I like bad, new tools

[Patrick Chase]

Actually I don't (and the idea of spending hours rehabbing tools like the Windsor #33 mystifies me) but it seemed that we needed threads about all 4 kinds of tools :-).

[John Schtrumpf]

My paper weight made from a new Stanley No. 92 Sweetheart Shoulder / Chisel Plane, with a tilted bed :)

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

Actually I don't (and the idea of spending hours rehabbing tools like the Windsor #33 mystifies me) but it seemed that we needed threads about all 4 kinds of tools :-).

I don't get the point of this thread? Also, why on earth would anyone expect a $14.99 plane to be any more than a complete waste of everyone's time, effort, and of precious natural resources. Or is that the point?

Cheers, Dom

[Andrey Kharitonkin]

Have you seen bench plane by Narex? http://www.narextools.cz/en/iron-plane-8270

I've heard it also moves blade laterally left or right when adjusting depth of cut...

https://youtu.be/bpYzJ_RO1Do?t=2m47s

[Frederick Skelly]

But Patrick, what do you find to be the best SHARPENING approach for bad new tools?

I use scary sharp for my new Stanley block plane. After having inserted the cheap, stamped steel iron carefully in my LV jig, I rub it back and forth on the concrete garage floor. (It cuts quickly and there's a lot of surface area, so it never clogs.) Then I follow with stropping on mdf slathered with LV green compound. When I need to change the bevel angle, I use the rougher concrete of my driveway. Then I repeat on the garage floor before stropping. I find this method to be superior to all others.:D :D :D

Fred

[Sorry guys. I just couldn't help myself.]

[ken hatch]

Have you seen bench plane by Narex? http://www.narextools.cz/en/iron-plane-8270

I've heard it also moves blade laterally left or right when adjusting depth of cut...


Andrey,

It's so ugly I want one :p.

ken

[Todd Stock]

I don't get the point of this thread? Also, why on earth would anyone expect a $14.99 plane to be any more than a complete waste of everyone's time, effort, and of precious natural resources. Or is that the point?

Cheers, Dom

Natural resources? Bah! It is UN-natural resources at work here, as anyone held in thrall to some demon-possessed creation of the Dark Lord of the HFT soon recognizes.



*HFT = Harbor Freight Tools

[Jeff Heath]

Actually I don't (and the idea of spending hours rehabbing tools like the Windsor #33 mystifies me) but it seemed that we needed threads about all 4 kinds of tools :-).

Why are you so critical of what other people like and want to spend their time on? Your post sounds an awful lot like someone who only wants people to write about topics he approves of. It's ok to skip reading the threads that don't interest you.....really, it is.

[Todd Stock]

Neanderthal Haven is where hand tool snobs live...expecting them to award participation trophies for 'good try' is unrealistic. Galoots do what they do, which is to engage in critical review of every aspect of human-powered machinery, to include carping about modern tool steel, the change in local acceleration due to gravity since they were awesome young men (and thus, unable to throw an additional six ounces around the bench for more than a few minutes), and the parental status and relationships of tool designers. Busting HF's chops is just icing on the cake.

As for Patrick's post?? I thought it was hilarious, but then I'm in the 1/3 of people that get nearly every form of humor.

[Nathan Johnson]

Why are you so critical of what other people like and want to spend their time on? Your post sounds an awful lot like someone who only wants people to write about topics he approves of. It's ok to skip reading the threads that don't interest you.....really, it is.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Mark Gibney]

I'm here to defend the Windsor #33!

I bought one a number of years back out of curiosity (it was $10 then), and I keep it because I use it.

I use it where I wouldn't use a better plane, say to shave the edge of a plywood or mdf panel, or where there might be a buried brad that could nip the edge. I take it with me when I work on site.

Didn't take long to flatten the sole, don't know if I'd even bother now. Can't remember how much work I had to do with the blade.

I use it somewhat like a block plane. I even like the simple thumb wheel blade adjustment. It's a simple plane and does what I ask of it.
I've heard some people have turned their's into a scrub plane.

[David Eisenhauer]

Just stop it Frederick, stop it. DO NOT POKE THE RATTLESNAKE WITH A STICK!

[Prashun Patel]

Not really seeing the point of this thread except to get a good laugh or to start a fight. Keep it lighthearted, guys.

[John C Cox]

It's easy to pick on bad, new, cheap tools like HF Chisels... 6 for $7.00.. And only 1 in the pack works as a chisel... That's shooting fish in a barrel...

So... How about bad, new, expensive tools?

What are your most spectacular tool flops?

Like... Oh.. Say....
The CPM M10 HSS iron I bought for my Stanley 7" block plane... That is nearly the worst $75 (or so) I have ever spent.. And I have diamond stones to hone it on... It's an awful, hateful thing..

Or how about my fancy pants premium chisels with razor sharp ultra fine side bevels (ooooohhhhhh so you don't bruise the cheeks of your dovetails - I don't make dovetail anything.....).. But the sides are so sharp that they don't register right when cleaning out a mortise.... I would like them 50x better if they had fat cheeks like a typical Stanley or a Two Cherries.... Not to mention it's made of a fancy pants alloy that's really hard to put a good edge on - even with diamond....

The ONE fantastic thing about traditional designs is that they have already worked most of this stuff out...

[Daniel O'Connell]

Andrey,

It's so ugly I want one :p.

ken

Gotta catch 'em all, right?

[Phil Mueller]

I really enjoyed my new set of small diameter auger bits for $14.00. It was fun watching them one by one bend into odd shapes as they twisted around. 15 minutes of fun for $14? Not too bad.

[Jim Koepke]

I really enjoyed my new set of small diameter auger bits for $14.00.

Just last week one of my favorite rust hunt stops had a bundle of 3 twist drills, a 1/4" screwdriver blade and a gimlet, all with tangs to fit in a brace for $1.

My wife calls me "a cheap date."

They have already provided me with more than $1 worth of fun and will surely provide more in the future.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Why are you so critical of what other people like and want to spend their time on? Your post sounds an awful lot like someone who only wants people to write about topics he approves of. It's ok to skip reading the threads that don't interest you.....really, it is.

It was a joke. We had a thread entitled "I like good tools". We had a thread entitled "I like old tools". I felt the need to balance the force. That's all.

[Jeff Heath]

My apologies. I have to work on my sense of humor......

[Patrick Chase]

What are your most spectacular tool flops?

Like... Oh.. Say....
The CPM M10 HSS iron I bought for my Stanley 7" block plane... That is nearly the worst $75 (or so) I have ever spent.. And I have diamond stones to hone it on... It's an awful, hateful thing.

Been there, done that (CPM-10V iron), with similar results. I also have a set of Japanese HAP40 chisels that are much easier to hone than 10V, but that still see limited use because they ideally want diamond, which isn't all that practical in the shop. I can get good edges on both steels with diamond compounds on cast iron hones FWIW. The problem with diamond plates is that there aren't any truly fine-grit options (the finest DMT is 3 um, vs ~1 um for many non-diamond polishing stones), such that you have to finish on film or compound to get a refined edge. High-Vanadium wonder steels have their place, but my shop isn't it. If I had it to do again I'd buy a couple/few of the HAP40 chisels for "extreme use", but no more than that.

I have a Crown tools burnisher that appears to be softer than some of my scrapers, which I consider to be a fail.

A long time ago I bought a (new) Stanley 60-1/2, which wasn't that much cheaper than the LV LA block. Compared to the latter it's objectionably heavy, the adjuster is sticky and has a fair bit of backlash, and the tensioner goes from "loose" to "locked" too quickly. I suspect the adjuster and tensioner issues may be a result of the aluminum lever cap tending to stick to the steel iron.

While I like Narex tools in general, my parers were so badly bellied that I had to spend many hours working on them. They work fine now but I consider them to have been a "fail" inasmuch as it would have made more economic sense to pay (even a lot) more for tools requiring less work.

Oh, and many years back I was lured by the siren song of the aforementioned Windsor #33. $10 plus a couple hours of work yielded basically zip. The next time I want a "beater plane" I'll spend $100 for a Quangsheng/WoodRiver on sale or a post-WWII Stanley for less than that, and save my time. I'd much rather sacrifice money than that much hard work.



Or how about my fancy pants premium chisels with razor sharp ultra fine side bevels (ooooohhhhhh so you don't bruise the cheeks of your dovetails - I don't make dovetail anything.....).. But the sides are so sharp that they don't register right when cleaning out a mortise.... I would like them 50x better if they had fat cheeks like a typical Stanley or a Two Cherries.... Not to mention it's made of a fancy pants alloy that's really hard to put a good edge on - even with diamond....

Oddly enough I have either the same chisels or similar ones (the kind from Canada, not Maine) and love them. I find the relatively non-exotic (compared to, say, CPM-10V or HAP40) alloy easy to hone on AlOxide stones, no diamond required, and the Canadian ones are available in O1 as well. I also like the sharp side edges, but then again I also have firmers and mortise chisels for jobs that require side registration. With that said, if you like sharp sides you don't have to spend $$$. Some practice and a few minutes with a belt grinder does the trick for basically any Western chisel. Don't try it on your expensive Japanese chisels, though.

[Patrick Chase]

Have you seen bench plane by Narex? http://www.narextools.cz/en/iron-plane-8270

I've heard it also moves blade laterally left or right when adjusting depth of cut...

https://youtu.be/bpYzJ_RO1Do?t=2m47s

Ooh, an Aluminum body. That's gonna leave a mark (literally).

[Jim Koepke]

The next time I want a "beater plane" I'll spend $100 for a Quangsheng/WoodRiver on sale, and save my time. I'd much rather sacrifice money than that much hard work.

My solution was to spend $3 for a Dunlap (Millers Falls) plane at a yard sale. It is a #3 size plane that won't leave me sobbing if it gets dropped or nicked while working out in the wild.

My other beater, a #5-1/4, was turned into a scrub plane. It was a bad buy from ebay. The poor thing was beat to heck and back but does a good job on the rough stuff.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My solution was to spend $3 for a Dunlap (Millers Falls) plane at a yard sale. It is a #3 size plane that won't leave me sobbing if it gets dropped or nicked while working out in the wild.

My other beater, a #5-1/4, was turned into a scrub plane. It was a bad buy from ebay. The poor thing was beat to heck and back but does a good job on the rough stuff.

jtk

Yeah, I edited my post to reflect that a "mediocre" old tool is a good choice here. I got carried away with the "new tool" theme :-).

[steven c newman]

Had one of the #33 planes....turned it into a #3 sized scrub plane.....found out I like a #5 sized scrub better. Handle from the #33 are now on a Stanley #7 that needed new handles....

I prefer the Older, Vintage tools, usually just a little older than I am. A 1953 Disston D-8, 8ppi still works nicely as a crosscut saw. Type 4 Millers Falls #9 smooth plane works just as well as my type 9 Stanley #4....

[John C Cox]

Oddly enough I have either the same chisels or similar ones (the kind from Canada, not Maine) and love them. I find the relatively non-exotic (compared to, say, CPM-10V or HAP40) alloy easy to hone on AlOxide stones, no diamond required, and the Canadian ones are available in O1 as well. I also like the sharp side edges, but then again I also have firmers and mortise chisels for jobs that require side registration. With that said, if you like sharp sides you don't have to spend $$$. Some practice and a few minutes with a belt grinder does the trick for basically any Western chisel. Don't try it on your expensive Japanese chisels, though.

These came out well before the LN and LV chisels... They are things of beauty and their maker is a truly great fellow... And they certainly did turn the world upside down when they came out... But LV and LN have since sucked all the wind out of that market.....

[Patrick Chase]

These came out well before the LN and LV chisels... They are things of beauty and their maker is a truly great fellow... And they certainly did turn the world upside down when they came out... But LV and LN have since sucked all the wind out of that market.....

Are you referring to the A2 paring chisels that you've referenced in another thread?

[Bill Houghton]

You're assuming a dichotomy rather than a range: good/bad, new/old. All the slightly used, mediocre (neither good nor bad) tools are gonna get their feelings hurt.

[John C Cox]

Just to tell on myself....

If you looked at my woodworking hand tools and didn't know better - you might assume I actually like new, bad tools... I have no shortage of them..... Far too many in fact....

And lately - I have been deliberating on the correct solution to this problem....

What do you guys do with the seemingly inevitable stack of these cheap, bad tools which aren't *quite* horrible enough to just throw out.....

[Jim Koepke]

What do you guys do with the seemingly inevitable stack of these cheap, bad tools which aren't *quite* horrible enough to just throw out.....

Yard Sale!

jtk

[steven c newman]

I bunch them up for that auction site....or take them to a trading spot I know about....and then buy better tools. Trade a few old wood bodied planes for a Stanley No.6c, type 10, AND...a disston No.4 backsaw....

[Matt Evans]

That Narex plane is one ugly. . .thing. . .

[Mike Baker 2]

I have to confess that I really love my cheap, junky Harbor Freight wood chisels.
They take a really good edge. They don't hold one very long in heavy use, but if I keep a pasted strop on the bench and hit it every 45 minutes or so, I can, and have, gone for 5 hours or more and keep a hair popping edge in the soft woods I'm working.
They are fairly ugly, unevenly ground, etc., everything you might consider a good chisel to NOT be, but for a beginner like me, they cost me less than lunch at McDonalds.I wish they were junk, so I could justify buying better. Sadly, no dice.

[Bill Houghton]

What do you guys do with the seemingly inevitable stack of these cheap, bad tools which aren't *quite* horrible enough to just throw out.....
If you have more time than money, yard sale or auction site. They may be the cat's PJs for someone.

If you are OK with money but lacking time, consider thrift stores. In our area, a lot of the thrift stores redirect tool donations to the local ReStore; if you lack a ReStore in your area, the thrift stores are probably more open to tools. Pick the thrift store supporting the charity you like and go from there.

[Patrick Chase]

That Narex plane is one ugly. . .thing. . .

I give them credit for at least trying something new.

The rotational coupling between the blade extension adjust and the lateral adjust is "unfortunate", though I wonder how bad it would really be in use, where there is blade tension resisting that lateral "push". Note that the Bailey adjuster also has some (lower) potential for the same issue, depending on how tight the wishbone part's hinge is and how tightly it wraps around the adjuster barrel.

[Jim Koepke]

That Narex plane is one ugly. . .thing. . .

It would definitely be left behind on any of my rust hunts. Plastic handles and knobs are a turn off for me.

jtk

[Stew Denton]

Fred,

I read your sharpening post with great interest, as I am looking for good information on "state of the art" sharpening methods, thus my great interest, but in spite of your innovative and well thought out method, your post did bring questions to mind:

1. Obviously your garage floor sharpening method is the method of choice when your after "state of the art sharpness" for your smoothing plane when you need to create curls you can see though. This, so that you can put finish on the resulting surface without sanding. My question is: do you have some quicker method that can be used when a shaving grade edge is not needed, say for a scrub plane or something similar?

2. My second question is: what do you do for a portable and light weigh sharpening system? Obviously you can't take your driveway with you. Do you have a couple of 12" cinder or concrete blocks in medium and fine grit, and if so do you have a couple of fair size heavy duty tool box that you can carry each in?

3. Finally, do you use some sort of honing oil on the garage floor like on an oil stone: Smith's Honing Oil?, mineral oil?, WD40?, used 10W40?

Please advise.......inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Frederick Skelly]

Fred,

I read your sharpening post with great interest, as I am looking for good information on "state of the art" sharpening methods, thus my great interest, but in spite of your innovative and well thought out method, your post did bring questions to mind:

1. Obviously your garage floor sharpening method is the method of choice when your after "state of the art sharpness" for your smoothing plane when you need to create curls you can see though. This, so that you can put finish on the resulting surface without sanding. My question is: do you have some quicker method that can be used when a shaving grade edge is not needed, say for a scrub plane or something similar?

2. My second question is: what do you do for a portable and light weigh sharpening system? Obviously you can't take your driveway with you. Do you have a couple of 12" cinder or concrete blocks in medium and fine grit, and if so do you have a couple of fair size heavy duty tool box that you can carry each in?

3. Finally, do you use some sort of honing oil on the garage floor like on an oil stone: Smith's Honing Oil?, mineral oil?, WD40?, used 10W40?

Please advise.......inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks and regards,

Stew

:D :D :D :D :D A great comeback Stew! I laughed my tail off!

All the best,
Fred

[Patrick Chase]

I was coming up empty, but Stew has inspired me...



I use scary sharp for my new Stanley block plane. After having inserted the cheap, stamped steel iron carefully in my LV jig, I rub it back and forth on the concrete garage floor. (It cuts quickly and there's a lot of surface area, so it never clogs.) Then I follow with stropping on mdf slathered with LV green compound. When I need to change the bevel angle, I use the rougher concrete of my driveway. Then I repeat on the garage floor before stropping. I find this method to be superior to all others.:D :D :D

Yeah, that works alright, but you have to be careful to pour only natural white concrete (http://www.concretecountertopinstitute.com/blog/2015/05/natural-gray-creative-concrete-countertops/) (henceforth: CNat) in your garage. The grey Portland stuff is OK for carpentry, but those iron and magnesium oxides are very rough on edges and prevent you from achieving the "airy scandinavian look" that you know your garage needs to put your epoxy-loving neighbors in their place.

As a bonus CNat provides a gentler honing action leading to infinitely longer edge life, despite consisting of small silicate and alumina particles and other Stuff From A Hole In The Ground (tm) just like every other concrete in existence. It's magic!

PS - I had no idea that there was such a thing as "natural concrete" until I searched for it just now. My faith in marketers and human nature has been validated in a rule-34-esque manner: "If it exists, there is natural of it".

[steven c newman]

All depends on the colour and quality of the sand that is used....may try the Red natural from down South....around here, we have a Brown Natural...

Depending on the PSI of the CNat......determines the "grain" size......3000 has very small grains (aka gravel) vs 5000 that has very large grains.

If you mess up, you may get a contamination of Fibre-Glas.....that tends to rise to the surface....

Note: IF you are a chewer of tobacco pruducts,,,, a little spit on the concrete makes a "Natural" lube.....hence the term "Slick Finish" ( BTDT....)

[Patrick Chase]

All depends on the colour and quality of the sand that is used....may try the Red natural from down South....around here, we have a Brown Natural...

Depending on the PSI of the CNat......determines the "grain" size......3000 has very small grains (aka gravel) vs 5000 that has very large grains.

If you mess up, you may get a contamination of Fibre-Glas.....that tends to rise to the surface....

Note: IF you are a chewer of tobacco pruducts,,,, a little spit on the concrete makes a "Natural" lube.....hence the term "Slick Finish" ( BTDT....)

Bravo, Steven. You're obviously a connoisseur of fine CNat. I had no idea :-).

[John C Cox]

We joke about it..... But there is a layer of truth in there....

When I was young - A neighbor of mine was Scottish.. He was an older fellow... Served in WWII.... His father was a jointer/carpenter of some sort or another and had apprenticed as such at a young age...

One day - I was watching him sharpen some tool with a rock... I was young and that was captivating.... And he put a good edge on whatever it was.. He said he had learned it from his father... And his father learned at the hand of his masters... Apparently, they walked to jobsites in those days before cars.... Weight went on your back - and so they liked to travel light.. And so they would find a proper looking rock or brick or some such to use on the jobsite.. They would flatten it and just use that to whet their tools while on the jobsite...

In the days since I learned to sharpen properly - I always filed this away as "crazy talk"... But since then - I have heard the same sort of things often enough to at least believe it probably happend ...

but then there is the other side too... What a 10 year old boy sees is not always what is happening.. There are things that a master has learned or was taught that he teaches the apprentice... What sort of rock... How do you find it... How do you prep it... How do you sharpen your tools properly with it...

I was amazed to see the sorts of things a master tool maker can do with a peen hammer...

[Andrew Seemann]

I'd be lying if I said I have never had to sharpen a chisel on site with a rock or concrete. Normally it is at some relative's house where they only have plastic handled chisels from Sears circa 1975 (they make the best paint can openers, don't you know!), and I've been roped into putting in a lock mortice or something similar without enough forewarning to bring my toolbox with. I must say though, those old Sears chisels take a better edge than their flat blade screwdrivers......... argh.

[Patrick Chase]

I'd be lying if I said I have never had to sharpen a chisel on site with a rock or concrete. Normally it is at some relative's house where they only have plastic handled chisels from Sears circa 1975 (they make the best paint can openers, don't you know!), and I've been roped into putting in a lock mortice or something similar without enough forewarning to bring my toolbox with.

I had *exactly* that happen at my Father-in-law's new house. His doorknobs wouldn't fit into their mortises (the usual square-corner-round-mortise issues) so he handed me this socket chisel that had apparently been handed down through 3 generations of his family, but not cared for (or fitted with a handle - the socket was very impressively mushroomed) in at least two. Garage floor to the rescue. It was grey Portland concrete though.

[John C Cox]

Perhaps that's the real "Secret decoder ring" for the Japanese paper steels.... The paper color denotes the type of concrete for sharpening...

White paper steel sharpens best on the old traditional pure Quicklime/Sand concretes which were thought to have originally come from the mainland - most of the recipes originated pre-Rome.... Legend has it that this cement was originally sold in white paper bags....

Blue paper steel is a post WWII innovation which coincides with the increased use of Portland cement by the Americans... This portland cement does not generate the correct sort of slurry which results in significantly reduced edge life on the traditional white cement paper steels...

And so forth...

;)

[michael langman]

Speaking of garage floors for scary sharp,:confused:,
I bought some replacement ceramic bricks for my wood stove at the local tractor supply store.
Not sure of the bonding agent used in ceramic refractory blocks, but was thinking of using one for a roughing in stone for my chisels and planes.
At 5 dollars or so, per1 1/4x4 1/2x9" block, seemed a cheap way to rough in some tools. Any thoughts or has anyone done this?

[John C Cox]

It depends on the steel.. ;). New modern steels don't respond well to traditional bricks...
;)

[Patrick Chase]

Blue paper steel is a post WWII innovation which coincides with the increased use of Portland cement by the Americans... This portland cement does not generate the correct sort of slurry which results in significantly reduced edge life on the traditional white cement paper steels...

Blue steel of course requires Blue Circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Circle_Industries) cement, as every experienced woodworker knows.

(I only know about Blue Circle because of a well-known gag in aerospace circles, wherein early production Panavia Tornado interceptor variants were said to be flying with "Blue Circle radars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI.24_Foxhunter#Production_delays)")

[steven c newman]

Maybe they should start selling 12" x 12" squares of Terrasco Flooring as a polishing stone?

Ok, ok...how about this? You go into a Borg, pick out a concrete block the ones shaped like a brick? Mix up a slurry of Portland Cement and fine sand, with enough water to make paste. Trowel that mix into the flat surface of the block.....then do a slick finish. Depending on the grain size of the sand used, will determine the "grit" of the sharpening stone. I doubt IF you could use it as a water stone......maybe use a mineral oil like lube? Schwarz may even use Olive Oil....

You may have to buy a steel finishing trowel to slick finish the slurry......about the same slurry one uses on Concrete Counter Tops.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Everyone knows the only appropriate fluid for top quality sharpening on concrete is the stuff that drips out of your car onto the slab. Naturally.

[John C Cox]

I found out that bricks and rocks are no longer used in the field by professionals when a chisel needs a bit of a touch up. The tool of choice is the hand held belt sander. Expecially if you need a "Factory sharp edge"... ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uei2HYv9RA

[Andrew Seemann]

I've got the Taunton DVD of Tage Frid. At one point, he talks about the importance of sharp chisels, then casually walks up to the stationary belt sander, hits the bevel free hand, walks over to the buffer, hits the edge to take off the burr, and then goes back to work. No oil stones, water stones, diamond stones, jigs, guides, special compounds, float glass, surface plates, grit progression, or any of that nonsense. It is interesting the different approach that people have when their tools are just tools, and not the object of their hobby:)

[Pat Barry]

Everyone knows the only appropriate fluid for top quality sharpening on concrete is the stuff that drips out of your car onto the slab. Naturally.
I have had success with the bevel on my chisels and plane blades but great difficulty with flattening chisel backs on concrete floors - How do you guys do this?

[John C Cox]

Everyone knows the only appropriate fluid for top quality sharpening on concrete is the stuff that drips out of your car onto the slab. Naturally.

I am being totally serious that the best sharpening lubricant I have found for use on ceramic type stones and such is spit... Good old saliva works better on ceramic stones than anything else... And I bet it would do the trick on concrete as well...

[Jim Koepke]

I am being totally serious that the best sharpening lubricant I have found for use on ceramic type stones and such is spit... Good old saliva works better on ceramic stones than anything else... And I bet it would do the trick on concrete as well...

It helps to look at an LV tool catalog to the point of drooling if one is going this route.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Do you have any concrete steps....well worn ones?

Also, anyone that "chews".....Mail Pouch makes a decent concrete "lube" DAMHIKT....