Paring Chisels

[ken hatch]

Good new paring chisels are hard to find. The ones that come to mind are Japanese push chisels, Blue Spruce, Narex, and Robert Sorby. The other sources are boot sales and auction sites for used chisels. I have some vintage paring chisels and Japanese push chisels along with a set of new paring chisels made by Sorby.

The Sorby chisels are really sweet, hitting everything I want in a paring chisel, a long thin blade of good HC steel with comfortable handle and good balance. As with all things wood YMMV but the Sorby's are as good as it gets. I just wish they made then in a firmer style as well as beveled edge.

A couple of photos of the Sorby's with some Japanese push chisels:

377254

377255

ken

[lowell holmes]

I have a chisel roll full of a mixed bag of chisels. I really favor the Lie Nielsen chisels in the roll.

[Christopher Charles]

Nice! Let me know before those Japanese chisels go to the next boot sale :)

[ken hatch]

I have a chisel roll full of a mixed bag of chisels. I really favor the Lie Nielsen chisels in the roll.

Lowell,

Last time I looked at the LN site there were two problems with the chisel offered, first A2 steel, my work flow and sharpening doesn't match up well with A2, second I didn't see any paring chisels. I guess I could add a third problem as well, all the chisels were socket and I much prefer chisels with tangs. Of course different things blow different skirts and bottom line it ain't the tool it is the hands.

ken

[ken hatch]

Nice! Let me know before those Japanese chisels go to the next boot sale :)

Chris,

LOL, My Japanese chisels I expect will be sold by MsBubba for what I told her I paid for them. At least I will not be around to cry.

ken

[Christopher Charles]

Good hear and no surprise that they are on the A-team!

[Mike Allen1010]

Good new paring chisels are hard to find. The ones that come to mind are Japanese push chisels, Blue Spruce, Narex, and Robert Sorby. The other sources are boot sales and auction sites for used chisels. I have some vintage paring chisels and Japanese push chisels along with a set of new paring chisels made by Sorby.

The Sorby chisels are really sweet, hitting everything I want in a paring chisel, a long thin blade of good HC steel with comfortable handle and good balance. As with all things wood YMMV but the Sorby's are as good as it gets. I just wish they made then in a firmer style as well as beveled edge.

A couple of photos of the Sorby's with some Japanese push chisels:

377254

377255

ken


Ken, thanks for sharing pictures of your paring chisels.


FWIW, quality paring chisels are among the hand tools I waited far too long in my woodworking journey to acquire. They are among the most used tools in my shop; ideal for paring the shoulder along a marking knife line for precision saw cuts, trimming Tennon shoulders/cheeks etc. One of my most prized tools is a Berg paring chisel I inherited from my grandfather – some of the best steel in the shop and always a joy to use.


For those that don't have a quality paring chisel in your kit, I'd encourage you to consider making that year next tool purchase.


Best, Mike

[steven c newman]

Or wait until Fathers' Day, and shop at Aldi's...like Paul Sellers did?
377288

[ken hatch]

Ken, thanks for sharing pictures of your paring chisels.


FWIW, quality paring chisels are among the hand tools I waited far too long in my woodworking journey to acquire. They are among the most used tools in my shop; ideal for paring the shoulder along a marking knife line for precision saw cuts, trimming Tennon shoulders/cheeks etc. One of my most prized tools is a Berg paring chisel I inherited from my grandfather – some of the best steel in the shop and always a joy to use.


For those that don't have a quality paring chisel in your kit, I'd encourage you to consider making that year next tool purchase.


Best, Mike

Thanks Mike,

I agree with everything you said. For too long I've chased pattern maker's chisels through the used market with the usual high burn rate to find good ones. Tiring of the chase, for the last few years I've used Japanese push chisels for paring work but still wanting a good set of pattern makers. Of some reason I never thought of looking at the Sorby catalog. Bottom line they are there and at a fair price, what a joy to use.

"For those that don't have a quality paring chisel in your kit, I'd encourage you to consider making that year next tool purchase." Hear, hear.

ken

[ken hatch]

Or wait until Fathers' Day, and shop at Aldi's...like Paul Sellers did?
377288

Steven,

I should have been a little more careful with my words. While any chisel can be used as a paring chisel what I referred to as a paring chisel is in reality a pattern makers chisel with a long very thin blade designed for precision work.

ken

[Christopher Charles]

I've been thinking that some paring chisels are next on the list. What sizes do you fine gentlemen use most?

Best,
Chris

[Peter Gavin]

You reference the Narex, but I wonder if they can be truly considered paring chisels since they are not flexible. Don't get me wrong, I have a set and I enjoy using them, but I wonder whether the ability to slightly flex is a 'nice to have' or an 'essential' feature of a 'paring' chisel. Do your Sorby and Japanese chisels have some flex?

Peter

[Mel Fulks]

Ken, glad your Sorby's are good, but in previous threads many of us found them way too soft. I would be careful and test any used ones.

[ken hatch]

I've been thinking that some paring chisels are next on the list. What sizes do you fine gentlemen use most?

Best,
Chris

Chris,

I use the 38mm, slightly over 1 1/2', most followed by the 25mm, just under 1". The others get used but not as much as the wider chisels. BTW, it's a good plan to get a couple of paring chisels, Mike knows of what he speaks :-).


ken

[ken hatch]

You reference the Narex, but I wonder if they can be truly considered paring chisels since they are not flexible. Don't get me wrong, I have a set and I enjoy using them, but I wonder whether the ability to slightly flex is a 'nice to have' or an 'essential' feature of a 'paring' chisel. Do your Sorby and Japanese chisels have some flex?

Peter

Peter,

I agree, the blades are much too thick. I expect they are nice long chisels for the folks that can stand the handle but they are not pattern maker chisels. The Sorby's slightly, the Japanese not really.

ken

[ken hatch]

Ken, glad your Sorby's are good, but in previous threads many of us found them way too soft. I would be careful and test any used ones.

Mel,

For some of us hard steel is over rated. Edge retention is pretty far down my list, balance, comfort and ease of sharpening are much higher but thanks for the heads up. I'm not buying used.

ken

[Phil Mueller]

Ken, thank you for posting this. As with the others, I find I use chisels for paring more than almost anything else. I like the idea that the Sorby’s come at 20 degrees (right?). Do you maintain the 20, or are you adding a micro bevel? My point of the question is that I don’t have a grinder and maintaining an edge at the primary bevel can be time consuming. Is the metal “soft” enough to “touch up” the primary bevel?

[ken hatch]

Ken, thank you for posting this. As with the others, I find I use chisels for paring more than almost anything else. I like the idea that the Sorby’s come at 20 degrees (right?). Do you maintain the 20, or are you adding a micro bevel? My point of the question is that I don’t have a grinder and maintaining an edge at the primary bevel can be time consuming. Is the metal “soft” enough to “touch up” the primary bevel?

Phil,

I just checked the bevel on a couple I've only sharpened a couple of times and the bevels were between 20 and 22 degrees. They come hollow ground, with a hollow ground bevel I will usually just keep the same angle until I flatten out the hollow. I'm not sure if you would call the iron "soft" but it is easy to maintain with either Ark or Shapton stones.

ken

[steven c newman]

And these aren't.......hmmm, maybe I am using mine wrong.......Anyway, have fun with them new toys....

[ken hatch]

And these aren't.......hmmm, maybe I am using mine wrong.......Anyway, have fun with them new toys....

Steven,

Nope they are not pattern maker chisels, I doubt you are using them wrong because as I posted before any chisel can be used to pare. Some are just better at it than others. Another way to look at it, Lee Trevino used to hustle golf by playing with a coke bottle. Skill doesn't need perfect tools.

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe it was a Dr. Pepper bottle, as proper for a Texas boy.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks Ken!

[ken hatch]

I believe it was a Dr. Pepper bottle, as proper for a Texas boy.

David,

I stand corrected :mad:. Although if he had just finished eating BBQ it might have been a Big Red:).

ken

[Jim Koepke]

As previously discussed, just about any chisel can be used for paring.

Also mentioned about paring tasks, having a chisel 'tuned' specifically for paring is more efficient and to many it is more enjoyable.

My set of Buck Brother's chisels are all ground to ~20º for the purpose of paring. My hunt for a 1/4" BB socket chisel hasn't yet been successful.

Here are all but one or two of my chisels used mostly for paring:

377346

The ones larger than 1" are not included. And yes, sometimes my dovetails are on 2X4s or larger pieces using a larger chisel. On the far left are a couple of 1/2" Witherby square edge chisels that are ground skew. Next is a pair of no name 1/4" chisels also ground skew. These are helpful for getting into tight spots. One of my plans is to purchase a couple more 1/4" chisels over time and make a pair with less skew. They would be used on half blind dovetails. My idea is to skew them just enough so the edge is against the back wall as the tip reaches the back corner of the socket. This would likely be ~5º give or take a degree or two.

One of the features of a chisel for dovetail work and other paring is a low profile of the lands or the sides:

377347

This lets the user get into a tight spot without bruising the work.

One of the "no name" 1/4" chisels does have some marks on it:

377348

It doesn't matter much to me, but if anyone has any ideas pass it on.

jtk

[James Waldron]

Ken, glad your Sorby's are good, but in previous threads many of us found them way too soft. I would be careful and test any used ones.


Mel,

For some of us hard steel is over rated. Edge retention is pretty far down my list, balance, comfort and ease of sharpening are much higher but thanks for the heads up. I'm not buying used.

ken

I"ve got two sets, one of Sorby bench chisels and one of Sorby paring chisels. And I do a good bit of work in demanding materials, e.g. white oak, hard maple, teak and hickory. I find the Sorby edge retention quite respectable. Compared to an A2 bench chisel I have, the Sorby begins to show a bit of edge dulling just about the same amount of time for the A2 to start showing edge micro-chipping. On the other hand, the A2 will continue to do "OK" work for many purposes for a while after the earliest micro-chipping, so if that's the performance you want, you can benefit from A2. For me, I'd rather just turn to my ultrafine Spyderco stone as soon as my edge begins to bog down and, in two minutes or less, I'm back in business.

Haven't compared to PM chisels, so I don't know. By all reports, they may be better than both the Sorby and the A2. On the other hand, in the context of this thread, I haven't seen any pattern maker's chisels in PM V11 or other PM alloy.

[ken hatch]

As previously discussed, just about any chisel can be used for paring.

Also mentioned about paring tasks, having a chisel 'tuned' specifically for paring is more efficient and to many it is more enjoyable.

My set of Buck Brother's chisels are all ground to ~20º for the purpose of paring. My hunt for a 1/4" BB socket chisel hasn't yet been successful.

Here are all but one or two of my chisels used mostly for paring:

377346

The ones larger than 1" are not included. And yes, sometimes my dovetails are on 2X4s or larger pieces using a larger chisel. On the far left are a couple of 1/2" Witherby square edge chisels that are ground skew. Next is a pair of no name 1/4" chisels also ground skew. These are helpful for getting into tight spots. One of my plans is to purchase a couple more 1/4" chisels over time and make a pair with less skew. They would be used on half blind dovetails. My idea is to skew them just enough so the edge is against the back wall as the tip reaches the back corner of the socket. This would likely be ~5º give or take a degree or two.

One of the features of a chisel for dovetail work and other paring is a low profile of the lands or the sides:

377347

This lets the user get into a tight spot without bruising the work.

One of the "no name" 1/4" chisels does have some marks on it:

377348

It doesn't matter much to me, but if anyone has any ideas pass it on.

jtk

Jim,

If you do not have any you might like Union Hardware chisels. They are socket chisels and have short blades but the blade is very thin in profile. The ones I have are sharpened around 20 degrees and hold their edge very well for a 20 degree bevel.

ken

[ken hatch]

I"ve got two sets, one of Sorby bench chisels and one of Sorby paring chisels. And I do a good bit of work in demanding materials, e.g. white oak, hard maple, teak and hickory. I find the Sorby edge retention quite respectable. Compared to an A2 bench chisel I have, the Sorby begins to show a bit of edge dulling just about the same amount of time for the A2 to start showing edge micro-chipping. On the other hand, the A2 will continue to do "OK" work for many purposes for a while after the earliest micro-chipping, so if that's the performance you want, you can benefit from A2. For me, I'd rather just turn to my ultrafine Spyderco stone as soon as my edge begins to bog down and, in two minutes or less, I'm back in business.

Haven't compared to PM chisels, so I don't know. By all reports, they may be better than both the Sorby and the A2. On the other hand, in the context of this thread, I haven't seen any pattern maker's chisels in PM V11 or other PM alloy.

Jim,

You said it much better than I have, As a practical mater A2 is over rated for chisel use, YMMV. I have some PM v11 chisels, they are ok for chisel use but not life changing. It is really hard to beat plain HC steel for chisels. Best I can tell new pattern maker chisels other than Sorby do not exist.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

If you do not have any you might like Union Hardware chisels. They are socket chisels and have short blades but the blade is very thin in profile. The ones I have are sharpened around 20 degrees and hold their edge very well for a 20 degree bevel.

ken

Thanks Ken, There are a few Union chisels in my accumulation. If my memory is correct my 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" paring chisel is a Union chisel.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I keep a diamond hone on the bench. When the edge needs touching up, I hit the hone, strop it on leather rawhide charged with green honing compound.
The edges are scalpel sharp. If the handles tend to fall off, sand the end that goes in the socket a bit and they don't fall off. I like the feel and balance.
My chisels never see a grinder.

[Tommy Martin]

I have BS paring chisels with the long handle. Very well made tools. Quite happy with them. I also have a 42 mm Japanese push chisel I like it as well.

[ken hatch]

I keep a diamond hone on the bench. When the edge needs touching up, I hit the hone, strop it on leather rawhide charged with green honing compound.
The edges are scalpel sharp. If the handles tend to fall off, sand the end that goes in the socket a bit and they don't fall off. I like the feel and balance.
My chisels never see a grinder.

Lowell,

Sounds like you have found a system that works for you, many never do.

Good on you,

ken

[Patrick Walsh]

Funny enough I just flattened the backs of these today.

I purchased a set of like seven used but new for a forum member about a year ago. I have used A couple but not all of them. I never set them up as they were plenty sharp when I purchased them.

I believe the seller said they had been setup but as I found today the backs were not even close to flat. Sadly the largest size and my favorite piece middle section of the tool was low in relation to the sides creating a pretty ugly ura after flattening :(

What are you gonna do ther tools for working not for looking at.

I tell you this they are sharp as can be now and pure joy in use. Worth every penny!

377394377395377396377397377402377403377404

[Matt Lau]

For those of you guys with both the Sorby and Blue Spruce paring chisels...what do you think?

A few years back, I bought a 1" Blue spruce paring chisel.
It's beautiful, well balanced, and a work of art.
However, I wasn't impressed with the sharpness, like with the chisels Stan got me.

Not sure about the Sorby's?

I'm intrigued about the flex (which my LMI chisels have in droves), but addicted to the pleasure of a truly sharp white steel chisel.

[James Waldron]

Jim,

You said it much better than I have, As a practical mater A2 is over rated for chisel use, YMMV. I have some PM v11 chisels, they are ok for chisel use but not life changing. It is really hard to beat plain HC steel for chisels. Best I can tell new pattern maker chisels other than Sorby do not exist.

ken

I've had a couple of thoughts I wish I had thought to include in my first post above:

First, my A2 chisels seem to feel still sharp and efficient when I can begin to see a bit of "roughness" on the cut surface of the wood. On inspection of the magnified edge, at this point, I begin to see some "micro-fractures" at the edge, but not enough to make the chisel drag in the cut. The Sorby chisels, on the other hand, seem to produce a good surface until I feel the edge begin to drag in the cut. Under magnification, there are no "micro-fractures but a general dulling of the edge pretty uniformly across the edge. The surface of the cut remains good to this point. In both these cases, a considerable amount of work gets done before the need to hone the edge.

Second, the Sorby is very quick and very easy to hone to a "wowser" edge on my ultrafine Spyderco; the A2 takes a materially longer effort, long enough to really interrupt the flow of my work. That is quite enough to relegate my A2 chisels to dust collectors.

[lowell holmes]

I just looked down the thread. One thing I think is that a chisel should never see grinder unless it was dropped and chipped, broken, or damaged.
A sharpening system using stones and strops should be in place. A coarse diamond stone will take a lot of metal off in a hurry. A finer diamond stone will
leave a smother surface. A good leather strop charged with green sharpening compound will produce razor sharp edges.
If you need to strike a chisel it should be a tap with mallet. I can chisel translucent shavings with my chisels.

My hones stay out on the bench during a woodworking session. If you have issues with honing by hand, practice.

Different strokes for different folks as the saying goes.

[Stanley Covington]

More than any other variety, paring chisels must cut smoothly, cleanly, and handle deftly. To this end, extreme sharpness is critical. And being able to restore that extreme sharpness quickly is important.

Barking up the wrong tree if you expect super sharpness and ease of sharpening from A2. Just ain't going to happen. If you believe otherwise, I suggest you expand your horizons.

I own and have used A2 chisels by several makers including Lee Nielson. I have owned and used Sorby paring chisels, back before they bothered to list the designation of the tool steel they used. It was obviously an alloy containing chrome and moly and vanadium of the type easy to stamp, machine, and heat treat without careful attention or much skill. They are all mass-produced, factory-run, machine cut and oven-heat treated tools. They are OK tools. But not good enough for paring.

Like Patrick said, nothing beats pure high carbon steel for a paring chisel. And to this I would add "hand-forged" for the further improvements it provides.

[John C Cox]

I have been casting about with my chisels trying to find one which will do well on end grain spruce for my guitar work..

Groan!

You would think that a wood so "soft" would be ridiculously easy to work end grain... But the stuff eats chisels in ways oak, cherry, and mahogany only dream of... The fibers are so long that it won't cut unless it's scalpel sharp... But then the hard grain lines seem to just roll that ultra fine sharp edge... Then they won't cut at all... Switch to mahogany and it acts like a fresh chisel.... But yep - the edge is rolled and it's done..:.

Do I just need to try a good Japanese paring chisel?

[Andrew Hughes]

I've noticed the same thing John, I do have Japanese push chisels and they do better then my Stanley's.
But I still use a slicing motion and take small bites.
Douglas fir is the worst with it's hard and soft layers.

[Patrick Chase]

For those of you guys with both the Sorby and Blue Spruce paring chisels...what do you think?

A few years back, I bought a 1" Blue spruce paring chisel.
It's beautiful, well balanced, and a work of art.
However, I wasn't impressed with the sharpness, like with the chisels Stan got me.

Blue Spruce's choice of A2 for paring chisels was/is insane IMO. Relative to high carbon steel as in Sorby, A2 gives you higher wear resistance at the cost of lower edge acuity and requiring a higher tip angle to avoid chipping. Paring chisels are typically used to take light, delicate cuts, preferably at low angles, so A2's attributes are simply inappropriate to the task.

It's a pity, because they're gorgeously made and finished tools.

[Stanley Covington]

I've noticed the same thing John, I do have Japanese push chisels and they do better then my Stanley's.
But I still use a slicing motion and take small bites.
Douglas fir is the worst with it's hard and soft layers.

Agreed. With the exception of the tropical hardwoods with their hardness and silica particles, DF is about as difficult to work cleanly with a paring chisel as can be found.

[Stanley Covington]

Funny enough I just flattened the backs of these today.

I purchased a set of like seven used but new for a forum member about a year ago. I have used A couple but not all of them. I never set them up as they were plenty sharp when I purchased them.

I believe the seller said they had been setup but as I found today the backs were not even close to flat. Sadly the largest size and my favorite piece middle section of the tool was low in relation to the sides creating a pretty ugly ura after flattening :(

What are you gonna do ther tools for working not for looking at.

I tell you this they are sharp as can be now and pure joy in use. Worth every penny!

377394377395377396377397377402377403377404

Patrick:

Beautiful chisels!

Imai san (Fujihiro brand) is a well-know 2nd generation Sanjo blacksmith.

I have a couple of his kanari-style paring chisels (relatively thin) I bought 6 or 7 years ago at a big discount from a hardware store here in Tokyo going out of business. I had never heard of him before then. They are easy to sharpen (Blue steel?), cut very well, fit into tight spots better than standard tsukinomi, and spend most of their time on my benchtop serving guard duty, but I pull out my Kiyotada chisels when I need to do serious paring. The flats were in good shape when new as I recall.

I have ordered his products for customers a couple of times when specifically requested, but his prices are higher than normal, and his delivery time is longer than normal (3 months), so it is difficult to order from him casually. The finish of his blades are above average, as are his prices. The chisels he has made for me have all been pretty flat. I am dismayed to hear that the flats on your chisels where badly out of tolerance. That is unacceptable.

I understand he spends his mornings working for someone else, and only works on his orders in the afternoon. I am told he has shifted his focus from chisels to blades for specialty planes. Strange.

The layered jigane is pretty, but I don't like it. I am always suspicious of polished blades since removing the oxide eliminates any tell-tale signs of heat treatment problems. But I doubt that's a problem with Imai san's blades.

Please let me know your impression after using them some.

Regards,

Stan

[John C Cox]

Sounds like I am not alone in my trouble with end grain spruce and doug fir...

What then is the trick for these? What do you guys like best when battling these end grain beasts...

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, those are looking pretty sweet. Nice work!

Here are my paring chisels, Konobu K120:

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/img_7477-2305926731-1504230910205.jpg

[Brian Holcombe]

Sounds like I am not alone in my trouble with end grain spruce and doug fir...

What then is the trick for these? What do you guys like best when battling these end grain beasts...

Softwoods, especially Fir and Western Red Cedar present a unique set of challenges, they’re easy to work and extraordinarily difficult to work to an exceptionally clean surface.

There are many tricks, I like to do almost all of the chopping work bevel down, and sharpen very often.

[Stanley Covington]

Sounds like I am not alone in my trouble with end grain spruce and doug fir...

What then is the trick for these? What do you guys like best when battling these end grain beasts...

1. Durable yet still effective cutting edge angle;
2. Sharp
3. Oilpot to reduce friction and improve control

[Jim Koepke]

Sounds like I am not alone in my trouble with end grain spruce and doug fir...

What then is the trick for these? What do you guys like best when battling these end grain beasts...

My strategy is a chisel that works with an as sharp as can be low angle bevel ~15-20º.

A slicing motion while taking a thin shaving also helps.

jtk

[Patrick Walsh]

Stan thank you I actually like them very much.

Regardless of the one large slick having a bad back “my favorite to date” it works more than fine so I suppose what is the problem. Sure it’s layered sword steel White #1 and supposed to be all pretty, and yes part of why I purchased them. But let’s face it tools are to be used and if they work properly and it more than does what can one really complain about. The tool gets razor sharp, holds its edge for a long time and the back is flat even if ugly as sin.

I am not going to badmouth Mr.Imai as we all turnout work we are not proud of more than most of us will admit. The fact is some of it sneaks by all of us and some of us let it out as we have to. I’m not perfect and have to let less than perfect work off my bench as my boss has to make money so he can pay me. Few can and are willing to pay for perfection.

On a separate not I spent my afternoon shopping huge ticket top of the line Martin machines and man are they perfect works or art on their own right. seems Martin also strive for perfection as does I’m sure Mr Imai..

[Patrick Walsh]

Brian,

Not to shabby yourself sensei.

This is by no way not criticism but rather a observation. I am clearly still elbow deep in the learning process as you well know with regard to Japanese tools and woodworking.

I notice your tools also have areas of more and less polish or a slightly irregular scratch pattern and or differing cloudiness and polish. Not so much a irregular scratch pattern but a random scratch here or there. I know you can be sensitive so please don’t take this as me being critical as I have the utmost respect for both you and your work.

I have worked tirelessly to flatten the back of a tool as to get a 100% even scratch pattern and or polish “not aiming for a polish” free of the slightest variation. I think thus far I achieved such on one or two pieces “sans strop, I don’t own one nor will I ever out of maybe twentyntools I have worked thus far.

To me it’s seems maybe a wasted venture as at the point both are tools indicate in pictures you they are razor sharp as the back is flat at the cutting edge and the bevel the same.

Anyway all I’m saying is your tools look awesome but also put in perspective for me that the perfection I am seeking may not be realistic or nessiary.

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian,

Not to shabby yourself sensei.

This is by no way not criticism but rather a observation. I am clearly still elbow deep in the learning process as you well know with regard to Japanese tools and woodworking.

I notice your tools also have areas of more and less polish or a slightly irregular scratch pattern and or differing cloudiness and polish. Not so much a irregular scratch pattern but a random scratch here or there. I know you can be sensitive so please don’t take this as me being critical as I have the utmost respect for both you and your work.

I have worked tirelessly to flatten the back of a tool as to get a 100% even scratch pattern and or polish “not aiming for a polish” free of the slightest variation. I think thus far I achieved such on one or two pieces “sans strop, I don’t own one nor will I ever out of maybe twentyntools I have worked thus far.

To me it’s seems maybe a wasted venture as at the point both are tools indicate in pictures you they are razor sharp as the back is flat at the cutting edge and the bevel the same.

Anyway all I’m saying is your tools look awesome but also put in perspective for me that the perfection I am seeking may not be realistic or nessiary.

Thank you!

Good observations, these chisels are actually maintained with ura-dashi (tapping out) since they're constructed more similarly to plane blades than to a normal chisel. There are no hardened ears turned up at the sides of the chisel. When I perform ura-dashi I flatten the back just enough to get that bright edge right behind the cutting edge and not more. The reason is that it will blend over time, so 5-10 sharpenings or so. I dont need to sharpen these chisels very often so that might be a few months for this set.

So, it's not a wasted effort at all, it's a great learning experience and over time you'll find which tools can be maintained like these and which require super flat backs.

As example, here is an example of chu-tataki that are made more typically (they have ears, the area where the steel is folded up). I do also use some ura-dashi when setting these up, but I would not typically maintain them with much ura-dashi.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_9286-2900090735-1517373045663.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_9285-902991573-1517373064633.jpg

[Stanley Covington]

Stan thank you I actually like them very much.

Regardless of the one large slick having a bad back “my favorite to date” it works more than fine so I suppose what is the problem. Sure it’s layered sword steel White #1 and supposed to be all pretty, and yes part of why I purchased them. But let’s face it tools are to be used and if they work properly and it more than does what can one really complain about. The tool gets razor sharp, holds its edge for a long time and the back is flat even if ugly as sin.

I am not going to badmouth Mr.Imai as we all turnout work we are not proud of more than most of us will admit. The fact is some of it sneaks by all of us and some of us let it out as we have to. I’m not perfect and have to let less than perfect work off my bench as my boss has to make money so he can pay me. Few can and are willing to pay for perfection.

On a separate not I spent my afternoon shopping huge ticket top of the line Martin machines and man are they perfect works or art on their own right. seems Martin also strive for perfection as does I’m sure Mr Imai..

Patrick:

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not criticizing Imai san's products in any way.

IN GENERAL, I don't like the layered "Damascus" style of jigane in chisels or blades. It does indeed look pretty, but it is a counterproductive detail that does not improve the chisels performance, while adding to its cost.

You referred to "layered sword steel White #1." There is no such metal. I suspect you instead meant the cutting edge was made from Hitachi Metal's Yasuki Shirogami #1 high carbon steel. A good product that frequently makes a superior cutting edge.

By "layered" I assume you mean the lamination of low-carbon jigane body/neck/tang and the high-carbon cutting edge. But the pretty layering visible at the blade's bevel in your pictures is in the jigane, which is certainly not high-carbon steel. Pattern layer steel like that is usually made by combining layers of plain jigane with low-carbon steel layers containing a bit of nickle. I understand it is typically factory made and purchased by the blacksmith already pre-layered. The nickle makes the jigane somewhat harder to sharpen, and it may not ride the stones as well. Perhaps your blade is different.

Of course, you know that Japanese swords are not layered, and that the pattern in the blade is formed by differential heat treatment, although they do have internal laminations not visible (except perhaps at the very back/ridge in some blade styles.

Hitachi's expressed goal in developing the blue, white yellow steel at their Yasuki factory was to produce a steel similar to the Tamahagane used in making swords. This was all hype because these steels are not similar to tamahagane at all. But part of the hype Hitachi cooked up at the time was to call it "sword steel." A lot of blacksmiths, especially sawsmiths, rode this hype as far as it would take them. I have several saws labeled "Tamahagane," made 30 or 40 years ago, which are actually Yasuki Shirogami #2. I also have saws made from actual tamahagane before Edwards Steel was imported into Japan from England. A very different product.

Polished blades are pretty too, and are not counterproductive in any way. But there have been blacksmiths that polished their blades to hide defects in heat treatment, that would otherwise be visible in the black oxide skin formed during heat treatment. Polishing them simply makes them suspect, IMO, and with a few exceptions, I will not buy them.

Stan

[Patrick Chase]

There are no hardened ears turned up at the sides of the chisel.

...

As example, here is an example of chu-tataki that are made more typically (they have ears, the area where the steel is folded up).

Just to be clear, are the "ears" you're referring to the thicker "strakes" in the hardened bit along each side of the chisel? I'd noticed that before but didn't understand why it was done. It makes sense now that I think about it. It may also have the effect of strengthening the weld a bit.

A question for either Brian or Stan: Is the presence of ears a reliable indicator of hand-forging, or is rikizai made with such thickness profiles as well?

[Stanley Covington]

Just to be clear, are the "ears" you're referring to the thicker "strakes" in the hardened bit along each side of the chisel? I'd noticed that before but didn't understand why it was done. It makes sense now that I think about it. It may also have the effect of strengthening the weld a bit.

A question for either Brian or Stan: Is the presence of ears a reliable indicator of hand-forging, or is rikizai made with such thickness profiles as well?

I have not heard them called "ears" before, but the steel wrapped up the sides of the blade is what I think is being talked about.

I have never heard it mentioned as a technique for improving the "weld," but rather as a way to add stiffness to the blade. Wrapping it up the sides increases the second moment of intertia of the blade considerably since the high-carbon steel layer is much much stiffer than the jigane. Without this wrapped steel, the softer jigane can easily bend plastically. This is a real problem for chisels intended to be hit with a hammer, but not for push chisels (aka paring chisels or tsukinomi). Konobu specializes in making carving chisels, and paring chisels, and does not have an extensive set of dies for shaping "wraps." So, while he does occasionally make oirenomi with the wrapped sides, it is not a standard product for him. He has made some shinogi paring chisels for me, but the style and tolerances are not ideal IMO.

Rikizai can indeed be shaped this way, and increasingly more and more blacksmiths (manufacturers) are doing so. Miki is famous for this. There are scandalous rumors in the industry that some famous ones in Niigata are also going that route recently, but I have not confirmed them myself and so will not name names.

[Brian Holcombe]

Just to be clear, are the "ears" you're referring to the thicker "strakes" in the hardened bit along each side of the chisel? I'd noticed that before but didn't understand why it was done. It makes sense now that I think about it. It may also have the effect of strengthening the weld a bit.

A question for either Brian or Stan: Is the presence of ears a reliable indicator of hand-forging, or is rikizai made with such thickness profiles as well?

Exactly, they look like bat ears. As Stan mentions it strengthens the chisel becuase it is a channel section rather than a flat section.