



You will probably drop that about 3-4 minutes in actual production when you are doing multiples.

[Mike Cutler]

Sweet machines. I really like that pneumatic clamping table.
One question;
How do the fasteners get hidden that were shot into the frame after glue up? Are they to be painted?

Cool video.
Definitely some envy with respects to your machines.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin or others, I am interested in what quantities you need to order before your suppliers will offer 2 sided planing or SLR options?

Usually I'm trying to get a dollar amount so they'll deliver for free. I think most of the suppliers I deal with are about $600, which unless I screwed something up isn't a problem. I haven't had anyone give me any crap about surfacing or straight edging though regardless of quantity.



One question though: if this door were in a run of doors would you let it sit after glueing before moving on to the finish prep?

Things sit for a bit typically. It doesn't take long for glue to tack up and be good for going through the widebelt though. I also don't pull the door out of the clamp until the next one is ready to go in either. That gives it a minute or two to sit with pressure on it.



I really like that pneumatic clamping table.
One question;
How do the fasteners get hidden that were shot into the frame after glue up? Are they to be painted?

I really dislike that door clamp. It doesn't mash things together hard enough for my taste. I'm running on a lower pressure here than I was at the old shop, and the performance has really fallen off. We end up putting a pipe clamp on a lot of doors because of it. I'm hoping to replace it with a JLT rotary door clamp this year. I really don't want to buy a new one as they're over $20k, but they don't come up used very often. The only one currently available that I've found is in BC. The price is reasonable, but I don't know what the international shipping requires, or costs. It's also REALLY far away.

The nails just get puttied. Whether stain grade or painted. That door just went into the dumpster after I made it. It was just for the video.

[Mark Bolton]

Super cool video. I as well am in the camp that your running far from a small shop. I could fit multiples of my shop in that space. Really nice to have a place to spread your wings.

Our process is nearly identical to yours with some equipment differences. We break down material almost identically, back fence on shaper, and so on. We do mostly natural finish and raised panel only difference. I have never been satisfied with pinning the doors and quickly out of the clamps so they sit clamped while another is assembled on the other side of the table.

As stated, there is no doubt you cut that number drastically in batch production or just in dedicated focus on making the door and not making the video. Id bet youd shave a bunch off if someone else was filming with a stop clock running.

[Mark Bolton]

Martin or others, I am interested in what quantities you need to order before your suppliers will offer 2 sided planing or SLR options? Nobody ever returns my call here unless I ask for more than 1,000bdft. That does not fit in my storage container with all the other things. I chatted with Mark B one time and he orders his most of his stock that way. He has not used his planer much in quite a while, and that sounds sweet. Making blanks seems like too much time without the big machines.

Our suppliers will SLR, S2S, S4S, on any order. Its just a per BF additional cost. We have one supplier that will not allow orders of any individual grade or species under 800'. So if your order has 3 grades of Oak they each have to be 800'. They will surface any or all of it as requested. Another supplier we only pull full and half packs from. 600+ feet in a half 1200+ in fulls, and they also have 1 1/2 packs at 1800+. Same deal on the surfacing. The third will sell a single board or a tractor and trailer load. They are the most expensive across the board even on full packs usually by at least 30% which Ive spoken with them about often when they quote full units but they swear they cant get their numbers down to the other two.

You and I have talked bout the supply issue up there. I know how hard I have had to work to get decent supply here, and have had to buy in large quantities to make anything work. I feel your pain. Seems like youve got it even harder than we do.

[Mark Bolton]

Your router was made not too far from me. I was considering a Shopsabre for a while.

We have one of their 408PRO's, 10HP HSD, 10 pos ATC and its been flawless. Their customer service through the sale and after have been nothing but great.

[Martin Wasner]

I was kind of thinking you were cheating a little with that pre-planed frame stock. I average one door per day in batches of 6 to 10, but they are 3-0x6-8 and I start from rough sawn with glued up panels. That also includes jambs, stops, and mortising for three hinges on the door and the jamb. My shop is under $100,000.00 by a good bit too. My time is improving though as I just got a slider in December and used my shaper for the first time this past week (I was waiting on tooling). I'll knock an hour off the week in shaper setup alone going forward.

Cheating is subjective. This is production where it's cheaper for me to throw away lumber than it is to mill it flat piece by piece on the jointer, then plane. Is that a better way to get straight lumber? Yes it is. But I have to make money at this too and I'm already on the pointy end of pricing. There's a lot of stuff too where bowed lumber doesn't matter. Like face frames. Throw a clamp on it and mash it down tight to the box for a couple of minutes for the glue to tack, and it's not going anywhere. So some of it that wouldn't fly for doors can be used for other things.


Pass doors are a different ball of wax than cabinet doors. much more labor intensive and the product catches much more abuse than a cabinet door.
I have wanted to try building two big cabinet doors then glueing them back to back to make a pass door. I'm not sure if that would work well or not. My mechanical room needs two big sliding doors that I haven't gotten around to building and I was going to try that as an experiment on those. It'd be kinda cool if you wanted to do two different species on each face though. Or, if you wanted to do say a square profile and flat panel on one face, and different sticking and panel on the other. Or both.


I'm a big fan of tools having basically one use. No set up, just walk up to it and do what you need to do. I've got four tablesaws in the shop, (five, if you count the rip saw), three of them are dedicated to one job each. One for ripping plywood, one for dado-ing sheetstock, one for doing nothing but plowing drawer parts for bottoms. The fourth is for the benches and does whatever needs to be done. We've got six shapers, and I wouldn't mind at least one more. Cabinets take a lot of tools which take up a lot of space. The building cost me almost a $500k, and there's over $500k in equipment if it burns down. I'm thrifty and shop for a lot of used equipment, but the cost to replace it doesn't change if something happens.

[Martin Wasner]

We have one of their 408PRO's, 10HP HSD, 10 pos ATC and its been flawless. Their customer service through the sale and after have been nothing but great.


They are literally 25 minutes from my shop. The proximity was a huge appeal if I had a problem. They didn't seem real responsive though when I said when it goes down, I want somebody on my doorstep in an hour. So, not for me. I don't think I fit their demographic and will likely be going with an Andi/Giben router instead.

That's a big chunk of money though. eek...

I despise debt, but I'm kicking around either leasing or borrowing to get a CNC in place sooner. It's really hard to save up $150k.

[Brad Shipton]

Mark, I think you guys just have better options in the US. We are not a big enough market, so the players in the wood world get to pick and choose. I did get prices from Advantage to do exactly what I want, and they still email asking to supply me lumber. My local guys would never do that in a million years. I have a 1,000 bdft bundle of 5/4 cherry coming and it was basically, take the whole thing or nothing. They almost laughed when I asked about having it prepped. I really like buying in the US because of the customer service and options. It doesn't hurt that you guys live near the area where my wood comes from too I suppose.

Sounds like a nice CNC Martin. That must be a tank of a machine. If I could ever afford a real one I would like a CR Onsrud Panel Mate.

[Martin Wasner]

Super cool video. I as well am in the camp that your running far from a small shop. I could fit multiples of my shop in that space. Really nice to have a place to spread your wings.

It's a good sized building, but it's still a small shop. It's been just me for the last month and a half in here. I've got a new guy starting on Monday, and should probably add another guy, but I'll pull my hair out strand by strand if I have to train two guys at once. I'm fortunate in that some other good/lucky decisions have lead to me not needing much income from the shop, so I dump as much as I can back into the business. The seed money from my building came from paying cash for a hunk of crap house when the market bottomed out, remodeling it way more than I should have, and selling it for almost $100k in profit. I have a very modest home, don't have any expensive toys anymore, and all my vehicles are old. (My wife has a brand new car, but that's her problem) So that's how I can afford the building I've got. Though it is really expensive still. The mortgage, taxes, insurance, insurance, and utilities cost me about $7k a month. (I am on a very aggressive payment schedule as well though) That's a bit much for one guy to swallow.

Moral of the story, I'm trying to grow aggressively, and have done my best the last five years to set myself up for success on that front.

My old shop was 2500 sq/ft. And most of the equipment that's in here, was in there. It was a phone booth. It is amazing how much more profitable, and efficient this place is compared to my old shop. Even simple things like having a forklift and not unloading trucks and racking material by hand is huge. If I have a lot of ripping or cutting of sheet stock to do, I just pull the bunk out of the rack and plop it down right next to the saw. I really wish I would've done it sooner, though I'm not sure the timing would've been correct any sooner.



Our process is nearly identical to yours with some equipment differences. We break down material almost identically, back fence on shaper, and so on. We do mostly natural finish and raised panel only difference. I have never been satisfied with pinning the doors and quickly out of the clamps so they sit clamped while another is assembled on the other side of the table.

That's one of reasons I want to go with a rotary clamp. I figure they'll have at least seven minutes of sitting time, and probably more like ten, with clamp pressure on them with that setup.




As stated, there is no doubt you cut that number drastically in batch production or just in dedicated focus on making the door and not making the video. Id bet youd shave a bunch off if someone else was filming with a stop clock running.

I figure about two minutes could be wiped out of that process doing it as you say. I wasn't hustling. I was carrying a phone around. I left my cutlist scribbled on a block of wood on the pop up saw as well which added 15-20 seconds.

[Brian Holcombe]

Martin, Just curious about the glue up aspect. Is radio frequency glue curing something you’ve considered?

I sold furniture for a number of years and one if our solid wood producers was always on about their radio frequency glue curing machine (I don’t know why they included this in their sales info, it must have been expensive enough that they wanted to show it off). I don’t do production work, but I thought it was pretty cool.

[Martin Wasner]

Sounds like a nice CNC Martin. That must be a tank of a machine. If I could ever afford a real one I would like a CR Onsrud Panel Mate.


This (http://www.giben.com/product/g4-evo/) is the one that's currently at the top of my wishlist.

Just the router is $110k.
But I need different software than what I currently run, another $25k.
Tooling will probably be $5k to start with.
Another vacuum pump since plywood is basically like throwing a sponge on the table and trying to suck it down.
Training, since I have zero clue what I'm doing.
Rigging will cost probably $2k
I'm not sure what shipping will be, but dead minimum I'd guess a grand
and a little bit of wiggle room so I don't panic when things cost more.

Then there's the little things. Wiring, which there's already a pipe in the rack for it. Dust collection modification. Running air to it. (Getting a CNC is the whole reason I bought the compressor I did since they need clean, cool, dry air. And a lot of it)

I process roughly 400 sheets a year currently for boxwork not including backs. It should take my machining time from about 1 hour per sheet down to about 15 minutes per sheet saving me about 300 hours per year at current production rates. That's huge. Using my baseline $100/hour per man target gross rate, that's $30k per year, which would give me a five year payback. Shorter if growth takes place.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, Just curious about the glue up aspect. Is radio frequency glue curing something you’ve considered?


I don't know much about it, and I haven't been exposed to it. I think JR does some RF gluing, but I'm not sure if that's for panels, or door assembly. I kinda feel it's for panels.

There's some wacky stuff out there. The shop I bought my dust collector from is huge and built box cabinets for Menards. Like 50-60 people per shift, on three shifts. They would do runs of pallets of doors that were all the same size and had a specialized clamp that not only clamped the door, but nailed it as well. The gal that was feeding it was keeping a pretty good pace just to keep up with that clamp. I don't know if that was RF glued in that scenario or not. I'm kinda betting it was. I don't think that particular setup would work in a custom enviroment where out of 100 doors, you might have to adjust it 40 times. Whereas they were running probably 500 or a 1000 doors that were the same size. It kinda looked like a pain to setup for the next run.


They had two guys feeding defecting saws too. That was pretty awesome to watch. You mark on the rip with a piece of chalk what needs to be cut out, and the machine scans and chops it to lengths. An 8' stick of material became parts in about 20 seconds from the point the operator picked it up to when the parts started falling into bins. It also automatically sorted the parts. Wild. Thats a different game though.

[Darcy Warner]

Just add a facer belted to a planer.

[David Kumm]

When you replace people with machinery that is debt financed you must have growth or at least a good economy. People costs can be reduced faster than monthly payments when things slow down. depreciation rules favor purchasing over leasing but if you front load the depreciation there will be a cash flow problem in the out years when the depr runs out so you are paying tax and principal at the same time. DAve

[Martin Wasner]

When you replace people with machinery that is debt financed you must have growth or at least a good economy. People costs can be reduced faster than monthly payments when things slow down. depreciation rules favor purchasing over leasing but if you front load the depreciation there will be a cash flow problem in the out years when the depr runs out so you are paying tax and principal at the same time. DAve


It's a gamble if I'm not paying cash. I'm hoping it opens some other doors and I can keep the thing running all day long doing outside work. There's lots of small shops around that I can machine their box parts with a cnc cheaper than they can. Plus it opens some doors for my business as there's some work I just won't take on because it's currently not profitable. Like closest systems. They're cheap to make with excellent margins if equip'd correctly.

[David Kumm]

You are right about closet systems. I can't believe what is charged for crap partial box stuff. Cheaper to have custom made when you factor quality. The doors you looked at were all made for closet cabinets. About the only things I make for myself that I figure I get some return for my time on. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Martin, your setup looks very efficient to me. It’s been a long while since we did any kitchens but I think we were around 40 to 50 minutes per shaker door to finish ready. We were making 1” thick, 5/8” thick solid panel that got a recess cut on the back so panel is flush with the back of the door and double doweling the corners. We also match grain across a run of doors and up on tall cabinetry. That takes a little time. We started doweling shaker doors early on after having some doors split at the joint if slammed too hard. This was a issue with VG fir. Our Hofmann dowel borer is fast and this only takes a couple minutes per door.

You have to build to your market price though and what you are doing is industry standard. I think in the custom world though you have to be careful in getting too efficient. It can be a race to the bottom if you are just competing on price.

I think I saw a moulder in the video. We sometimes would put the groove in at the S4S process since square edge doors are easy to cope after the sticking cut. That would cut 2 shaper passes off. We also would sometimes put the groove in with an adjustable groover on the shaper after S4S because the edges are very clean coming off the Tersa heads. This is how we do square edge house doors. I don’t do the groove on them at the moulder so as we can look at crown and such before picking a face. The adjustable groover setup is easy because you are just feeding against the fence and getting a clean chip free cut with the knickers on the groover. Profiled doors are of course a different story.

Early on we had a bunch of dedicated shapers with Weaver jigs. Most of the time they just sat collecting dust because every job was different and designers and homeowners in our area want something different than the mainstream cabinet door. I have been happy with the two quick change shaper concept for many years now. At least for the type of work we do. We always let doors set overnight to avoid sunken joints. The local cabinet door company has a RF setup so they can process right away.

Your kicking my butt on time. I started machining 10- 3’ X 8’ X 2 3/4” thick fold slide doors a couple days ago from already laminated and S4S blanks and just got to assembly late yesterday!:)

[Joe Calhoon]

When you replace people with machinery that is debt financed you must have growth or at least a good economy. People costs can be reduced faster than monthly payments when things slow down. depreciation rules favor purchasing over leasing but if you front load the depreciation there will be a cash flow problem in the out years when the depr runs out so you are paying tax and principal at the same time. DAve

That is wise advice Dave. I have seen a lot of large company’s try to solve people issues with automation. It usually does not work.

[Brad Shipton]

I have priced out smaller versions of the pieces you are talking about, but I am just a silly little builder that has wine tastes and a beer salary. Even on my machine I can crank out a typical base box in 20min (drawer boxes without shelf holes), but I am using the Lamello Cabineo connectors to speed up my machining time. Half blind mortises add a bit of time, and I guess that is what you would want. On that beast you will have no problem achieving your goal. You will be able to crank out dovetail drawers in about 5min a piece too if you want. The software part is key considering how much custom work you do. These machines are dumb unless they have gcode, and it does take a bit of time for that. How much time depends on the software and your product line. If you had standard parts, and the market demand, you could easily crank your sheet count up to somewhere around 20 -40/d. James McGrew is doing more than that with his machines.

I wouldn't buy a big starter package of tools until you gain some familiarity with your machine. I would get all the HSK holders, and have someone like Vortex set you up with some bits for sheet goods. It is really easy for them to load up an unsuspecting buyer with a whole pile of things you may never really need.

You will quickly grow tired of the thickness variances in your sheet goods. Flat goods that never vary much in thickness are much easier to work with. Trying to work with a machine that can cut to within 0.005" and use materials that can vary by 0.025" or more is not a great fit.

What type of table top are you getting? I am certain Andi will offer something like the Nemi grid system, and that can be very handy if you need to make any custom wood parts. Pods work very well for small parts, and Nemi, Better Vacuum Cups and a host of others sell awesome ones. Even with that 20hp vacuum you will have problems holding down small parts at the speeds/cutter dia you will want to cut. Dedicated fixtures work too, but one can quickly end up with a pile of them all over the place. Pods fit neatly into a box.

The dedicated programmer Mark mentions below is a great idea. The number of machines I have looked at on auctions that are greater than 10years old and have less than 400hours of use is a testament to how much many underestimate the time to create gcode.

Oops, went off topic. Sorry. Back to door production.

[Mark Bolton]

It's a gamble if I'm not paying cash. I'm hoping it opens some other doors and I can keep the thing running all day long doing outside work. There's lots of small shops around that I can machine their box parts with a cnc cheaper than they can. Plus it opens some doors for my business as there's some work I just won't take on because it's currently not profitable. Like closest systems. They're cheap to make with excellent margins if equip'd correctly.

My only advice for you if your are going to stay lean and mean (suprised to hear youve been running that size shop alone) is that you had better include in your budget for the CNC a dedicated programmer (either in-house or contract) and a man on the machine. The programming and learning curve on the CNC is large and even though the software sales people want to make it seem like your dragging and dropping a kitchen full of cabs into the software and out to the cnc in 30 minutes, its simply not the case unless your building production, no frills, cabs. We are processing panels for another shop and nearly every job is different, angled front cabs, different machining templates for office work, closet work, kitchen work, and so on. There is A LOT to getting the CNC to a point where you just toss panels on and walk away. Tool wear, material variables, and so on.

As Im sure you know, software really only gets proficient when your in it all day every day. If your programming a day here and a day there, or a couple hours here and there, it takes 20 times longer for it all to "set in" and become second nature.

Where your processing panels for yourself you'll be able to set your standard and run but the odd balls that come in here and there really slow things down

[jack duren]

There currently looking at two RF machines and use a Kentwood gang rip that still needs to be hooked up. Cost to hook up the Kentwood is $8k..A

The comments seem confusing on here. Small shops spending a lot of money on high end equipment. The building I work in is over a 100,000+sqft and they have multiple buildings. The planer/molder is over $45k...

All this equipment is for a company turning about $10 million a year looking to turn another 3 million more this year alone from other work..

They added another 350k a year in office help just to manage this...

I'd come work with one of you guys if you were closer. The company I work for has been on four day weeks for over two months. Getting bigger isn't always best...This is the second woodworking factory I have work for in 34 years. Both the same problem. Too big and salary is healthier than hourly..

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, your setup looks very efficient to me. It’s been a long while since we did any kitchens but I think we were around 40 to 50 minutes per shaker door to finish ready. We were making 1” thick, 5/8” thick solid panel that got a recess cut on the back so panel is flush with the back of the door and double doweling the corners.

I'm guessing adding a glue'd up panel would add roughly ten minutes to the door, if it were in a batch. Grain matching through different doors would add some time as well. The dude on woodweb was originally asking about raised panel, but I didn't feel like spending the time or material for a door that literally went out to the dumpster a couple minutes after the video ended. (Friday is when the garbage man cometh)



You have to build to your market price though and what you are doing is industry standard. I think in the custom world though you have to be careful in getting too efficient. It can be a race to the bottom if you are just competing on price.

I work is some expensive homes, but not bonkers expensive where it's a blank check. It's still pretty competitive. I deal almost solely with contractors, but when dealing with people one on one, they have one of two responses: "How do you sleep at night charging that much?" and "huh, that's less than I expected" It's really tough to get a grasp on what the market will bear. Cabinetry is a weird business as there is such a wide spectrum of what is available. It's tough to compare apples to apples. I do jobs no two man shop has any business doing, and we crank them out pretty quickly. I've been trying to build the shop itself up so I can add the people. My old shop wouldn't hold more than two people, too many pieces overlapped one another. I do loose a lot of sleep though trying to wrap my head around things. I told a friend the other day, I made $15,000 last year, and it only cost me $250,000 to make that....



I think I saw a moulder in the video. We sometimes would put the groove in at the S4S process since square edge doors are easy to cope after the sticking cut. That would cut 2 shaper passes off. We also would sometimes put the groove in with an adjustable groover on the shaper after S4S because the edges are very clean coming off the Tersa heads. This is how we do square edge house doors. I don’t do the groove on them at the moulder so as we can look at crown and such before picking a face. The adjustable groover setup is easy because you are just feeding against the fence and getting a clean chip free cut with the knickers on the groover. Profiled doors are of course a different story.

Yep, I just got that baby last week. I haven't wrapped my head around how it's going to sit in the shop. It's going to displace the shaper that I currently do my sticking and S4S on, but I still need that shaper for short runs and things that don't physically fit in the moulder. IE, too short, or too wide.
-The plan is to get Tersa heads for the moulder with the dovetailed pockets to add small profile knives.
-Getting dedicated heads for the currently three door sticking profiles I run.
-And later start building an arsenal of heads for moulding.
At some point that machine will as well need a full time person running it, but I'm a long ways off from that. I bought it because I couldn't find a decent S4S machine for what I wanted to spend. For just a little bit more I got a much heavier machine, with better spindles, and more capability. and I have no clue how to run the thing. lol




Early on we had a bunch of dedicated shapers with Weaver jigs. Most of the time they just sat collecting dust because every job was different and designers and homeowners in our area want something different than the mainstream cabinet door. I have been happy with the two quick change shaper concept for many years now. At least for the type of work we do. We always let doors set overnight to avoid sunken joints. The local cabinet door company has a RF setup so they can process right away.


A few years a go I homogenized all of my insert tooling for doors. Same major/minor diameters, same offsets. Changing profiles now takes as long as it takes to crack the nut, swap heads, and tighten the nut. My little home made out board fence has worked surprisingly well and we crank the spindle height to a number for either the straight cutter or the sticking cutter. I've got a spare SAC shaper that we use for anything miscellaneous. I'd like to get my hands on a tilting shaper as well at some point so I can load knives from the moulder into a corrugated head for things like curved crown. It would just open up some capabilities.

[Mel Fulks]

I'm skeptical about it being cheaper to throw away bowed wood. It's certainly a new idea. The standard has always been to hire help that could do it ,or quickly learn to do it.
We had a local company that opened saying that were going to be so successful that all the other cabinet shops would
close. A number of professionals put money into it and lost it. They offered too many options and had to disgard a lot of wood that had holes drilled in the wrong place ,etc. $20, 000,000 was lost in a 2 or 3 years.

[Martin Wasner]

I have priced out smaller versions of the pieces you are talking about, but I am just a silly little builder that has wine tastes and a beer salary. Even on my machine I can crank out a typical base box in 20min (drawer boxes without shelf holes), but I am using the Lamello Cabineo connectors to speed up my machining time. Half blind mortises add a bit of time, and I guess that is what you would want. On that beast you will have no problem achieving your goal. You will be able to crank out dovetail drawers in about 5min a piece too if you want. The software part is key considering how much custom work you do. These machines are dumb unless they have gcode, and it does take a bit of time for that. How much time depends on the software and your product line. If you had standard parts, and the market demand, you could easily crank your sheet count up to somewhere around 20 -40/d. James McGrew is doing more than that with his machines.

I wouldn't buy a big starter package of tools until you gain some familiarity with your machine. I would get all the HSK holders, and have someone like Vortex set you up with some bits for sheet goods. It is really easy for them to load up an unsuspecting buyer with a whole pile of things you may never really need.

You will quickly grow tired of the thickness variances in your sheet goods. Flat goods that never vary much in thickness are much easier to work with. Trying to work with a machine that can cut to within 0.005" and use materials that can vary by 0.025" or more is not a great fit.

What type of table top are you getting? I am certain Andi will offer something like the Nemi grid system, and that can be very handy if you need to make any custom wood parts. Pods work very well for small parts, and Nemi, Better Vacuum Cups and a host of others sell awesome ones. Even with that 20hp vacuum you will have problems holding down small parts at the speeds/cutter dia you will want to cut. Dedicated fixtures work too, but one can quickly end up with a pile of them all over the place. Pods fit neatly into a box.

The dedicated programmer Mark mentions below is a great idea. The number of machines I have looked at on auctions that are greater than 10years old and have less than 400hours of use is a testament to how much many underestimate the time to create gcode.

Oops, went off topic. Sorry. Back to door production.


No dovetail drawers on the CNC. I've got an automatic dovetailer for that. And if the time comes where I do want a CNC'd drawer box, I'm buying a separate machine for that. It's like using a Ferrari to tow a trailer. Don't beat the expensive tools doing simple tasks. Same reason I have a Subaru and a truck. I can throw away two Subarus for each pickup, and the maintenance is cheaper. (Also why I'm still driving a 18 year old pickup.)

Material variance will be much happier to deal with on the cnc than a tablesaw. I'm machining from the wrong face. Plywood is horrible. I've seen sheets that vary almost .060". It causes a lot of minor problems. At least my remaining material will be spot on with the cnc. I don't flush out face frames because of the horrid tolerances of sheet stock.

Phenolic grid on the table top. I plan on gasketing off the remaining table and just doing a spoil board for sheets, then using the BVC in the remaining two feet of the table for weird small stuff. Cabinetvision or Alphacam has this feature where you do all of you machining on one face, square up a corner, flip it and machine the other side, then finish cutting your parts so you're not dealing with individual parts going onto pods after the fact.

I've got a buddy who is an extremely talented woodworker. Way better than I am. I tried like hell to get him to come work for me. He's got a ton of CNC experience and I was planning on leaning on his talents to get the thing up and running. I really want to make this a reality next year. My customers are growing, I've got way more work than I can handle even with two guys, and I need to keep up better. I just can't bury myself in debt to do it. Growing a business is fricking hard.

Don't sweat getting off topic. You have no clue how much I love discussing this stuff and threads like this drag the pro's out of the woodwork as it were.

[Mark Bolton]

There currently looking at two RF machines and use a Kentwood gang rip that still needs to be hooked up. Cost to hook up the Kentwood is $8k..A

The comments seem confusing on here. Small shops spending a lot of money on high end equipment. The building I work in is over a 100,000+sqft and they have multiple buildings. The planer/molder is over $45k...

All this equipment is for a company turning about $10 million a year looking to turn another 3 million more this year alone from other work..

They added another 350k a year in office help just to manage this...

I'd come work with one of you guys if you were closer. The company I work for has been on four day weeks for over two months. Getting bigger isn't always best...This is the second woodworking factory I have work for in 34 years. Both the same problem. Too big and salary is healthier than hourly..

I think this is the mindset I am in. First off, my market is simply not going to support a shop that is even "as small (chuckling)" as Martin thinks his shop is. There is a shop a good ways away running tractor and trailer loads of Melamine commercial cabs weekly. I suppose if the money is good and you have access to help, its fine. In my area the access to labor is virtually non existent. And even at reasonable wages people cant afford to commute 30-45 minute to and from work. Been covered here before. Low overhead and off the radar is nice but access to labor is zilch. That said, I hear the same thing from the metro areas (if any around me could be considered that).

In our area we would have to cover a sales territory in the range of perhaps a 100 mile radius to support a shop even the size of Martin's. The Home Depot and Walmart fungus has pervaded all the way into the million plus homes in this area. Two small shops went down last fall leaving two (of which we are one) and another larger shop. Demographics is everything.

Off track but my point was, in our market being small and nimble/dynamic is the only way. We may be running molding packages at one point, a small commercial melamine job at another, an odd ball custom wine cellar another, kitchen cabs.. and so on.

[Martin Wasner]

As Im sure you know, software really only gets proficient when your in it all day every day. If your programming a day here and a day there, or a couple hours here and there, it takes 20 times longer for it all to "set in" and become second nature.


I'm on Cabnetware right now. Cabinetvision isn't much different luckily and I know my way around it really well. I plan on buying the software six months before the machine just so I can get all the parameters straighten out. That took a while with the software I've got, and it's not set up to go anywhere but onto paper.

[Martin Wasner]

I think this is the mindset I am in. First off, my market is simply not going to support a shop that is even "as small (chuckling)" as Martin thinks his shop is. There is a shop a good ways away running tractor and trailer loads of Melamine commercial cabs weekly. I suppose if the money is good and you have access to help, its fine. In my area the access to labor is virtually non existent. And even at reasonable wages people cant afford to commute 30-45 minute to and from work. Been covered here before. Low overhead and off the radar is nice but access to labor is zilch. That said, I hear the same thing from the metro areas (if any around me could be considered that).

In our area we would have to cover a sales territory in the range of perhaps a 100 mile radius to support a shop even the size of Martin's. The Home Depot and Walmart fungus has pervaded all the way into the million plus homes in this area. Two small shops went down last fall leaving two (of which we are one) and another larger shop. Demographics is everything.

Off track but my point was, in our market being small and nimble/dynamic is the only way. We may be running molding packages at one point, a small commercial melamine job at another, an odd ball custom wine cellar another, kitchen cabs.. and so on.

My shop is in nowhere. Finding people is tough, even at $20+ hour starting. I offered my one buddy $33/hr and it didn't take, a lot of it had to do with the 30 minute commute.

I travel about 50 miles on average for jobs. Kind of a pain in the rear, but I've got one coming up, $75k just in cabinets. No install, no finishing. I'll have to drive there probably ten times over the course of the job between measuring, double checking measurements, delivery(s), and running stuff up that was missed/damaged/whatever, then a day or two of final adjustment and the like. We don't set fronts on inset until after the cabs have been set on big jobs.

Demographics is everything. I want the neighborhoods where people spend $600k for a tear down and build a $1-2m house. That's my bread and butter. I was just chatting with one of my builders yesterday about it. There's no point in working for people like me. People like me don't have any money.

[jack duren]

I think this is the mindset I am in. First off, my market is simply not going to support a shop that is even "as small (chuckling)" as Martin thinks his shop is. There is a shop a good ways away running tractor and trailer loads of Melamine commercial cabs weekly. I suppose if the money is good and you have access to help, its fine. In my area the access to labor is virtually non existent. And even at reasonable wages people cant afford to commute 30-45 minute to and from work. Been covered here before. Low overhead and off the radar is nice but access to labor is zilch. That said, I hear the same thing from the metro areas (if any around me could be considered that).

In our area we would have to cover a sales territory in the range of perhaps a 100 mile radius to support a shop even the size of Martin's. The Home Depot and Walmart fungus has pervaded all the way into the million plus homes in this area. Two small shops went down last fall leaving two (of which we are one) and another larger shop. Demographics is everything.

Off track but my point was, in our market being small and nimble/dynamic is the only way. We may be running molding packages at one point, a small commercial melamine job at another, an odd ball custom wine cellar another, kitchen cabs.. and so on.

I get it...I remember 10years ago on these forums. Different discussion..

I personally travel 46 miles one way just to be a full time furniture maker. I'm considering taking less pay and back to the cabinet residential or commercial to drive less.

The game has changed since I started in 83...Too bad the skill set has dropped with it.

[Larry Edgerton]

Martin or others, I am interested in what quantities you need to order before your suppliers will offer 2 sided planing or SLR options? Nobody ever returns my call here unless I ask for more than 1,000bdft. That does not fit in my storage container with all the other things. I chatted with Mark B one time and he orders his most of his stock that way. He has not used his planer much in quite a while, and that sounds sweet. Making blanks seems like too much time without the big machines.

When I was doing just cabinets I tried that a few times, but it never worked for me. My planer does an almost sanded finish that is absolutely right on the money all the time, center to all my other setups, and less sanding because everything was tight with no tearout. Prepping stock is my second least favorite job after sanding, but it just had to be processed in house in my world. Won't say it can't work, just not for me.

[Larry Edgerton]

That is wise advice Dave. I have seen a lot of large company’s try to solve people issues with automation. It usually does not work.

I'm old, and have basically been in business my whole life and can say there is some truth to your statement. I have an aversion to debt, and there has been many companies come around since I started that go into debt to make mediocre boxes through automation. They kick my butt until the first downturn then have an auction. As it stands now I am definitely the oldest company around here.:p

[Mark Bolton]

They didn't seem real responsive though when I said when it goes down, I want somebody on my doorstep in an hour. .

I have no idea what it would cost to have a tech at my doorstep in an hour but I dont think regardless of the size of my investment anyone all the way up into the Biesse, Onsrud, world would ever meet that commitment unless I had my own private Gulfstream and a landing strip out back lol.

Ive never tested after hours support but your definitely smart to consider a more robust machine that is less apt to have problems in the first place. That said I somewhat wanted to be in a sweet spot between all the bells and whistles and a down and dirty machine with little to go wrong. I somewhat liken it to all these new cars that are sweet as pie for the first few months or years but unless your in a position to trade them off every 2 years (max) all those gee-gaws start to ding, buzz, lights are blinking on the dash, and so on. Im too small for all that $2500 for a tech to come out when your out of warranty.

The one place where I think I may lose my own battle on that would be a Tesla or some other form of self driving car. As much driving as I do commuting and selling/servicing I could get MILES of paperwork done if I didnt have to drive. Though with labor costs around here maybe for the price of a Tesla I could hire a chauffeur for a year or two.

[J.R. Rutter]

Fun video! I've thought about doing an edit showing a few seconds of each step.

Look at Doucet door clamps - better than JLT.

RF panel clamp is nice and fast. Ours is set to 40 seconds, but the exposed glue takes normal time to dry so handling time isn't much different. But no hand clamps and less floor space than a reel. JLT type clamp rack would be another option, but the RF clamp flattens nicely as well.

I have run sticking on the moulder, but prefer to be able to flip sticks around at the crosscut station as best face can change end-to-end in a stick.

Briefly:

Order 15/16 H&M stock
Straight line rip to 3/16" over width for sticking blanks, and rip panel stock if needed
S4S to 1/16" over width on moulder
Crosscut with tiger stop calibrated to 0.025" over, flip sticks around for crown up and/or best face
Cope 3-4 at a time, removing 0.012" from each end of the rails
Run sticking butting parts end-to-end to exact width
Park cart in front of door clamp
Veneered panels cut on table saw (uniform veneer seams running vertically across doors, and uniform pattern running horizontally across doors)
If needed, quick run through shaper for a back cut to bring down thickness to fit groove exactly (like 60 FPM feed, invisible after assembly)
Orbital panels at downdraft table with sander hooked up to vacuum
Stuff foam panel spacers during assembly into JLT rotary clamp
No pins, glue sets fast
Widebelt next day
Bump ends to flush up joints, brings length to exact dimension ~0.012" each end needed to flush up
Run any edge details per job on shaper
My customers are cabinet shops, so they handle ROS and hinge boring

For solid wood panels:
Run panel stock S4S to expose any hidden defects and get edges 90 degrees and parallel
X-cut 1" over length
RF glue panel staves
Ideally let sit overnight before sizing
Size on table saw
Plane both faces
Widebelt both faces
Shape with best face to front
Orbital any portion that will not be flush with frame before assembly

I have an old Voorwood shape and sand that I may put into the mix just for door edges.

[Joe Calhoon]

I'm old, and have basically been in business my whole life and can say there is some truth to your statement. I have an aversion to debt, and there has been many companies come around since I started that go into debt to make mediocre boxes through automation. They kick my butt until the first downturn then have an auction. As it stands now I am definitely the oldest company around here.:p

Almost the same here Larry. When I started in 76 there was really no custom woodworking market here. Then when things took off in the mid 80s a lot of shops moved in, especially in the latr 90s. All the new ones went away in the big turndown. A while ago on wood web someone noted that in his area over the last 30 years a lot of cabinet shops came and went but its the same plumbers and electricians still in business. Its the same here.

I believe the cabinet market is a lot tougher now than years past especially with the semi custom cabinets getting better at the lower price points.

Me, at this stage I just want interesting jobs with no time pressure.

[jack duren]

It picked up in the KC area. Everybody got bigger. Smaller shops survived. The skill level has lessened.I'm considered an antique. Us cowboys are about gone...

[Mel Fulks]

It picked up in the KC area. Everybody got bigger. Smaller shops survived. The skill level has lessened.I'm considered an antique. Us cowboys are about gone...
And one of these days kitchen scientists will demand the return of METAL cabinets. Their research will show them to be more re -Cycleable . And that we need some new dumps for the old wood stuff.

[Mark Bolton]

Ive had the exact opposite experience with getting material surfaced from our 3 suppliers. I posted a while back with photos of the first unit of material for a job with 4/4 Cherry. We brought in two 1800+ BF units, S2S to 13/16" and SLR1E. All of them will say when you order S2S that they only have "roughing planers". The material in the pack I posted pictures of was so smooth and free of tearout that if we wanted to roll the dice we could have probably gone straight to 180 out of the pack on the face side. Easily to 180 after we ripped and edged on the shaper. We however spray waterborne which means it all needs to go through the sander. But every board (and there were boards in both packs that were 18" plus) was as good as we get off our planer and we didnt have to empty the DC a single time.

Handling chips and sharpening knives are two of the biggest money losers for us. Letting them feed the chips into their boilers to dry wood is far better than us heaping them up and burning them.

[Mel Fulks]

Mark, I remember the pics....fine material. The worst wood (and everything else in shops) is bought by employed "buyers". They often buy lousy materials and ask for big salary increases for their ability to find cheap stuff.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, I remember the pics....fine material. The worst wood (and everything else in shops) is bought by employed "buyers". They often buy lousy materials and ask for big salary increases for their ability to find cheap stuff.

Yeah, well the sucky thing is the final fill in order we had to bring in (we were short a few hundred feet so just brought in a 647' pack of RGH Sel/Btr from the only supplier that had any) is basically dog "poop" (for the puritan mods that wont let me abbreviate the "S" word).. AND we are left surfacing in house which I absolutely despise.

Surfacing your own material is just a full on dead loser for us.

[Larry Edgerton]

The skill level has lessened.I'm considered an antique. Us cowboys are about gone...

I am definitely an dinosaur myself. I am too old and stubborn to change my standards to suite the flighty millennials, but have enough old school customers to get by as long as I can do this.

And, like Joe I am in it for the sport these days, I only take jobs that entertain me. I am building a house, inside a building, that will be hauled out and set with cranes on a pedestal right now, serious steel structure, superinsulated, with steel and brass trim inserts in the casing and cabinets. About $600 a sq. ft., but interesting and challenging.

[Mark Bolton]

I am building a house, inside a building, that will be hauled out and set with cranes on a pedestal right now, serious steel structure, superinsulated, with steel and brass trim inserts in the casing and cabinets. About $600 a sq. ft., but interesting and challenging.

I for one was eager to see the drawings. That one sounded like a SUPER fun job.

[David Utterback]

Great video. Thanks for letting us amateurs peer into the world of professional production.

[Martin Wasner]

Mark, around here most of the time when I want material surfaced, it goes through a planer/sander. I'm pretty sure they're sanding with 100g too.

Some places though, you can tell they haven't changed blades in the rip saw since Clinton was in office, and the planer has done 100k feet since the last sharpening.

[Martin Wasner]

JR, why the .024" oversized on your rails? That seems like an odd number? Or do you just have the fence set to cut strong even though you're punching in the rail length?

I take a 1/16" off of each end when I cope, just because adding an 1/8 to most numbers is easy.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, around here most of the time when I want material surfaced, it goes through a planer/sander. I'm pretty sure they're sanding with 100g too.

Some places though, you can tell they haven't changed blades in the rip saw since Clinton was in office, and the planer has done 100k feet since the last sharpening.

Hence my quote about waterbourne. I dont know that Ive ever gotten a stick of material that went through any form of sander. Its SLR (which is fast and rough) and a two sided planer (likely with onboard sharpening). You can easily see early on in a load of material that has been run through a sh*t set of knives. The linear defects show themselves straight away. That said, the one mill that we pull from most commonly doesnt suffer from this. We still sand to be safe but again running waterborne puts us at greater risk for headache.

What we each have availbility to locally changes the dynamic drastically.

[Brad Shipton]

It is nice to see all the pro's sharing. I always get annoyed over sizing doors, and then final sizing later, but I see that's how it is done. I got a CCW cutter head for my setup to try. It makes no sense what so ever considering the time, but I am an odd duck.

Larry, it was that darn Mark guy that got the idea of prepped stock rolling around my head after I saw that nice pile of lumber on his trailer. I annoyed a bunch of suppliers and then gave up for now. I think finishing is the worst, sanding next, then stock prep. I suspect you ship things for finishing. My list of finishers is even worse than my lumber suppliers, so...

Martin, that will be a great help having a friend to help. You have a great plan, and it will be nice to see it when you get it all set up.

[Jim Becker]

Brad, in many respects, it now makes sense to me about oversizing and if you have a nice oscillating sander like Martin's, it makes it very easy to fine tune the fit. It's easier to remove material than it is to rebuild something that's too small! :)

[Mark Bolton]

One of the things I picked up on in Martins video is how engaged in the process he is and how he presents the part to the operation. Caught my attention at the edges sander. Simply the way he presents his hands to the work and the sander you almost get a feel the instant you pick up a door that its thick, thin, fat on one end or the other. In my world that level of intuitivety is well.. zip. His hand placement at attentiveness to even width on an OSS is clear.

Its hard to find people who are as vested in your process as you are. I cant fathom someone turning down 33$ an hour in my world to make sawdust. That is just plain wild.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, I suspect that investing in the process like you point out results in great consistency which is truly important toward quality work.

[Martin Wasner]

Its hard to find people who are as vested in your process as you are. I cant fathom someone turning down 33$ an hour in my world to make sawdust. That is just plain wild.

I'm up against a wall. I offered to split profits through the end of the year with him. No dice. He'd probably make close to $100k if the year stays on track. Which it looks like it will. I've got more work in the first quarter than I did in half of last year, and they keep stacking up on the schedule.

[Mark Bolton]

Mark, I suspect that investing in the process like you point out results in great consistency which is truly important toward quality work.


May be so, but I think the vast majority of us cant see why the individuals given the opportunity dont run with it lol.

[Darcy Warner]

My supplier sends material through a double facer (think they are running a Porter) which is belt fed to a double Buss. It's flat and parallel, then to a rip saw, followed by planer or moulder depending on what is going on.

I would love to add a 18" or 24" facer.

[David Kumm]

For those of us not in the business but interested in efficiency:

What grits do you typically use in the ROS? What size downdraft table?

Same for grits in WB and edge sander ? Preferences in belts? Is WB single or double head, and does the display stay comparable to the thicknesser pretty reliably and do you try not to change grits to muck up the numbers?

Any preference for door clamp table? I don't do enough door and frames to justify but when I get into a project it is always what I wish for.

Do you find that veneer panels have enough thickness to sand out the line that seems to show up during the last stage? Preference for veneer panels that look the best? I do little in flat panel and make my own veneer when I do but that adds about a year to the process.

Thanks, Dave

[Ted Derryberry]

Sorry for not getting back sooner, I've been on the road for the last two days. It was certainly "tongue in cheek" when I said you were cheating with the S2S material. The passage doors I build are outsourced to me by a cabinet shop that specializes in laminates and solid surfaces. The doors are thrown in to their package for a restaurant chain. When they first contacted me (we go back about 30 years when I was a commercial superintendent and they were my supplier) I went to their shop on a day they were finishing up a set of doors to see how they were building them. They handed me a copy of the last material invoice and said "here's our supplier and how much we're paying". Then the guys in the shop actually building the doors showed me some of the material which they were getting milled to final size. Being yellow pine a lot of it looked like a dog's hind leg. At the time work was slow and I decided that although I couldn't make much more than wages milling the lumber myself that was better than sitting around half the week hoping something else came in. I could also control the quality of the final product better. After about 80 doors over the last 10 months I'm busy enough now, along with other work, that I would like to buy it already milled and cut about half my labor, but I'm afraid my material bill wouldn't just double for the custom milling, but would quadruple for the custom milling and throwing away the junk I couldn't use. By doing it myself I have very little waste and make up some of the time later in production because I know what I'm working with rather than hoping it hasn't changed size between the mill and my shop. It is a something of a pain dealing with shavings, but they're easier than dealing with a bunch of lumber that's good for nothing. Strangely enough I enjoy milling lumber to a certain degree, much more than sanding anyway. Its apples and oranges though with your cabinet doors and I certainly see why you buy the material S2S for what you're building and the equipment you're using.

Thanks again to all the professionals sharing their experiences.

[Larry Edgerton]

I tried wide belting material but I noticed that my cutters were developing a nick right at the surface line, I assume that it was from abrasives left behind in the sanding process. Bought a better planer that would allow material to be machined directly and it went away. It could have been the belts I was using, not sure.

[jack duren]

For those of us not in the business but interested in efficiency:

What grits do you typically use in the ROS? What size downdraft table?

Same for grits in WB and edge sander ? Preferences in belts? Is WB single or double head, and does the display stay comparable to the thicknesser pretty reliably and do you try not to change grits to muck up the numbers?

Any preference for door clamp table? I don't do enough door and frames to justify but when I get into a project it is always what I wish for.

Do you find that veneer panels have enough thickness to sand out the line that seems to show up during the last stage? Preference for veneer panels that look the best? I do little in flat panel and make my own veneer when I do but that adds about a year to the process.

Thanks, Dave

Ros we finished in 150/air
Table a Ritter
Overhead 180 sanding back to 150 with ROS
Downdrafts (rare)
378787

[Tom M King]

Martin, Find the Sunday Morning TV show on Autism. I think your workers are out there. They just might not be who you think they are.

[Martin Wasner]

For those of us not in the business but interested in efficiency:

What grits do you typically use in the ROS? What size downdraft table?

Same for grits in WB and edge sander ? Preferences in belts? Is WB single or double head, and does the display stay comparable to the thicknesser pretty reliably and do you try not to change grits to muck up the numbers?

Any preference for door clamp table? I don't do enough door and frames to justify but when I get into a project it is always what I wish for.

Do you find that veneer panels have enough thickness to sand out the line that seems to show up during the last stage? Preference for veneer panels that look the best? I do little in flat panel and make my own veneer when I do but that adds about a year to the process.

Thanks, Dave


ROS 120/150/180/220. That's what I keep on hand. I use clothed backed 3M abrasives. Mostly PSA 120 typically gets used for cabinet interiors that are behind doors and being finished naturally. 150 get's the most use. 180 for stained stuff. 220 rarely gets used. A pack of 50 discs lasts a couple of years, whereas 150 can go away in a week if busy.

Widebelt. 120/180 I also keep a 60 and 80 on hand for hogging. I prefer the cloth backed purple 3M belts. They are expensive, but seem to last much longer. My thickness display is calibrated for the normal 120/180 belts. The lower grit belts are a bit thicker and your part will be a bit thinner than what is showing on the display. I don't really think about it much though, it's really only a few thousandths.

JR has mentioned the Doucet clamps a few times. I've only watched their videos and they look super nice. The JLT single door clamps can be had super reasonably on auction. The peg board clamps are more versatile and you can do more strange stuff with them, though I don't like mine. Want to buy my Unique peg style door clamp? Trade? I'd go straight up for a HK USP .45, I also wouldn't mind a nice 24" disc sander. I'm also in the market for a Benelli M2 shotgun.


Do you mean the line between the joints in the veneer?

[Martin Wasner]

As far as throwing away material. I don't know how much time it would add, but if I buy 500 bd/ft of premium soft maple at $2.30 per bd/ft, surfacing I think costs me $0.15 per bd/ft, or $75. A total of $2.45 per bd/ft, or $1225 for the bunk.

Say I throw away 10% because of crook, bow, or twist, which to be honest is likely a high number, but in the realm of reality. Like I said, doors are picky, nothing else really is on the straightness of material. Face frames are the sum of their parts and usually straighten crooked material out in their own, bowed material the box will straighten out. With doors, you use up the best material first for the longest parts and work your way through the pile.

I pretty confident I can not rough cut, face joint, plane, then size length, edge joint, re-rip, final size width and deal with the swarf and sharpening on the dimensioning of 500 bd/ft of lumber for $125. There's no guarantee it'll be flat/straight tomorrow either. Better odds though, yes. Wood is feisty like that sometimes. I'm curious what the electrical cost would be too. I'm sure it's not huge, but it'd be in there. Dust collection is my biggest hog of electricity.

I haven't worked at that many cabinet shops. I only worked in two before going on my own, and I have helped out a few others temporarily when things were slow for me just starting out. Nobody I worked for regularly surfaced their own material. But that's strictly cabinet shops. I never did fine furniture, or pianos are anything really outside of regular residential cabinets. My view on woodworking is rather finite and limited to cabinetry.

When you're really pumping product out the door, waste is inevitable and must be controlled, but it also needs to be weighed and measured against what is profitable.


Most of the wood tops I make are solid material. I'll usually get that material skip planed and face joint it, just to make the glue up easier and save some passes through the widebelt. Tough to fight twisted up 8/4 white oak wood top into submission, unlike a 3/4" thick face frame with not much width to the parts.

[James Biddle]

Veneered panels cut on table saw (uniform veneer seams running vertically across doors, and uniform pattern running horizontally across doors)
If needed, quick run through shaper for a back cut to bring down thickness to fit groove exactly (like 60 FPM feed, invisible after assembly).


J.R., do you back cut right through the veneer to fit the groove? Doesn't it show?
This is interesting...yesterday we were making veneered panels and we ran the panel MDF through the wide belt to bring them to the right thickness before gluing the veneers on and I was trying to think of a better way. It would be more accurate using your method since you already know the thickness of the veneered panel.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin, Find the Sunday Morning TV show on Autism. I think your workers are out there. They just might not be who you think they are.


I don't know what this means....

[J.R. Rutter]

JR, why the .024" oversized on your rails? That seems like an odd number? Or do you just have the fence set to cut strong even though you're punching in the rail length?

I take a 1/16" off of each end when I cope, just because adding an 1/8 to most numbers is easy.

Just because 0.025 is easy to sand off the ends of the finished doors. The stop is calibrated with the small extra length, so I just enter the lengths on the cutlist. The rails get coped to exact length so the door width is dead on at assembly. The height is dead on after the joints are flushed and saw marks removed from the stile ends. The only time I need to manually remove the extra length from the stop when cutting is for face frame rails. Everything else gets the end grain sanded, like solid drawer face blanks, solid fillers, etc.

[David Kumm]

Martin, I'm talking about flaws in the face veneer. Ply veneer always seems to take a finish just a little differently than thicker veneer so because I'm making for myself, I either cover up ply with a door panel or add my own veneer to exposed sides and panels. Most of my stuff is raised as that is what I like. I'm trapped in the 1990s styles but it will return someday.

Can you run veneer through your WB or just solid wood? I run SIA paper backed belts in 150 and 180 on my small 25" WB - single, and heavier in the double but use the double so seldom I gain no experience with it. When doing doors I set up three shapers and leave them so when I find I screwed something up a week ( year ) or two later, I can duplicate. Makes no economic sense but hobbys generally don't. I really appreciate you commercial guys sharing. Dave

PS, sounds like you need a Kindt Collins Master Sander. 24" is good but 30-36" is even better. The larger ones can go cheaper as few can handle them.

[J.R. Rutter]

J.R., do you back cut right through the veneer to fit the groove? Doesn't it show?
This is interesting...yesterday we were making veneered panels and we ran the panel MDF through the wide belt to bring them to the right thickness before gluing the veneers on and I was trying to think of a better way. It would be more accurate using your method since you already know the thickness of the veneered panel.

Depends on the sheet, but I use a radius back cutter with the fence set so that the radius left snugs up against the edge of the groove in the door. So even if it cuts down into the MDF core, there is veneer right up to the wood frame. If the panels are nice and flat, I could use the trimmed side for the face, but typically a couple of corners will get hit a little heavy, which might show up if seen from the right angle, so the trimmed face goes to the back of the door.

[Jim Becker]

I don't know what this means....
I think he's suggesting that there are "alternative workforce opportunities" for many people who are willing to work but have some personal things that require some understanding, especially initially. Yes, sometimes it takes a bit more patience during the training process, but the end result can be some really good workers.

[Ted Derryberry]

As far as throwing away material. I don't know how much time it would add, but if I buy 500 bd/ft of premium soft maple at $2.30 per bd/ft, surfacing I think costs me $0.15 per bd/ft, or $75. A total of $2.45 per bd/ft, or $1225 for the bunk.

Say I throw away 10% because of crook, bow, or twist, which to be honest is likely a high number, but in the realm of reality. Like I said, doors are picky, nothing else really is on the straightness of material. Face frames are the sum of their parts and usually straighten crooked material out in their own, bowed material the box will straighten out. With doors, you use up the best material first for the longest parts and work your way through the pile.

I pretty confident I can not rough cut, face joint, plane, then size length, edge joint, re-rip, final size width and deal with the swarf and sharpening on the dimensioning of 500 bd/ft of lumber for $125. There's no guarantee it'll be flat/straight tomorrow either. Better odds though, yes. Wood is feisty like that sometimes. I'm curious what the electrical cost would be too. I'm sure it's not huge, but it'd be in there. Dust collection is my biggest hog of electricity.

I haven't worked at that many cabinet shops. I only worked in two before going on my own, and I have helped out a few others temporarily when things were slow for me just starting out. Nobody I worked for regularly surfaced their own material. But that's strictly cabinet shops. I never did fine furniture, or pianos are anything really outside of regular residential cabinets. My view on woodworking is rather finite and limited to cabinetry.

When you're really pumping product out the door, waste is inevitable and must be controlled, but it also needs to be weighed and measured against what is profitable.


Most of the wood tops I make are solid material. I'll usually get that material skip planed and face joint it, just to make the glue up easier and save some passes through the widebelt. Tough to fight twisted up 8/4 white oak wood top into submission, unlike a 3/4" thick face frame with not much width to the parts.

Its been a while since I got prices, but it wasn't just surfacing, it was finish milling and pretty much doubled the cost of the material. My concern is that I buy it today and then by the time it's delivered (another cost due to their location vs. the rough lumber supplier that I pick up from) and then sits in my shop until I use it there's lots of opportunity for things to go bad. This is yellow pine in Georgia where humidity is a real issue.

The rough sawn I buy is already "rough cut". I can buy 4/4x 4 through 12, 5/4x 6 through 12 and 8/4x 6 through 12 in lengths from 8' to 16', all depending on what's in stock at the time. I typically buy 4/4x6x12 and 14, 5/4x10x8 or 16, and 8/4x12x12 or 14 and those sizes make all the parts for the doors. There's little waste of material ripped off the edge of the boards, it's mostly sawdust and shavings. In fact, I usually get a weeks worth of production waste and our household garbage in the 90 gallon trash can that I roll out to the street. That's not counting sawdust and shavings, that goes to the seed and feed store I mentioned earlier.

Kind of got off track there, but basically this is my process:
1. Rough cut to length when I unload the material. I do this outside with a miter saw on a stand just to keep the mess down and its easier to bring the material inside in shorter lengths. I blow the sawdust into the yard with a leaf blower.
2. Face joint and plane to thickness.
3. Straight line rip and re-rip on the slider, no edge jointing required.
4. Trim to final length as necessary. This varies. For the panels of course I glue them up and then cut to length on the vertical panel saw. For the rails and stiles I mill the grooves, then cut to the length, then mill the stub tenons on the rails.

The new slider eliminating the edge jointing, ripping, and sizing to width on the planer has really sped up production. I can take 36 rough sawn 1x6 6' long and by quitting time have 6 - 28.5" x 66.5" panels glued up and groove the glue lines on the CNC (simulated tongue and groove). I'm only gluing one panel at a time due to space issues too. However, I use that time for final sizing and grooving the previous panel, as well as getting prepped for the next stages of the process.

I agree there's no guarantee it will be flat and straight tomorrow. By milling it myself I can get it glued up that day, or the next at worst. That's the big advantage to me. Also, since it's all doors I don't have a lot of opportunity to use up less than ideal material on something else. My electric costs are pretty low. My shop is in my basement and our electric bill seldom gets over $8.00 per day. Maybe half of that is the shop, and that's only on days when I'm really working the equipment. It drops to nearly nothing when I'm doing glue ups and just sanding.

My whole business model is based on close to zero fixed costs (overhead). If I don't work one day, I don't have any costs that day. I'll never get rich, but this is a second career for me and I have no desire to build a business with lots of employees. I just want to provide for my family and get comfortable enough that I can work less and be picky about the work I take when I'm older.

[Larry Edgerton]

A
Dust collection is my biggest hog of electricity.




At my old shop I had a large collector, and it always bugged me to have a 25hp blower running so I could run a 5 hp machine. I often wondered if running two or three smaller units would not be better. Like you I was running the shop with myself and one full time employee, and the 4-500 dollar electric bill was a lot of money not in my pocket. Problem is the big units are cheap used, so that is what you go with.

Enjoying the discussion, always good to learn how other people approach the same problems.

[Martin Wasner]

At my old shop I had a large collector, and it always bugged me to have a 25hp blower running so I could run a 5 hp machine. I often wondered if running two or three smaller units would not be better. Like you I was running the shop with myself and one full time employee, and the 4-500 dollar electric bill was a lot of money not in my pocket. Problem is the big units are cheap used, so that is what you go with.

Enjoying the discussion, always good to learn how other people approach the same problems.

I agree, it's silly having all those horsepowers running when it's just one idiot making a mess. I've wondered at what point does it not matter and you just leave it running all day though because it's always in use by at least one person? My electric bill is about $500 a month for the shop, and another $1200 for the heat.... I should've slammed a propane boiler in but I was in a bad mood about propane after getting royally screwed on the price a year or two prior to building. A train fell off the tracks while a pipeline was shut down for maintenance and we were stuck paying almost $5 a gallon. Plus they were rationing. I'm getting a propane boiler in before next winter, I'm just pissing away too much money there.

I had three collectors in the old shop. I am going to add a small cyclone inside to service just the benches in the new shop. I just wanted it centralized with one disposal spot and I wanted to be filtering a lot of air. But that comes with the cost. Some of the stuff just needs a butt load of air too. Like the widebelt and the moulder. I ain't emptying bags on that moulder. That would be murder. And you're right, the medium sized collectors can be had pretty cheap. I think I paid $5k for my baghouse.

A while back you posted something about making a mess doing a climb cut. My initial thought was, "move more air". I didn't say it, because you've got what you've got. But, The shaper I've got doing my panel raising has a 10" drop to it. Holy crap does that thing suck up the chips. Hardly anything escapes. In fact sometimes something get's pitched out, and then it goes right back in. You'd lose your hat if you aren't careful.



I really wish I had the time for messing around with metal fab stuff. I've got two ideas for a baghouse I'd like to build. I'm pretty sure the first one is too complicated and won't work or be constantly plagued with filter problems, but I think the second would be just fine. I'd put a cyclone outside with a fan pulling through it, and pushing to a baghouse. In the non-conditioned months, just bypass the baghouse and pump the air outside after the fan. Then there's no wear and tear on the bags either.

Most filtering setups are running the air the wrong way through the filter I think. With a cartridge filter, the dirty air should be on the outside, clean inside. Then use compressed air stream winding up to clean itself. I got the idea from watching a gadget for cleaning Ag air filters for tractors. There's a whole mess of problems with that though. Inaccessibility being one, having to setup PLC controllers for probably 20 different filters is another. Plus, it'd take a while to run through the sequence blowing out that much surface area.

The other idea, and the one that I think will actually work, is having expanded metal rolled into a tube, then slipping a filter sock over it. Filter tubes with the air going on the inside plug up way too easily. I want the opposite of how my baghouse currently operates I guess. If the dust is clinging to the outside, I think it'll release pretty easily. Possibly on it's own. I haven't come up with a good idea, (read simple), idea for knocking the dust off though.

Basically, I need to win the lottery so I can do this crap for fun.

[Darcy Warner]

25hp DC is nothing when you have 125hp running when a moulder is going.

It probably costs more to start and stop the DC than it does to keep it running.

[Martin Wasner]

No, but when you're using a 9hp shaper and a 1-1/2hp power feed with a 20hp dust collector to run an 1/8" round over it's a little crazy

[David Kumm]

If running separate DC systems I'd separate the sanding from the chips. Cyclone the the chips and run the sanding dust through either an outside to inside pulse jet cartridge box or a large singed poly felt auto shaker- inside to outside. Most shop cyclones separate 50-70% of fine dust so there isn't the bang for the buck although a preseparator doesn't hurt. A problem trying to use a cyclone for fines in a commercial shop is the cyclone may be oversized to circulate the smaller volume and velocity generated with only the sanders running. Cartridges can be designed as inside out but cleaning is hard and putting chips into them really makes a mess. Pulse jet cartridges for sanding and bags when running chips ( or venting outside ) may be the best choices. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I agree, it's silly having all those horsepowers running when it's just one idiot making a mess. I've wondered at what point does it not matter and you just leave it running all day though because it's always in use by at least one person? My electric bill is about $500 a month for the shop, and another $1200 for the heat.... I should've slammed a propane boiler in but I was in a bad mood about propane after getting royally screwed on the price a year or two prior to building. A train fell off the tracks while a pipeline was shut down for maintenance and we were stuck paying almost $5 a gallon. Plus they were rationing. I'm getting a propane boiler in before next winter, I'm just pissing away too much money there.

I had three collectors in the old shop. I am going to add a small cyclone inside to service just the benches in the new shop. I just wanted it centralized with one disposal spot and I wanted to be filtering a lot of air. But that comes with the cost. Some of the stuff just needs a butt load of air too. Like the widebelt and the moulder. I ain't emptying bags on that moulder. That would be murder. And you're right, the medium sized collectors can be had pretty cheap. I think I paid $5k for my baghouse.

A while back you posted something about making a mess doing a climb cut. My initial thought was, "move more air". I didn't say it, because you've got what you've got. But, The shaper I've got doing my panel raising has a 10" drop to it. Holy crap does that thing suck up the chips. Hardly anything escapes. In fact sometimes something get's pitched out, and then it goes right back in. You'd lose your hat if you aren't careful.



I really wish I had the time for messing around with metal fab stuff. I've got two ideas for a baghouse I'd like to build. I'm pretty sure the first one is too complicated and won't work or be constantly plagued with filter problems, but I think the second would be just fine. I'd put a cyclone outside with a fan pulling through it, and pushing to a baghouse. In the non-conditioned months, just bypass the baghouse and pump the air outside after the fan. Then there's no wear and tear on the bags either.

Most filtering setups are running the air the wrong way through the filter I think. With a cartridge filter, the dirty air should be on the outside, clean inside. Then use compressed air stream winding up to clean itself. I got the idea from watching a gadget for cleaning Ag air filters for tractors. There's a whole mess of problems with that though. Inaccessibility being one, having to setup PLC controllers for probably 20 different filters is another. Plus, it'd take a while to run through the sequence blowing out that much surface area.

The other idea, and the one that I think will actually work, is having expanded metal rolled into a tube, then slipping a filter sock over it. Filter tubes with the air going on the inside plug up way too easily. I want the opposite of how my baghouse currently operates I guess. If the dust is clinging to the outside, I think it'll release pretty easily. Possibly on it's own. I haven't come up with a good idea, (read simple), idea for knocking the dust off though.

Basically, I need to win the lottery so I can do this crap for fun.


My winning the lottery scheme is to buy a 4x4 camper van with a KTM Adventure on the back and take off with my wife looking for adventure, all the while a new shop is being built back here while I wander, and being filled with robins egg blue and equivalent equipment, you know, just in case I need a break from all the adventure.

I too have come up with a lot of dream/schemes for collection. I agree that the filters are being used wrong, much harder to clean that way.

I was lucky my old shop was on Natural Gas, as is my new place. Still the old shop was about $1800 for heat in the cold months, propane, I would have had to close for the winter. I checked out where you are on the map when I was thinking of dropping in, and it would seem like at that location that you would be prime for a simple solar heat setup to take advantage of the southern exposure. Something you could build yourself. I'm above the 45th, and because of the great lakes get little sun for half the winter, so marginal here, but you should be good there I would think.

Ya, I noticed that big hose. I am running a 6", but my fan is less than 3200 cfm, not really positive as it is a junkyard dog. I just blow outside now and clean up with the tractor when I get ten yards or so, no empting anything, Ya Hoo! Not going to invest any more money in dust collection, I'm old, I have no employees any more and when you go to sell, dust collectors are a loser.

One of my dust collection ideas was a cement block room, about twenty by 20 with a height of about 15, and a flat ceiling that was all filter media on a welded grid. This grid would be hooked to a simple vibrator, and electrical motor with an eccentric weight. This would be on whenever the dust collector was on. The dust would enter under a baffle, and on this point I had several ideas, but the whole thing is so large that stuff would settle out. Two doors big enough to get my tractor in to clean it out, sealed tight of course. Summer final dump outside, winter blow it back inside.

So ya, me too........ Need to win the lottery!

[Mark Bolton]

Im in the separate systems camp. In a facility like yours if you had an 8 man crew in there and the associated in-flow of cash, there would be an advantage to firing up and leaving it running all day. I am in the same boat when running a single machine or sanding and I can be running dedicated shop vac collectors and if one sander is running one collector is running, two, two, three, three and so on. We have a main collector for the bulk of the shop that drives me nuts when the shop is noisy with sanding and the collector doesnt get shut off and simply sits there idling. Have a separate cyclone for the cnc. So to some extent each station has its own power burden.

I have tried to carry this modular philosophy anywhere and everywhere I can. Its the reason for the electric sanders. The notion of arbitrarily manufacturing massive amounts of air as being cheap or cost effective is coming to an end even in big industry. I think to often those of us growing into larger work simply carry forward the mistakes of the past as opposed to capitalizing on the current advances in the industry.

I want to be able to dial my consumption down proportionately in comparison to the operations being performed.\

The issues of cost with regards to firing up large machinery is definitely an issue when your on 3 phase demand rates. I knew several large operations that would allow alot of machines to simply idle all night long because if they walked in at 7am and fired the all up their demand rate for that period would be astronomical. Insane that the utilities would incentivize wasting power.

[Peter Christensen]

Martin I worked in an aerospace plant that had Donaldson Torit downdraft tables, that the smaller parts were sanded on and booths where the larger parts were sanded in. The booths had the air going into a unit that had 4 filters (190sq ft oval cartridges) pulling the air from outside in (the way you think they should be run) through the 5 hp impeller and then exhausting through HEPA filters that were added on. They had a compressed air back flow system to knock the dust off the individual filters, normally cycling all day, but they sound like small cannons going off, which PO's everyone, so they were only cycled at the end of the day or at shift change when used 24 hours a day. They would still eventually clog up and every 3 months they had to be changed or sent out for cleaning. Cleaning cost 25% to 30% of a new filter so saved money. They could be cleaned 3 to 4 times before needing to be replaced. I found out from the cleaning company that they won't clean the Chinese made filters from hobby DCs because they come apart in their machine. Ours were eventually setup with 6 filtration units (4 cartridges in each) in a row with a top and side at each end. Across the front was a curtain of heavy clear plastic strips cut short 2' from the floor to let the air in, and allow for moving in and out. One tip is to set up the work so the sanders are throwing the dust towards the collector and not the curtain. You might find used ones around or different brands doing the same thing. https://www.donaldson.com/en-us/industrial-dust-fume-mist/equipment/dust-collectors/cartridge/downflo-workstation/ Check out the brochure to see the layout options.
Before they started using the cleaning company I told them about, I got a couple dozen+ for myself that were being tossed every time. They cost me $40Can each to be cleaned but I have a lifetime supply for my own use.

Another type of downdraft system we had used water to filter out the dust. Dirty air was pulled down through a tank of water, then through water impinging filters, through the impeller and back over the operator. Good cool place to stand in the summer. http://www.hydrotron.net

[Darcy Warner]

Sorry, 20hp DC isn't really anything.

That's why you see a bunch of 15 to 20hp dustek/Murphy Rodgers set up for small groups of machines plus a 50 to 75 up unit outside with airlock/transfer blowers/shakers, pulse jet etc. How much more floor space is taken up by smaller individual collectors? How much more pipe? How much more wiring? Electricity is part of overhead, if you have to worry about a 20hp motor, something is not right.

[Mark Bolton]

Sorry, 20hp DC isn't really anything.

That's why you see a bunch of 15 to 20hp dustek/Murphy Rodgers set up for small groups of machines plus a 50 to 75 up unit outside with airlock/transfer blowers/shakers, pulse jet etc. How much more floor space is taken up by smaller individual collectors? How much more pipe? How much more wiring? Electricity is part of overhead, if you have to worry about a 20hp motor, something is not right.

As I said, I think its a matter of scale. And your "something not right" is spot on to me. Im talking about a small shop with 2-5 guys and more than likely less than that. As Martin has stated, he is running that entire shop alone at this point. When you factor in the fact that multiple stations are not running at full capacity simultaneously, it may well be smarter to break the system down a bit or try to batch the large demand work while the large DC is running. We have two cyclones in the shop and a few smaller DC's that take up very little floor space. The piping for a dedicated machine is virtually zero compared to extending or modifying a main branch to pick up a machine added to a currently unfed portion of the shop.

For me, my CNC was a perfect example. I could extend my mains 50' and deal with the loss or toss a cyclone in a dead corner right next to the machine with 8' of sheet metal pipe and a hank of flex to pick up the CNC. The best part is that the HP that feeds the CNC DC is only running when the CNC is running.

I couldnt agree more that when you pass a breaking point a 25HP motor is inconsequential in the overall operating costs. In my small shop, when I hit the blower on the booth, the temp in the shop in the winter crashes. When I duct my DC outside in the summer, my shop turns into an oven with drawn in hot, wet air, which then means the AC has to work twice as hard to pull water out and we are still sweating.

Sounds like Martin and I are a bit similar in that we are constantly trying to think of cost effective ways to run, and run efficiently.

[Darcy Warner]

It's usually just me and a PT guy, but it doesn't bother me when I have a couple hundred HP worth of motors running. Heck the gang rip is 75hp. If I get two moulders running at the same time, that's over 265 hp.

My planer is almost 20hp running, rip saw is 20hp running.
You have a few separate collectors going in a decent sized shop and you will have at least 20hp+ combined running. If you are worried about start up, add a soft start.

Be days I run everything, then days nothing is on because I am working on customers equipment.

[Mark Bolton]

It's usually just me and a PT guy, but it doesn't bother me when I have a couple hundred HP worth of motors running. Heck the gang rip is 75hp. If I get two moulders running at the same time, that's over 265 hp.

My planer is almost 20hp running, rip saw is 20hp running.
You have a few separate collectors going in a decent sized shop and you will have at least 20hp+ combined running. If you are worried about start up, add a soft start.

Be days I run everything, then days nothing is on because I am working on customers equipment.

No doubt. The load of a molding operation is a lot different than multiple small stations that are not running simultaneously. Comparing 3 machines eating 265 HP is a heck of a lot different than a 20HP DC servicing a single shaper. Its apples and oranges.

[Martin Wasner]

Electricity is part of overhead, if you have to worry about a 20hp motor, something is not right.

Worrying and not wanting to piss money away for the heck of it are separate concepts.

[J.R. Rutter]

Throw a clamp meter on it and see what you are really drawing for amperage with just one gate open vs 6-8 gates. It may be a bit much, but at least with a DC power consumption is proportional to air flow. I know with the setup I have, with a ton of filter area, I need to throttle it somewhat to avoid blowing the overload protection.

[Justin Ludwig]

I've been at drill all weekend and just had a chance to watch and peruse the whole thread. Though you have far more space and equipment than me, I see one area to shave some time, even if your running a batch of doors:

You run the stick, then adjust the same machine to S4S the other side to size. Utilizing your shop and the equipment in the video (and this is for batches of doors, not just one door):
SLR to +5/32
Plane 1 edge -1/16" (up to 10-15 boards at a time, not one board as done on the shaper). I have a spiral head and the finish is ready for sanding.
Stick boards -1/16.
Cut to length.
Cope needed pieces.
Cut panels.
Build doors.
Edge sand remaining 1/32.
Drill hinges.
Widebelt.
ROS.

IMO, you're wasting your time sanding to 220 with a ROS. I finish my own cabinets in paint or stain and I promise, 220 is a waste of time. If you're seeing a scratch pattern after 180, you're pressing too hard.

Here's my sanding (I don't have a widebelt)

Poplar paint grade: 120, 180 done. After a widebelt, you should be able to hit it with just 150. Properly primed and painted, you can get it so slick a fly will land on it, slip and break a wing.

Stain Grade: Alder, Pine, Cedar woods - 120, 180. Again, if your widebelt is tuned in - straight to 180.

Stain grade: Maple, oak, hickory, or any ol' hard wood - 100, 120, 180.

I don't buy 150 grit. I can go 120 to 180 with spectacular results. If you can't, then you're pressing too hard with 120.

Every piece of plywood gets sanded with 180 before assembly. The plywood is presanded but just isn't smooth. The weight of the ROS with 180 grit is enough pressure to denib all the plys I work with. Some may think this is over kill, but if you feel one of my doors or cabinets compared to a box store piece or even one done by local painters and you can easily tell the difference (and I'm talking the local-lacquer-huffin-painters I had to deal with). We'll sand the 5x5 drawer material in whole sheets before breaking them down. I had one lady complain the drawer bottoms were too slick. Whatever lady, you were gonna put contact paper in it anyway.

My post may or may not help you. But I THINK that's how I'd do it (in regards to your process). Theory and application don't always mesh.

[Darcy Warner]

Worrying and not wanting to piss money away for the heck of it are separate concepts.

Constantly starting and stopping it will cost more than running it. If gates are shut down amp draw is lower, leaving gates open will consume more energy.

The most expensive part is always starting something up.

[Ted Derryberry]

Its harder on the motor also. Most motors last longer if you just let them run all day rather than starting and stopping them all day. Read the owner's manual though, some smaller motors have a duty cycle and will overheat if left running too long, even if they aren't under load.

[David Kumm]

An issue with a large system, say a 12" main, is that you can't just run with one or two gates open and maintain the minimum velocity needed to clear the line and to separate efficiently. Every cyclone is designed with a minimum and maximum inlet velocity to separate. That means a large system must keep the cfm up to work correctly. A one size fits all will mean high energy bills even if partially used. Dave

[Gregory Stahl]

I think I would get a Nederman or Bellfab to run the shop and use the 20HP for widebelt/sanders and maybe the moulder if I could not find a cyclone for it. You are paying for the new dust collector in your heat bill.

My 8400’ building cost me about $210 to heat this last month ending on Feb 7th. I understand natural gas is less—but not that much! I keep the whole building at 60-degrees. I opened the garage doors many, many times. My building is wrapped in large 9’x9’ and 9’ x6’ windows too!

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

You are paying for the new dust collector in your heat bill.

I'm cycling the air back into the building. It comes back cooler, but not by a heck of a lot.




My 8400’ building cost me about $210 to heat this last month ending on Feb 7th. I understand natural gas is less—but not that much! I keep the whole building at 60-degrees. I opened the garage doors many, many times. My building is wrapped in large 9’x9’ and 9’ x6’ windows too!

That's probably about right. Similar square footage, higher wall height (though you did scissor trusses if I remember corectly), I've got 68' of 14' tall overhead doors and too many windows, I'm a bit warmer at thermostat set at 63 and I'm 60(ish) miles north of madtown so the delta T is a bit greater. As an example, it's currently 8 degrees here, and 16 in Madison. I'm about even with Stevens Point for reference, just a twinge south of there

I'm kicking myself at the moment for doing the electric heat, I looked at a calculator somewhere online, and with current LP prices my cost per btu was 2.6 times that of LP. NG is a nit more than half the cost of LP per btu. I should be around $450 per month on LP right now.

A propane boiler is only $9k installed, and then I'll have a secondary heat source as well. Redundancy at -40 is peace of mind and it'll pay for itself quickly enough.

[jack duren]

Trying to get them to look at Biomass heating at the shop. Burn wood scraps

[Martin Wasner]

There's a local commercial shop that burns all of it's scrap for heat. I don't know if they are using sawdust as well.

[Joe Calhoon]

There is a lot of variation in how utilities bill across the country. Our utility put us on a demand meter for a few years. That is a killer with the bigger motors. I had always heard start up is what gets you with a demand meter but that was not the case with ours. Long running of motors past 15 0r 20 minutes is what kicked this type meter up. The utility put a computer device on ours for a month so we could see where the cost was going. It helped and we never ran the 3 head sander or the moulder at the same time and shut the DC off when we did not need it. Closing blast gates does help and have never noticed dust buildup in the ducts with our system. that shaved 2 to 3 hundred off the bill each month and did not affect production much. One thing that surprised me was the cost of running lights. After much negotiating I talked the utility into taking us off the meter and paying more per kw. That way we only pay for what we use.

Running the DC all day would be annoying to me. That is the norm in large shops with a lot of employees but in a 3 to 5 or so custom shop I see no need. We now have a twin 10HP Belfab unit that feeds one baghouse with dust transfer to a trailer or briquitter. One side collects the 3 head sander, shapers and tenoner. the other side does the 4 head moulder, jointer, planer and various saws and other tools. We pack remote starters that control the 2 fans and dust transfer. It works good, saves a lot of steps and only run the DC when needed.

There are more complex systems that use auto blast gates, DC starting when a machine comes on and computerized VFDs to control the fans. I am happy with the way my system works now and simple to maintain.