Another 8" Parallelogram Design Jointer (now there are 3)

[Bob Stroman]

Grizzly's Parallelogram Design 8" Jointer makes my DJ-20 look like a lightweight.

G9859Z 8" Z Series Jointer w/ Spiral Cutterhead

[Keith Foster]

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/G/G9859Z.jpg

[Walt Pater]

That's a good jointer. Last year I spent several months with one (came with some shop space I rented), and it really made me re-consider the whole Grizzly shtick (Sorry- I'm a recovering Grizzlyphobe). I could routinely flatten 12 footers on it, as well as adjust it so it could just, ever-so-lightly, remove kerf marks from rips. I'm actually considering buying it from the dude whose space I rented. I haven't posted my thoughts about my experience with this Grizzly product because I didn't think the whole "8 inch jointer" debate needed another voice. But again- that's a pretty solid machine pictured up there.

[Bruce Page]

At $2710, it looks like Grizzly's starting to push the higher end of the hobbyist market.

[Mark Singer]

At that price I would consider a jointer / planer combo...add the cost of a planer....you might get a 12" instead of an 8"

[JayStPeter]

It's been around for at least a couple years. It's the same design as their 12 and 16" jointers. They discontinued the version with regular knives that was a little cheaper.
We've all discussed the relative merits of the Griz that is half the price of the DJ-20, here's the one that's double the price.:eek: :D

Jay

[Dev Emch]

Wow! Did I say WOW!

I stand in your humble presence and bow my hat. That is what I am talking about! Holly Cow!

So whats the deal? It sounds like it has been on the market for a while now. That is, an 8 inch version. I personally have not been looking for 8 inch jointers so I may have been a bit negligent in looking under every rock. But Hey, Pappa Grizz, why did you not say you had this lately! I assumed, and incorrectly at that, that your thinking about releasing one. Now, it turns out the Big Kahuna is here.

In checking the beastie out, I see its got twin front mounted wheels. I assume that each wheel controls it own table. Left for outfeed and right for infeed. This is different and it looks pretty slick.

So does it do convex and concave cuts by tweaking the front infeed eccentric? That would be so cool.

So, wow! This is great to see this. Now we have a total of three parallograms on the market. Do I smell a new FWW jointer reveiw comming up? The Battle of the Giants... Review of 8 in Parallogram Jointers.

[Mike Cutler]

All Right, dang it, I have to ask this really stupid question? Exactly WHAT is meant by the term "parallelagram" as refers to these jointers, and why is suddenly such a revelation?

I don't want to regress to the point of isolating individual merits/demerits of manufactures, or models. I'm just trying to understand this term more completely.

I feel really stupid here:o

[Shiraz Balolia]

Bruce - actually, this machine is intended for the industrial market and I have not seen it go into any hobby shops.

Dev - There are a lot of things people don't know about us. We have carried this jointer for several years. It is the smallest in that particular family of jointers. Very unique table - has cam adjustments so one can tweak both tables to be exactly parallel to the cutterhead and also dead even with each other. I have the 12" version of this with spiral cutterhead in my shop that I use for my figured guitar woods. Frankly, for the price difference we are finding that more people are opting for the 12" model and so this 8" version might be shortlived. The base is solid cast iron. The 16" version sells for around 5K and is a beast.

[Alan Turner]

I like the wheel for adjustment of the outfeed table on the front of the machine, where you can turn the wheel and look at a straightedge at the same time, without having to be long armed or a contortionist. But, that is quite a price for an 8" jointer. For that kind of money, I am thinking 12" or if used, a 16". Even if the quality is perfect, it seems that a wider guy would be a better buy for that kind of money. An 8" board is not that wide.

[Gary Sutherland]

Shiraz...

Is there a catalog or site where we can look at some of these neat things that are not in the regular catalog?

Gary

[Dev Emch]

Mike...
I will give you the theoretical description based more on martins approach than anyone else. But in principle, they are more or less the same give or take some features for the price difference.

Do you remember high school geometry class? If you take four links and pin them together, you get a square albeit a weak one. Place this square on a table and the bottom is now fixed. That means that the top **WILL** always be parallel to the base hence the name parallogram.

As you move the top backwards, it has but one possible range of motion. The top will sweep out an arc as it goes down. The left and right sides folding down to the horizontal as they go. In geometry, this shape is called a rhombus with a square forming a unqiue version thereof. Unique in that all four angles are 90 degrees.

If I build a jointer on this principle, the base remains fixed and the table remains parallel to the base at all times. Four small links connect the table to the base and these are able to pivot. As the infeed table moves down, it sweeps this arc I talked about. As a result, the distance between the cutting circle and the lip of the infeed table remains constant thoughout the complete range of motion.

The wedge bed jointer, which comprise the bulk of all jointers, is not able to do this. The deeper a cut I take, the more space I have between my infeed lip and the cutter head circle. In some cases, such as the northfield HD, I can move the table back and forth to compensate for this. The oliver 166 can also slide its tables in and out but because it uses four smaller wedges to form an independent wedge system, this issue is not as bad.

Another problem that wedge beds have is freedom of motion over time. As a wedge bed gets older, the grease dries out and attracts sawdust. This creates a sticky goo in the way system which can over time make the movement of the wedges difficult. So every few years, you have to break a wedge bed down and clean out all this gunk and relube and reset the gibs and then dial it back in. This is a whole lot of fun! Esp on those super large machines like Lou and I have! (Note dripping sarcasim?)

Because the parallogram architecture depends on smooth moving pivot points instead of full fledged way systems, these machines often use bronze bushings or even needle bearings. Thus, they remain more flexible over time without the frequent spring cleaning tune up work.

But life is not that simple. Lets look at the infeed table only. There are a total of four links with two links on the left and two links on the right. Standing in front of the infeed table, the links on the left are closest to the cutter head and the links on the right are closest to the entry point of the jointer.

All four points of attachment to the infeed table should utilize pins supported by a qood quality set of needle bearings. No difficult concepts here.

The links on the left side are actually welded or solidly attached to a main pivot bar or pivot axle which in turn sits in a set of pillow like bearing mounts that attach to the bed of the jointer. Should the table be high or low from front to rear, I can slip a little shim brass under one of these bearing blocks and then tighten down the bolts. As the table moves, it actually forces the pivot axle to rotate and these two left links are forced to move as a pair.

The right side (side nearest the entry point of the jointer) is more complex. Here, the links are independent with each link having two sets of needle bearings. One is attached to the bottom of the table and the other is attached to a solid rod which is similar to the previous mentioned pivot axle except it does not move. So each of these two right links can move any way its wants to independently. But because they attach to a rigid table, the table and the left links force these two right links to behave themselves and move in only one way.

This strange rod does not freely rotate but allows the links to rotate about it using the links bearings. Why? Well, this rod is double machined. The center of the rod which holds the links has a central axis running down the center of the main rod. The outer sections of this rod are turned OFF CENTER creating two ECCENTRIC ends. These eccentric ends are what sits in the jointer blocks which attach the infeed table to the base.

Now, as I rotate this eccentric rod, the centerline of the links lower bearings will move up or down. This has the effect of moving the infeeds right most table edge (edge opposite infeed lip) up or down thus changing its parallel to the outfeed table.

By tweaking this eccentric rod, I can adjust an out of parallel jointer in seconds. Remember the outfeed table has to be parallel to the infeed table for this whole thing to work.

But I can take this concept a step further. By really tweaking the eccentric rod in either direction, I can set the jointer up to do convex or concave cuts. This feature allows me to perform spring jointing operations on this jointer. A feat not easy to do with the vast majority of jointers. The only two wedge beds that actually can do this with ease is the newman 60 and the porter 300. Every other one including the norhfield HD was a problematic kludge. Because of how the parallogram architecture works, this feature is now easy to do. In fact, martin even has motorized control of this feature.

Hope this answers your questions on the parallelogram architecture. I have even considered modifying an oliver 166 to utilize this system. Because of how its built, this is not that hard. Other jointers, its darn next to imposible to modify into a parallelogram.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Bruce - actually, this machine is intended for the industrial market and I have not seen it go into any hobby shops.

Hobby shop here. I have the 12" with the spiral cutterhead (G9860ZX); have had it for about 9 months. it's the priciest thing in my shop, and I expect it to stay that way. I like to have a few good tools, rather than a bunch of gadgety gimmics. Getting one flat surface and a flat edge at right angles to it is a precursor to any further use of a piece of wood. The acquisition process went something like this:

Me (on the phone): "hi, I'm driving through Bellingham next week, and would like to stop and get a G0543" (8" spiral cutterhead jointer, non-parallelgram).

Grizzly phone order agent: "I'm sorry sir, Bellingham is out of stock on that item".

Me: "oh, I see. Never mind".

Dear Wife: So, are you getting that tool next week?"

Me: "Nope, they're out of stock on the 8 inch."

DW: "Do they have it in another size that would work?"

Me: "uh, they have a 12", but it costs 3x as much".

DW: "well, you just got your yearly bonus, you work hard and deserve it, just get the 12 inch."

Me (a little stunned): "OK"

So I got the jointer, and will be keeping the wife indefinitely. ;)

What the kids call "dad's thousand pound thing" is a joy to use. My only complaint is that the manual has no information as to how to adjust the tables. They were spot-on right out of the crate (at least to the ability of my 0.001" straightedge to check), with only the outfeed height needing tweaking. But it would have been nice to have that info in the manual.

[Chris Giles]

Barry,
Your wife actually said "Isn't there another size that would work?" :eek: :D !! That woman is a gem!

[Dev Emch]

These things come with manuals? Wow! Were so used to getting stuff without manuals... heck, we often get the rust for free as well.:cool: Often its a detective game to figure out how it really worked and went together. Dealers are often no help at all. A sale is a sale. Whether its a sack of cement or a wood muncher, its all the same to them.

I have seen several comments or light complaints about having to adjust the outfeed table on arrival. Personally, I would like to see the outfeed table set parallel to the infeed table as best as possible and both **ABOVE** the cutter head circle. It would also be nice to see a section of cardboard carefully layed over the cutter head to immobilize it during shipment. Same with the fence. A layer of treated cardboard under the fence to keep it from dinging the table.

[Mike Cutler]

Dev.

Ahh... now I see. In bicycling lingo, this would be a reflex parallelogram, or a rear derailleur.

I sort of assumed that it was something along the same pricipal, but there is that little quote about "assume"

Thanks for the explanation.

[Barry O'Mahony]

It's shipped in the crate with the fence disassembled. You need to bolt the fence mount to the back of the base after you uncrate it, whihc goes pretty quickly. That said, it obvious the unit is assembled and tested before shipment, with the fence mount unbolted for shipment: you can find a bit a sawdust inside in the dust collection shroud around the cutterhead.

[Scott Coffelt]

The way Papa Grizzly acted, I was expecting to see Delta clone coming out. I thought he would have just mentioned this one since it isn't new or anything. I m not ruling out that a DJ20 clone in the future. Pretty impressive though.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Shiraz...

Is there a catalog or site where we can look at some of these neat things that are not in the regular catalog?

Gary

Gary - Everything we want on the web site is on there. Sometimes, we hold back certain items until an official release date, in this case the 2006 catalog. If you are not on our mailing list, go ahead and get yourself on it so that you will receive the new 600 page catalog when it comes out in January. There are 40 pages of new items in that catalog and should cover all the new stuff that will be available for sale.

Barry - So, what did you buy your wife? When I used to sell in the showroom, and when guys complained about having to get their wife's permission, my advice to them was to save up twice the value of the machine they wanted. Then, ask the other half what she wants (new dining set, etc..), buy that first. Then whammo.......slam dunk on the machine purchase!
By the way, thank you for purchasing from us. That is one heck of a jointer (same one I have and love). The cam adjustments are very easy. Remove those small panels you see next to the table front sides and there is a cam on each side of the table. Very self-explanatory, but if you need help, PM me and I'll get an engineer to call you. You will need a long straight edge. I used a 5' Starret, cut a slot in a small wood block and slid one end of the straight edge into that. This way the straight edge can sit on its edge hands free allowing you to walk around the machine, make adjustments etc. without touching the straight edge. Don't mess with the settings unless they are out, though.
Thanks,
Shiraz.

[Barry O'Mahony]

Barry - So, what did you buy your wife?

Now that you mention it, she got a 3-horse, slant-load horse trailer, complete with tack closest.;) I think indulging my power tool purchases in her mind helps her counter any concerns I might have about feed bills, vet bills, lesson fees, etc., that she and my daughter manage to ring up.

I got my first two Grizzly tools several years ago, a 16" bandsaw and a 6" jointer, from a friend who was moving back east and didn't want to move all his tools. They were/are OK, but not up to the quality of most of things you have now. I go to Vancouver once or twice a year on business, and usually drive there from Portland so I can stop at your HQ on the way back. I've also acquired a DC, the 20" drill press (a real nice DP, BTW), and the 6" belt / 12" disc sander. I've had my eye on the G0514, although I understand you're phasing that out. 'moving to an mainland supplier to better compete with the likes of Rikon, I'm guessing.

[Scott Banbury]

So, what did you buy your wife? When I used to sell in the showroom, and when guys complained about having to get their wife's permission, my advice to them was to save up twice the value of the machine they wanted. Then, ask the other half what she wants (new dining set, etc..), buy that first. Then whammo.......slam dunk on the machine purchase!

Shiraz,

That's exactly the advise I give my lumber customers when they fall in love with one of the 10' long, 24"+ wide slabs of Walnut and Cherry I leave leaning around on the walls of my shop. :D

BTW, I love Grizzly! My shop was born on the day that Grizzly closed their showroom here in Memphis.

I came in 5 minutes before the doors closed and volunteered to save the staff the hassle of disassembling, packing and shipping the floor displays to Springfield. :)

How else could a guy get a 12" 5horse tablesaw, 8" inch jointer, a 15" planer, a 6"x48" combo sander, a bench drill press and a 20 gallon C-H air compressor, a brad nailer and a mess of accessories for 2 grand? :cool:

The machines have all held up extremely well to the mass of Oak, Walnut and Cherry that my Woodmizer shoves at them. :)

I only wish I could get such a good deal on one of those 16" jointers. :(

Keep up the good work Shiraz!

Scott

[Shiraz Balolia]

Scott - so you are the guy that "stole" the machines from us (good job)! Debbie still talks about you. We just wanted to get the hell out of Memphis. We had that place shuttered like a fortress and had video surveillance inside and outside. The outside cameras were mounted about 16' high. The bloody crooks took the cameras!

Anyway, thank you for your business and your comments.

[Scott Banbury]

Shiraz,

The way I figure it, I paid a $1 a pound for my shop. :D

My rear suspension of my little "1/2 ton" Toyota was totally bottomed out on the drive home. Adding up just the machines, the load was right at 2000 lbs :eek:

The only thing that has gone wrong on any of the machines was the motor on the tablesaw. Got it rewound for $150 and been better ever since.

Thanks for making good tools available at a reasonable price. :)