Thoughts on these mezanine supports?

[Mark Canada]

So my crowd funding campaign to get the new workshop and tools went up yesterday.. I smashed through the goal today which means I'm officially getting a nice workshop packed full of tools.

I had a look at two units today, one was a bit old and shabby - the other is pretty much perfect for what I want. It's a bit too big but gives me room to grow into it. The main floor is about 3600sqft (mixed office and workshop), with 2800sqft of mezzanine area (will be perfect for my spray booths, laser, finishing, stock storage).

My main concern is the amount of supports the mezzanine has - there's not a lot of gaps between them. I don't really work with sheet goods so I'm not too worried about how awkward it will be to move a 8x4 sheet around.

The spacing between the support columns is about 4m x 3m - or 12ft x 9ft (the gaps, not centre to centre). The previous tenant was selling bolts and fittings and such, so I'm guessing they had pallets of metal bits and bobs up there and needed a really high floor loading.

There's a spot I can fit an 5x10 or 8x4 cnc router if the campaign continues to do well (still waiting on a newsletter to 75,000 readers next week making mention of it) and I get the funds for a chinese ATC, its not ideal but it would give a clear run through from front to back if I did put sheets of stuff in, or full bed jigs.

Pictures of the mezzanine:
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Bay door to the left of photo. Stairs to the right. Big CNC would go next to the stairs in line with the bay door.

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The boxes on those pillars are the 3 phase - two already installed right where I'd put the compressor and dust collector room.

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From corner of the unit, through the doorway is the office.

It looks like it was a pretty expensive mezzanine to install, I'm hoping somewhere it might have some load ratings or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?


Tools wise on the ground floor, i'll be looking at:
Table saw (duh)
Big drill press
Lathe (mostly for goofing off with)
16" bandsaw
mid sized compressor
smallish cyclone to start with, a friend wants to help me build a large one (video for his youtube channel)
jointer/thicknesser combo
89" belt sander
mitre saw which will need about 12ft on one side of it
router table

somebenches, probably down draft, for sanding and hand tools. I don't do a lot of work with hand tools - chisels are for removing double sided tape for me, i don't own hand planes, or nice saws, etc...

Any thoughts on how those tools would work with the mezzanine supports and spacing - is it a blessing or a curse? I figure it's going to be super handy for dropping dust collection, air lines, power etc.. but not sure how its going to be detrimental to workflow.

[Wayne Lomman]

Speaking from current daily experience working with mezzanine floors, I recommend against them for actual working area. Working up and down stairs is a mental barrier that the majority of workers don't cope with. They are OK when they are up there and OK when they are not, but moving goods and people from one level to the other is time consuming. We have every kind of handling equipment and access available and it hasn't helped. In the end we have made the assembly shop - which is on the mezzanine - fully self sufficient. It has its own parts store, welding bay, tool store etc. The fitters only need to come down at meal breaks. This uses about half the available mezzanine area. The rest has ended up a 'junk' store - the stuff is kind of necessary but you only need it once a year or so and if you didn't have it you wouldn't really notice.

This is not unique to my current factory. All previous ones have had similar issues and ended up not used at all as there was enough ground floor space. So in summary, it is really difficult to move personnel vertically from floor to floor and much easier to move them around on the same level. Also, working around the forest of supports will be restrictive. Either get an engineer to tell you how to do away with half of them or find another shop. Cheers

[Jim Becker]

Speaking as a distant observer, I have to agree with Wayne. An upper level is nice for parts storage, office use, smaller operations like your laser, etc., or even living quarters...but no way would I want to be carting heavy work up and down to there. At a minimum, there would need to be a very roomy freight elevator to even get me to think about that!! While I like the expanse of this space, the spacing and volume of the support columns would be maddening to me for so many woodworking purposes because of the constraint it may place on material handling and things like in-feed/outfeed. The issue I personally would have with this space is not that it has a mezzanine...which is a handy thing...but with the sheer size of the mezzanine. It's over 70% the same size as the main floor. That's probably not what you preferred to hear, but I really would have those concerns with this property.

[Bryan Lisowski]

Ask the landlord to see the as built plans for both the building that should include info about the mezzanine, if he doesn't know already. They may lead to the company that installed if specs aren't listed, and a call to them may get you the specs.

That is a lot of mezzanine, I would be most concerned about work flow with all the columns.

[John K Jordan]

It looks like it was a pretty expensive mezzanine to install, I'm hoping somewhere it might have some load ratings or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?


You might hire a structural engineer to evaluate and advise. The last time I wanted one to size a beam and span I asked an architect friend for a referral. The cost was reasonable.

[Malcolm McLeod]

S... or I can see if it's possible to pull down the middle row of pillars?
...

Please don't pull down the middle row of pillars. I can clearly see a bolted joint in the beam. The deck won't hold a decent sized rat if you pull the column!

Either leave as-is and gets specs from blueprints/landlord, or follow Bryan's/John's advice and hire an engineer.

(I don't know your location or legal requirements, but I'd bet even removing a nut/bolt from the mezzanine will require permitting and inspection...?)

[Darcy Warner]

Crowd funding?

[Malcolm McLeod]

Crowd funding?

2018 "Crowd funding" = 1929 "Say brother, can you spare a dime?"

[Mark Canada]

Crowd funding: Glorified preorder system where everyone can see how many preorders you've taken haha.

I spoke to the people who own the building, they have no blueprints or specs. The previous tenants went out of business - always a sobering moment when you realise the place is only vacant because the previous company didnt make it (TOTALLY different industry though). They are willing to give us the keys and take whoever we want in there to look at it, or poke around ourselves and see if we can find any markings on it of who might have engineered it.

All the equipment will be downstairs, finished pieces will move upstairs for laser engraving then go into the spray booths. I'll likely setup hand sanding right next to the spray booths, as that will then be above the dust collector (or get a small dust collector just for hand sanding). Once they are up there, they'll stay up there until shipped. I totally agree with not moving pieces up and down! I had not thought of doing finish sanding upstairs, but it makes a *lot* of sense, thanks for the insight.

As far as modifying and building mezzanines - no planning permissions required, no permits required. Don't kill your employees overly much and you'll be fine. Massive over the top health and safety culture here, but some things seem to get totally ignored??


As to pulling the middle pillar, it wouldn't be done without seeing a structural engineer first. I was thinking more along the lines of putting a steel plate/brace across the current joint. Either welded, or bolted.


Current thoughts are we take the unit (working out the details with them now), its so much bigger than we need, so we can basically just have 3 lanes for the production steps of the products - lumber -> dimensioned wood, dimensioned wood -> cut to size, cut to size -> cnc machined, cnc machined -> hand added roundovers on a router table. Then upstairs for logo engraving and finish application.

If we get to the point of being annoyed by the posts, we get a structural engineer in and based on their input either:
* completely remove part of the mezzanine or
* Remove the centre row of posts

Its certainly scary taking on my first unit, moving country and moving out of the home shop in one step! Buying tools is going to be a lot of fun though.

[Jamie Buxton]

In my area, the word mezzanine sets off alarm bells about fire sprinklers. Building code and fire insurance require fire sprinklers. Around here, you must have sprinklers below mezzanine floors, and they're not cheap to install.

[Mark Canada]

Hmm, my reply seems to have not gone through.

I havent seen any sign of building regulations needing fire sprinklers anywhere here. The unit has no fire system - there are two "break to set off alarm" near exits, but that's all I've seen in this unit, and far more than anything else I've looked at or seen online. Based on the pipes I've seen at the buildings i've worked at with sprinklers, I don't even think the inbound water supply pipes would cope with sprinklers.

The mezzanine has an escape ladder in the back corner near one of the two rear fire doors, but thats it.

[Jamie Buxton]

Hmm, my reply seems to have not gone through.

I havent seen any sign of building regulations needing fire sprinklers anywhere here. The unit has no fire system - there are two "break to set off alarm" near exits, but that's all I've seen in this unit, and far more than anything else I've looked at or seen online. Based on the pipes I've seen at the buildings i've worked at with sprinklers, I don't even think the inbound water supply pipes would cope with sprinklers.

The mezzanine has an escape ladder in the back corner near one of the two rear fire doors, but thats it.

Things like building codes vary a great deal, so my experience might or might not apply. But I've tried renting shop space in a building, only to have the landlord tell me he would not rent to a wood shop because the building does not have sprinklers. It'd be disasterous to move in, and then find that somebody has to install those giant supply pipes.

[Martin Wasner]

Crowd funding?

I should start a crowd find account for a cnc. "Say brother, can you spare $150,000.00?"

[Mark Canada]

Things like building codes vary a great deal, so my experience might or might not apply. But I've tried renting shop space in a building, only to have the landlord tell me he would not rent to a wood shop because the building does not have sprinklers. It'd be disasterous to move in, and then find that somebody has to install those giant supply pipes.

Talking with some people today, fire sprinklers are not an issue here. If you want to change a wheel on a grinder though, you need to have a certification. Clearly they have their priorities straight???

The landlord is keen to rent to a woodworker, he doesn't want someone who strips cars in the place as he classes that as a messy/dirty business and clutters the carpark and such. Very specific example, I feel he has experience haha. He's fine with me poking holes in the roof or walls for laser exhaust too, which is nice, just needs to have a cover over it once we move out.

[Mark Canada]

I should start a crowd find account for a cnc. "Say brother, can you spare $150,000.00?"

Well, if you have product idea and a good marketing strategy that will sell the items to fund the cnc - why not? "Hand" crafted wood products are back in style! You can get a hell of a cnc router for 150k!

[Darcy Warner]

I should start a crowd find account for a cnc. "Say brother, can you spare $150,000.00?"

It's too much like internet pan handling to me. I could never think of using anything like that. I will just work more and save more.

[Darcy Warner]

Well, if you have product idea and a good marketing strategy that will sell the items to fund the cnc - why not? "Hand" crafted wood products are back in style! You can get a hell of a cnc router for 150k!

About what it costs to get into one that will actually hold a full sheet good with room to spare and have a big pump and numerous tool holders.

[Jim Becker]

I think there's a small misunderstanding about the "Crowdfunding" in the context of this situation. I don't believe that the OP means asking for money in the way that many folks do when something bad happens, etc....ie, donations. I believe it's referring to something more akin to Kickstarter (or PledgeMusic in the music business) where by folks pre-order an actual product and the deposits in turn fund the setup and initial production. These early buyers are essentially investing in the business with the expectation that they will receive a product in return for early support. There are many things for sale these days that started out with Kickstarter type funding for the manufacturing...you may even own one or more of them and not realize it.

[Martin Wasner]

About what it costs to get into one that will actually hold a full sheet good with room to spare and have a big pump and numerous tool holders.

Yep, and more importantly, punch out a sheet of parts in 6-8 minutes.

[Mark Canada]

Yup, dead on - like I said before, crowd funding in this instance (unlike the "uncle jimmys house burned down and he has no insurance" kind) is just a pre-order system with big discounts. I've done 2 on Kickstarter previously and this time I'm on IndieGoGo because Kickstarter's post campaign tools and support are awful. It makes fulfilling orders very difficult.

I'm selling some of my existing products under half price, but without the high level of finish on them that I normally offer (one step back from fully finished). This is still a much higher quality finish than all the other products on the market. I'm also launching 2 new products, and offering smaller discounts on other existing items. It's very niche, but I have good connections I've built up over the past year that makes marketing to the relatively small community pretty trivial. I have a very good reputation in the community, so people are happy to support the business restarting in another country in return for a significant discount on items they might have been wanting for a year or more :)

Its very humbling to have the support (even if they are just after the discount!), especially after all that has happened year or so (loss of child, almost loss of wife, heart attack from stress, forced to move country because we got behind on residency application because of other things happening...)

[Darcy Warner]

I think there's a small misunderstanding about the "Crowdfunding" in the context of this situation. I don't believe that the OP means asking for money in the way that many folks do when something bad happens, etc....ie, donations. I believe it's referring to something more akin to Kickstarter (or PledgeMusic in the music business) where by folks pre-order an actual product and the deposits in turn fund the setup and initial production. These early buyers are essentially investing in the business with the expectation that they will receive a product in return for early support. There are many things for sale these days that started out with Kickstarter type funding for the manufacturing...you may even own one or more of them and not realize it.

You are still using others money to try to get a product to them at some point. It's not much different. Something goes wrong no product gets delivered.

What happened to borrowing money from a bank or investor? It's like spreading the risk out to a bunch of strangers this way.

I just don't get it. I would never consider doing it or even looking at a kickfunding crowd thingy.

[Darcy Warner]

Yep, and more importantly, punch out a sheet of parts in 6-8 minutes.

I will toss you a buck, only 149,999 people left to give you a buck.

[Bill Dufour]

No fire sprinklers needed, possible living quarters, looks like you town could have another " Ghost Ship" fire at any time. I do not direct this to the op. since I doubt he plans to have wild drunken parties at night to raise extra money .
Bill D

[Mark Canada]

No fire sprinklers needed, possible living quarters, looks like you town could have another " Ghost Ship" fire at any time. I do not direct this to the op. since I doubt he plans to have wild drunken parties at night to raise extra money .
Bill D
Now that you mention it... I have an idea to raise extra money! Thanks!

Its pretty much this way all over the UK from what I've seen.

[Mark Canada]

You are still using others money to try to get a product to them at some point. It's not much different. Something goes wrong no product gets delivered.

What happened to borrowing money from a bank or investor? It's like spreading the risk out to a bunch of strangers this way.

I just don't get it. I would never consider doing it or even looking at a kickfunding crowd thingy.

Investors want a chunk of your business. To get a bank loan you need to have a credit history - as someone who just moved country, I don't exist in credit reports. For the small amount of money I was hoping to raise, I could have gone to the government for a startup loan, but as I have no credit history they would reject me. I don't like owing the bank either... never a good place to be.

Crowd funding can also be a great way to launch your product and build hype around it, get a lot of media attention you otherwise would not have received. I've designed parts of some crowd funded products where the company is now worth over half a billion dollars. The bank would have rejected them for the idea. This was the case for my previous campaign, and it worked out great.

If you need a significant amount of capital, like say launching an electronics product in a plastic enclosure, you may not be able to raise enough money from the bank, or have enough "street cred" for investors to back you. If you have $150k of injection moulds, $200k of electronics components and another $50k of board/assembly fees in order to make the product at a cost that the market will bear you might not get the funding from traditional sources. The risk if you did could be very high, you could end up with a large warehouse full of $500k of stock you can't move because you misjudged the market. By crowd funding you both prove demand, and raise the capital needed to make the project happen as well as building a customer base ready to order. In addition, you prove yourself to future investors, retailers and distributors as having a product that is in demand.

Furthermore, if you have a product that you know needs significant development input but have taken it as far as you can financially, you may need funding to finish it up. I'm really not a fan of these sorts of campaigns where its "almost ready" but there is still a year of development left. That being said, there have been some very large campaigns that have gone on to great success after doing so. Taking a bank loan of potentially millions of dollars and then running at a loss for a year to then produce the product isn't viable for many companies. The interest on a couple of million dollar loan is enormous, if you could convince the bank to give you that in the first place. A startup certainly would not get funding from the bank in that amount, and if they did the interest rate would be enormous.

On the flip side, backers can get significant discounts on the product, early access, exclusive versions, etc. There is of course the risk that the company fails to deliver, and some have failed spectacularly. I've backed about 60 projects on crowd funding websites, many were late but all delivered. Out of the billions dumped into crowd funding every year, there's only perhaps a few tens of millions of dollars worth of major campaigns I can think of that completely failed to deliver.

[Carl Baker]

Since most got right to workflow aspect and then plotted their next crowd sourcing scheme, I'll take a stab at a mezzanine answer. I'm not a structural engineer but I have dealt with enough structures to know a few things. First, I can virtually guarantee that the beam sized to span 12' in its current configuration is not going to span 24'. The mezzanine structure you have there is pretty light weight. I'm judging simply on scale and photographs, but I can certainly tell it was added after the fact. The columns bolt to the slab rather than down through the slab to a footing, so the columns are not transferring a lot of load. Again, I am going on photographs so you may tell me this was built at the end of an old airport runway and the slab is 20" thick, full of reinforcing and no need investigate further, much less to cut it out for footings. I suspect, however, this isn't the case and you have a lightweight mezzanine system sitting on a 4" - 6" concrete slab. If you were to consider removing columns, you are likely looking at larger beams to make the span work, PLUS you run the risk of slab damage as you reduce the number of bearing points and concentrate the load on fewer slab areas (or you are cutting slab to install footings at the remaining locations). If you really have a clearance issue for a specific machine / area, you could have a structural engineer take a look at shifting a column or two, but I wouldn't start planning your space with entire column lines gone... you're not going to get there.
One further caveat to keep your hopes alive if you are really entertaining these modifications, you are in a vastly different place than any I have ever worked so construction methods may differ enough to give you more flexibility than I see. I would still be very surprised to see any columns go completely away, though... sorry!