Difference between router and table, and shaper?

[Adam Grund]

Hey all,
I'm pretty new to woodworking, only really getting shown my first taste in interest this past year while trying to do a few kitchen upgrades.
I think I would like to dabble in fine woodworking I guess you would call it, with my major end goal being one day to make my own set of presentable kitchen cabinets. And I'm sure if I can get the hang of it, it'll blow up into a full blown hobby with many different projects.

Anyways, enough rambling. My main question is what is the difference between a router and a table, and a shaper? With a level playing field on power- say 3hp just for example- what makes these two so different that both machines exist? I know a shaper is a fixed machine? With a larger arbor and different bits- but that's about the extent of my knowledge.

Thanks!
Adam

[Mark Wooden]

For starters, a 3hp router has nowhere near the power and torque of a 3hp shaper. Shapers, in general, can handle larger, heavier cuts, to make mouldings, raised panels and milling operations. They generally take bigger and usually more expensive tooling- think cutters, not bits- than a router.
Routers are more ubiquitous, much less expensive to purchase and tool up and have a slightly less steep learning curve. It's said you can do anything a shaper can do with a router, but there are many caveats and limits to that statement.
If you're just getting started, a good heavy duty router, with a table with a fence to put it in and a good edge guide, is a great place to start.

[Mark Bolton]

Marks info is spot on. To work effectively shapers require large tooling and operate at much lower RPMs than a router. The way the router overcomes its small size is with very high RPMs. You will often see shapers offered with router collets but there are very few small diameter router bits that will perform even minimally in a shaper rotating at 10,000 rpms.

A shaper is a tool where to even get moderately "tooled up" to work, you will have 5X the cost of the shaper in tooling an accessories and you'll still be just moderately tooled up. An average import shaper at 3K new, a feeder at 1500 new, tooling to the tune of a couple hundred on average minimum per profile new. And so on. Our cope and stick insert tooling for cabinet doors was about 1500 bucks for the heads, knives, and rub collars initially. A top of the line feeder for a shaper will run 2500.00.

Where as a router table, even better if equipped with a feeder, will often times do all that a small shop needs for a good long while and your looking at tooling in the 20-50-100 dollar range per profile on average.

[Ted Derryberry]

For what you're doing a router table is the way to go. I got by with one for years and have built dozens of passage doors with it. I just upgraded to a shaper but I'm not getting rid of the router table by any means. As mentioned above the cost of shaper cutters is high compared to router bits and if I needed a new profile for one job, I'd get router bits and do it that way. If I had a contract for multiple units I'd invest in the shaper tooling. With cabinet doors, vs. passage doors, the router table makes even more sense as the cuts are typically not as heavy and the bits are even more affordable since they're smaller.

If you needed a single profile you might get a relatively inexpensive shaper and cutters for less than the cost of a router table. If you want several profiles, plus "standard" bits like roundovers, coves, ogee, etc. You can get a nice router table and a lot of bits cheaper than a shaper and cutters.

[Cary Falk]

A person can get by wit a router table for quite a while. I made my table and put in a Hitachi M12V 3hp router in it. I have since upgraded to a shaper and have not touched the router table since. Shapers are expensive to get one with a decent fence. I believe a shaper lives and dies by it's fence. Accessories don't have to be really expensive. I have $300 in my used feeder. I got a Freud insert raised panel cutter on E-bay for the price of sharpening the carbide inserts. I also have a Euro head with the 40 and 50mm insert knives which are about $20 a pop. Grizzly sells reasonable carbide cutters that are fine for hobbiest for not much more than the corresponding router bit. I have some cutters that I got for free once I bought a shaper and cutters then parted everything out and kept some cutters fro myself. Used carbide shaper cutters can be sharpened like saw blades.

[Adam Grund]

Thanks, all the above info answers my question in full. I was not aware of the lower rpm of the shaper- so that was new. Cost of machine and cost of tooling- I had saw how expensive they were. I have no doubt router and table are the way to go, at least for now, I was just curious as to the difference.
I have collected a few tools so far, the newest being a cmt/ sommerfield router table/cabinet with a frued ft2000 router already mounted, and a dewalt dw618 router kit with the 3 bases. Found a good deal used. After shuffling around appliances and cabinets, I need to build 2 wall cabinets- so that'll be my introduction. The cabinets that are in the house were more than likely economy grade for their era (found a date sticker of '94 on one of them) and they look very outdated and low end for today's standard- so I'm not too worried about not being perfect.
I had an experienced family friend help me build my drawer boxes and I installed Blum soft close undermount hinges, I thought I'd try to tackle the cabs myself and see what trouble I run in to

[John McClanahan]

For me, pricing shaper cutters told me I don't need a shaper......yet.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I'll provide the contrary view point.

I'm a hobby user who doesn't own a router however I've always had a shaper.

The shaper is more accurate, powerful, quieter, has better dust collection and can have a sliding table and tilting spindle.

The shaper makes profiles in one pass, and has a better cut quality and greater accuracy, and the large diameter cutters provide a superior surface finish.

A Euroblock 40mm head with high speed steel knives produces a finish in solid wood that no router can approach. The cost of the head is about $150, knives are $30 a pair, far less expensive than larger router bits.

Shapers also have the ability to run with reverse spindle rotation, this allows you to flip a profile cutter over and always cut with the grain, something a router can't do.

In addition shapers can run with cutter rotation the same direction as feed rate when using a stock feeder. This is called synchronous or climb cutting and can eliminate chip out in difficult wood.

Shapers can also run with outboard fences to profile and dimension in one pass.

Tenoning on a shaper with a sliding table is ideal, the shaper is capable of deep tenons, (mine will cut 75mm long tenons), and with proper tooling both sides of the tenon can be cut simultaneously.

Shapers also have much better fences and guarding, such as Shaw guards. Shapers are built for edge treatments, they groove and rebate far better, with better accuracy and safety than other machines. In addition shapers have proper guards and power feeders for these operations.

The above is merely the slimmest description of the work that shapers are capable of.

I suggest you watch this rather long video for the shaper segments in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV8A3XK3R0I&t=3842s

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

Adam
You've got a lot of good advice, no doubt, but I'm with Rod, a shaper does everything a router does in a table, and more.
You're not tooling up to run business, so you can be pretty selective about your cutter heads. A production shop's needs are different than yours. You can get by with a few selective, lower cost cutter heads, simply because you may not ever run as many linear feet in a home shop, as they will run in a week.
As far as $$$$ spent, used shapers are available all day long, and they're relatively cheap. A 3hp Delta will be between $500 to a grand, depending on what it comes with.
Speed in rpm is one way to look at things, but the speed at the outside edge of a 3" diameter cutter is plenty fast enough to yield a smooth cut.
One thing a shaper does that a router table cannot, is reverse direction. This can be pretty important depending on grain orientation.
I have a shaper and a nice router table, but I'd give up the router table first.
No matter which way you go, a quality fence is critical.��

[Bill Adamsen]

Folks have provided many ways of differentiating the router and shaper, tenoning and climb cutting are key differentiators..

In addition, note that many shaper operations are run with a power feed (much safer) and in fact, unless the heads are rated for manual feed (MAN) they must be run with a power feed. Yes they are versatile machines but there are many operations a router can perform (dovetails, boxjoints) that simply aren't available on a shaper. But as someone mentioned, the cost for these larger and more substantial heads and knives as well as power feeds are not trivial.

Btw - my shaper (Knapp) has a high speed router attachment (23,000rpm) that I do use sometimes.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Shaper for big cuts.
Router for little cuts.

[marty fretheim]

Like Bill, I have a router spindle for my shaper. My shaper cutters cost $250 or more. My router bits, about $25 or less. The router spindle cost about $700 but the shaper fence is better than any router fence I've ever seen (Felder). Mine spins at 16000 rpm and never had any issues with even the smallest bits. If you can find a shaper that will spin router bits fast enough, that would be my advice. I agree with the others that shapers have a lot of advantages, but sometimes you need a router.

[Mark Bolton]

Hi, I'll provide the contrary view point.
Rod.

This is all true but the real info is that if buying new the investment in a shaper, feeder, and separate cutters from those that can be run hand held in router that most every hobby shop has makes the shaper (and it's tooling) unique to the shaper. The functionality and performance of the shaper is unbeatable but most small hobby in shops will take far more advantage of a feeder equipped router table that can still run back fence operations.and is only limited by reverse rotation.

[julian abram]

Production shop= Shaper
Home shop = Router table mounted

Yes, this is a generalization which means it is not always true, but generally speaking shops will fall along these categories based on cost and materials being machined.

[Ted Derryberry]

A shaper that can do everything Rod describes is not a cheap shaper. Reversible tilting spindle with a power feeder is going to cost double what a top of the line router table with a lift, motor and all the accessories cost, then you have to buy the tooling. Going back to the original post, a shaper doesn't make sense for a one off project of some kitchen cabinets that "might" turn into a hobby.

[Adam Grund]

A shaper that can do everything Rod describes is not a cheap shaper. Reversible tilting spindle with a power feeder is going to cost double what a top of the line router table with a lift, motor and all the accessories cost, then you have to buy the tooling. Going back to the original post, a shaper doesn't make sense for a one off project of some kitchen cabinets that "might" turn into a hobby.

I would agree with that. That was never the intention of my post- I was merely curious of the differences. my head just spins sometimes reading and trying to soak up information.

[J.R. Rutter]

Put a light feeder, like a Delta versa feeder, on the router table and you can climb cut and use an outboard fence if you want. Since you have a router table already, look into the feeder. It will be a useful learning experience if you ever do get a shaper, and the results for running things like cabinet door sticking (the cut where the groove and profile is milled) will be better.

[Bill Adamsen]

Put a light feeder, like a Delta versa feeder, on the router table and you can climb cut and use an outboard fence if you want.

That's a really great idea I'd never considered. Just run the stock backwards. Thanks JR!

[Ed Labadie]

I tend to cut dados on the router table, can be done on a shaper with the stock verticle, just not as easy as the router table where the stock is flat.

I can dado 12" in from the edge on the router table, not possible on the shaper.

I do have both.

Ed

[Brian Holcombe]

Shopping for a shaper, likely purchase toward the end of the year. Anything with a tilting spindle is over 8k brand new, but many can be had used. Only trouble is that any reversible usually requires 3 phase electric, which can be done, but adds another couple thousand to the bill.

[Ted Derryberry]

Grizzly has a couple of tilting spindle shapers around $4,000.00 and they're single phase.

[Brian Holcombe]

Felder and SCM both have single phase tilting spindles, but I didn’t complete my thought and meant to say that reversible usually requires three phase. The Minimax T45W is listed as reversible without mention as to wether the feature is eliminated on single phase models, so I could be wrong.

[Rod Sheridan]

Shopping for a shaper, likely purchase toward the end of the year. Anything with a tilting spindle is over 8k brand new, but many can be had used. Only trouble is that any reversible usually requires 3 phase electric, which can be done, but adds another couple thousand to the bill.

Have a look at the Hammer F3, sliding table, tilting spindle, reverse in a single phase package for a lot less than 8K.

I have it in a B3 saw/shaper combo. I have the 1 1/4" and 30mm spindle, the 30mm allows me to use my dado set and saw blades, as well as metric tooling..........Regards, Rod.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Rod, I’ll have a look and happily stand corrected.

[Martin Wasner]

Shopping for a shaper, likely purchase toward the end of the year. Anything with a tilting spindle is over 8k brand new, but many can be had used. Only trouble is that any reversible usually requires 3 phase electric, which can be done, but adds another couple thousand to the bill.

There was a brand new, NOS, 2005, SAC T145 tilting shaper with rolling top on eBay for months for $8500. That's a lot of shaper for the money. 12hp, it had all of the accessories like wrenches and spindles that get misplaced typically.

I almost pulled the trigger on that thing a few times. I'd take that SAC over most of the new offerings.

[Brian Holcombe]

When it comes to it I’ll probably hunt for a used machine but I want it mainly for tenoning, so I need an outrigger and sliding table. Other trouble is that I can’t handle big hp machines in my current shop, 10hp draws 70 amps when converted to single phase, and converting it to single phase is considerably more expensive than my current phase converter. So it’s an added expense that weighs into the decision making.

What I end up looking for becomes fairly rare in the used market since most shapers are higher hp than I want.

[Warren Lake]

Poitras 2 Hp Single phase is reversible and came from the factory that way one machine wish I never bought but over 30 years ago.

Routers and shapers are two different things you cant be without one or the other if you want to make a living. Routers can do stuff shapers cant do like small radius work, shapers are limited to the head size unless you have one that takes router bits and non of mine do even still you can climb cut by hand really on the shaper but you can with a router with hand feed you are holding the tool and control it. Float back climb cutting then forward into minimal material removal. There is overlap in what they do then either one can do things better than the other Different tools you need both or at least I do. Shaper will never let you plunge and and do a cutout with a jig, router will make the template for your shaper for arched windows or gothic and do a better job than a bandsaw then bring it to size hand plane and sanding block like on the video extra work cause its made a slower way and it will never be as consistent. We can learn from all the company you tubes what the machines can do but bottom line they are still people selling stuff. Old guy told me the guy that taught him had a little black book with all his formulas and could make up Gothic church windows very high quality and fast. Router and a shaper, the more the merrier.

[rudy de haas]

I faced the same choice and opted for a used 3HP shaper with power feeder. The downsides of the shaper are cost and set-up time; the pluses are those mentioned by Rod, above, and the fact that you can do a much wider range of things on a shaper than on a router table - especially when you have to do the same things enough times to "pay off" the set-up time. For example, I just got a bargain on some 2 x 6 yellow cedar that I plan to use for the walls in our new laundry room and downstairs closets. The wood is currently drying after getting cut into 7/8th x 6 - next week, however, I'm using a $169 grizzly type shaper head set to turn it into tongue and groove. I have about 540 lineal feet to do - and that's what a shaper/feeder combo is great for: one set-up; one cutter switch; and a total of two passes - try that with a router and you can do it, but it it will take all week.

[Larry Edgerton]

Felder and SCM both have single phase tilting spindles, but I didn’t complete my thought and meant to say that reversible usually requires three phase. The Minimax T45W is listed as reversible without mention as to wether the feature is eliminated on single phase models, so I could be wrong.


Its reversible in single phase. Was my first shaper, nice little machine.

[Warren Lake]

not all of them can run reverse depends on your locking nut set up as well.

[Brian Holcombe]

Its reversible in single phase. Was my first shaper, nice little machine.

Awesome! Thanks Larry.

[Larry Edgerton]

I almost pulled the trigger on that thing a few times. I'd take that SAC over most of the new offerings.

Me too. When I finally made up my mind to pull the trigger it was gone. Close one...........

[Curt Harms]

Shopping for a shaper, likely purchase toward the end of the year. Anything with a tilting spindle is over 8k brand new, but many can be had used. Only trouble is that any reversible usually requires 3 phase electric, which can be done, but adds another couple thousand to the bill.

One of a VFD's trick is reversing so single phase power, VFD, and 3 phase motor on the shaper. I've never used a shaper so don't know if there'd be any benefit to variable speed.

[Martin Wasner]

Awesome! Thanks Larry.

There's two of those shapers on Woodweb at the moment. I think they are three phase though.

[Martin Wasner]

Me too. When I finally made up my mind to pull the trigger it was gone. Close one...........


One of those where you were relieved it was gone, to end the taunting and temptation, but kicked yourself for not buying it? THE HUMANITY!

[Brian Holcombe]

There's two of those shapers on Woodweb at the moment. I think they are three phase though.

Thanks Martin, I'm still a ways off at this point though, so just kicking tires and doing my research.

[Larry Edgerton]

One of those where you were relieved it was gone, to end the taunting and temptation, but kicked yourself for not buying it? THE HUMANITY!


You got it brother...............

[Larry Edgerton]

I saw those on there. The problem with he T40, T45 is the hood is lame. Very thin cast aluminum, no fine adjust on the outfeed side. I had a bad blowout bend mine, not something that should ever happen. But for a lightweight they will do some very nice work and the sliding table can be handy at times.

[Vince Shriver]

Not to mention, shapers (normally found in production shops) usually run on three phase power.

[M Toupin]

One of a VFD's trick is reversing so single phase power, VFD, and 3 phase motor on the shaper. I've never used a shaper so don't know if there'd be any benefit to variable speed.

Yes on both accounts! Soft start and controls deceleration is really nice, but reversing and variable speed is handy and opens some doors too. Sometimes changing the speed just a touch improves the cut and, as stared above, router bits normally don't work real well due to the slower spindle speed but... bump the hz up a reasonable amount (I go to 90hz/15,000rpm) and you can run all but the smallest profiles reasonably. Very seldom do I run router bits, but on those rare occasions it's a nice option for short runs.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Not to mention, shapers (normally found in production shops) usually run on three phase power.

Vince, there are many smaller single phase shapers available new.

I have a 4HP Hammer shaper in single phase, sliding table, tilting spindle, 4 speeds............Nice machine..........Regards, Rod.

[Mike Heidrick]

Delta 3hp and 5hp hd shapers were single phase reversible and the spindle manages that with a keyway and a keyed washer.

Tenoning tables on sliders are sweet.

Tilting spindles open up crazy profile options.

You can make shaper tooling seem cheaper by pricing euro insert tooling, and I am not talking $150 euro blocks.

Reversing is used so you can flip your cutter over, not for wild grain patters.

I am not a fan of light weight feeders that slip like the versa feeder, owned and sold it. I believe in min 1/2hp feeders and now only buy 1hp+.

A Beauty of a nice fence on a shaper is repeatability and moveable safety fingers between fence halves you can surround the cutter with to provide max support through the cut.

Mass makes swinging dinner plate size cutters smooth. Thats what expensive euro shapers buys you too.

[brent stanley]

Adam, I did a video series on the value of a small shaper in a small shop, using a small project as a case study. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mylYGzZC2yU&t=534s

I'll warn you, I'm no videographer!

You can get away with a LOT less money in tooling if you consider some of the HSS limiter tooling that Rod is talking about. I talk a lot about that in the video series.

The fourth episode talks about this head: http://www.whitehill-tools.com/catalogue.php?cid=2&c2id=60

For the price of one head you get a 40mm limiter head (or larger if your machine can handle it) that can take thousands of different profiles off the shelf for very little money per knife set, you also get a fully featured, shear-cut rebate block with scribes that can be used as a template head with the addition of a bearing, and with the appropriate spindle (and machine capacity) you can use this head for cutting the cheeks and shoulders on full-length tenons including scribes for profiled stiles if wanted.

[J.R. Rutter]

I am not a fan of light weight feeders that slip like the versa feeder, owned and sold it. I believe in min 1/2hp feeders and now only buy 1hp+.

On a shaper, me too, absolutely!

[Steve Jenkins]

I was given a versa feeder and let it it on a shelf for several years then put it on my router table. What a dream especially for running long small moldings.

[Doug Rasmussen]

In case nobody has mentioned it...... shapers are dirt cheap these days, at least on Seattle Craigslist. Router tables have destroyed the home shop shaper market.

I had a nice condition Delta Homecraft 1/2" spindle shaper that I paid $350 for twenty some years ago. Several tries selling on CL starting at $200 including 18 Delta cutters. After several price drops it finally went for 75 bucks!! At that time there were 4 others that had been listed for weeks.

I'm about to list a Delta heavy duty shaper (base style like a Unisaw), newer style with two speeds and 1 phase, 2hp, TEFC motor. I'll be lucky to get 300 bucks.

[Mike Cutler]

Reversing is used so you can flip your cutter over, not for wild grain patters.

Mike

I think that I over simplified my statement with regards to grain orientation.
One thing that really hasn't been brought up in this thread is the comparison of the router mounted in a table, versus a shaper, is the use of templates. It is this function that I was referring to as far as grain orientation.
It is very advantageous to be able to start curves, arcs and complex forms from either direction, ensuring that you are always cutting with the grain, and not worry about blowing out the inside or outside edges of a curve because the rotation changed the orientation.
On the router table you need matching templates, to flip the workpiece over to make sure that you're cutting with grain. On the shaper, you just flip the cutter head over,reverse the motor, and the workpiece never has to come off the template form.

I've done more template work on shapers than anything else. Almost all of it has to be done by hand feeding the material. I find the shaper is easier on the hands with regards to vibration. Of course, maybe that's because I make more robust templates, heavier and bigger, than I would for a router.

[brent stanley]

Mike

I think that I over simplified my statement with regards to grain orientation.
One thing that really hasn't been brought up in this thread is the comparison of the router mounted in a table, versus a shaper, is the use of templates. It is this function that I was referring to as far as grain orientation.
It is very advantageous to be able to start curves, arcs and complex forms from either direction, ensuring that you are always cutting with the grain, and not worry about blowing out the inside or outside edges of a curve because the rotation changed the orientation.
On the router table you need matching templates, to flip the workpiece over to make sure that you're cutting with grain. On the shaper, you just flip the cutter head over,reverse the motor, and the workpiece never has to come off the template form.

I've done more template work on shapers than anything else. Almost all of it has to be done by hand feeding the material. I find the shaper is easier on the hands with regards to vibration. Of course, maybe that's because I make more robust templates, heavier and bigger, than I would for a router.

Absolutely Mike. Good points. If you're doing super tight curves, you may find it hard to get in there with a shaper head of larger diameter. There is a place for router tables sometimes.