Getting stain into white oak pores

[mark mcfarlane]

Over the weekend I tested about a dozen finishing schedules for some white oak.

No matter what the finish (BLO, tung oil, danish oil, transtint dye (w/DNA), oil pigment stain, seal-a-cell, arm-r-seal,...) I end up with some 'whitish' areas deep in the pores that are only visible at a certain angle.

I sanded 100, 120, and 150 for final sand.

Are these 'white streaks' avoidable?

377292

For completeness, the sample on the left is 2 coats of Watco Danish Oil (Med Walnut) and the right is 1 coat of Formsby Tung Oil. NO top coats on these samples. The Danish Oil gave me closest finish to what I am looking for (darken the pores but only slightly tint the rest).

[Prashun Patel]

How are you applying?

I have used a coarse brush - like a wallpaper paste brush or nylon brustle brush to force the stain down into the pores.

I suspect - but cannot corroborate - that adding mineral spirits to the oil-based stain will assist in preventing it from bridging the pores.

[George Bokros]

I used a water based dye stain from General Finishes and I had the same issue getting the stain into the pores of rift sawn white oak. I was the most successful using a quality foam brush.

[David Utterback]

Not sure if it would help but have you tried stain application across the grain? Application with a cloth might also help.

It seems if too much oil stain is left in the pores, it might prolong the cure time on the finish layers. Let us know if you find an effective method.

[George Bokros]

Application with a cloth might also help.

I was using a cloth before I switched to the foam brush.

[John TenEyck]

Did you clean out the pores before starting with your finish?

OB stain should go down into the pores if you apply it liberally and wipe it in with a circular motion, before wiping it off.

John

[mark mcfarlane]

How are you applying?

Prashun, I used a paper towel, mostly wiping with the grain, not really trying very hard to work the finishes into the pores.


I suspect - but cannot corroborate - that adding mineral spirits to the oil-based stain will assist in preventing it from bridging the pores.

I'm not sure I am following you, are you suggesting that diluting the stain or tung oil is a good thing, to improve penetration into the pores?

[mark mcfarlane]

Not sure if it would help but have you tried stain application across the grain? Application with a cloth might also help.

It seems if too much oil stain is left in the pores, it might prolong the cure time on the finish layers. Let us know if you find an effective method.

I want maximum dark staining of the pores, so 'too much' is possibly a good thing, other than the prolonged dry time.

I'm gonna say I wiped the various stains / dyes / finishes / oils both across and with the grain. but I didn't really work hard to 'grind it into the pores'.

[mark mcfarlane]

Did you clean out the pores before starting with your finish?

OB stain should go down into the pores if you apply it liberally and wipe it in with a circular motion, before wiping it off.

John

I did a quick blast with compressed air after sanding. Is there a more effective way to clean out the pores beyond compressed air (which I could have done more rigorously)?

[John Kee]

I've had the best results using a Taklon brush, I have some that are upto 3" wide and work well. You still have to work at it but the fine bristles carry the pigment into the pores.

[Rob Young]

I used a water based dye stain from General Finishes and I had the same issue getting the stain into the pores of rift sawn white oak. I was the most successful using a quality foam brush.


For water borne stains/dyes, I add a drop (maybe a touch more) of cheap liquid dish soap. Lowers the surface tension and so the water can carry things down into the smaller pores. You don't want suds! I pour off what I think I need into a smaller jar, maybe a pint or less and treat that.

For oil bore stains/dyes, a teaspoon or two of turpentine per quart seems to help.

I really don't use alcohol based dyes at all but they shouldn't need much help with surface tension.

[Wayne Lomman]

Mark, I agree with John. It looks like there may be dust still in the bottom of the grain. Coarse grained timbers need a really good clean out before finishing. Blow it and brush it down rigorously but keep the air nozzle a few inches from the surface. Run it too close and the air will draw lines on the surface that can take stain differently and be visible. Finishing sanding at 150 is ideal for coarse grained timber.

Stains apply perfectly well with a rag. I guess I am out of fashion or whatever, but all the foam brushes etc are just ways to lighten your wallet when in fact staining and polishing is the perfect end use for worn out cotton clothing, bed sheets etc. Synthetic fibres just don't cut it. Cheers

[Phil Mueller]

Mark, I ran into the same issue when refinishing a friend’s 1950ish family heirloom table (a complete mess from water stains and who knows what). I posted a question about it as well, and some suggested that white oak pores can sometimes have a tough time taking any type of stain. Here’s what the oak looked like after one application of Watco medium walnut (flooded on, let soak for 30 minutes, wipe off).


377410

So then I did a few additional applications with Watco dark walnut and wet sanded to try to get some sanding slurry into the pores. That didn’t eliminate it, but did darken them up some.

I finally decided it was what it was. Here’s the end result:

377411

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, I ran into the same issue when refinishing a friend’s 1950ish family heirloom table (a complete mess from water stains and who knows what).

...

So then I did a few additional applications with Watco dark walnut and wet sanded to try to get some sanding slurry into the pores. That didn’t eliminate it, but did darken them up some.

I finally decided it was what it was. Here’s the end result:

377411

Thanks Phil,

Is the color in your final photo fairly accurate? I'm guessing you added something else in the schedule, the Watco Walnut is 'browner', not so much yellow/orange.

Did you use a topcoat over the Danish oil?

[mark mcfarlane]

I've had the best results using a Taklon brush, I have some that are upto 3" wide and work well. You still have to work at it but the fine bristles carry the pigment into the pores.

John, I tried another test last night and used a fingernail brush to vigorously rub in the danish oil. I think it helped, but perhaps only marginally. I didn't do two tests, with and without brush, side by side. I should have: bad science on my part.

[Phil Mueller]

The lighting does “orange” it up. Actual color was more like the legs/stretchers. I just finished it with paste wax. Come to think of it, it might have been interesting to try a brown colored wax...

[John TenEyck]

Maybe not for this project, Mark, but for the future consider SW's BAC Wiping Stain. It is the most amazing solvent based stain I've ever used. One coat gives deep color and I've had complete success with it on white oak. It dries in only an hour or two as well, so you can move on quickly. You need to spray a sealer over it, but if you don't have spray equipment you can use rattle can shellac, and then whatever you want over that.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ECsmBbWA37IbpxvGGeaAHqxhVgA3X-20Jg8ez3YBY0VJabBfxjQksQRMHpuP-l6MSwSX95tybZYE0CKfzfNep76AQN5vrVGPg7jVeK2pfDqA5xl UhoWMY2puQBfEGxqYpZWGSMZnFCkxFuzfrsnJaM5izEFf_VuqS CSsA76qxaMZ9urxwFKY6kcrv3ODitsIDxG_ER6a79SAh_rsJ_Q 72g9FY5fpH-jaOQeoCAD54Gi-lH1DmflHd5Wix_i82TXFlc5hisVfT_yna_5CdVY8D_QfUZ4Kkx b2UvtsltDZ_3AY4gVk2PRK5qmO-JHkJVyYSPYEZw1wPTH4_xcFzjkkczUIkJCYpqzsAMPYBLBoFy_ DHS0GWvBVVa89Vz_queDe26yS78xJkpnWqjwfdcQGgdxkqZY53 mwPEPBSBe3VEQBufF0qbkXFY0wd2-mG_z8n167R4r5v4Ojt5-bKHjHmfgpm4ot3wJ1Wc7J1p7Cvdb6Yhht39LmTPmVaM8bMSVCJ Hdua53BK2vM-Kqz7UoipA5mXAalHYV-DGackIg12rYPkldVB8wAWtb-cfPDYx5bIOLXxL3SHO1YlOAizRIhG9yKVgaXc3x1nmSJQqOW4f jvtgMX9uj753F-LMKwjipDbHOAb_iNukSXvjZ140rcnSY9hKN_FvZKlDg=w838-h628-no

John

[Steve Swinehart]

One of the problems with white oak is that the wood has tyloses. These are outgrowths or "bubbles" on parenchyma cells of xylem vessels of secondary heartwood. They dam up the cells, effectively making the cells impervious to liquids. This is why wine and whiskey barrels are made from white oak - the wood is essentially waterproof because of the tyloses in the wood cells. I'm bringing this up because that's part of the problem in getting white oak to accept any kind of liquid stain into some of the wood pores - the wood won't absorb the liquid. This means you may have to apply a different strategy to get an even stain application. Stains that sit on the wood's surface, like gel stains can help solve the problem. You may want to try adding a gel stain as a final application.

[mark mcfarlane]

The lighting does “orange” it up. Actual color was more like the legs/stretchers. I just finished it with paste wax. Come to think of it, it might have been interesting to try a brown colored wax...

Thanks Phil.

I don't suppose you know what kind of use your friends table is getting, and if the wax over Danish was enough protection. The end tables I am making are going to get pretty heavy daily use, drinks, meals,... but I really like the ultimate simplicity of wax over Danish.


FWIW, I just built a somewhat large new shop in celebration of my retirement. This is the first piece to be produced and I suspect all of my family and a few neighbors are going to be scrutinizing it, and hopefully not thinking 'nice shop, no skills'. :) I know how fast a bad finish can ruin a piece.

I went out tonight and got some yellow transtint, orange shellac, golden danish,..., oh ya, and some Bloxygen. I figure I'm already in about $200 for the sample finish materials for this project, so the Bloxygen should help preserve some of that investment. Eventually all the dye, stains, topcoat, and solvents will get used. :)

I suspect if those of you who have been finishing furniture for the past decade looked at all the finishing supplies in your shop, you'd be amazed at the investment. I should have had 'finishing supplies' in my original shop budget, alongside the tools.
SaveSave

[mark mcfarlane]

Maybe not for this project, Mark, but for the future consider SW's BAC Wiping Stain. ...
John

Thanks for the tip John. It's a 25 minute drive to SW and an hour drive to Woodcraft, so it could also be helpful to find products that are easier to 'run out and grab some more'.

[mark mcfarlane]

One of the problems with white oak is that the wood has tyloses. These are outgrowths or "bubbles" on parenchyma cells of xylem vessels of secondary heartwood. They dam up the cells, effectively making the cells impervious to liquids. This is why wine and whiskey barrels are made from white oak - the wood is essentially waterproof because of the tyloses in the wood cells. I'm bringing this up because that's part of the problem in getting white oak to accept any kind of liquid stain into some of the wood pores - the wood won't absorb the liquid. This means you may have to apply a different strategy to get an even stain application. Stains that sit on the wood's surface, like gel stains can help solve the problem. You may want to try adding a gel stain as a final application.

Thanks Steve for the info. It makes sense this could be my problem, I just surprised I hadn't heard about it before, with white pine being such a common material.

The problem of 'dye not soaking in' that I am seeing on my project is only visible at a limited range of angles, ~45 degrees off the surface, so it is 'liveable'.

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, I agree with John. It looks like there may be dust still in the bottom of the grain. Coarse grained timbers need a really good clean out before finishing. Blow it and brush it down rigorously but keep the air nozzle a few inches from the surface. Run it too close and the air will draw lines on the surface that can take stain differently and be visible. Finishing sanding at 150 is ideal for coarse grained timber.

Stains apply perfectly well with a rag. I guess I am out of fashion or whatever, but all the foam brushes etc are just ways to lighten your wallet when in fact staining and polishing is the perfect end use for worn out cotton clothing, bed sheets etc. Synthetic fibres just don't cut it. Cheers

Thanks Wayne. I typically use rags, or paper tolls to apply dye/stain. Maybe a foam brush to flood a larger surface.

[Marc Jeske]

Be aware, SW stores do NOT all carry same products.

They have like 3 or 4 like different divisions, not totally obvious unless you already know.

Call ahead to avoid disappointment.

I just purchased two more gal of BAC, really like the stuff.

Marc

[mark mcfarlane]

Be aware, SW stores do NOT all carry same products.

They have like 3 or 4 like different divisions, not totally obvious unless you already know.

Call ahead to avoid disappointment.

I just purchased two more gal of BAC, really like the stuff.

Marc

Thanks Marc.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the tip John. It's a 25 minute drive to SW and an hour drive to Woodcraft, so it could also be helpful to find products that are easier to 'run out and grab some more'.

Mark, ask for a BAC Wiping Stain brochure the next time you are at SW's. It will show you all the stock colors. I have used those a couple of times. More often, however, I have had SW start with one of the stock colors and then custom tint it to the color I needed. That is another great thing about the BAC Wiping Stains. Custom tinting is an option at no extra charge. Once I worked with the tech. for at least 45 minutes making adjustments and wiping it on a sample board to see if the color was correct. No extra charge!

If you've never used solvent based dye stain before you are in for a pleasant surprise compared to typical pigment type oil stains.

John

Oh yeah, one more thing. You can adjust the color yourself with Transtint dyes if you first add the Transtint dye to a little acetone, and then add that mixture to the BAC wiping stain.

[Phil Mueller]

Mark, I was told it wouldn't get too much use, so I went with the simple finish. The upside is that if something does happen, it's pretty easy to strip the wax and redo the damaged area.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Phil.



I suspect if those of you who have been finishing furniture for the past decade looked at all the finishing supplies in your shop, you'd be amazed at the investment. I should have had 'finishing supplies' in my original shop budget, alongside the tools.
SaveSave



How true. I have 4 or 5 shelves about 2' deep by at least 3' wide filled with finishing supplies. More piled on the floor in front. And more on a couple smaller shelves. Yikes, I've got thousands of $'s sitting there.

John

[Rob Luter]

Here's an example of Watco Dark Walnut Danish Oil. I sanded the frame to a very fine grit, then blew the pores out with compressed air. Note: I used a small compressor with no oiler of any kind. I flooded the piece with oil that had been well shaken to assure any pigment particles were well suspended. I let it soak in for quite a long time, then wiped across the grain with t-shirt material to remove the excess. Topcoat is garnet shellac and brown tinted wax.



https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4083/4964851812_36d8449481_b.jpg

Here's another example with the same schedule. This time with some rift sawn white oak.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4106/4964852124_5415c32a44_b.jpg

You might try sanding to a finer grit, or burnishing the surface with a handful of shavings to impede absorption in the non pore areas. I've taken to using a different approach lately, where I apply an aniline dye first, sand lightly, apply a wipe on stain, and then use a penetrating oil. It produces a nice finish with pronounced pore and flake contrast. See table below. Sorry for the huge image.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/771/33227080646_fd916c4cdf_k.jpg

[mark mcfarlane]

Here's an example of Watco Dark Walnut Danish Oil. ...

Thanks Rob for sharing the examples.

[Rob Luter]

Thanks Rob for sharing the examples.

You Betcha. I used to have the same issues with pores that didn't fill and really blowing them out thoroughly combined with letting the oil finish soak in a long time made all the difference.