How to hold tail board in place while marking pin board?

[Ron Kanter]

I have been working on my dovetailing skills and making some progress. My greatest weakness seems to be holding the tail board in place for accurate marking of the pins.
I've tried clamping the pin board in a vise level with the bench top and elevated the height of a plane that keeps the tail board level.
My problem seems to be two fold: accurately lining the tail board with the end/edge of the pin board and keeping the tail board from moving when marking the pin board.
I hope this makes sense and you folks have some tips to help me improve the quality of my dovetails.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Ron

[Kevin Smira]

Couple things to try...

1) (and this costs money) buy a skew block plane and cut a shallow rabbet in the inside of the board. This rabbet is the thickness of the other board.

2) put your plane level with the top of the board in the vise, move it back a little and lay your other board on top of it.

I cut tails first and transfer those lines to my pin board. I also do not cut the waste out before I cut the pins. That way, if I screw up the pin board, I can still use my tail board as a template.

[Mark Rainey]

Rob, my resource is Ian Kirby who wrote an excellent book called The Complete Dovetail. I highly recommend it. He recommends positioning the pin piece upright in the vise so the end is projecting about 1/8 of an inch. Hold a block against the outside face of the pin piece so the block forms an aligned projection of the face. ( the block will butt up against the pin piece and project above it - he uses the stock of a 6 inch try square with the blade removed ). Put the end of the tail piece tight to the block. Align edges of pin piece and tail piece with rule. Place your left hand fingers on bench and lower the heel and palm of hand to stabilize tail piece. Mark the pins from the tails with marking knife.

[David Eisenhauer]

After doing step 2 as Kevin suggests, use a square to align one edge of your vertical pin board with the same side edge of your horizontal tail board. The right kind of square helps get the end of the tailboard flush with the face of the pin board at the same time. (For a right hander) Carefully press down on the tail board with your left hand (I tend to use my fingertips spread out), the left hand positioned so that it will not interfere with your scribing work on the pin board, then use your marking knife or pencil to mark the outline of the tails on to the end of the pin board. About 3/4 of that will be easy, with some awkwardness coming up, as you mark the left end of the pin board, when your right wrists get a little torqued. I bet Derik Cohen has some good photos and description of the operation on his website inthewoodshop.com.

[steven c newman]

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May pick up one or two of these style of clamps? Worked for me...

[Dave Parkis]

There is a youtube video by David Barron showing how to make a dovetail alignment jig. I made one and like it a lot. It's dovetailed which puts some people off, but it doesn't matter how it looks as long as it works.

[brian zawatsky]

There is a youtube video by David Barron showing how to make a dovetail alignment jig. I made one and like it a lot. It's dovetailed which puts some people off, but it doesn't matter how it looks as long as it works.

So you have to cut accurate dovetails to build a jig that helps in alignment to cut accurate dovetails? I feel dizzy :p

[Jim Koepke]

Ron, There are many ways to tackle this fish. There are many gems in the advice above and there will likely be more to follow.

My dovetail cutting has mostly been tails first. The alignment of the tail board to mark the pin board has always been tricky. For a while a square made in the shop just for the purpose of holding the two pieces aligned seemed to be a good answer.

Then there was something in a Schwarz post or Youtube video that showed a trick of clamping a straight piece of wood along the baseline of the tails. It amazed me how well this simple trick worked to keep the tail board square to the pin board.

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In fact it worked so well no other support was needed. It could be used with a support if so desired. It is kind of like the rabbet trick (aka 140 trick) without the need to cut a rabbet. It is a removable rabbet.

Here is the rest of the post in which this was used:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750-A-Box-From-Firewood

It is about making a simple box, but it revolves around cutting dovetails.

There are a lot of little parts to being successful at cutting dovetails. Over time many of them become habit and ingrained to the point of becoming non-expresionible parts of making the joint.

Check Derek Cohen's site www.inthewoodshop.com and explore his furniture making section. Many of them where he is using dovetails may click with you and expose one of those little gems that improves your work.

Then look into other write ups of people working on projects using dovetail joints. Some of the tactics may not mesh with your way of working, but often even something that doesn't seem right will give you an idea that will work.

One of my dovetail epiphanies was learning to cut to the line and not through the line. This especially applies to cutting the second half of the joint marked from the first. The line made around the tail (or pin if done pins first) is not in the waste area. If anything the waste area is a little bit away from that line if you use a pencil. Understanding this made my dovetails much better.

Here is a drawer in a bench made after having come to an understanding with this little gem:

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At the time it was too cold in the shop to glue this drawer. Being just before Christmas made doing it in the house out of the question. My plan was to glue it after the holidays or in spring. It has held together for four years now without being glued.

Here is a link to the original post on that:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707-Too-Cold-in-Shop-for-Gluing

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

This may be a little hard to see, but I clamp one of those thick squares (sold as a corner clamp guide) to my bench top next to the vise and use it as a guide to square up the alignment. My dovetail sawing is still being refined, but at least this method resulted in a very square corner.

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[Robert Engel]

A shallow rabbet on the inside of the tail board helps a lot.

Just be sure to do it BEFORE you scribe for the pins. ;-)

[Ron Kanter]

You guys are the best!
Lots of good references, ideas, and thoughts. Jim K gets the award for word count and pictures, but it is a many-way tie for helpful info
At this point I will try a shallow rabbet or clamping a board to the tail scribe line and maybe a clamp or Barron jig for the side alignment. I'll have to try a few dovetails to see if the two references are needed or if I can get the edge alignment by eye when using a scribe line rabbet or board on the scribe line. (Geez, it is harder to write it out than visualize the setup.)
Thanks again. Back to the shop.

[Dan Hulbert]

Don't recall where i saw it, but if you are making a drawer, cut the bottom grooves before the dovetails. Then you can use a piece of the bottom in the groove to align the boards for laying out either pins or tails as you prefer. I tried it a while back and it worked great. Haven't tried the 140 trick yet, but it's next for my next dovetails.

[Derek Cohen]

Holding work is done by the Moxon vise and the rear rest..

https://s19.postimg.org/9sfkqes9v/Moxon_transfer_rest1.jpg

The resr has nin-slip (fine sandpaper) on its base and top, and this holds the rear of the board.

The Moxon vise has a flip up spacer (to hold the board above the chop of the vise, to prevent it being cut up when knifing the lines), and this spacer also has non-slip ...

https://s19.postimg.org/57tebh8kj/Moxon_transfer_rest2.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/7dnp5zc0z/Moxon_transfer_rest3.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/hdn6zmco3/Moxon_transfer_rest5.jpg

Once the lines have been scored, flip the spacer out of the way, and raise the workpiece (if needed) to saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Kanter]

Derek,
Thanks for the flip-up spacer idea.
I had visited you site and planned to adopt the sandpaper keeps the tai end of the taill board from slipping on the rear rest idea. The flip-up spacer with sandpaper I didn't see there, but it seems like a good way to firm the grip on the other end.
I assume you rear rest matches the height of your Moxon. Is that true?

[Derek Cohen]

I assume you rear rest matches the height of your Moxon. Is that true?

Hi Ron. Yes - they are equal heights. This makes it very easy to keep all stable when exerting a little down force.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Parkis]

So you have to cut accurate dovetails to build a jig that helps in alignment to cut accurate dovetails? I feel dizzy :p

Well, the dovetails have to be functional, but not pretty

[David Eisenhauer]

Derek - Am I remembering correctly that you have a photo somewhere of your use of some type of square (shop made?) that aligns the sides and ends of through dovetails on equal sized drawer components? Or was it someone else?

[Prashun Patel]

I rabbet the inside of my tail boards. This allows you to register well enough that you don’t need to clamp at all.

I run them vertically on the table saw as the very first step in the process. That shoulder assists with cutting and paring the tails.

[Sam Stephens]

not sure i understand why this is so complicated? I use a moxon vise like Derek's (except it's not nearly as nice) mainly b/c it's higher up than my bench vise, but the bench vise will do. Alignment between the tail and pin boards is done with my fingers. no square needed. lightly mark the pin board with a fine mechanical pencil. If the tail board is shifting, you're trying too hard. remove the tail board and re-scribe the lines a bit darker using one of the angle things or DT jig or something for the straight line. Not really sure why all the extra effort for rabbets and what not.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek - Am I remembering correctly that you have a photo somewhere of your use of some type of square (shop made?) that aligns the sides and ends of through dovetails on equal sized drawer components? Or was it someone else?

I did post a picture of a square I made to align the ends of boards which are unequal:

In the first setting, it is used to align a half-blind dovetailed drawer front which will have a section saw away (the drawer front is to be bowed)...

https://s19.postimg.org/yva2o7kjn/dovetailing-rest2a_zps6n1ipytw.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/3obfkb4cz/dovetailing-rest3a_zpsr0btu1qq.jpg

In the second example, it is used to align the drawer back, where the drawer is a different width ...

https://s19.postimg.org/wdybgwy2b/dovetailing2a_zpsfwt5xnmk.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/o8g9irp8z/dovetailing4a_zpsyeazer3e.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_67fda0d4.jpg


The easiest and quickest method generally is to simply use a wide, long chisel ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m7d736cb9.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Derek - Am I remembering correctly that you have a photo somewhere of your use of some type of square (shop made?) that aligns the sides and ends of through dovetails on equal sized drawer components? Or was it someone else?

If it looked like this:

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it might have been mine.

The clamp on straight edge mentioned in an earlier post is easier to use. Though if you try as many different ways as you read about, you may find a different way may work better for you than it does for someone else.


not sure i understand why this is so complicated?

Complicated is as complicated does? It isn't that making dovetails is complex, it is kind of like learning to drive. Back in my day one even had to learn how to shift gears and use a clutch without smoking it. Dovetailing like driving has steps to be followed. Also dovetailing is like driving since a lapse of attention can cause a problem.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Great minds think alike, Jim ...... :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Patrick Chase]

Then there was something in a Schwarz post or Youtube video that showed a trick of clamping a straight piece of wood along the baseline of the tails. It amazed me how well this simple trick worked to keep the tail board square to the pin board.

I've used this method in the past and it works very well. I mostly align by eye now and then keep the tail board in place with a holdfast, but either way the key thing to realize is that you need to align the baseline of the tails with the face of the pin board that will go on the inside of the joint. The "140 trick" (rabbetting as Kevin Smirna suggested) accomplishes that. So does Jim's method.

They key to getting good alignment by eye is to clean the waste exactly to the baseline, with crisp corners.

I see some beginners trying to align the tops of the tails of through DTs with the outside face of the pin board (obviously you can't do that at all for blinds), and that seems to invariably lead to trouble, because it only works if the tail height is exactly the same as the pin board's thickness.

[David Eisenhauer]

I have a steel square that is sized and configured just right that I use to line things up. I saw David Barron's alignment gizmo, but have never taken the time to put one together. I learned about the shallow rabbet to help with alignment back in the 1980's, but forgot about the trick sometime several years ago as I fell off into power tool/machinery use for a number of years.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm, through dovetails..I usually do pins first...much easier to mark out the tails

1/2 blind ones...tails first. The reason for the corner clamp is I wanted an extra hand in holding the boards still, long enough to mark out the pins, something quick, easy to use, yet rock solid when holding things in place....without a lot of special set ups, extra woodworking, just a set & forget. The old corner clamps seem to fit the bill...I can clamp to one board, slide the other into place, a few turns of the crank, and it is ready to go.....when done, easy to just set aside on a hook somewhere..KISS.

YMMV....

[James Waldron]

I rabbet the inside of my tail boards. This allows you to register well enough that you don’t need to clamp at all.

I run them vertically on the table saw as the very first step in the process. That shoulder assists with cutting and paring the tails.

Wait ... What? You have a 140 table saw? Is that a Neander table saw? Hmmmmm!

[Patrick Chase]

Wait ... What? You have a 140 table saw? Is that a Neander table saw? Hmmmmm!

Apparently he's joined Brian in the Electric Cult (or maybe it's the Cult's "Electric", I can never keep this stuff straight).

[James Waldron]

Apparently he's joined Brian in the Electric Cult (or maybe it's the Cult's "Electric", I can never keep this stuff straight).

You mean he's grown a tail? How awful!