Help with a router table project

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been working on a project to replace a few shutters on the front of our house. I started out trying to do the project with hand tools but ran into snags. I just bought a new Bosch router table and router that fits the table. Most of my prior work with a router was done on an old Freud router table and an old router and I wanted to finally get this project done with familiar tools and methods.


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The router table is mounted on a cabinet I built for a variety of clamping, gluing needs. Yes, it has a Festool top so I can use Festool clamps to clamp things to it. On the right side of the table are the 8 panels I glued up and raised with hand planes. The green shutter on the left is what I am attempting to match. The yellow bits are three: rail & style & pannel raising bits. There is a piece of test wood on the table. I am tryng to figure out how one might go about getting the rail & style bits to cut matching profiles that glue up properly? I believe the standard method entails a major amount of trial and error. Maybe there is a quicker way?

The rails & styles on the original shutter appear to have warped, soaked up water and rotted. The orignal shutters are made of 1” thick stock, which box stores typically do not carry. I found a supply, probably a special trim board order, at Lowes by luck one day and bought all the decent pieces they had. I made the raised panels using the Lowes wood. I bought the stock for the rails and styles from the only supplier I could find who had 1” thick trim stock. The rail and style stock is actually water proof pressed MDF. I originally thought this might be a good thing as the waterproof pressed wood should not warp or rot. Now I am wondering if the rail & style stock can handle being routed without breaking?

[Jim Becker]

For complimentary rail and style cutters, having a setup block that is already pre-matched for height, etc., will greatly speed up the setup process. Many "purveyors" of rail and style cutter sets offer a pre-made setup block and IMHO, they are worthy of the few shekels they normally cost. Yes, you may still need to do minor tweaking because of stock thickness, etc., but it cuts out a whole lot of trial and error. Alternatively, make your own once you get things zeroed in on scrap stock identical in size to what you use in your projects. Mark them and put them where you can remember they are for the next time. :) I'm about to take advantage of that in a coming project to replace the upper cabinets in our kitchen with deeper ones. I need to run new face frames and new doors...and still have the setup blocks I made for the Shaker 15º set I bought back in 2003 for the original work.

As to the MDF stock...I don't know that I'd use that for this kind of project without supplementing the joinery with something like a Domino or other longer tenon for more glue surface that fully engages the stock above and beyond the coped joints that the cutters produce. Honestly, I'd probably do the same even if it was solid wood for an outdoor application like this. But that's me...

[Mike Holbrook]

Jim,
Thanks for the great advice. I did find “set up” blocks like you mention. Unfortunately, I had previously ordered a less expensive rail & styl set that does not appear to offer those. As you suggest I have been trying to make set up blocks with scraps, which I hope may also help me determine the viability of the material. I guess you remembered that I bought the same Domino you have not long ago. Thanks for the guidance there too, if I forgot to thank you at the time.

I have given some thought to just making a large rabbit in the rails & stiles. I was thnking Domino’s, glue and calk might hold the panels in place. I went with the “cheaper” bit set because I mostly wanted to experiment with how they would work with different materials vs rabbits....

I may need to build cabinet doors at our new home in North GA. I will go with simpler “Shakerish” designs there as the home will have a rougher more basic design theme. The shutters will serve as a skill builder.

[Jerry Miner]

If these are operable shutters, I don't think I would use mdf for this purpose, as it does not have much stiffness or strength. If the shutters are only decorative, and mounted to the wall, then you'll probably be OK. Trial-and-error is the method I use, but I start with a desired profile cut into a piece of scrap and set cutter height to match the cut in the scrap.

A bigger issue I see here is your router table set-up. It looks like you are feeding your stock between the bit and the fence. DON'T DO THIS!!
It is dangerous and could easily ruin your stock when the bit grabs and throws the stock. Instead, bring the fence forward-- flush with the router bearing-- and run the edge of the stock against the fence and cutter.

Jim's advice to add a Domino is good. I would do the same. Is your cope-and-stick (aka stile-and-rail) set made for 1" stock? Many sets are for 3/4" material only.

[Lee Schierer]

The problem with making a groove for your panels to sit in in an outdoor application is that water will get into the groove and stay there. Eventually the wood will rot.

The big box stores are not good places to purchase lumber. Generally you will get better product from a true lumber yard (not 84 Lumber). Since you live in Georgia you should be able to get some cypress. Suwanee Lumber (http://suwaneelumber.com/) isn't very far from you and their website says they carry cypress.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jerry,
The existing shutters are on hinges and they have keepers to hold them in place, however the shutters would not cover the entire window so they are more ornamental. Good point about the fence in the picture. I was actually just placing objects in the picture that could be refered to. The point you make about the bit position relative to the table is well taken. I would not set up that way to actually use the table and bit though. The piece of “wood” on the table is a narrow strip of the actual wood I am trying to make rails & stiles from. I have been making different cuts in narrow off cuts in an attempt to get matching profiles. I was trying to show the profile cutting bit up against the actual wood I am using.

Here are pictures of the box the bits came in. I thought I was buying bits for 1” stock. I was not thinking about using the panel raising bit for this project as I have the panels made, see top picture of the 8 panels I made. The panel raiser was in a kit for $5-10 and I thought it might be nice to have.

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I am a new Domino user. I do not see a way to use a Domino to Join the rail and stile these bits make. Is the suggestion that I just make a large rabbit, less profile & more room? I do have 1/2 and 1/4” guided round over bits and 1/2” guided rabbit cutting bits as well. I can make a top profile that looks like the existing shutters with a simpler router table mounted round over bit. Such a profile would leave more room for a larger rabbit that I could use Dominos to attach the panels to.

Lee,
I bought the boards I have from a local lumber and building supply vendor. I was told that the “trim” I bought was what is being used to make outdoor trim by mills and builders. It is the required 1” thick. This is different than most “MDF”, it is actually waterproof. I soaked a piece in a bucket of water for several days to test it. The “wood” did not absorb any water at all. It can also flex a good amount without breaking. It is more like one of the plastic & wood products “Trex” than regular MDF.

I have a Steel City lunchbox planer, but it is at our new home at the moment. I was trying to avoid having to buy thick stock and thickness plane it to the needed thickness.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, cut the slots for the Dominos before you mill the profiles for the cope and stick... ;) They do not have to match up with the profile in any way...they only need to reference the same face on each piece to line up.

[Ole Anderson]

I built new doors for my son's kitchen using soft maple rails and styles and MDF raised panels. The panel raising bit worked fine in the MDF using 3 or 4 passes, but you better have good dust collection in place. When I redid all of my fascia boards after a hail storm, I used Miratech 4/4 x 6" trim boards at about $2.25/bf. They were a composite trim designed for exterior use. Flexy, but easy to work with. As with most composite boards, the surface seems more dense than the interior. I have no idea how it would stand up to rail and style bits. However with an exterior glue, it should stand up to the weather and not rot. I would give it a try.

$5-$10 for a raised panel set? Must be a typo, they sell for over $50, still cheap at that price. I can assure you, those are NOT industrial router bits as I am sure you are aware. I have the Summerfield set that has served me well but it was 3x the price.

Using a composite, don't try to do the full profile in one pass, with any of the bits, use 3 or 4 light passes.

[Jerry Miner]

OK Mike-- glad to hear that you're not running stock between bit and fence.

Lee makes a good point about the bottom groove holding water. There are 3 approaches to dealing with this: 1. Drill some weep holes in the bottom rail, 2. Caulk the panel in (with a good flexible caulk-- as the panel will expand/contract) 3. Use rot-resistant rail material (which you are doing).

You can cut Domino joints after milling the parts. Half the joint is in the panel groove (use a Domino sized thicker than the panel groove width) and the other half in the stub tenon. You'll be limited on depth in the stile portion (by the plunge depth of the Domino)-- but you'll have enough to strengthen the joint. (Plunge depth will be less on the rail portion-- to account for the length of the stub-tenon).

You may still want to use the panel-raiser on your panels in order to get a good fit in the panel groove. (You can remove the back-cutter if you want)

[Mike Holbrook]

Sounds like I can cut Domino holes before or after cutting the profiles in the rails & stiles. This is where I was worrying about tearing the composite wood up. I got use to doing one pass round overs for other projects. I am starting to understand in this project I need to just do multiple passes. The Bosh router table insert actually has a graduated scale on either side of the bit. I have been using it to make sure the bit protrudes exact distances, so I suppose I can just move the fence set distances to make multiple passes?

The entire bit set, was around $48. I could have bought just a rail & stile bit from the same vendor. The difference in price above was an approximation of what it cost me to add the panel cutting bit to the set. I am Amazon Prime member which does occasionally produce “deals”. I am aware that these sets may cost double or tripple from more recognized vendors. Most of the other bits I have were made by Whiteside, Amana.....I bought the cheap bits to give me an idea of whether I wanted to invest in a more expensive set later. Understand too that I prefer to do projects with hand tools. I was looking at this project more as a one time thing. Still there is the time it takes to do a project and I may need to make cabinet doors in the near future. I figure I can make a better router table from the parts in the Bosh router table. The actual table is metal as is the insert. The fence is also nice. There is a good dust pick up too...

I am more comfortable doing grooves , dadoes, round overs on a router table anyway. I know those can be done easily and fast on a router table. The jury is still out on whether or not I will try to make cabinet doors with the gear I have in the future.

I am wondering if more experienced machine users than I would attempt to make rails & stiles, with the 2.25 hp Bosch router and router table and materials I have, or drop back to using Dominos to hold the panels in simpler rabbits? I suspect the better simpler router bits I have and the medium sized router might work better than trying to push the limits with the more complicated profile bits, which are lesser quality? I bought the cheaper bit set as more of a trial run at using those bits. They seem to work if I do multiple passes but not sure if they will make it through the project without destroying the wood.

[Jerry Miner]

I am wondering if more experienced machine users than I would attempt to make rails & stiles, with the 2.25 hp Bosch router and router table and materials I have,....

Well, I probably qualify as a "more experienced machine user"--- but I have not tried cutting cope-and-stick joints in mdf. I would expect it to be a little bit challenging for your router and bit set--- but probably do-able. I would try a joint or two in scrap and see how it goes (I like to cut these joints with a single pass-- no moving of the fence-- and with a coping sled (and bigger router) but I think there is hope here).

If you don't have--or want to make-- a coping sled, you can use a square piece of stock--or plywood-- as a "pusher" to make the cope cuts. If you feed slow and smooth, your router should be able to make the cuts in a single pass. I would try it.

You can always fall back to Plan B and use rabbets/grooves with/without a beading profile.

[Mel Fulks]

If you have the EXTERA brand mdf ,I've used it for projects that have been out side for years,and I like it. I think there are
some mdf brands that claim some "water resistance ",I would not use those.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jerry,

I planed a piece of SYP to match the miter slot in the router table a couple days ago. I got caught up in sled design and have not finished it yet. Maybe I should glue & screw it to a piece of plywood and see how it works before getting too absorbed in making somethng nice. What size is yours? Any chance of a picture or link?

Mel,
I suspect this is a similar or identical product. I ripped the surface & paint off a piece with a band saw and placed it in water for a day or two. When I took the piece out of the water, the water drained off leaving an almost dry surface, no water was absorbed.

[Jerry Miner]

Mike-- I use the Woodpecker's coping sled (https://www.woodpeck.com/copingsled.html):

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I prefer a system that uses the fence rather than a miter slot. It's easier to keep things lined up: flush the fence to the router bearing and everything else just rides on the fence. If you use the miter slot, you will need to either make the fence exactly parallel to the slot or ignore the fence and use an alternate stop system for setting cut length.

Before I jigged up to use the miter slot, I would just use a square piece of scrap as a "pusher" (I did this quite a bit before I got a sled). A piece of adhesive-backed sandpaper on the edge of the pusher will help keep the stock from sliding as you feed it past the bit. You can clamp the work to the pusher also---but I typically just used hand pressure to hold the work-- a little risky, perhaps, so use a clamp if you're not comfortable.

[Jerry Miner]

Here's a sketch of what I mean by a "pusher":

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[Mike Holbrook]

Very helpful Jerry. I have been shopping coping sleds. The fence on my Bosh router table does have a T slot in the top, trying to figure out what might work with that slot. Good point about the sled working on the fence, not the miter slot, just the kind of thing I may have missed.

My buddy, who got me started in woodworking, is missing the end of a finger, lost to a router table. My right hand still has issues due to a chipper shredder ripping a limb out of my hand and whacking me in the head with it....just a couple months ago. A sled sounds like a great idea. I may use a GRR Gripper I bought years ago for my table saw until I figure out how to attach a sled.

PS
Now I see! The coping sled does not attach to the fence, at least the Woodpeckers one does not. There is a depth adjustable guide that just runs up against the router tables fence. Too bad they just do not include the better guide/fence with the sled. Higland, here in ATL carries them at the same price as Woodpeckers. Amazon’s price is actually higher.

It looks like these sleds are specifically designed to do end grain, copes? I guess the sled can be used like a GRR Ripper push tool, to hold a longer board against the fence too though.

[Jerry Miner]

The coping sled does not attach to the fence,

Correct-- but the guide is at a fixed height and just rides against the fence.


Too bad they just do not include the better guide/fence with the sled.

The "guide" is included. The fence on your router table looks like it would work fine.


t looks like these sleds are specifically designed to do end grain, copes?

Yes. Hence the name: "coping sled"

[Mike Holbrook]

Got it. I am trying to figure out how to work with rails, tenons, half laps..... specifically what the limits of the “coping sled and its guide” are? I am aware the sled itself has a 5 1/2” W x 1 1/2” thick capacity. The Woodpeckers video on using this sled mentions a larger, longer guide that it says is “optional”. The video suggests that this larger guide may be necessary for making lap joints, tenons....

I am trying to figure out if I should locate & order the larger guide too, if I order the sled or go pick one up. I suspect I can make my own guide with clear plastic or some other tough clear material if I find I need it. All it takes is more time.....

I am trying to figure out what other guides/jigs might be handy for handling longer pieces......

[Jim Dwight]

I do this as a hobby but built one kitchen with oak raised panel doors plus other pieces. I have a bit set like you show and a stacked set and may still have one you take apart and reconfigure for the coping versus the sticking.

The bit on the right in the picture from the box is the sticking bit. The one on the left is the coping bit. I cut the coping first because the sticking will help remove chip out. I use a sled but did not always. A square piece of wood or plywood about 6 inches square or bigger will work fine. You just need something to help you hold the piece at right angle to the fence and to help reduce chip out. I would take a scrap and give it a try. You need to decide how much of an edge you want on the face where it goes straight back before the decorative cut. That is a key dimension for the bit setup. I think both your bits are made to cut with the face of the stock on the router table top. If they are well made and you put a rubber O ring into the collet of your router, you may be able to switch between bits with minimal height adjustment. I don't know of a better way to figure this out than to take a bit of 3/4 scrap, softwood is fine, and make a little door frame. If you mess up a joint, cut it off and try again. I usually start with overly long pieces so I can do this on my real work. Even though I've done this many times it can take a cut or two to get back into the swing of things.

Your router should do the cope and stick cuts in one pass. I've used a PC 690 many times for this and it is less powerful than your Bosch. You have to slow down the raised panel cutter and take multiple passes, however. Even if your frame is 1 inch your panels do not have to be.

I like to use pressure treated outside. If I was doing a bunch of shutters like you describe, I might buy some 1.5 inch thick pressure treated and plane it down. It tends to be wet but this time of year is better than summer time to get it. Sometimes you can find some that has been sitting in a home center for several months and is less wet. PT takes paint well once it is dry. I would not use MDF. I don't like it in general and especially not outside. It is bad to work with. I've made raised panels out of it and shutter louvers out of it but you really need dust collection on your router table when milling it. The dust is nasty.

I like Amazon but normally get router bits from MLCS. They are inexpensive too with quick service. If you go to their website they have good instructions and videos on making raised panel doors.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks Jim,
Good suggestions. I will check out MLCS. I just bought a GRR Ripper 200, GRR-RIP BLOCK Smart Hook and a Micro Jig Deflector Connector. This combo looks like it will do most of the things a coping sled does and maybe a few things a sled does not do. The GRR items will also help me on the bandsaw, tablesaw and lunchbox planer. I have had a single GRR Ripper for quite a while and found it useful on the table saw.

I probably should not have mentioned MDF in regard to the material I am using for rails & styles/copes. If you read up a post or two you should find another poster who knew what the material is. It is a totally waterproof product. I even tested it to make sure. It is the product builders use now for outside trim. My panels are made, see original picture. They were made from 1” stock but my hand planes have reduced them a little and probably will for the final product too.

You are correct about the dust issue. I was at Ace Hardware yesterday buying an adapter so I can hook up a Festool vacum to my router fence. Still does not quite fit but I will make it work ;-)

[Mike Holbrook]

I thought I would do an update regarding the MicroJig/GRR Ripper items I bought. There is a new “Advanced” GRR Ripper. The new model offers more router related features. First off, there is a sliding base piece which can be pushed up against the outside edge of the wood being worked, similar to the sliding base on coping sleds. The sliding base is great for holding small pieces tight & secure against the fence. The sliding base is available as an upgrade kit too. Another optional piece is the Deflector Connector, which is a clear piece of plastic that can connect two GRR Rippers or serve as a clear fence/blade guard similar to the one used on a Woodpeckers Coping Sled.

I thought about buying the Woodpeckers Coping sled, which I am confident is a better system for working copes. I decided to upgrade my GRR Ripper/MicroJig gear instead as I think they are more versatile/adaptable to tablesaws, bandsaws, routers, planers.......I think one can approach the same abilities the Woodpeckers Coping Sled offers by using multiple GRR Rippers. I think two GRR Rippers will be better at handling longer pieces of wood. The idea of using the same system on tablesaws, band saws, routers and planers was also attractive to me.

GRR Ripper also makes a simpler push block/push stick replacement. The GRR-RIP BLOCK Smart Hook Pushblock for Router Tables, Jointers and Band Saws. This pushblock has hooks on either end that extend or retrack, depending on whether they contact a surface or not. The hook(s) can engage against the rear edge of a board to provide the increased pressure ncessary to push larger work pieces over a router bit or tablesaw blade. The grips/rubber on these devices have a little higher relief and may provide improved purchase. I bought one of these as I thought it would work well with the older GRR Ripper or the new advanced model.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike

I'd be interested to see a photo of your Gripper adaption to a coping sled. I have a shop made coping sled for my shaper, but I always like to see someone else solutions.
If you're making doors on that small table, that's pretty darn good. That's not a lot of surface area.

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi Mike,

I would suggest you go to YouTube and search GRR Ripper Advanced, GRR-RIP BLOCK.......You will find lots of videos about these products that cover the features better than any picture I could provide. You may find the sliding base feature the most relevant.

The Bosch table is 27” long x 18” deep, larger than most tabletop units. If I find the bench top table to be to small, I will insert the detachable, metal table in a piece of plywood that will fit in the cabinet it is sitting on, which is 44” wide x 22” deep. The router will then be accessible through the door of what use to be a bathroom cabinet, built to accept a sink. The on & off switch and the two plug receptacle (under the table) are mounted in small panels that can be removed from the base and attached in another location too. The whole metal table top, not just the router base insert, is made such that the whole thing can be mounted in a larger cabinet. I am playing with what cabinet height will work best for this multi-function cabinet, soon to have interchangable table tops and maybe casters. The rear of the cabinet now has a folding counter top attached, only visible in the last picture, which serves to hold work pieces...It is a work in progress.

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[Mike Holbrook]

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I made these two set up blocks from 1 1/8” scraps using the new GRR Ripper 200, with slidding plate.

Addapting GRR Ripper for coping:

https://youtu.be/McLgffSg65A (https://youtu.be/McLgffSg65A)


Pick this video up at about 3 minuets, to see how the slidding plate on the newer GRR Ripper (GRR Ripper 200) can help on a router table.

https://youtu.be/YE7xYu_DR_Q

I found the following video very helpful regarding using cope & stick router bits in a router table.

https://youtu.be/NwxOGYhVEe4

[Nick Decker]

I have a Gripper and use it quite a bit, but I gotta say that some of the stuff in those videos makes me nervous. I have this feeling that if something went wrong and the wood got thrown, you might see the Gripper itself becoming a missile too. I say that having had, early in my routing experiences, a chunk of oak that I was cutting get thrown out of my hand when the cutter hit the grain wrong. Anybody else?

[Mike Holbrook]

Nick not sure what you saw in the video that put you off? I found a label on the end of one of the boards. The “wood” product is Miratec, probably similar to the Extera Mel mentions above. I was very pleased with how it worked on the router table. It was much easier to work, with less tear out than the SYP I am also using. I have been able to leave thinner pieces with the Miratec too. The SYP tears and splinters much worse, not to mention the cupping....I did have to use a top finger board on the Miratec as longer pieces tended to rise up (due to the product flexing) in the center when ends got far off the router table. An off feed and top finger board fixed the issue.

I can see the advantage of a good router lift. There are too many tricks and things to remember using the set up I have.

[Nick Decker]

Mike, I was just relating what I was seeing to my own experience of losing control of a piece of wood while routing it. I know more now about why it happened (my fault), so maybe my discomfort with the video is just me. Another thing I've learned is that if what you're about to do makes you feel uncomfortable, don't do it.

On the other hand, I find the recent rash of safety police raids around here to be tiresome, and would not like to be perceived as preaching to anybody. I plan to look into getting one of those larger sliding plate thingies, looks like it would be a useful add-on.

[Mike Holbrook]

Nick I hear you. Machines worry me too. Yesterday I was sawing a weird piece of wood on a Dewalt compound miter saw which I have done more times than I could count over the last 30 years. Somehow the saw grabbed this piece and threw it. My right hand is still recovering from a chipper shredder ripping a push stick out of my hand and whacking me in the head with it.... months ago. I tried doing this project with hand tools but I was not able to match the shutters that were made by a mill with larger machines.

I bought the GRR wood guides because I thought they were better at more things. If I continue to use a router table to make copes & sticks I may buy a better router lift and maybe the Woodpecker Coping Sled. The bottom plate on the GRR does come in handy though. There is a small hook on the outside corner of the plate which helps keep the piece steady. The big difference in the GRR and a real coping sled is one still holds the workpiece by hand when using the GRR. The GRR device is made more to help on a table saw being oriented more towards moving right to left along a fence and preventing movement up off the table. I tried using a second GRR device to hold copes in place, but the pieces I was using did not fit the device well. There is probably a way to do this that I have not figured out yet. A “real” coping sled is made more to hold the work piece against the fence without having to hold it there by hand, which may have been where your concern was.

[glenn bradley]

Grr-Rippers enjoy a love/hate reaction among forum posters. I'm a fan. The large plate and attaching fixture shown in post #24 has been sold as the GR-200 for many years. I think I got mine in 2007. These pics are from 2008 and I'd had it awhile and enjoy the safety of milling small or thin material with consistency and confidence.

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The t-slots allow all sorts of shop made mods and add-ons. There are various notches to allow temporary fastening to backer boards and whatever.

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For those thinking about joining us folks that use the heck out of our Grr-Rippers, just watch for a sale. They are offered in pairs or with a model upgrade (GR-200 at a GR-100 price) or with extra parts now and again if you can bide your time. I have a collection of spare legs, plates and other parts that I have picked up along the way at a steal at woodworking shows or from someone who bought one and didn't like it.

All that being said my shop made coping sled uses a miter bar so the fence is only there to bring the dust collection port close.

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Your Grr-Ripper/coping sled solution looks like a winner.

[Nick Decker]

Mike,

I have the Woodpeckers' coping sled and, like most of their tools, it's very good. I wish they had included a clamp for whatever you use for a backing piece to prevent tearout, but that can be rigged up if you feel it's necessary. As is, you can't get enough lateral clamping force to keep your scrap piece from riding up. Also, the larger plexi shield/fence is a must, IMO.

[Mike Cary]

A coping sled makes things much easier. You don’t have to shop around if you don’t want to. You can make one for a couple bucks worth of HF toggle clamps and some scrap.