Installing kitchen cabinet bases on uneven slab

[scott vroom]

I'm building and installing cabinets as part of a complete kitchen tear out and remodel. The slab is out of flat in general and in particular slopes down from the base plate along the entire length of the exterior wall. I'm building 2 base units to span the 142" run against the exterior wall (separated by a dishwasher opening). This should make the job of leveling less complicated. I'm considering 2 methods of leveling: 1) build a ladder frame toe base and scribe it to the floor then place the boxes on top, or 2) install a 1 x 3 level cleat along the wall, land the back of the boxes on it and use leg levelers in the front. I'm leaning toward #2 because it's less work and pretty much guarantees dead level-thru on the 2 independent bases.

Anyone use the cleat and leveler method? How did it work out? Recommendations on leveler type?

[Jim Becker]

I used separate "toe base" for our VERY uneven kitchen so that I could level the base across every dimension before placing the actual boxes. Honestly, that's how I would do it for even a relatively flat and level room, too...I don't prefer having to cut out for toe kicks on cabinet sides. The separate toe base is so much easier to work with to get plumb and then the base cabinet installation goes "really fast".

[Martin Wasner]

I always just add scribe on the bottoms for those situations. Toss the laser out, find the high spot, level out all of the bases high on shims, mark and cut the bottoms, then just drop them in place.

Scribing three faces of a box is a heck of a lot easier than scribing a ladder.

Be careful of appliances that sit on the floor. There's usually not as much adjustment on a dishwasher, fridge or range as you'd want.

[Jim Becker]

Martin, the way I did it was to just level the "ladder" using shims and fasten it down to the floor and the wall and then put an applied 1/2" front piece to it. Only that one piece had to be scribed and it was really easy to do by clamping it to the "ladder", marking it, doing the deed and then applying it permanently. I was able to pre-paint it black, too.

[Jerry Miner]

I typically use the method described by Jim Becker above: Ladder frame shimmed to level and a "skin" that is scribed to the floor. Then the boxes just sit on the ladder frame, and are screwed to the wall.

The most out-of-level kitchen I've done was 3 inches out in a 15-foot run. Yow! (toe kick went from 3" to 6")

[Jim Becker]

The most out-of-level kitchen I've done was 3 inches out in a 15-foot run. Yow! (toe kick went from 3" to 6")

No cooking wearing roller skates in that kitchen! LOL

[Mark Bolton]

We run a detached kick similar to what Jim describes. We build our boxes with no kick (they are all just boxes, flat on the bottom). You assemble the kick in the space and shim it once and once only. Screw it to the wall and glue your shims in as needed. Then you just place the boxes on top of the kick and run like the wind. The kick face is a piece of 1/4" ply that is either stain matched or more often black. You can cut it as best you can to the uneven floor and let the unevenness ride at the top of the kick where it will never be seen. 99% of the time our boxes are installed before the finished tile or hardwood so you just install the 1/4" kick face and then tile/hardwood up to the kick for a dead clean install.

We do run into some issues with the new HGTV mode of installing the flooring first (which makes zero sense) but at that point they just have to do what they have to do.

[Mark Blatter]

We run a detached kick similar to what Jim describes. We build our boxes with no kick (they are all just boxes, flat on the bottom). You assemble the kick in the space and shim it once and once only. Screw it to the wall and glue your shims in as needed. Then you just place the boxes on top of the kick and run like the wind. The kick face is a piece of 1/4" ply that is either stain matched or more often black. You can cut it as best you can to the uneven floor and let the unevenness ride at the top of the kick where it will never be seen. 99% of the time our boxes are installed before the finished tile or hardwood so you just install the 1/4" kick face and then tile/hardwood up to the kick for a dead clean install.

We do run into some issues with the new HGTV mode of installing the flooring first (which makes zero sense) but at that point they just have to do what they have to do.

We always battled a bit with the flooring guys who would go in first. They wanted to go first so they could just lay the floor and leave a slight edge around the wall. We of course wanted to go first so we could do as you said Martin and not have to worry about uneven tile creating gaps. Our contractors normally went with us first as that way there was no damage possible to the flooring.

[Mark Bolton]

We always battled a bit with the flooring guys who would go in first. They wanted to go first so they could just lay the floor and leave a slight edge around the wall. We of course wanted to go first so we could do as you said Martin and not have to worry about uneven tile creating gaps. Our contractors normally went with us first as that way there was no damage possible to the flooring.

Right, and not only when you lay cabs, baseboard, or basically anything, over ceramic, or now this deeply contoured "hand scraped" hardwood, you have horrendous gaps below the cabs and base and every depth variation or grout joint. It looks fine when the customer writes the check but in a couple years those gaps gather dust, grease, and crud, and you have these black, slimy, nasty, impossible to clean, dirt magnets, at every grout joint, dip in the hand scraped floor, and so on. The homeowners only option would be to get down there with a tooth brush and scrub out what they can reach.

I come from the world of flooring second to last, and final coat of paint dead last (with perhaps carpet being totally last but most jobs we are in dont use carpet). The flooring guys have to do their job and lay to the finished face. Tile guys need to rake out their joints against fixed faces (or be clean enough not to get grout in there in the first place) and then fill those joints with color matched sanded caulk. Hardwood can run tight in anything other than a huge room or a house with inadequate humidifaction in winter and dehumidification in summer.

[Wayne Lomman]

Make a separate ladder base, shim it level, scribe a line all around, toss out the shims and plane it to that line. Your base fits perfectly with no gaps to any surface. It also directs all loads evenly to the floor which is especially important with stone tops. This will still be level in 40 years if the house itself doesn't move. Cheers

[Sam Murdoch]

OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

1) I attach a full length 2" to 3" ply cleat to the 1/2" backs of my ganged up cabinets. This cleat is set just below or flush to the top edge of the cabinet.

2) With a laser I establish my wall line to which I attach the wall cleat. This wall cleat is set at the height so that the cabinet cleat will land on this wall cleat set to the proper height off the floor. You might have guessed by now that my cabinets will project away from the wall 1/2" to 3/4" by the thickness of the wall cleat (usually 3/4") so this added dimension needs to be factored into the design.

3) The bottoms of the ganged up cabinets are all flat to each other.

4) I build a 3/4" ply L - with 2, 3'" to 4" legs, glued and screwed to each other. This L is set up side down . One leg of the L is screwed to the underside of the cabinets so that the unfinished face is set back from the front the toe kick depth + the thickness of the finish toe kick.

The face of the L is a predetermined dimension that is set to be short approx. 1/4" to 3/8" off the floor high spot. (The cabinets will NOT BE LEVEL resting on the L.) You can add a short length of L on any open end too.

5) Now with cleat on wall and cabinet and L mounted to the base I lift up my ganged cabinets onto the perfectly level wall cleat. I have pre-located the studs so in one or 2 spots I drive in a screw to hold the cabinets to the studs (temporarily- these are sacrificial screws as they will likely get bent a bit). The gang of cabinets, at this point, is leaning slightly forward - resting on the bottom L.

6) I raise the cabinets to closer to horizontal and start driving in shim shingles. I drive shim shingles in all along the front under my L until the cabinets are level and plumb in all orientations AND now should be tight to the wall and securely resting on the wall cleat. A NOTE - I use PL adhesive on top and bottom of the shims so that once cured the shims are located to stay between the cabinet L and the floor.

7) Once the cabinetry is all level, I finish attaching with screws through the cabinet backs/cleat to the wall studs.

8) Cut off the long shims on the floor. Attach the finish toe base. The finish toe base sits hard against the floor covering the gap of the L and adding additional full length bearing for the cabinetry.

Takes about as long to do the above procedure as it took me to write this description :).
I gave up on ladder base along time ago. This works so well.

[Edwin Santos]

OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

1) I attach a full length 2" to 3" ply cleat to the 1/2" backs of my ganged up cabinets. This cleat is set just below or flush to the top edge of the cabinet.

2) With a laser I establish my wall line to which I attach the wall cleat. This wall cleat is set at the height so that the cabinet cleat will land on this wall cleat set to the proper height off the floor. You might have guessed by now that my cabinets will project away from the wall 1/2" to 3/4" by the thickness of the wall cleat (usually 3/4") so this added dimension needs to be factored into the design.

3) The bottoms of the ganged up cabinets are all flat to each other.

4) I build a 3/4" ply L - with 2, 3'" to 4" legs, glued and screwed to each other. This L is set up side down . One leg of the L is screwed to the underside of the cabinets so that the unfinished face is set back from the front the toe kick depth + the thickness of the finish toe kick.

The face of the L is a predetermined dimension that is set to be short approx. 1/4" to 3/8" off the floor high spot. (The cabinets will NOT BE LEVEL resting on the L.) You can add a short length of L on any open end too.

5) Now with cleat on wall and cabinet and L mounted to the base I lift up my ganged cabinets onto the perfectly level wall cleat. I have pre-located the studs so in one or 2 spots I drive in a screw to hold the cabinets to the studs (temporarily- these are sacrificial screws as they will likely get bent a bit). The gang of cabinets, at this point, is leaning slightly forward - resting on the bottom L.

6) I raise the cabinets to closer to horizontal and start driving in shim shingles. I drive shim shingles in all along the front under my L until the cabinets are level and plumb in all orientations AND now should be tight to the wall and securely resting on the wall cleat. A NOTE - I use PL adhesive on top and bottom of the shims so that once cured the shims are located to stay between the cabinet L and the floor.

7) Once the cabinetry is all level, I finish attaching with screws through the cabinet backs/cleat to the wall studs.

8) Cut off the long shims on the floor. Attach the finish toe base. The finish toe base sits hard against the floor covering the gap of the L and adding additional full length bearing for the cabinetry.

Takes about as long to do the above procedure as it took me to write this description :).
I gave up on ladder base along time ago. This works so well.

Sam, I was wondering if anyone would describe this method.

IKEA's kitchen cabinet system utilizes a variation on the same system. It relies on a metal hanging rail that looks a little like a unistrut, and mating metal hangers that mount to the back of the cabinet sides. Then adjustable legs are attached to the bottom of the boxes and the toe kick attaches to the legs with clips. If there's a gap it's at the top of the toe kick under the box where nobody can see it. Zero scribing. Blum sells most of these parts except for the hanging rail, which could be substituted with a french cleat.
A lot of people mock IKEA, but their cabinet installation system is brilliant.
A pro not familiar with it might be well served to stop in to one of their stores and check it out if you're interested in simplifying the installation process and reducing man hours.

[Cary Falk]

I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

[Sam Murdoch]

Sam, I was wondering if anyone would describe this method.

IKEA's kitchen cabinet system utilizes a variation on the same system. It relies on a metal hanging rail that looks a little like a unistrut, and mating metal hangers that mount to the back of the cabinet sides. Then adjustable legs are attached to the bottom of the boxes and the toe kick attaches to the legs with clips. If there's a gap it's at the top of the toe kick under the box where nobody can see it. Zero scribing. Blum sells most of these parts except for the hanging rail, which could be substituted with a french cleat.
A lot of people mock IKEA, but their cabinet installation system is brilliant.
A pro not familiar with it might be well served to stop in to one of their stores and check it out if you're interested in simplifying the installation process and reducing man hours.


I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.


Edwin - the one down side (that I can think of/experienced - upper cabinets in particular) to using those metal mating rails is attaching them to a wall that is not flat in the length of the cabinet run. Easier to shim out a plywood cleat - more of a visual to hold your long level against and to keep flat as you shim. On a new flat wall the low profile is excellent. My technique with the L at the bottom of the cabinet could create issues though with distorting the metal rail, as I start the install with the bank of cabinets sloping forward. The metal rails don't allow that kid of flexibility.

Cary - You can add finished end panels that go right to the floor or create a recess toe at the ends too. In the latter case apply a finished toe board. I don't hesitate to add finished panels and/or solid posts as corners AFTER the install of the basic cabinets regardless of how they are supported. This is pretty typical when installing an island cabinet which is more typically set on a separate base (my preference) or on leveler feet.

[Edwin Santos]

Edwin - the one down side (that I can think of/experienced - upper cabinets in particular) to using those metal mating rails is attaching them to a wall that is not flat in the length of the cabinet run. Easier to shim out a plywood cleat - more of a visual to hold your long level against and to keep flat as you shim. On a new flat wall the low profile is excellent. My technique with the L at the bottom of the cabinet could create issues though with distorting the metal rail, as I start the install with the bank of cabinets sloping forward. The metal rails don't allow that kid of flexibility.


Hi Sam,
You're right, an uneven wall presents it's own problem for the metal rail, which is very rigid. What they recommend you do is attach the rail to the wall at only the ends, thus revealing the wall gaps along the length, and then proceed with shims at every point where you're driving screws. The rail is perforated with holes like unistrut, so there will always be a hole at a stud location.

I actually like your L at the bottom of the cabinet a little better than their system because I've never cared for the snap on clips for attaching the kick to the legs. However, the rail is very strong, and you can hang the bases off it with nothing (they give you a spacer to tack to the bottom of the back to match the rail space). The weight of the box is not nearly enough to bend or deform the rail until you level the legs so they're bearing on the floor.
Again, french cleats will perform the same function as the rail for the most part, maybe not as fast or flexible.

There are other manufacturers that sell systems like this and they're not as expensive as one might think. Here's one:
https://www.wwhardware.com/pmi-steel-cabinet-hanging-rail-pmi87 (https://www.wwhardware.com/pmi-steel-cabinet-hanging-rail-pmi875)

[Mark Bolton]

OK - as you ask - here is my system. I find this method to be easy and accurate.

If Im reading this right its a glorified french cleat with a fastened "leg" of sorts out at the front of the cab for support and attaching a kick. The issue with this is if the hanging wall has a bow or a bulge that exact bow/bulge is going to be reflected in the face of the cabs unless you run your laser or a string line down the wall and shim your hanging cleat out from the wall to keep it dead straight. This doesnt work with most cleat systems because the cleat relies on the cab to register against the wall face and if your shimming a bulge the ends of the run will be loose or hanging low, and in a bow the center will hang low or loose. All of this is fungible with FF cabs which have a FF overhang leaving a 1/4" gap between boxes behind the frame but for frameless, euro style cabs bows and bulges in the wall are a nightmare.

Brad's post of the leg levelers is the way most commercial shops are going but they can get spendy.

[Mark Bolton]

I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.

A lot of shops handle this is different ways. Some simply have an applied finished end that ends at the kick, some close the kick and have a finished end that drops to the floor. We make our boxes for FF cabs with flush interiors so there is an inch of FF overhang on a finished end and we make a full height finished end with a tall bottom rail and notch. This keeps the panels fairly consistent and doesnt close the kick making a dirt trap in the corner.

[Sam Murdoch]

If Im reading this right its a glorified french cleat with a fastened "leg" of sorts out at the front of the cab for support and attaching a kick. The issue with this is if the hanging wall has a bow or a bulge that exact bow/bulge is going to be reflected in the face of the cabs unless you run your laser or a string line down the wall and shim your hanging cleat out from the wall to keep it dead straight. This doesnt work with most cleat systems because the cleat relies on the cab to register against the wall face and if your shimming a bulge the ends of the run will be loose or hanging low, and in a bow the center will hang low or loose. All of this is fungible with FF cabs which have a FF overhang leaving a 1/4" gap between boxes behind the frame but for frameless, euro style cabs bows and bulges in the wall are a nightmare.

Brad's post of the leg levelers is the way most commercial shops are going but they can get spendy.

I'm not sure I understand the highlighted ^. The wall cleat does need to be flat and level. Achieving FLAT can be more difficult than level but with patience it is done. A wall that is way out of flat causes problems throughout the install, including countertop and backsplashes. Sometimes best to remove the existing wall cover (can be a real mess and aggravation with old plaster) and recover the studs with furred out strapping or plywood so that the cabinets are attached to flat walls. In more modest cases however, if achieving flat requires some shimming or cutting into the wall (I've done that too to eliminate bumping the cabs out too far) it's all doable.

In the case of setting the wall cleat in past the wall surface at the bulges, the cabinet cleat could be thinner stock than the wall cleat or actually removed in sections as needed. With ganged up cabinets it's OK if the cabinet cleat is not full length but set up as 2' or 3' sections as need to hang the unit securely while spanning over the wall bulges.

[Jim Becker]

I don't want to hijack this thread but when sing the "ladder" method what happens to an exposed end of a base cabinet(like at a door or an open kitchen). Does it look like a toekick also? I have always built the whole thing and shimmed the cabinet to floor height.
It's your choice on how to handle it. If you want the toe kick to be exposed on the end, just keep the end of the cabinet box on that end the same rectangle as others. If you want to have a more "finished" look with the end cabinet reaching the floor, you can either use an applied end-cap or construct that end box with an extended end panel that you can scribe to the floor. I'm sure there are more choices, too.

[scott vroom]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

[Jim Becker]

Scott, that's yet another viable way to deal with this. Many of the adjustable levelers have provisions for attaching a (removable) toe kick panel. Ikea's setup is done this way and it's an advantage if you potentially will need access to the space under the cabinets at some point or want to be creative and put in hidden "toe kick storage".

[Mark Bolton]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

For us in practice over the years the issue is that you often times walk into a job where the the floor inst level, the walls arent plumb, and the corners arent square. This (IMHO) is where face frame cabs shine in that you have some fudge (a ton if you run flush interiors) from cab to cab so you can infact allow the face of your cabs to undulate slightly with the wall face and corners being out of square. You cant however have your cabs rolling up and down in elevation on an uneven floor. This is where the ladder frame or leg levelers shine.

The drawback with the cleat option for me is that you now have extensive shimming at the cleat IF you have one of three factors... 1 is if you have an undulating/non-straight wall... 2 if you have an out of square corner.. 3 If your setting frameless euro boxes and an additional #4 would be a nightmare combination of all of them if your running euro boxes on an undulating wall with out of square corners.

The ladder frame or leg levelers allow you to rule out all of the factors above. You level the frame to the floor, you assemble your boxes. You can either let them float slightly with an undulating wall OR you can shim and lock them in a dead straight run and let the slop come out at the backsplash (as long as your not running post form or integrated backsplash). Either way, if your cabs roll a slight amount in plan view the counter overhang is going to take care of that, if they are dead straight and you have some variation at the backsplash even granite will allow for a bit of fudge there. If you have a crazy amount of bow/bulge/out of square at the wall you'd better be using an applied splash period.

All of these options of course are dependent on each individual set of site conditions. Me personally I would never reference my cabs off the wall face in any way. Walls are not level, they are not straight, and they are not square. I choose to deal with one variable and thats the floor. I level my kick, and the counter deals with all the other variables. The kick could be traded for leg levelers if the budget allows. Ive never had an issue leveling a detached kick so Ive never seen the need.

[Glen Gunderson]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

Yeah, that's basically how Ikea cabinets are installed, though they use a metal rail at the top for the wall connection. It's about as easy as it gets.

I've done ladder frames before too, but levelers are much quicker.

[scott vroom]

The drawback with the cleat option for me is that you now have extensive shimming at the cleat IF you have one of three factors... 1 is if you have an undulating/non-straight wall... 2 if you have an out of square corner.. 3 If your setting frameless euro boxes and an additional #4 would be a nightmare combination of all of them if your running euro boxes on an undulating wall with out of square corners.

The ladder frame or leg levelers allow you to rule out all of the factors above. You level the frame to the floor, you assemble your boxes. You can either let them float slightly with an undulating wall OR you can shim and lock them in a dead straight run and let the slop come out at the backsplash (as long as your not running post form or integrated backsplash). Either way, if your cabs roll a slight amount in plan view the counter overhang is going to take care of that, if they are dead straight and you have some variation at the backsplash even granite will allow for a bit of fudge there. If you have a crazy amount of bow/bulge/out of square at the wall you'd better be using an applied splash period.

All of these options of course are dependent on each individual set of site conditions. Me personally I would never reference my cabs off the wall face in any way. Walls are not level, they are not straight, and they are not square. I choose to deal with one variable and thats the floor. I level my kick, and the counter deals with all the other variables. The kick could be traded for leg levelers if the budget allows. Ive never had an issue leveling a detached kick so Ive never seen the need.


A 2x4 cleat face bolted to the studs would provide plenty of ledge width to mitigate curvy walls and out-of-square corners.

[jack duren]

Find your highest point with your level and start a line on the wall from there..Simple to install. Personally I can't stand separate bases...

[Mark Bolton]

A 2x4 cleat face bolted to the studs would provide plenty of ledge width to mitigate curvy walls and out-of-square corners.

You mean a 2x4 behind the cabs inbetween the cabs and the wall?

[Martin Wasner]

Find your highest point with your level and start a line on the wall from there..Simple to install. Personally I can't stand separate bases...

Me neither. Applying a face on-site seems horrific as well, and dealing with outside corners in likely thin material that is finished is unpleasant.

[Sam Murdoch]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.


I prefer to work standing up so NO, IMHO, much easier to attach the wall cleat at a 30" + height than lower. Easier too set a laser level to that height and everything else associated too. Except for setting islands, building sub bases has always been a nuisance to me so my current method has evolved over the years.

A few more advantages to list and then I'll stop, at the risk of becoming argumentative, which is absolutely not my intent. Just trying to respond fully to Scott's opening question.

• I always have plywood rips on hand. My system in an 8 foot run requires at most, 4 rips of 3" +/- wide scrap 3/4" or 1/2" plywood. Some variation on the theme for longer runs - I would use 6' to 8' lengths of plywood in a series. On the other hand, surprising how much lumber it can take to build a long run of a sub base.

• I'd rather work the 2 dimensions on the wall to attach by cleat than spend time on my hands and knees trying to set a 20" x 96" base. Lots of remodeling here of old ocean side cottages and some of those floors are out 2" or more in 8' and often run off in multiple directions. By contrast, the worst walls I have encountered have been out maybe an 1' in a 12' run (a recent project) with hollows and bumps in between. Even this scenario is easy to correct with a taut string and some shims or pads. You don't need a substantial wall cleat just enough to catch your cabinet clean to locate the cabinets before you screw through the backs into the studs. As I wrote above, the wall cleat does not need to be continuous as long as there is enough well spaced ledger to catch the cabinet cleat.

• Out of square corners can be an issue for certain if 2 runs of cabinets are making a corner. The ends of two intersecting runs of cabinets can require some fillers or other magic that makes creating a square wall cleat hanging system a challenge. Those scenarios create issues (more than just setting the cabinets) regardless of the support system.

Every situation requires an assessment of what system is best and all the systems have merit. For me, the cleat and L works very well, requires few additional materials, makes work at a comfortable height and is frequently the fastest and most accurate method. Your milage may vary. :)

[Wayne Lomman]

Mark Bolton has the right idea here. His method cuts out the extra variables.

More importantly, this method works to the strength of timber ie timber is strong in compression and weaker in tension. You build a whole house on firm foundations, and a kitchen needs to be done the same. Any method that relies on suspending the base cabinets is asking for settling to happen over time.

There is also a misconception (back in all this somewhere) that frameless cabinets are somehow harder to align on wobbly walls than face frame cabinets. This is incorrect - the style of construction makes no difference. The difference is in the skill of the cabinetmaker. Good tradies make it work either way.

Finally, since when is Ikea an authority worth quoting to support an argument on these pages?.... Cheers

[jack duren]

Mark Bolton has the right idea here. His method cuts out the extra variables.

More importantly, this method works to the strength of timber ie timber is strong in compression and weaker in tension. You build a whole house on firm foundations, and a kitchen needs to be done the same. Any method that relies on suspending the base cabinets is asking for settling to happen over time.

There is also a misconception (back in all this somewhere) that frameless cabinets are somehow harder to align on wobbly walls than face frame cabinets. This is incorrect - the style of construction makes no difference. The difference is in the skill of the cabinetmaker. Good tradies make it work either way.

Finally, since when is Ikea an authority worth quoting to support an argument on these pages?.... Cheers

I know the difference..Separate toe is harder to set...Hard on my knees too...I was payed very well as an installer but at 52 those days are over,,,

[mreza Salav]

Wouldn't it be easier to attach a level cleat to the wall at a height from the floor equal to the kick height? Drop the box on it, put a couple of levelers in the front and done. Sam's method is similar but a bit more complicated. One big advantage of this method is that all of the cabinets start off aligned and level at the wall. I've never used this method but was reading a discussion about it on WoodWeb.

That's how I hung all my cabinets. That 3" plywood on the wall is attached across the length of the wall and level. The boxes backs' sit on it and get screwed to the wall at the top (with appropriate shim at the tops if needed) and bottom. Fronts get adjustable levers. The toe kick is 3/4" removable that clips into levers.

[scott vroom]

You mean a 2x4 behind the cabs inbetween the cabs and the wall?


No. The cleat acts as a ledge and the flat bottom box sits on top. Below is a crude rendering.

[Mark Bolton]

No. The cleat acts as a ledge and the flat bottom box sits on top. Below is a crude rendering.

That surely could work if you found it easier to cleat and then leveler on front and allowing any bow/bulge in the wall to come out at the rear. Of course so many of these scenarios are completely site dependent. That said, I have seen granite guys have to score and chisel out sheetrock in bow/bulge/out of square situations numerous times. I would agree with the one post that if you have a horror show of a situation it would be best to simply make it right before the cabs go in but thats of course not always possible with budgets and so on.

Interesting option with rear cleat and leveler out front. You do read a lot on commercial forums about shops moving completely to levelers and having issues and I would agree that I dont like the kick clips that often accompany levelers. It all gets the wheels turning and reminds me how happy it makes me to rarely do kitchen cabs.

[Wayne Lomman]

Mark, apologies, but those installers were not top notch. I have never, ever had to leave a job where everything was not perfectly aligned no matter whether the job had 4 corners in a small space or was a 12 metre straight line laboratory bench and everything in between. I have fitted on floors that dropped 150mm in 6 metres and it still works. If it won't line up, it is either machined wrong or installed out of level, both of which are poor workmanship.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to frame-less cabinets. It just needs to be clear that the differences in cabinet construction are cultural, not a question of technical superiority. Cheers