Knee walls face frame installation and inset drawers

[laura vianello]

Hello, I am back to my knee wall project. I have face frames built around 3 insets drawers. They are perfectly spaced when they are on the project table but...how can I install face frame, drawers, etc keeping the same spacing without messing up? The drawers are inset drawers but the cabinet has no stiles. I am posting some pictures here for reference. The birch plywood is my project (the drawers in the knee wall cab are staggered). The other birch picture shows face frame and drawers front. It would be nice to take all these pieces in one shot and nailed them to the drawer boxes.
The link takes you to a blue cabinet which shows the way I would like to have the finish product (mine will have drawers flash with the face frame and will be white washed BB ply)
https://cdn.remodelista.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2Christen-Starkenburg-Jan-de-Jong-Slow-Wood-kitchen-Netherlands-Anna-de-Leeuw-photo-Remodelista-2-768x1152.jpg
377134377135
I apologize if it might sound a little complicated: 1) yes...I like challenges 2) hard to explain probably.
Thanks for helping LV

[Lee Schierer]

Assuming the drawers in the photo are at the locations you want them (they appear to be mounted on slides), you can apply double sided tape strips to the font of your drawer boxes. First put some weight in each drawer so it is in the "fully loaded" position stack your drawer faces one at a time in the opening, centering them left to right and spacing the first front up off the bottom of the opening with equal height spacers. Press the drawer front firmly against the tape when you have it set in place. Then set the second drawer front on top of the first and then center it and space it off the drawer below. Pres it against the tape. When all drawer fronts are stuck on the drawer boxes. Check all your alignments and spacings. If they are right you can proceed to nailing through the front or carefully remove each one to attach the drawer front from inside.

Mark the backs of the drawers with a number or top, middle, bottom so that if you didn't get everything perfect you can put them back in the opening in the proper order.

[Wayne Lomman]

Laura, fit your face frame to the wall in its final position. You have already made sure the drawer fronts fit so there will be no problem with them fitting again after the frames are installed.

Next, get some small brads. Drive two brads partway into the outer face of each drawer as you are looking at them in your picture. Just put one near each end taking care not to drive them through into the interior of the box. Clip the heads off short so that you have about 2mm sticking out. These are now locating pins.

Put the drawers back into the cabinet. Get all three drawer fronts and stand them up in place. Shim them to even up all the gaps. You can use masking tape to stop them falling in your lap while doing this. When you are happy with how the gaps look, give each drawer a firm thump with your hand to get your locating pins to make a corresponding mark in the back of the drawer front. Take fronts and drawers out and you can permanently fix them at your leisure. I would screw the fronts on rather than nailing. You get another chance to adjust alignment with screws. Some people will use hot glue instead of pins but that does not give you more that one chance. Hope this helps. Cheers

[Jerry Miner]

Laura-- the advice you're getting above is good. Attach the face frame first, making sure it is square (measure the diagonals).

Lee suggests a double-stick tape method.

Wayne suggests a clipped-nail method.

Those are both fine. I use a similar but different method:

I pre-drill the drawer box from the inside for a couple of 1" screws, drive two screws partially through the holes--from the inside--so the tips are sticking out about 1/8". Then set the bottom drawer front on spacers and press against the screw tips to mark the locations, remove the drawer front and pre-drill a pilot hole at the now marked locations, replace and drive the screws. Repeat for next higher drawer. Small adjustments can be made by removing a screw and pivoting the drawer front and driving another screw--- I use four screws total per drawer front, checking the fit before each new screw. Final micro-adjustments are made with the drawer slide mounting screws.

HTH

[laura vianello]

Thanks so much to all of you!!! Everything seems simple enough. I might be a little paranoid to mess up. What I am concerned is that the drawer front might not be perfectly aligned. I cannot change anything at this point because the drawers are moving well (BLUM tandem soft close slide). However if I install the drawer front they might not be flush with the face frame. I might have to lift up the drawer to make the door flush with the face frame. I have also screws like
https://woodworker.com/8-x-1-drwr-front-adj-screws-combo-zp-mssu-145-931.asp
However I cannot figure out how they work. Any idea? Would they help my situation?

[Jerry Miner]

Don't be afraid. It is going to be fine! The Blum Tandem slides have a simple tool-less vertical adjustment ("up only" from the starting position, so err on the low side)-- and if you use the screws you linked to, you'll have even more adjustment room. Drill a couple of 5/16" holes, then use one of the methods above to locate the drawer front. Center two screws in the two holes and drive them in. You can then loosen the screws slightly to adjust the position of the DF. Once you're happy with everything, drive a couple more screws (counter-sunk flat-heads) to "lock in" the position. Done.

If you got the side-adjustable clips for the Tandem slides, then side-to-side adjustments are also easy and tool-less. But they are not absolutely necessary, just convenient.

[Sam Murdoch]

Here is a case (intended :) ) where - now that you have fitted the cabinet into the opening and you know it fits - remove the cabinet from the space
and attach your face frame and drawer fronts. Make all the adjustments - paint now too - then slide the finished cabinet back into the opening.

If I were doing this my face frame would be a bit wider than the opening so that the cabinet would stop at the wall but if I understand you - you are intending all to be flush with the wall surface. If the latter is your intent - you have upped the degree of difficulty. It could take some drywall work with finished plastic or metal corners and/or some caulk and paint to tidy up the install after the finished box is secure in the opening .

Additionally I would have installed a raised landing pad inside the knee wall onto which the cabinet would sit level and plumb. This way I could screw the cabinet to my secure base in the knee wall and not depend on the face frame to keep the cabinet secure.

As Jerry writes above there are some adjustment on Blum Tandems and depending on the locking mechanisms, some adjust in more orientations than others. If you can finish your cabinet outside the knee wall and adjust your drawers accordingly, once set level and plumb back in the finished location further adjustment should be minimal.

[Robert Engel]

If I'm reading this right, the drawers are inset to the frame and the face frame is proud.

I wold make the drawer fronts flush with face frame. Of course you will have to reinstall slides.

Here's an easy technique for attaching drawer fronts:

1) Starting at bottom, place a spacer, then a drawer.
2) Check side to side spacing and screw the drawer front on through predrilled holes that would be for the pulls.
3) Once all the drawers are attached, screw fronts the normal way and remove screws from step 2.
4) Finish drilling holes and install pulls.

Apply face frames and adjust spacing after the drawers are installed.

[laura vianello]

no pulls but cut out handles. a little more complicated. thanks anyway

[laura vianello]

the face frame is not flush with the wall. the face frame is flush with the drawer front. i cannot take out the box from the knee wall. Most of my knee walls do not actually have a box but just studs the slides are mounted on. Challenge over challenge. thanks

[laura vianello]

The drawers are inset and flush with the face frame (the pictures of all pieces on the table would show you how the pieces would be if I put them on the wall). The face frame is not flush with the wall, it is on top of a box cab which is flush with the wall. I hope it clarify. Thanks.

[Robert Engel]

My apologizes, Laura I misinterpreted the photo upon closer inspection I see the drawer slides are flush with box edge.

So its really a matter of alignment in which case check the last part of my previous post.

Personally, I would install the drawer fronts first then match the face frame to them.

Fasten a temporary a vertical and horizontal alignment strip on one side and across the bottom to align the fronts.

Good luck sure hope this helps.

[Sam Murdoch]

the face frame is not flush with the wall. the face frame is flush with the drawer front. i cannot take out the box from the knee wall. Most of my knee walls do not actually have a box but just studs the slides are mounted on. Challenge over challenge. thanks

Hi Laura - At the risk of sounding like a WA you might have now discovered the reasoning for the technique of building the cabinet AND THEN recessing the finished cab into the knee wall. Studs - typically - are not dependable support systems for drawer boxes and doors. They are rugged but not very stable and fight you the whole time you are building. Next time ... :)

The important thing though is that you are doing it! Learn from the process and be satisfied with your best efforts. That's the process of a good life.

Cheers, Sam

[laura vianello]

No WA at all. Let me explain in case you missed the whole story (I have other posts about this never ending oh). Because of how big the drawers are, to build a complete box around them would have been about $100 a knee wall. Plus, the box would have not been a real rectangle because of slanted roof. Not an option because I have 4 to make. I did not build the box but I added plywood side on studs and Blum tandem slides on them. Yes I spent on hardware but I did not want to build a box so big that I could not move. I am alone in this project and I need to do everything in a way vari can control without reaching out for help. Well...yes I reached out to forums though