Dilemma - to rehab this old chisel or not?

[John C Cox]

Hey guys, I want your opinions on this. (I told you I couldn't leave well enough alone buying old chisels.)

Should I rehab this old chisel and try to put it back to work... Or should I simply leave well enough alone? What are the chances she will turn out to be a good chisel if I remove all this old "patina?" Better to put her up on the shelf for a collection?

It's a 1" bevel edge long pattern chisel stamped "Sheldon". The only info I could find is a G. Sheldon who made chisels in England in the mid 1800's... Is it him? No idea...

Pattern wise - it's too heavy to be a paring chisel.... The bevelled edges are not particularly bevelled. The blade is 8 1/4" long and the entire iron counting socket is 11 1/2" long.... The handle looks like hickory and is fairly well fitted. Defiantly a machine made handle - not hand carved. It's missing the hoop, though. No evidence of hammering on it - or even of any use at all... The handle could well be a recent addition.. The patina is old and even..

https://s13.postimg.org/x1bfgwj53/image.jpg
https://s13.postimg.org/y3llzg9o7/image.jpg

[ken hatch]

Hey guys, I want your opinions on this. (I told you I couldn't leave well enough alone buying old chisels.)

Should I rehab this old chisel and try to put it back to work... Or should I simply leave well enough alone? What are the chances she will turn out to be a good chisel if I remove all this old "patina?" Better to put her up on the shelf for a collection?

It's a 1" bevel edge long pattern chisel stamped "Sheldon". The only info I could find is a G. Sheldon who made chisels in England in the mid 1800's... Is it him? No idea...

Pattern wise - it's too heavy to be a paring chisel.... The bevelled edges are not particularly bevelled. The blade is 8 1/4" long and the entire iron counting socket is 11 1/2" long.... The handle looks like hickory and is fairly well fitted. Defiantly a machine made handle - not hand carved. It's missing the hoop, though. No evidence of hammering on it - or even of any use at all... The handle could well be a recent addition.. The patina is old and even..




John,

You need to ask two questions first: Is the back pitted close to the cutting edge. If it is take a buffing wheel to it, remove the rust and give it shine. Then gift someone a new house ornament. Next take a careful look again at the back and see if it is flat or did someone round it off towards the cutting edge. same story unless you enjoy hours of rubbing a chisel on stone cut your loss and look for another chisel.

As I've posted before late 19th and early 20th Century tools can be wonderful users, many times better than new ones but, there that damn but, pick 'em wisely or you will spend all your time rehabbing tools and little making furniture. But as alway what blows your skirt and YMMV.

ken

[John C Cox]

I checked the back with a straight edge. It appears to be pretty flat for the first 4-5" or so... Does not appear rounded at the cutting edge. That's not to say it's straight under the rust, though...

pitting... Indeterminate at this point.... Likely, though...

I suppose I could give it a good soak in Evaporust to see where I stand...

[Don Jarvie]

Give it a shot. You have nothing to lose. If anything you can practice on sharpening.

[Jim Koepke]

There is rust and then there is RUST!

It really depends on how deep the pitting is against what kind of use it will see.

If you plan on joining large timbers it might not be too bad even with bad pitting.

My instinct would have been to pass on such a rusty chisel.

That looks like some heavy rust. If it is more than can be easily removed with a wire brush, it doesn't usually come home with me.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Have done worse ones than that..
378284
The "Before"....
378286
And, the "After"....

Have ya got it done..yet?

[Mike Holbrook]

378293

Here is a 11.5 x 3/4” corner chisel (in front). It originally looked similar to yours on its surface. I bought it at auction hoping I might get a serviceable timber framing chisel from it. I pulled it out of a 24 hr. Evaporust bath a few days ago. There is some significant pitting, but fortunately none of it is around the edge or sides near the edge. I oiled it after it came out of the bath. I am not sure I actually will use a corner chisel but the price was right and I wanted to try restoring a challenging old timber framing chisel. At least I will have a better idea what restoration limits are for large chisels after I finish restoring it.

The chisel behind the corner chisel is a 1.25” TH Witherby framing chisel that was in decent shape when I bought it. I am calling the one behind the Witherby a framing gouge. It is 1.5” wide, made by Buck Bros. The slightly smaller chisel, in the far back, may be more of a firmer chisel than a framing chisel. It is 1” wide. I can not read the makers stamp. I will probably make new matching handles for the ones I find I use.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Do you have any good 1" chisels already? If not, go ahead and fix it up. It seems like it might turn out fine. I'd try taking a razor blade and scraping as much rust off as I could, then go at it with a scotchbrite pad. For the back, find something flat and stick some 80 sandpaper to it...that will take the back down to clean metal pretty quickly unless there is extreme pitting.

[John C Cox]

Well... I do have a few good 1" chisels now.... But as you guys probably know - there's always room for one more...

I did some more digging on this thing... Apparently it's called a Sash paring chisel.. And would have been used by jointers along side of a Sash mortising chisel - to clean up and finish window sashes after mortising... That explains why such a huge long "paring" type chisel would have a hooped handle... So it's kinda an odd duck....

[lowell holmes]

I came across a chisel that is 2" wide and 12" long. I think it was a timber framing chisel. It was rusty, and had no handle.
I cleaned the rust off and whittled a handle for it. I cut a piece of oak and cut it to a hex shape. I then rounded the hex to round.
I bought a chrome bathroom drain pipe and cut a sleeve that I put on the top of the handle. The chisel still lives and is used on occasion.
The mass of the chisel makes it easy to pare hex or octagons to round.

I say clean up your chisel and make a handle for it. You will enjoy doing it. I used a wire wheel on a grinder to clean the rust off.

[Jeff Heath]

All of my timber framing chisels started out looking worse than the one you have. As already stated, if the back is not pitted and can be flattened, you could have a really nice chisel on your hands. A wire wheel on a grinder will remove the surface rust, and when I'm rehabbing a bunch of old tools ( something I seem to have a sickness for) I remove the handles and give them a good soak in evaporust. After that, back to the wire wheel and then to a 3M buffing wheel on the grinder. That will leave them with a nice polished look, and with no rust to keep coming back on you ( I live in the upper midwest with HUGE humidity swings.)

[John C Cox]

Well... You guys talked me into it... It's now taking an Evaporust bath... We will see how it looks when it comes out..

[Brandon Speaks]

Another thing you can try is vinegar. I have never used evaporust but did use vinegar recently and it worked really well. Let is soak a few hours then wipe off what you can. Then another 24 hours so and it pretty much wipes right down to clean metal, a little manual hit with a wire brush and it was finished. I then dropped into a baking soda solution to neutralize the acid (not sure if this part was needed or not) then oiled it up.

[bridger berdel]

I've rehabbed worse. I will say that heavy back flattening without appropriate machinery is a task I'll not likely try again soon.

[bridger berdel]

Vinegar doesn't need to be neutralized. Muriatic ( hydrochloric) does, and is pretty hard to get it to stop cutting. Just stick with vinegar for derusting.

[ken hatch]

Well... You guys talked me into it... It's now taking an Evaporust bath... We will see how it looks when it comes out..

John,

I didn't talk you into it :D. Be interested to see your take after. BTW, you should listen to Bridger, he has as much patience with rust as anyone I know. Personally I have too little time to spend it rehabbing a questionable iron when there are so many good ones available. But as always whatever blows your skirt.

ken

[Stew Denton]

John,

Discretion is the better part of valor. I am with Ken, Bridger, and Jim. If after the soak it comes out with only minor pitting, it might be worth flattening on the back. I have spent HOURS flattening the backs of plane irons, and the battle is not easily won, nor without great price sometimes.

I have come to the conclusion that if I need to have a spare iron for a plane, especially a big plane, I will buy a CS replacement from LV or LN, or some similar supplier that flattens the back of the blade before you buy it. If you are buying the iron on that auction site, you will likely pay at least half to two thirds the cost of a good new iron from one of the above places, one that needs almost no flattening. Saving a dollar an hour flattening the back of an iron over buying a quality replacement is something I am never going to do again if I am in the place of having to buy a replacement or spare iron.

If I already have the iron and is not to bad I will give it a go, but no more rust buckets for me.

Small chisels are not awful to flatten if the back is not badly pitted, but you are talking about a small surface area. Big stuff is something else again. If you have a lot more time than money it might be worth the battle.

However, remember if you use sandpaper on a glass plate, or something similar, that sandpaper costs money too. You can spend a lot of time and money for sandpaper, or whatever, to flatten the back of that chisel.

It won't hurt to soak it in evaporust or vinegar, and follow up with cleaning as the folks above mentioned. However, if it were me I would examine it carefully after the soak, wire brushing, and buffing. If it were pitted significantly I too would buff it up good and make it into a decoration. BTDT, flattening the back of a large and badly pitted steel or cast iron blade is no fun, and often takes hours bent over a stone, sand paper on a plate, or diamond stone in my experience.

Bridger, as per your comment, I am not planning to do that again any time soon either.

Stew

[steven c newman]

And only takes me ...10 minutes...tops...

That 2" wide "slick" I rehabbed? 2 hours, maybe....counting the new handle...

"Hours"? :eek: I think not.....:rolleyes:

[Stew Denton]

Steven, I have seen enough of your rehabs to know that you are better at it and drastically faster than I am.

Also, my experience with old chisels is that they tend to be a little softer than a big plane iron from a Stanley #6 or larger. I worked on two big plane irons one afternoon in December, probably 3 hours at least. I had made good progress on one but the other one had a quite a ways to go, but that worst one was not remotely close to flat. The one I made good progress on was not flat either, but it was not nearly as bad as the other. The "out of flat" was actually the much bigger problem than the corrosion. It had a big old convex surface that was a pain in the exterior back side.

Only in my dreams could I fix one in 10 minutes. If I used a flat belt sander or something it might go greatly faster. However, with sandpaper on a granite block.......or even with the diamond stones I was using.......not so good.

Stew

[ken hatch]

And only takes me ...10 minutes...tops...

That 2" wide "slick" I rehabbed? 2 hours, maybe....counting the new handle...

"Hours"? :eek: I think not.....:rolleyes:

Steven,

Show us your secret, inquiring minds want to know.

I doubt I've ever flatten the back of even a new iron, chisel or plane, except maybe a LV cutter, in less than 10 minutes. But then I'm prone to flat head syndrome and have spent my life ridding in the short bus. Whatever, I'm always open to learn.


I've found most old iron in addition to some rust stains and maybe pitting have a belly because of improper sharpening by someone in its past. Irons from the UK can be the worst because sellers often tart 'em up with a belt sander to make the cutter look better. Then they can ask more for the tool dontchknow. How long it takes to true depends how big a belly you have to work through. BTW, a belt sander can make an impressive belly very quickly.

ken

[Robert Hazelwood]

Seriously...80 grit PSA paper stuck down onto something like a granite plate makes pretty quick work of this. I've got a surface plate that is about 4" wide and 18" long, which is a perfect size for back flattening. With the length of it you can really hog off material, enough to get the metal hot to the touch.

Don't hesitate to change the paper once you've used the entire surface; it seems to remove more material in the first minute or two of work with a fresh sheet than in the next ten.

Lastly, you only need to remove the pits from the first inch or so from the edge (you can even do less). You will want to establish a flat surface for a few inches past that, but that surface can contain pits and it won't cause any problems.

[steven c newman]

OK, the very next "Rusty & Krusty" chisel that comes through the shop...I will do a little photo blog on the way I do the job. Might take twice as long...having to stop and take a picture.

I really don't "mess around" doing a rehab.....have learned over a decade or so, how to get these done as fast as I can. Oh, and I do not use a "soak" on things.

[Bob Leistner]

I have to say that I'm in Mr. Newman's court as far as rehabbing an old blade. I don't think I've ever spent much more than an hour. I don't have the patience to screw around with anything, so I get'er done. I never had a job where I got paid by the hour so hustling just becomes a way of life.

[ken hatch]

Rehabbing old tools is a great hobby, if that is what you want to do with your shop time. Good on you, there are a lot of old tools than need some love but the bottom line if you want to make furniture, rehabbing a questionable tool is usually not productive.

I've done most of the things to true a back, diamond plates, 80 grit PSA sandpaper on granite, loose diamonds on MDF, loose diamonds on glass. Pretty much you name it, BTDT. Now I will admit my skills may not be up to the level of some on this board but I been to this rodeo a few times. In my experience, let's take 80 grit sandpaper on granite (the same objection applies to most of the other ways as well), it will remove metal quickly if the paper is changed often but you end up with a back that is not much flatter than when you started and has deep scratches that must be removed with the next grit. To take the iron to truly flat surface you will have almost as much iron to remove as when you started on the 80 grit and you still have the deep scratches to deal with. Again maybe I'm a little picky or have very poor technique but in my experience using 80 grit sandpaper is a waste of time. The same applies to most other short cuts, quick ways, or what have you. A iron that has been abused is not worth the effort unless that is your hobby or you just enjoy a challenge. I'd rather make furniture.

I think my post on old tools is still up, I like old tools because they work better than most new ones but I don't start with junk, Pick the tools carefully and make sure they are worth the investment in time to bring to a useful tool.

ken

[steven c newman]

In case nobody noticed....when I am doing a project..everything goes towards getting that job done....but, I tend to use the "downtime" between projects to maintain the tools I have..and do a little rust hunt as cash allows. I am NEVER into a "production mode" BTDT, never again. I am retired, so my time is what I want to do that day...woodwork..rehab work.....road trips to find another useful tool....does not really matter.

At some point, all those "production shop" people do have to stop and maintain whatever tools they use. Unless they have "Staff" to do those menial chores for them.

I vary the type of projects I do, in order to give some of the tools I used on the last project a "break" while I work on the next job. If I have a little time ( glue-ups curing...)THEN I can refresh a tool or two....before they would be needed.

The main reasons I am so fast with a rehab....after a lot of years of practice, I know what works the best for each tool I rehab...took a long time to get to this point...but in a way, it was also FUN...and THAT is why I do this work...rehab...build a cabinet....because I am having fun. I told one Factory job that I was there as long as I was having fun...the day after it no longer was fun to show up at that time clock....I had quit, and moved on.

The chisel I thought I was going to get today...I had already bought and rehabbed quite a while ago....flat back and all..
378586
Sold by a Hardware Supplier out of Cleveland, OH..Brand name of "Cleancut". A few small pits, but none in the edge area...1-1/4"? wide.
378587
A nice, big, firmer chisel..
Now, let's see IF the OP's chisel turns out this good..

[Patrick Chase]

I've done most of the things to true a back, diamond plates, 80 grit PSA sandpaper on granite, loose diamonds on MDF, loose diamonds on glass.

Try loose diamonds on cast iron. MDF doesn't work (for long) because the irons recede into the surface too easily, and stop cutting. Glass doesn't work very well because it's about Rc53, which is high enough that the diamond particles don't reliably embed in the lap. Iron (or mild steel if you're cheap) is a good middle ground.

FWIW I do initial flattening with super coarse (Down to 60#, 250 um) diamond discs on a rotary sharpener, and then move to diamond compound on cast iron laps. It's not the cheapest way to go, particularly when you consider how long those discs don't last, but it saves a lot of time.

[Mike Henderson]

I've rehabbed a bunch of chisels. I got the bug to get a set of firmer Swan chisels (rectangular cross section) marked "Best Cast Steel" or "Best Tool Steel", and a set of bevel sided Witherby chisels. When you chase down chisels sometimes you find that what was sold to you was not quite as good as the seller claimed. So I got pretty good at flattening the backs of chisels that had some rust. As long as there's no pitting on the cutting edge the chisel will work fine. Sometimes there's pitting further up the chisel but I figure by the time I sharpen that far, I'll have worn the back down with the sharpening to get that far.

Antique chisels will not hold an edge as long as the modern chisels but they certainly can be effectively used to build furniture. They were all our ancestors had and they produced some fine furniture.

Mike

[Stew Denton]

Steven,

I would be interested in your technique, if I can learn to save some time. The biggest time burner for me is getting old Stanley plane irons flat, and I have spent quite some time flattening one from time to time. The big ones are the main problem, particularly if it is convex....a true pain. I always think, though, thank goodness I only have to do this one once.

I have a few extra irons, and need to flatten them. Time is always to battle though.

The chisels I have done have not seemed to be the problem the plane irons are, but maybe it's just because I haven't done a really big chisel yet.....but that is coming.

I am glad you get to do quite a bit of fun stuff. I enjoy watching your projects progress!

Regards,

Stew

[Jeff Heath]

Every year, at the OWWM gathering swap meet, the same guy brings tupperware containers filled with vintage chisels. He has 2 piles....$5 & $10. I can't help myself, so I always end up loading up. This past year, I completed a timber framing set, size wise, including a couple of bigger Greenlee gouges and skews.

I'm not suggesting anyone run out and buy a 2"X72" belt grinder, but I have one for grinding plane irons and occasional knives that I make (hunting). It has a 2 hp 3 phase motor, and I control it with a VFD. I keep the platen flat, and on slow speed, with an 80 grit belt, it makes short work of flattening the back of even a 3" slick. I'll then throw on a 340 grit ceramic belt, just to eliminate the big scratches. Less than 2 minutes, including a few dunks in water to keep the iron cool, and the rust and any small pitting is gone.

Like I already said, I'm not suggesting you run out and spend $1K plus on a belt grinder, but if you know somebody who has one, buy a couple of $6 belts and ask for permission to use it. What a time saver for getting the rough part of the job done. Obviously, you have to be careful not to round the edges over, but at slow speed, with a flat platen, it's not that difficult to control.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm not suggesting anyone run out and buy a 2"X72" belt grinder, but I have one for grinding plane irons and occasional knives that I make (hunting).

Out of curiosity, which one? Did it come with the VFD or was that a retrofit? (asking because I don't know of any VFD-equipped grinders for the $1K that you cite. They're all $2500 and up AFAIK).

[Jeff Heath]

I started with the Oregon Blademaker chassis, and built my own add on's. You can buy his basic chassis for about $500 (2 years ago...perhaps a bit more now, as I haven't looked). A 3 phase motor ( I have a shelf full of them, as my entire shop is 3 phase) can be had for $25 to $50 if you know where to look. The VFD was $150 (TECO FM50) I bought 7 or 8 years ago to run a lathe. I have a full (vintage) metalworking shop as well as woodworking shop (I'm not just unplugged, as I earn my living this way), and I make my accessories as I need them. Total invested, including new bearings for everything, aluminum wheels vs. plastic ones, etc.....is less than $1000. I buy my belts online from "Pop's."

I am currently using a 1750 rpm motor, as the VFD will run it up to 3000 if so needed (which I never have) for short runs, but I can slow it wayyyyyy down if needed for stuff like this. Really works great in saving time for me. I made a few jigs for holding molding irons for initial bevel grinding and it really works well for me. I also hunt and fish a lot, and I can really put an edge on a knife very quickly before honing it by hand.

I was hesitant to build it for a long time, but I am finding new uses for it all the time. Very worthwhile addition to my shop, and money well spent.

Edit: I just checked.....$495 for a yellow one, $549 for a black one. I have the black one. $729 with a motor, but IMHO, 3 phase with a VFD for speed control is a MUST.

[John C Cox]

Jeff buddy...

Sounds like you have a perfect setup there....

How about I just send you this chisel for a good once over on the belt sander. ;) ;)

I bet a decent Router VFD would actually work pretty well on most 110v home belt sanders... The issue is typically that the motor doesn't cool right at low speeds... Not that the motor wouldn't work right.. Alas - I don't have a normal belt sander either. :(

Tis the life of a Semi-Neander I suppose...

[Mike Henderson]

Jeff buddy...

Sounds like you have a perfect setup there....

How about I just send you this chisel for a good once over on the belt sander. ;) ;)

I bet a decent Router VFD would actually work pretty well on most 110v home belt sanders... The issue is typically that the motor doesn't cool right at low speeds... Not that the motor wouldn't work right.. Alas - I don't have a normal belt sander either. :(

Tis the life of a Semi-Neander I suppose...

For the cooling problem when you run a 3 phase motor at low speed with a VFD, just get a fan and aim it at the motor. The air blowing over it is usually plenty enough to keep the motor cool.

Mike

[Also, those router speed control units will only work with a universal motor - they will not work with an induction motor. You need a VFD and a 3 phase induction motor if your unit is not a universal motor.]

[Jeff Heath]

Yes, and to add to what Mike already said ^^^^^, even with a 3 phase motor, they can and will overheat if run at low speed too long. The fan cools the motor. It has to spin fast to do that. Short runs of a few minutes or less do not hurt the motor, and I run it back up to full speed before shutting it off.

[John C Cox]

This is definately all you guys fault!

So I went ahead and cleaned it up. And our friend Sheldon made a nice chisel here.... The back - while lightly pitted - is quite flat...

It's one odd duck. There is a very visible line on the chisel now from the Evaporust... This chisel may well be a hard cast steel tip forge welded onto a softer iron/steel shank and socket... Or it could be that Mr. Sheldon only hardened the chisel that far.... It's obviously different when you polish it out... There's a visible transition in the steel on the back.

Anyway - it cleaned up well enough. The back isn't too bad... And it sharpens nicely to one heck of a hair popping sharp edge that at least passes my #1 test - pare end grain spruce without edge catastrophe....

https://s13.postimg.org/j254hlvd3/image.jpg
https://s13.postimg.org/58grskahj/image.jpg

[steven c newman]

Looks good, so far!

[Jim Koepke]

It looks better than what my expectations were for it. Good job, it looks like it can be a good user for years to come.

The difference in appearance could be due to some other issue such as how it was stored over time.

It is easy to do a simple hardness test between the two areas with a file. Heck if the lighter area is soft metal you would only need to test it there to verify your suspicion.

jtk

[John C Cox]

Don't hesitate to change the paper once you've used the entire surface; it seems to remove more material in the first minute or two of work with a fresh sheet than in the next ten.

That is a very good tip.... The flattening took a little under an hour on my surface plate + 100grit PSA because of the pitting... And the back isn't pit free by any means... But this tip makes a huge difference... Change the paper as soon as it slows down cutting... A ride on a good belt sander would probably really clean it up... But I don't have one of those...

[Jeff Heath]

John

Good job. My experience has been that after evaporust, I can polish the metal up with a grinder and 1. wire wheel first 2. Scotchbrite wheel second.

Some of us care about such things, and it will polish up nicely if you so desire. Has nothing to do with performance, just aesthetics.