Whitewood vs dimensional

[Michael Fink]

Building a workbench and needed a few boards for a front apron in ~1x6 size. Went down to Lowes intending to buy some whitewood boards, but I saw the price and nearly died. So I strolled on over to the dimensional section and picked up a 2X12 for about 1/4th the cost of the whitewood that I would have needed, brought it home, squared it up, planed it down and used that instead. Looks good, but, I really did start to wonder, why in the heck are the "boards" so much more expensive than the "lumber"? Isn't whitewood basically just a squared up and planed down 2x4? If you have the tools to do it (planer/jointer/table saw), would you ever buy the board over the lumber? Or is there some difference? My planed down boards wound up looking pretty much exactly the same as the whitewood (although I left it a little thicker because, why not, I already had the thickness and no reason to just make sawdust for the heck of it).

Is that huge increase in price just because of the effort involved in keeping the square edges intact? Or the greatly reduced volume of a 1x4 board compared to a 2x4 stud?

Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

[Matt Day]

If you have the tools, you don’t buy from the BORG in the first place. Except for construction type lumber of course.

[Michael Fink]

What do you mean by that? Buy lumber off a sawmill and dimension it yourself? I've done that, and I haven't bought "boards" from BORG in a long time, I usually get them from a specialized supplier. But, to the original question, if you have the tools and need a 1x4 "whitewood board" is there any difference between a 2x6 jointed/planed/ripped and that board (other than the obvious time required to get the 2x6 dimensional)? I though that whitewood was basically just pine that has a good face? Also, there's a big advantage to doing it yourself, when the board comes off the jointer/planer, especially when you're going from 2X to 1X, it's gonna be straight and square, it's sometimes hard to find a straight board at Lowes, even at the high cost.

[John Kee]

Whitewood is a generic term used for anything from Aspen, Birch, maple that is uniform whitish in colour, at least in Canada. Could be different in the USA. Typical properly kiln dried. The 2 x 12 you picked up is a softwood and even if it said kiln dried was probably has a much higher moisture reading. The standard for kiln dried softwood could put at between 13 to 18% moisture.

[Michael Fink]

Whitewood is a generic term used for anything from Aspen, Birch, maple that is uniform whitish in colour, at least in Canada. Could be different in the USA. Typical properly kiln dried. The 2 x 12 you picked up is a softwood and even if it said kiln dried was probably has a much higher moisture reading. The standard for kiln dried softwood could put at between 13 to 18% moisture.

Whitewood here is never maple, at least not that I've ever seen. It looks like pine to me, maybe aspen. 2x12s are always SYP here, and yes, I don't think it was as dry as the whitewood (although if you sort through the pile, you can find a "light one", which is what I did). But 2x4's and all dimensional is kiln dried, isn't it? Just not to the same level?

[Cary Falk]

Was the 2x12 kiln dried or wet? The 1x4 was more than likely kiln dried. I have taken larger dimensioned wood from the BORG so I could get it dimensioned to something that wasn't warped, twisted, cupped, etc.

[Michael Fink]

Was the 2x12 kiln dried or wet? The 1x4 was more than likely kiln dried. I have taken larger dimensioned wood from the BORG so I could get it dimensioned to something that wasn't warped, twisted, cupped, etc.

I'm sure the 1x4 was kiln dried. But is there any green lumber at Borg? The only thing that I ever see "wet" there are PT wood and 4x4's, I don't think I've ever seen a green 2X material there. Could be wrong, and I've picked up some 2x8's once that I thought were sweating they were so wet (but claimed "kiln dried"). But is this just a bad drying, or do they sell green lumber there (and I'm just not seeing it or realizing it)?

Edited to add, yes, exactly, I can take a really bowed up 2X material down to a flat 1X pretty easily, if it's already 1X and messed up, it's pretty much garbage or has to be used in other projects because there's no "getting it right" without turning it into the depth of a plywood veneer on the planer.

[John Kee]

Michael, like I said Kiln drying for the softwood industry 13% max and is not the same as for hardwoods. I found this out on a mill tour where Lowes get most of its softwood. As with any wood purchase its best to take a moisture reading before using. This eliminates the aggravation and guess work.

[Cary Falk]

I know around here there are different piles of 2x4. Some are labeled KD and some are not. I don't know the moisture content on either.

[Ted Derryberry]

You lost me at "went down to Lowe's...."

[Bradley Gray]

You lost me at "went down to Lowe's...."

+1 - When you see their sign hit the gas

[Michael Fink]

You lost me at "went down to Lowe's...."

LOL, well, this is a workbench, cheap and easy were the highest priorities. I have plenty of good wood that I could have used for this, but I just wasn't going to sacrifice it; Lowes would do.

Really interesting about the kiln dried vs. non. I'll take a look next time I'm there and see if my store has both, I almost wonder if I've been just randomly picking up lumber without realizing there are 2 piles! That would be kind of funny..

[Andrew Hughes]

Sometimes I buy 1x4s ready to go. I could buy a 2x4 or a 4x4 and rip them down and save a few dollars. But theirs no guarantee that will end up with good straight boards. Id rather let the mill do that part so I can pick the best from the lot.

[Ted Derryberry]

I "lose money" on milling my own lumber vs. buying it milled to my specifications because I make up all the lost time during joinery and assembly using boards that I know are straight and sized properly vs. hoping they didn't shrink, swell, warp, twist, cup, or bow between the mill and my shop.

I'd be very surprised if any of the big box lumberyards sell anything that isn't kiln dried. In fact, I think that would be a special order.

[Lee Schierer]

Building a workbench and needed a few boards for a front apron in ~1x6 size. Went down to Lowes intending to buy some whitewood boards, but I saw the price and nearly died.

I'm located in NW PA and there are two hardwood suppliers that sell hardwood in finished dimension sizes. Their prices are about 2/3 of what Lowes or Home Depot sell the same type of wood for. A 1 x 6 x 8' red oak board will cost $2.63 per lineal foot. HD sell the same red oak board for $3.72 per foot. Yellow Poplar, which is better than the typical "whitewood" sells for $1.74 per lineal foot in 1 x 6. The lumber I buy is also at 7% moisture not 12% that your dimensioned lumber will be at.

Find a local hardwood supplier and check their prices.

[John K Jordan]

Around here "whitewood" is sometimes y. poplar. The guy at HD said it is whatever their buyers can find at the cheapest price.

[Art Mann]

I buy SYP just every once in a while for shop structures, jigs and fixtures. When purchased, it is nowhere near dry enough to do precision work, no matter what the label says. I put this lumber upstairs in the unventilated loft above my shop and leave it for at least two months and preferably more. It is quite hot up there and the wood dries out to a usable state. After this, I reprocess the lumber by jointing and planing just as if it were unfinished lumber. A 2 X 4 becomes 1-3/8 X 3-3/8, for example. After doing this, the material is straight, flat and dry enough to do precision woodworking. The term "white wood" means so many different things to so many different people that doesn't convey any useful information. Where I live, "white wood" often means "white pine". For my purposes, it is so soft and weak, compared to SYP, that it is not useful.

[Ted Derryberry]

Art, if you're anywhere near Atlanta you can buy rough sawn kiln dried C&better SYP at Peach State Lumber. Generally $1.70 to $2.00 bd ft depending on the dimension. Unfortunately it's stored in an open shed, but I've had good results with it even without long term acclimation in my shop.

[Mike Henderson]

LOL, well, this is a workbench, cheap and easy were the highest priorities. I have plenty of good wood that I could have used for this, but I just wasn't going to sacrifice it; Lowes would do.

Really interesting about the kiln dried vs. non. I'll take a look next time I'm there and see if my store has both, I almost wonder if I've been just randomly picking up lumber without realizing there are 2 piles! That would be kind of funny..

At my local Home Depot the 2x4's come either as KD (kiln dried) or not KD (usually pretty wet). I don't know how dry the KD's are but I've used them for cauls (after jointing) and they seem to stay straight and hold their dimensions pretty well.

I've done what you suggest - milling some of that construction lumber into 4/4 material - and it's okay for certain things. Overall, I'd prefer to get material already dimensioned.

Mike

[Art Mann]

Here is an example. I might make a miter sled using a 2 X 4 that I dried and milled straight, square and flat. I would never do the same thing with stock 2 X 4 construction lumber that has been dried to 17%. It is just too questionable. You might have better luck in a California climate. Your situation may be different but I have found too much discrepancy in the dimensions of any finished lumber, regardless of species, cost or quality. I am just more confident of material I dimensioned.

[Marshall Harrison]

Building a workbench and needed a few boards for a front apron in ~1x6 size. Went down to Lowes intending to buy some whitewood boards, but I saw the price and nearly died. So I strolled on over to the dimensional section and picked up a 2X12 for about 1/4th the cost of the whitewood that I would have needed, brought it home, squared it up, planed it down and used that instead. Looks good, but, I really did start to wonder, why in the heck are the "boards" so much more expensive than the "lumber"? Isn't whitewood basically just a squared up and planed down 2x4? If you have the tools to do it (planer/jointer/table saw), would you ever buy the board over the lumber? Or is there some difference? My planed down boards wound up looking pretty much exactly the same as the whitewood (although I left it a little thicker because, why not, I already had the thickness and no reason to just make sawdust for the heck of it).

Is that huge increase in price just because of the effort involved in keeping the square edges intact? Or the greatly reduced volume of a 1x4 board compared to a 2x4 stud?

Inquiring minds want to know. ;)

Can someone explain this to me so that I am not confused?

Please define "boards" as opposed to dimensional lumber?

Is "boards" the same as regular 2x4 studs for walls etc? and dimensional lumber stuff like S4S?

And what is SYP?

Still confused on some of the terminology. Thanks for clarifying.

[Ted Derryberry]

I really should know this (my parents owned a retail lumberyard from the time I was 11 until I was in my '30s). I think technically a "board" is S4S (smooth four sides) 1x material and "lumber" is 2x framing material. Rough sawn material would also be "lumber". In common usage though the terms are pretty much interchangeable.

This I do know, SYP is Southern Yellow Pine. Often used for framing, but also for siding, moldings and trim, at least in the South. Currently my primary work is building passage doors out of SYP for a restaurant chain. Another one you might see is SPF, which is Spruce/Pine/Fir and is also used for framing. It's just what it says, a mix of species, but the pine will be a "white" pine instead of yellow pine. Generally, at least in the South, at the Borgs 2x4s and 2x6s are SPF and 2x8s and larger are SYP. All treated lumber is SYP.

[Art Mann]

I am almost done building a house in North Alabama and there is no framing lumber in it other than SYP.

[Bill Dufour]

I have seen units of 2x4 at the borg that under the first layer felt damp to the touch. I have even seen redwood this damp with strings of white mold growing on the faces. Of course this is second growth redwood and actually is the white sapwood.
Real redwood keep that damp would support rot for thousands of years if it stays damp. 150 year old redwood water pipes are still in use in California.
Bill D

[Ted Derryberry]

Art, that was the norm when I was growing up. Later in my career in commercial construction we used a lot of SPF primarily because it has less tendency to warp than SYP. Of course this was only if allowed in the specifications as it doesn't have the strength of SYP. One client I built several buildings for allowed SPF for studs but required SYP for top plates. Bottom plates being treated were always SYP. Always seemed kind of backwards to me as I'd think you'd want the strength in the studs for load bearing (think roof top air conditioning units) and the plates wouldn't be as critical since they were tied every which way with joists/rafters/trusses/etc. Not to mention all the sheathing was 1/2" plywood tying everything together.

[Ted Derryberry]

Funny story. Once I was building a restaurant next door to an existing restaurant. My framing package was delivered and I unloaded it on a paved common driveway that was half on my property and covered it with black poly to keep it somewhat dry. Probably the next day the manager of the restaurant next door came over to ask about all the stuff stacked in the driveway. It wasn't blocking his customers and it was my property, but nothing gets a restaurant manager worked up like restricting, or seeming to restrict, access to his store. Anyway, we were talking and I was explaining that it would only be there a couple of days until we got started framing. He pointed to the black poly and asked, "what's under there, more sticks?". Somehow I managed not to bust out laughing as the first thing that came to mind was a hut in some third world country built out of "sticks".

[Marshall Harrison]

I really should know this (my parents owned a retail lumberyard from the time I was 11 until I was in my '30s). I think technically a "board" is S4S (smooth four sides) 1x material and "lumber" is 2x framing material. Rough sawn material would also be "lumber". In common usage though the terms are pretty much interchangeable.

This I do know, SYP is Southern Yellow Pine. Often used for framing, but also for siding, moldings and trim, at least in the South. Currently my primary work is building passage doors out of SYP for a restaurant chain. Another one you might see is SPF, which is Spruce/Pine/Fir and is also used for framing. It's just what it says, a mix of species, but the pine will be a "white" pine instead of yellow pine. Generally, at least in the South, at the Borgs 2x4s and 2x6s are SPF and 2x8s and larger are SYP. All treated lumber is SYP.

Thanks for clarifying Terry.

I was in Lowes this week to get a couple of 2x8x8 (evidently they don make 2x8x6) and I was looking at what they called whiteboard. Terrible stuff (S4S) as all of it was bent and or warped and a little wet. I looked at some rough lumber that was I'm guessing S2S(?) but it was too expensive for what I wanted to do with it. I just left disgusted at wasting my time.

All I wanted to do was to try and use my Ryobi electric plane to see if I could clean it up to glue up for some farm table tops. It was so messed up that I figured even if I knew what I was doing I couldn't make it work.

[Ted Derryberry]

Framing lumber starts at 8' lengths and goes every 2' up to as much as 24'. Anything over 20' would probably be a special order at a real lumberyard and I don't recall if the big box places carry anything over 16'. Then there are pre-cut studs in "odd" lengths (92-5/8" for an "eight foot" wall) to work with a single bottom plate and two top plates to create a wall of about 8'-1", 9'-1", or 10'-1" in height. The "extra" 1" is to allow for 1/2" sheetrock on the ceiling and the sheetrock on the walls to be 1/2" off the floor so it doesn't soak up any moisture if the floor is wet for some reason. Seems like I've seen eight foot long 2x4s labeled as "studs", and they could certainly be used for that, but traditionally a "stud" was pre-cut as described above.

You really should be shopping at a hardwood supplier for woodworking materials, not a "lumberyard". However, the material is going to cost more (better quality and more desirable species of wood) and it's going to be rough sawn, or "skip planed" and "straight one edge" at best, and require some serious equipment (not a hand power plane) to make it usable. Apparently there are some hardwood suppliers, Lee has mentioned one in his area, that will custom mill lumber to your specifications, but they don't around here. Some custom molding companies will run square dimension stock, but they're not going to fool with a few boards and if they did the set up charges would be prohibitive. You can also use hand planes to work the material rather than power equipment, but that's completely out of my area. From what I've seen a set of quality hand planes is going to cost about the same as lower end power equipment. I think there's a forum here dedicated to that sort of thing.

[Marshall Harrison]

Framing lumber starts at 8' lengths and goes every 2' up to as much as 24'. Anything over 20' would probably be a special order at a real lumberyard and I don't recall if the big box places carry anything over 16'. Then there are pre-cut studs in "odd" lengths (92-5/8" for an "eight foot" wall) to work with a single bottom plate and two top plates to create a wall of about 8'-1", 9'-1", or 10'-1" in height. The "extra" 1" is to allow for 1/2" sheetrock on the ceiling and the sheetrock on the walls to be 1/2" off the floor so it doesn't soak up any moisture if the floor is wet for some reason. Seems like I've seen eight foot long 2x4s labeled as "studs", and they could certainly be used for that, but traditionally a "stud" was pre-cut as described above.

You really should be shopping at a hardwood supplier for woodworking materials, not a "lumberyard". However, the material is going to cost more (better quality and more desirable species of wood) and it's going to be rough sawn, or "skip planed" and "straight one edge" at best, and require some serious equipment (not a hand power plane) to make it usable. Apparently there are some hardwood suppliers, Lee has mentioned one in his area, that will custom mill lumber to your specifications, but they don't around here. Some custom molding companies will run square dimension stock, but they're not going to fool with a few boards and if they did the set up charges would be prohibitive. You can also use hand planes to work the material rather than power equipment, but that's completely out of my area. From what I've seen a set of quality hand planes is going to cost about the same as lower end power equipment. I think there's a forum here dedicated to that sort of thing.

Thanks again Ted (sorry about messing up your name previously).

There are a couple of places around here that I can go but I haven't visited them yet. I also have a local Woodcraft store but their wood prices are high. I don't have the room to store large quantities of hardwoods so I 'll have to buy on a project basis.

Again, thanks for the clarification.

[Ted Derryberry]

Woodcraft and Rockler are crazy high on their wood. Usually they're buying it locally from the same place you can get it. They probably get a better price, but after their mark up you can still get it cheaper.

[Brian Holcombe]

The thrifty but effective way to work with rough lumber us to joint one face by hand (with hand planes) then thickness plane with a lunchbox planer. With some experience it’s a quick process and does not require the space or financial commitment of a jointer and planer.

[Mike Henderson]

The thrifty but effective way to work with rough lumber us to joint one face by hand (with hand planes) then thickness plane with a lunchbox planer. With some experience it’s a quick process and does not require the space or financial commitment of a jointer and planer.

That technique may be thrifty, but I was really glad to get my powered 8" jointer. It's so easy, quick and accurate to prepare stock with that jointer compared to when I had to do it with hand planes.

If I was starting over, knowing what I know today, a powered jointer would be one of my early purchases.

Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

I bought a minimax FS41 Elite S for doing this work recently, and still there are better and more expensive ways than that, they're less thrifty still. :D

I prepped stock by hand for a good number of years at this point, not that difficult.

[Curt Harms]

Around here "whitewood" is sometimes y. poplar. The guy at HD said it is whatever their buyers can find at the cheapest price.

I expect that's the real definition of "whitewood", the cheapest wood we can find that's sorta white.

[John K Jordan]

I expect that's the real definition of "whitewood", the cheapest wood we can find that's sorta white.

I guess my stash of boxwood, holly, dogwood, crepe myrtle, bradford pear, birch, beech, and hard maple only meets half of the definition then. :)

[Terry Hatfield]

Interesting discussion. I recently built a bench for reloading some precision ammo. I did not want to use my stash of hardwood nor did I want to spend the cash to buy enough new hardwood for the project. I visited my local evil wood procurement facility known as Lowes and spent a bit of time picking through the 2x stacks to get the necessary lumber. I planned ahead for a good amount of waste as I joint, rip, plane to the proper dimensions. It's a pain but it works. I carefully stickered and weighted the work pieces as I got them milled to minimize them having a mind of their own. Worked out fine but only because I planned ahead, bought well oversized and took the necessary precautions.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4750/25206095977_19d8ca523c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/EpnQaF)

[Michael Fink]

Nice bench! Very similar to what mine wound up looking like (the wood, not the design). Seemed to work out well, we'll see if the boards go crazy over the years.

I do agree, it's a bit of work to "dimension" down a 2x4, but, honestly, most of the "whitewood" I get, at a minimum, needs a rip and joint/plane to get it really square, so, it's not as much a time savings as it would seem if the whitewood isn't "dead on" (which, sometimes it is, but not often).

It was fun to do anyway, assuming it holds up, I'd recommend it; it's amazing to see that ugly 2x6 turn into a really pretty squared up/planed board.

[Ted Derryberry]

In my experience pine, both yellow and white, generally stays reasonably put once its nailed in place. If it didn't most houses in the US would tear themselves apart within a year.

[Terry Hatfield]

Nice bench! Very similar to what mine wound up looking like (the wood, not the design). Seemed to work out well, we'll see if the boards go crazy over the years.

I do agree, it's a bit of work to "dimension" down a 2x4, but, honestly, most of the "whitewood" I get, at a minimum, needs a rip and joint/plane to get it really square, so, it's not as much a time savings as it would seem if the whitewood isn't "dead on" (which, sometimes it is, but not often).

It was fun to do anyway, assuming it holds up, I'd recommend it; it's amazing to see that ugly 2x6 turn into a really pretty squared up/planed board.

Thanks. Unlikely an individual board is going anywhere once it's incorporated into the bench. I make a point to apply finish on all sides so moisture release/absorption should be uniform. I've used milled construction lumber for quite a bit of stuff in my shop without issue where climate control is hit or miss. I only heat/cool when I'm out there working. This is the first time I've built a piece with construction lumber that moved into the house. So far so good.

[Michael Fink]

Thanks. Unlikely an individual board is going anywhere once it's incorporated into the bench. I make a point to apply finish on all sides so moisture release/absorption should be uniform. I've used milled construction lumber for quite a bit of stuff in my shop without issue where climate control is hit or miss. I only heat/cool when I'm out there working. This is the first time I've built a piece with construction lumber that moved into the house. So far so good.

Good to know. I figured if I used a 1/2 gallon of glue on each stretcher connection, it would either have to blow up into splinters or hold still. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. ;)

[Curt Harms]

I think "KD" construction lumber is dried to 19% or less so it doesn't support mold growth. We woodworkers think of "Kiln Dried as around 6% when it comes out of the kiln. I like to keep a few 2 X 4s stickered in my basement shop that's heated or dehumidified. After a few weeks the 2 X 4s have dried to close to ambient moisture. Doing the usual joint and plane yields pieces that are generally stable. It's handy to have cheap stock for things like utility cabinets and mockups.

[J.R. Rutter]

Good to know. I figured if I used a 1/2 gallon of glue on each stretcher connection, it would either have to blow up into splinters or hold still. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. ;)

Bench: "Hold my beer..."

j/k :)