Question about jointing on a table saw

[Marshall Harrison]

I can't afford both a planer and jointer at this time. I know the conventional wisdom is to get a planer and use a table saw or router for jointing if you can only have one. I fully plan to get both as quickly as possible.

I have been watching Youtube videos on jointing with the table saw. But there are so many different jig/sleds etc for this that I am confused as to which jig and technique is best. I'm also confused as to the best material, plywood or mdf to use.

Can someone recommend a good Youtube video on jointing with a table saw? I don't want to waste time or money going down the wrong path by following the wrong Youtube guru.

I know there may be multiple opinions on this but hopefully we can come to a consensus.

Thanks.

Marshall

[Matt Day]

Get a pair of these and use mdf or plywood, whichever you have and has a straight edge.

http://www.rockler.com/e-z-jointer-clamp-kit

You can also make one with a couple de-sta-co clamps.

[Ted Derryberry]

I'm guessing you mean face jointing, not edge jointing. When I started getting serious about woodworking I bought a planer and quickly realized it wasn't much good without a jointer. Its been a while now and I can't really remember what I did until I got a jointer, but likely very little except changing the thickness of boards. If I had to at this point I would build a sled for the planer and use it to face joint, not the table saw. I've seen, but not watched, videos on YouTube claiming to face joint on a table saw, but I can't imagine that being worthwhile enough to even try. For edge jointing I'd use a router table with offset fences. You can also use a straight edge and a handheld router which is what I do on very large boards (2" x 2' x 12' slabs for example).

The link in Matt's post doesn't work for me, but if they're what I think they are save your money. All you need to straight line rip without a slider is a straight board, plywood or MDF, and some kind of clamps to hold your work on top of it that won't interfere with the fence or protrude through the bottom surface. That can be toggle clamps, hold down clamps with a bolt through the middle and a knob on top, or just screws through the work in an area that will be trimmed off later.

[Ted Derryberry]

Well I just wasted 10 minutes watching a video on face jointing with a table saw. I don't even own a hand plane, but if I didn't have a jointer and needed to flatten boards that video would convince me to buy a hand plane and learn how to use it.

Either that or find a new line of work.

[Simon MacGowen]

Can someone recommend a good Youtube video on jointing with a table saw? I don't want to waste time or money going down the wrong path by following the wrong Youtube guru.

I know there may be multiple opinions on this but hopefully we can come to a consensus.

Thanks.

Marshall

Something like this (found with a Google search):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrYjc3G1vgo

[Steve Demuth]

If you have table saw, it's not hard to do edge (edited - original post incorrectly said face) jointing with no jointer. Really just a matter of having a well-adjusted saw, and simple clamping jig. It's also not hard to do face jointing with a planer and sled, or a planer and hand or power plane. Lot's of instruction on youtube on the sled method. My preference, before I had a jointer, or when face jointing something wider than my jointer can handle, is to use a scrub plane to get one side flat enough the planer won't rock or bend the board. I know people who use a power plane to speed up the gross stock removal, and that is very successful.

[Ted Derryberry]

Steve, can you explain how to face joint with a table saw, even a well-adjusted one?

[Mike Henderson]

Before I bought a powered jointer, I used to face joint with hand planes. You need to break the long boards down to the size you're going to use (a bit longer) then use the hand planes to get them flat. Once you get one side flat, you can go to your (powered) planer and do the other face. While it's possible, it's a lot of work. I was really happy when I got my powered 8" jointer.

Mike

[Matt Day]

Wait, you meant FACE jointing on a TS? I’ve never seen that before. Only edge jointing.

I’ve used the clamps I referenced with success, but I didn’t do it much as I quickly realized the value in a jointer. I’d pickup a cheap used 6” jointer to get you by for a while.

[Steve Demuth]

Steve, can you explain how to face joint with a table saw, even a well-adjusted one?

No, because what I wrote was dumb typographical error. I meant to say "it's not hard to do edge jointing ...." My bad. I don't think there is a reasonable way to do face jointing on a table saw.

[Ted Derryberry]

That's what I thought, I just wanted to be sure.

[Sam Murdoch]

Before I bought a powered jointer, I used to face joint with hand planes. You need to break the long boards down to the size you're going to use (a bit longer) then use the hand planes to get them flat. Once you get once side flat, you can go to your (powered) planer and do the other face. While it's possible, it's a lot of work. I was really happy when I got my powered 8" jointer.

Mike

This highlighted in blue is to my way of thinking a BASIC of successful straightening (or flattening ) of stock. Work with the shortest dimensions practical for your finished purpose.

As for the OP's question - edge jointing on a TS is a get close proposition at best. UNLESS you own a big slider. It involves attaching a true straight edge - a wide stable rip of ply or mdf - to the stock so that the straight edge rides along the fence and the edge of the stock that needs to be straightened runs through the blade. Attaching the straight edge safely is easy for paint grade stock - more of a challenge for stock that will be clear finished. Start with wider boards and let each ripped piece be your straight edge for subsequent cuts. You can do the same on a bandsaw.

NOW - the problem will arise that as you do your TS (or bandsaw) rips that you will be releasing tension in the boards and they will likely come off the saw UNSTRAIGHT :eek: This will drive you nuts and force you to learn to use a hand or power planer or buy a jointer (or at the least a track saw).

I think that for a woodworkers who uses machines more than hand tools - a jointer is an essential shop machine. The TS techniques is tedious, not all that safe and certainly not all that accurate AND even when you have a straight edge you will need to plane the edge smooth of TS blade tracks. I think that a good jointer is more useful than a planer. You can buy dimensioned lumber and the jointer will flatten as well as straighten whereas the planer is mostly a thicknessing tool. Sorry Marshall if I have not helped.

[scott spencer]

Edge jointing is very doable on a TS or a router, but its still important to flatten the face to get a uniform 90° edge down the full length. With the help of a planer sled you can face joint with a planer before you edge joint.

[Ted Derryberry]

As far as boards coming off the table saw unstraight, that really depends on how much you are taking off. If you split a 10" wide board down the middle, odds are neither piece will be straight. If you rip 1/4" off an edge then that edge will be as straight as your rip. A track saw isn't going to make any difference.

You also don't necessarily have to plane off the blade marks. First off all a quality blade and the proper technique will leave minimal blade marks that can be sanded and if you're gluing the edge in a panel then you shouldn't need to do anything.

It is tedious to straight line with a jig on a cabinet saw. It's heaven on a slider. Saves a ton of time at the jointer.

You definitely need at least one flat face before edge jointing regardless of how that edge jointing is done. Even with a hand plane you don't have anything to reference off of without one flat face.

[Marshall Harrison]

Something like this (found with a Google search):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrYjc3G1vgo

Thanks.

That was an interesting video and the jig looks pretty easy to build. The video that played right after it was similar but the jig used the left side miter slot and cut with the blade on the right side of the wood without using the fence. a different approach but I like the frst video better.

[Marshall Harrison]

I found this video of a guy making a jig and face jointing on the table saw. Or maybe more correctly edge jointing all 4 sides of a board. But the problem is that you are limited to the max height of your saw blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21u4bou930w


I have a Ryobi powered plane and I'll try that out tomorrow to see how well it works. The only hand plane I have is a Stanley block plane. I would need to get a different plane to flatten a board face.

Thanks. This has been an interesting discussion.

[Jim Becker]

I "edge joint" all the time on my slider...but that's after the wood is perfectly flat and to thickness off the J/P. Baring the ability to acquire a jointer and planer or a J/P combo, it may be best to buy S4S lumber for projects. Ted's reaction to the video was pretty clear...

[Derek Cohen]

I can't afford both a planer and jointer at this time. I know the conventional wisdom is to get a planer and use a table saw or router for jointing if you can only have one. I fully plan to get both as quickly as possible.

I have been watching Youtube videos on jointing with the table saw. But there are so many different jig/sleds etc for this that I am confused as to which jig and technique is best. I'm also confused as to the best material, plywood or mdf to use.

Can someone recommend a good Youtube video on jointing with a table saw? I don't want to waste time or money going down the wrong path by following the wrong Youtube guru.

I know there may be multiple opinions on this but hopefully we can come to a consensus.

Thanks.

Marshall

Hi Marshall

Many years before I had a jointer and a planer (thicknesser), all I had was a tablesaw and hand planes. The hand planes (jack/scrub, jointer and smoother - Stanley #5, #7 and #4, respectively) would level both sides, and the tablesaw would joint the edges.

Then I purchased a bandsaw, and the bandsaw would do the thicknessing after one side was planed flat. Essentially, just resawing the board. If you have a couple of hand planes, or after you get a couple of hand planes, then a bandsaw/tablesaw can do many tasks.

In fact, I often recommend that one gets a jointer before a jointer because getting that first side flat and true is most of the work done - it is easier to thickness on a bandsaw after the jointer, and then run a hand plane over the top to smooth it out (popular Woodworking mag published an article by myself on this about 18 months ago).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

In the hand tool world, it is sharpening or obsession with it that is causing many people from really enjoying woodworking with hand tools. The "You must have super keen tools to get good results" kind of rubbish, that is. By the definition of many obsessed sharpeners, Paul Sellers would never do good work by the way he sharpens his tools.

In the power tool world, it is the "dead flat and dead square" kind of preaching that is nonsense to me. I have built many many furniture pieces without worrying about how dead flat the stock is. Reasonable flatness, not perfect flatness, is all woodworkers need. By definition, the blades on a jointer or a thickness planer could wear unevenly over time and does anyone check that before stock preparation every time? How many can afford to or are willing to spend $350 on a Starrett straight edge instead of using a journey level to check a large top?

If two boards to be joined are reasonable flat and not dead square on the mating edges, no problem as long as the mating angles are complementary. And there are simple techniques using a tablesaw, a jointer or a handplane to get those mating angles.

I use my jointer mostly for taperping and not for edge jointing (which is best done on my tablesaw) or face jointing (again best done with my thickness planer, even for width close to 13", not viable for my jointer unless I use certain tricks).

Simon

[Ted Derryberry]

When you're building 10 passage doors at a time and milling lumber to glue up panels you can't worry about keeping "complimentary" edges together. Everything needs to be the same so the boards are "interchangeable". "Complimentary edges" and "reasonably flat" don't cut it for rails and stiles either, unless it's barn door. By barn door, I mean for horses, not the current rage among the decorator types.

[glenn bradley]

I don't know that this thread has emphasized enough that before edge jointing on a tablesaw, you want a flat reference face. You are correct that a planer sled will take care of this preparatory step. Once you have a valid face to reference off of, many of the methods will work.

Be sure to consider that you do not have to mill an entire board and then cut parts out of it. This is a mistake that leads to many threads on "how do I joint an 8 foot board" when the person is going to immediately cut 20" lengths out of it. That being said I whipped up one of these.

378008

The block at the right rear is a fixture for tapering. The position it is shown in the picture is just a holding location for when it is not in use. When used for tapering it looks like so.

378007

They come in many flavors, the fundamental requirements being that the bed is rigid enough to hold the stock true when it is not supported by the tablesaw table (as in 'during the feed operation') and that it can clamp the stock securely.

[Simon MacGowen]

When you're building 10 passage doors at a time and milling lumber to glue up panels you can't worry about keeping "complimentary" edges together. Everything needs to be the same so the boards are "interchangeable". "Complimentary edges" and "reasonably flat" don't cut it for rails and stiles either, unless it's barn door. By barn door, I mean for horses, not the current rage among the decorator types.

I don't consider passage doors -- barn or not -- furniture. Even with doors, complementary angles will work. But if you are talking about efficiency or uniformity, it is a different consideration.

Rails and stiles as in frame and panel for cabinets are fine with reasonably flat, but not twisted, stock. The only problem I have encountered with frame and panel doors all these years was not about flatness, but about change in humidity causing warping, which perfectly flat boards wouldn't make a difference.

I do know a few woodworkers who like to think like machinists and they have little tolerance for...any large degree of tolerance. Some would not finish a project (any?) without ever using their calipers at one stage or another. They install after-market digital gauges to their machines, too. I am not one of them; heck, I trust my eye and feel by passing my hands over my work more!

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

A versatile sled you have there!

In case some miss it, such sleds can be used to cut a piece at an angle.

The only reason I use the sled with the fence (old version ran on the miter slot) is that the runner could bind on the slot when it is really wet in my shop. Even the quartersawn runner expanded a tiny at times.

Simon

[Ted Derryberry]

I don't consider passage doors -- barn or not -- furniture. Even with doors, complementary angles will work. But if you are talking about efficiency or uniformity, it is a different consideration.

Rails and stiles as in frame and panel for cabinets are fine with reasonably flat, but not twisted, stock. The only problem I have encountered with frame and panel doors all these years was not about flatness, but about change in humidity causing warping, which perfectly flat boards wouldn't make a difference.

I do know a few woodworkers who like to think like machinists and they have little tolerance for...any large degree of tolerance. I am not one of them.

Simon

Then maybe you should have said "dead flat and dead square is nonsense FOR THE TYPE OF WORK I DO" instead of making a blanket statement as if those whose work requires it have no sense.

[Simon MacGowen]

Then maybe you should have said "dead flat and dead square is nonsense FOR THE TYPE OF WORK I DO" instead of making a blanket statement as if those whose work requires it have no sense.

Didn't I say "...nonsense to me?"

A blanket statement would have read: "... is totally nonsense in woodworking," or the like.

Simon

[Ted Derryberry]

In the same post you said, "Reasonable flatness, not perfect flatness, is all woodworkers need." So which is it? You, or everybody, that this applies to?

[Simon MacGowen]

Okay. Saying something is "flat enough" is nonsense to me.

Won't dispute that as everyone -- making barn doors or not -- is entitled to their opinions.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

In the same post you said, "Reasonable flatness, not perfect flatness, is all woodworkers need." So which is it? You, or everybody, that this applies to?

Everybody, of course. There is no ambiguity in the statement that I think reasonable flatness is what every woodworker
needs. If you think reasonable flatness does not work for you, fine, you call the shots in your work; not me. But it doesn't change my opinion that perfect flatness is nonsense to me, does it?

If you are trying to disagree with me, as much as I disagree to a machinist's approach to woodworking, that is fine. You don't need to waste time trying to convince me perfect flatness or squareness is NOT nonsense.

Simon

[Ted Derryberry]

I won't waste any more time debating this. Obviously anyone that thinks flatness isn't important to woodworking has nothing to offer to the discussion.

[Simon MacGowen]

I won't waste any more time debating this. Obviously anyone that thinks flatness isn't important to woodworking has nothing to offer to the discussion.

A correction is in order: "Obviously anyone that thinks PERFECT flatness isn't important to woodworking has nothing to offer to the discussion."

Simon

[Art Mann]

Some people say that it isn't possible to do good enough edge jointing with a table saw alone. I have been doing it successfully for over 40 years. You just need a well tuned saw and a glue line rip blade. I must have constructed many hundreds of square feet of panels over the years and I would defy anyone to visibly identify the difference between a panel glue up I edge jointed with a table saw and one I edge jointed with a jointer. I usually use a jointer to straighten one edge and the table saw to straighten and finish the opposite edge but there are times when a table saw is all that is needed.

[glenn bradley]

Some people say that it isn't possible to do good enough edge jointing with a table saw alone. I have been doing it successfully for over 40 years. You just need a well tuned saw and a glue line rip blade

+1 Although I do clean up some edges that foul due to material movement from stress release. For the most part, a well tuned tablesaw and good blade will give you very usable results. Here's a pic of a piece of beech ripped with a 24T full kerf FTG blade on my old Craftsman Zipcode saw back in 2009.

378029

My Saw Stop did near as well out of the box. With a little love I now get nice clean results off a 24T TCG blade. Wood is a natural product. It moves when and where it wants; part of our craft is to take that into consideration when milling, designing and building furniture.

[johnny means]

Steve, can you explain how to face joint with a table saw, even a well-adjusted one?
Simple, one must build the jig to rule all jigs.

[Brian Holcombe]

It's my understanding that the premise for much of the European machines and process is that one face joints on a jointer, thickness in the thickness planer. This is followed by straight line ripping on the sliding saw and then to width using the planer again (unless the boards are wider than the planer is deep).

I joint the edge, rather than rip it, but otherwise this results in some pretty damned perfect material. It brought a tear to my eye the first time I used my minimax to do this, the results were so nice.

Anyways, I have done previously as Derek mentioned that he also previously done in that he would tune the board by hand (with hand planes) and then thickness with the bandsaw.

Methods are certainly going to vary a bit, as to what is acceptable, by volume of work and fitting after the fact. Fitting is hugely time consuming so if one can put the effort in upfront to get extremely precise material then the resulting fitting and specialized tuning is far less and that is worth the effort in many many cases.

[Ted Derryberry]

"Fit on assembly" is a sloppy and inefficient way to build anything.

[Ron Citerone]

My opinion is get the planer! I hear a lot about using a sled to flatten a face and while I never did it, it sounds like a great idea. As far as hand planing one face before using the planer I'll give you my thoughts having done this when I didn't have a jointer, or only had a 4" jointer. You don't need to hand plane a face completely, lay it on a flat table and see how it needs to have high spots removed and plan just enough to get it to lay mostly flat and then run it through your planer. Sorry to see the arguing in this thread, but different projects require different degrees of accuracy and flatness and for the time being you can get by without the jointer IMHO.

Also, depending on the size of your jointer, you may want to plane a board that is to wide for the jointer. By learning the hand plane even at a low level you will be able to plane boards wider than your jointer and avoid gluing up a drawer or a panel and add greatly to a piece without having glue lines in the drawers and panels.

I worked with junk most of my life and don't want to go back, but I learned a lot of lessons and skills that improved me as a woodworker.

Presently I belong to a club with a 12" jointer and a 20" planer.......................It took a lifetime, but I am in heaven.

[Art Mann]

Once upon a time, I built a temporary sled and used hot melt glue and wedges to support the plank on top of it. The sled method worked well for me that one time but I bought a 12 inch jointer/planer that made the effort unnecessary. I think a more elaborate sled with flexible supports would work well for those without a wide jointer.

[Simon MacGowen]

You don't need to hand plane a face completely, lay it on a flat table and see how it needs to have high spots removed and plan just enough to get it to lay mostly flat and then run it through your planer. Sorry to see the arguing in this thread, but different projects require different degrees of accuracy and flatness and for the time being you can get by without the jointer IMHO.


I worked with junk most of my life and don't want to go back, but I learned a lot of lessons and skills that improved me as a woodworker.

Presently I belong to a club with a 12" jointer and a 20" planer.......................It took a lifetime, but I am in heaven.

You just spilled the "trade secret" if I may that many pro-hand tool fellows would not mention: You don't need to flatten one side of a board (even if it is just 12" x 24") completely which Rob Cosman likes to do on his show (but then his justification is different: he needs to fill his one-hour segment by spending 30 - 40 minutes on just that single task!) before sending your 12" x 48" board through the planer.

Working with junk: Many of us did that and it was part of the learning curve. I stopped working with junk when I switched to using the SawStop ICS (and later PCS for my own work).

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

Once upon a time, I built a temporary sled and used hot melt glue and wedges to support the plank on top of it. The sled method worked well for me that one time but I bought a 12 inch jointer/planer that made the effort unnecessary. I think a more elaborate sled with flexible supports would work well for those without a wide jointer.

The sled method works well for those who have not developed the skills in using the jointer. Most people know to deal with cupped boards, but I have seen many people struggle with flattening a twisted board (board with wind), especially those over 4' or 5' in length, on the jointer.

Simon

[Brian Holcombe]

"Fit on assembly" is a sloppy and inefficient way to build anything.

Ted, I agree with this but I think you need to leave a bit of room for circumstances. The majority of my work is done with hand tools and so I liken it to ‘fitting off the saw’. This translates well to machines, IMO you want the parts to mate well as they are cutout, resulting in faster and more accurate work. Some fitting is practically required when working by hand and this is not considered sloppy if the results are accurate.