Help with Italian electric motor

[Brian Holcombe]

I boughy a lathe, used. The motor is Italian made, and made to run on 115v. It runs fine, but some of the external parts are a bit hacked looking. I’d like to update it if at all
possible. I’d like to replace the damaged parts and possibly the switches. Any thoughts or help are appreciated.


https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/img_9259.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/img_9260.jpg

[Bill Dufour]

Looks like a "c" mount or "face" mount style motor. Most likely a metric pulley.
I think the capacitor failed and they could not find one small enough to fit. If the wire just runs through old capacitor terminal box uncut I think that is an okay installation. If they added some more extra capacitance to the existing one I have to wonder why.? I think Italy is 50 hz ac?
Bill D.

[Brian Holcombe]

Moderators:

I started this thread in General because I wanted the larger audience. I feel it is more an electric motor thread than a lathe threads. Appreciate if it could be returned.

Bill,

Thank you kindly, true everything about the machine so far is metric so I assume that is the case for the pulley as well. That makes a lot of sense, I had been wondering about what it was done in such a strange way. Now that you point it out I see the hole made in the capacitor box.

Italy is 50hz AC but this is made for American use, so it's listed as 60hz on the tag and I assume some changes are made to the motor for that purpose. That might explain why they could not find something that would fit, however.

I'm assuming that the forward and reverse switch is also some sort of "aftermarket" job, I can't imagine the factory let this machine out with a handy box and a toggle switch mounted to the motor. Hah. I'm thinking to just replace with a more typical switch usually found on a machine:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#7065k21/=1b7svfc

[Robert Cherry]

You could contact SCM to see if spares are available. They own the minimax line.

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/spare-parts

[Brian Holcombe]

Worth a shot, thanks Robert.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Couple of safety related things to consider:
I'll have to assume the switch/starter you linked will work electrically, but mechanically they are not quite up to modern safety standards. Everything from a bump walking by, to little visitor's hands, can easily cause unintended starts. This style might mitigate somewhat?? (https://www.mcmaster.com/#7657k31/=1b7zlwl)

The 'new' wire exiting the old cap case, looks like the insulation may be compromised (is the area prone to contact and wear?). Perhaps this is already on your fix-it list, but if not, I'd probably restore the cap to its old container - with one less 'external' wire run.

Not familiar with this lathe and assume the photo is from the back, so looks like you have to reach over the headstock to operate the switch...?? While you're at it, I think I'd either relocate the on/off switch to the front side, or augment with an E-stop style switch on the front. ...Something really easy to reach as the prize burl pelts you with shrapnel.

Considered a VFD? My dad went from multi-sheave, fixed speed motor to the Jet VS. I suspect he still turns (at 90yo) just because the VS makes it so easy - - all he has to do is focus on the work, not tool setup.

[John K Jordan]

Looks like a "c" mount or "face" mount style motor. Most likely a metric pulley.
I think the capacitor failed and they could not find one small enough to fit. If the wire just runs through old capacitor terminal box uncut I think that is an okay installation. If they added some more extra capacitance to the existing one I have to wonder why.? I think Italy is 50 hz ac?
Bill D.

It does look like a capacitor fix. I've done that temporarily when I couldn't find a starter cap to fit in the protective cover.

If someone reading has the same lathe perhaps they could post a photo.

I would take things apart enough to trace the wiring and be sure of what was inside. If someone made a connection to the wiring inside the original cover I'd want to make sure it was sufficiently protected from shorting. (The exposed wire looks like it might be under a bit of strain which could possibly wear through the insulation.) If there is another capacitor inside the cover it may be blown. It's possible that the original design used two capacitors each in a protective can but the second can was removed when a replacement would not fit.

I have wired replacement capacitors like this temporarily to get the motor running while I waited for a proper replacement. I could not find a suitably sized capacitor for one of my Jet mini lathes so I wired one on the side until Jet sent me the replacement (at almost 10x the "reasonable" cost for an electrically equivalent capacitor!)

If needed, you could remove it and any motor shop could check out the wiring, the capacitors , and the switch. If everything is ok electrically and you want a neater package you might replace the handy box with another box big enough to hold both the capacitor and the toggle switch.

Just curious, is that red knob an on/off switch or a variable speed control? From the photo it looks like you have to reach over the lathe to access it.

JKJ

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks gents!

Ive gained some insights after taking this apart a bit. The top capacitor is a start capacitor. It’s not in a housing it’s just a plastic capacitor with a plastic end cap.

The other capacitor shows ‘made in Italy’ and seems to be a run capacitor.

Malcolm, the trouble is that this machine needs to be operated from either side, that is why the motor is reversible and why the switch is mounted in such a weird way. You operate from one side to use the duplicator and from the other as normal.

They appear to have rethought this approach on the T124 after realizing that not everyone wants to dedicate twice as much free walking space to their machine. I’m frankly a bit non-plussed by that, I didn’t realize it would need the extra floor space. The duplicator is hefty, however, so I will give them the benefit or a doubt. I’ll need to move it out from the wall a bit.

Also, you need to have clear space to knock out the spur, but rather than move it out toward the floor I’m going to replace the spur with a 4 jaw chuck.

The reverse switch is that cheesy thing in the handy box, the on/off starter switch is a bit more complicated. You turn past on to start like you would a car.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm starting to think that the really top end Lesson 1.5hp DC Variable speed motor with controller that is sitting idle at my father's shop, in a box, would really shine on this machine.

John mentioned this as possibly being a poor solution in the other thread, but after doing some research I can't seem to find a genuine consensus. I also like the idea of a 3 phase motor and VFD along with a reverse switch. However, being that I have the above mentioned motor basically 'laying around' I might try it out and see if I can't make it work. Worst case I can return to this original mess or convert to the 3 phase motor.

I suppose the pulley's may not work out, since I'm quite certain the v-belts are not the same, but that is a problem which can be solved with a bit of machine work or careful purchasing. I also realize I may have to make a conversion face plate if new mounting holes are to be avoided.

[Brian Holcombe]

The Leeson DC motor bolted up. If you guys are interest in this I will detail my efforts as I change this machine.

[Brian Holcombe]

At the risk of talking to myself :D Here's the progress. I've also sleeved the pulley so that it can be used in the original configuration, meaning if I need low speed torque I can simply change the setting to a different set of pulleys.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/fullsizeoutput_392-e1516936832255.jpeg

[Malcolm McLeod]

Still following along (you haven't asked any questions, so just maintaining radio silence).

...and eating crow. I assumed the (old) black cap was the run-cap, and the PO had 'replaced' it by extending the wire to the (new) white cap, then hose clamped it to the nearest convenient spot. I've honestly never seen a OEM motor look quite so cobbled together.

New install looks like it will do the job! For certain, the motor looks better. I'd only recommend that you shorten up the motor lead and secure to the new mounting plate, and maybe route/secure the power feed down the base...? Just to prevent entanglements. (And I've seen enough of your work to realize I'm preaching to the choir.);)

I have played half-heartedly with my dad's very conventional lathe(s) and a couple of engine lathes, but not become vortex-ically infected - - so have never seen a lathe quite like this. Do you pattern turn from the 'wall side' (left of pic), and free-hand from the right? If so, the latter would take some considerable mental adjustment. ...Having the drive at my right hand just seems WRONG! It would take months of reaching for the tail stock with the wrong hand before I learned. Ouch!:mad:

[Brian Holcombe]

That really surprised me, I also assumed that it was an 'on the fly, get 'er running' kind of deal. Scary looking job to say the least.

Absolutely, I'll be shortening up that lead soon and make some wire hold downs that will neaten it up.

I have to admit, I actually had no idea that was the case when I bought this thing. They definitely changed the design on the later models of this lathe, such as the T124 so that only one side of the lathe needed be used. Likely realizing both that it is perplexing to the user, it requires a different motor setup, and of course requires double the footprint in the workshop. Once I figured this out, after arriving to see the lathe in person I was a bit disappointed but decided I could make due.

I can adjust myself to turning on the wrong side of the lathe, that's not a problem since I don't have a muscle memory built yet, but I want to put this up against a wall. I may work out a servo motor and stops so I can run the duplicator from the end of the lathe and only get behind it when I need to change something in the setup. Something akin to my bridgeport mill automatic feeds, which can be setup to stop automatically so that they do not crash into the fixtures.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... I may work out a servo motor and stops ...

Odd coincidence, I just posted in the CNC thread about servos and quadrature encoders. Most servos already have the encoder built in, so if you are willing to get spendy, this is pretty easy automation. (ALWAYS fun to spend someone else's money!!):D

Forgot to add that the encoder then becomes a virtual switch, with nearly infinite number of positions (all w/o a wrench)...but with machine tool background, maybe this is old news too?

[Brian Holcombe]

My background is almost entirely with hand fed tools or basic tools with manually set stops, so I'm interested to check out a bit more about that.

Got 'er up and running. Wow, nice to have a variable speed motor and safe to say that at least with small turnings my fears of not having enough torque were unwarranted. I may need to bump it up for bigger turnings, but I used the duplicator to turn a spindle so far and it stood no chance of slowing the machine down.

I used my festool vac to collect dust at the tool and that seemed to work well, but I can see I'm going to need collection ASAP.

I feel like a kid on Christmas Day. :D

[Brian Holcombe]

Cut a dowel and it was heavily tapered, so I chased down that problem this evening. The taper was .020" and did not seem to have any effect on length, a short dowel was tapered as much as a long dowel...how strange.

I checked the cutter to make sure it was set the same distance from each center....probably 10 times, all was well.

Finally I noticed that when I tighten the tail center the tailstock would rock slightly and put the stock upward just slightly. The result was that it would cut smaller on that end. I fixed this by filing the tail stock seat until it sat perfectly flat and also matched centers exactly. It was not significantly off, but enough that it seemed an error worth removing.

Now I'm down to a difference of .005" from end to end on a short dowel. I'm sure I can knock that tolerance down a bit.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_9281-851397324-1517025817913.jpg

Spun it up to full speed and made a nice smooth pass on this stick of gumi. This will become a chisel handle.

[Malcolm McLeod]

My background is almost entirely with hand fed tools or basic tools with manually set stops, so I'm interested to check out a bit more about that. ...

^^I am intrigued by the idea of automating a simple pattern following lathe...
Perhaps a servo to generate the x-axis motion, with a spring loaded y-axis to keep the 'follower pin'/tool carriage engaged with the pattern, and an air cylinder to push the tool carriage out (negative y-axis)?? Or, go whole hog and put a servo on the y-axis to do coordinated x-y moves? The actuators are probably the easy part here. It is the controller, and most especially, the user interface (GUI) that will make or break you.

My background is 99% process automation using PLCs (I can be a big help if you want to make 9 million pancakes every 2 weeks, 2 million bagels/day, or maybe a pair of car seats every 50 sec.??). I would differentiate motion control in process automation from the motion control that (I think) you are interested in here. In my world, a system is usually built to forever execute only 1 or 2 things based on a simple 'recipe' selection. The recipes (generally) aren't editable in any sort of user friendly way. ...And I suspect you don't want 9 million chisel handles!:cool:

So, that probably bumps you into the CNC world, where small batches or one-offs rule the day. But I'm not much help there - - just really curious!:confused:

Glad you got it working, and I suspect with a good alignment smack here and there, it will serve well. As I said earlier, the variable speed was a huge plus for my dad.
____
Dust-
The serious vortex-ers don't seem to be engaged on this thread, so I'll offer what dust collection tidbits I've gleaned from my shop (and Dad): He only turns small stuff now, and has tried vacuums, dust collectors (3/4hp), and numerous dust 'shoes' mounted to the lathe. The best shoes seem to be sized for 2.5" vacuum lines, but he hates the noise. If he connects the 4" DC to these shoes, it's stalled and does nearly nothing. The DC to 4" shoes seem to do very little as well, as the shoe ends up too far from his work. His current setup (tightly positioned 2.5" shoe & DC) gets maybe 30% of the chips and ~80-90% of the fines :: your POOR CARPET!!:eek:

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on a 5hp DC, so that may change everything - - I hope.

[Brian Holcombe]

The cool thing about this lathe is that the y-axis is already doing everything it needs to. Heavy spring maintains the cutter but the max depth can be adjusted by the user. Basically it can follow a pattern without my manually engaging the cutter.

To remove the endless winding of the x-axis I feel a servo motor and timing belt could replace the pulley and the rest would simply be done by controlling the rate of feed and setting some switches to open the circuit at the end of the run. Presumably they could be mounted on the ends of the pattern fixtures.

Thanks for your insights on this and the dust collection. I have a 3hp Oneida cyclone, so I’ve got to plumb that into this shop. The vacuum does surprisingly well, I assume becuase I can mount it at the cutter where a 4 or 6” hose is really going to be in the way there. Maybe the best way is to have both.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
To remove the endless winding of the x-axis I feel a servo motor and timing belt could replace the pulley and the rest would simply be done by controlling the rate of feed and setting some switches to open the circuit at the end of the run. Presumably they could be mounted on the ends of the pattern fixtures.
...

Probably no need for a servo if that is the case - it allows both speed and position control that you may not need?? And they are considerably more $$'s. The Bridgeport power feeds I've used aren't servos. Look at a small (1/4hp?), reversible gearmotor with output RPM close to your desired x-axis lead-screw speed. (Maybe even a mill axis feed motor?) You could direct couple it, use a belt drive (with multi-step sheave?), or even a VFD. The latter two allow you to 'tune' the speed for the job at hand.

Set up switches (just like a mill) to stop the feed at the end of a given pattern.

You could even use a DPDT switch* to stop feed and energize a solenoid to send air to a 'retract' cylinder, and so pull the cutter back = no burn marks, when you can't get to the lathe in time. (cuz' I know you'll let it run all night unattended - makin' 9M chisel handles.)

* - motor on the NC switch; solenoid on the NO switch.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Malcolm, appreciate the insights. All seems fairly practical and something I think I can do with mainly used parts. I'll hunt for a mill axis feed motor and take a closer look at the one on my Bridgeport.

I will probably build a belt sander for it prior to this, but I want to do this as well. Replacing the three armed handle with a single handle will be nice as well (I'll put a handle on a timing pulley) since it will stop me from whacking my forearm every time I move the cutter when I look closely at the work. I've used plenty of mills and have never seen one of these three armed devices, I can certainly understand why they're not popular.