Fixing a glue up gap?

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm making couple of end tables out of white oak. I didn't have any 8/4 in stock for legs so I tried gluing up some 4/4 to make 8/4. I have done this successfully in the past using red oak,...

Two of my eight legs have a slight gap between the boards as per the picture below which shows the worst case. Maybe not enough pressure (I trued gluing up all of the leg blanks at once rather than one at a time), maybe I didn't plane the original boards flat enough.

I'm not worried about the cause, but rather if there is any fix for the remaining gap, a fix that is still going to accept Transtint dye well.

376850

My suspicion is I need to make new legs, or go to the lumber yard and buy some 8/4. The nearest hardwood store is about a 1.5 hour drive, which is why I tried to fabricate these legs blanks.

[mreza Salav]

If you think it is structurally fine, one option is to cut a shallow dado at whatever thickness you want ( say even the 1/8" kerf of a saw blade) over it and then glue a 1/8" matching piece to hide the gap at the joint
behind it.

[Philipp Jaindl]

Wood Putty/Filler is the classical fix for gaps, either bought or you can make it yourself with in your case Oak dust and glue but there are problably a lot of guides on how to make filler.
In terms of accepting Dye it should work but always do a sample and test piece.

[john bateman]

If you have some extra lumber and your capable of ripping thin pieces, you could just saw a 1/8" or thinner piece the same width as your leg, then glue it right over the side with the flaw.

[Mel Fulks]

That's pretty common. My inclination would be to just put it in the corner that will show the least. The only way I know of to asure it won't happen is to use dados to "relieve" the center third of one glue surface slightly. Or even both surfaces. I've done that with things like large bar rails that had to be made of glued up 6/4 or 8/4 . Some years from now all the legs are apt to show some opening.

[Jim Becker]

I use tiny slivers of the same wood to fill gaps like that. I never us putty or a glue/dust combination...it will never look the same through finishing, especially when dye or stain is involved. It's meticulous work to fill this way, but the fix completely disappears. The same technique works for hand-cut dovetails, too, with the slivers going in on an angle.

[Mark Bolton]

shoot it full of PVA with a tip that forces glue down into the gap (simple plastic squeeze bottle for me) and then turn off the DC on your RO and sand for a few seconds. The sawdust will plow the gap full and the heat from the sander will set it, and you can forget it, just like the infomercials. If you hand sand, pile it full of pva, grab a pile of fines/flour off the bench or floor, pack it full, and block sand it out. Youll never see it.

[mreza Salav]

I have tried all methods of wood filler, mix of saw dust with glue as filler, etc but all will show like a sore thumb when stained (maybe less with oak).

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'm pretty sure anything that involves glue won't dye well. If I get any glue outside of the 'patch', I'm afraid it will look worse than just ignoring the problem.

Jim's slivers sound like a good idea, but these gaps are something like .001 wide, they are exaggerated in the photo. I don't think I could push any slivers down the 'gaps'.

I can cut an 1/8" veneer on the new MM16 bandsaw, possibly even 1/16". I haven't used the bandsaw much yet but in some test cuts I was amazed at how well it resawed.

Another thought I had is to put a very shallow saw kerf at the joint line, and call it a design element :). The tables are small mission sized end tables , ~18" * 11" *20"T. I could put a very shallow kerf on the inside middle of each leg.

I think I'll try my hand at cutting some veneer tomorrow and see how that works.

FWIW, this is my first 'serious' project in my recently built retirement shop. There's a thread on the build in the shop forum. I've been building mostly cabinetry for the shop.

Thanks again.

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm curious if anyone has actually used the glue/sawdust method, or a filler, and dyed/stained mid-dark, and it still looked good.

I guess If one were to use a filler on my gap, then sand so only the filler is left in the thin little slot, it may work just fine. There would just be a little filler to stain, < a thickness of paper, and even if it didn't stain well it might look better than a slot hole.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, I make the slivers with...a sharp knife or chisel...

The challenge you'll have using the glue method is that oak has a lot of pores and it's inevitable that you'll get glue into them unless you really sand things back a lot. And it WILL affect your finishing.

[Patrick Walsh]

Chances are glue and dust will end up a darker color..

Everytime I resort to glue and dust I regret it.

[Dave Cav]

I can cut an 1/8" veneer on the new MM16 bandsaw, possibly even 1/16". I haven't used the bandsaw much yet but in some test cuts I was amazed at how well it resawed.
I think I'll try my hand at cutting some veneer tomorrow and see how that works.
Thanks again.

That should work. You could also joint the offending edge, joint a matching piece of relatively thick stock, face glue the two together, then run the piece through the planer until the glued-on piece is acceptably thin, or bandsaw it down and then sand.

[marty fretheim]

If they are wide enough you could fire up that new bandsaw and rip down the glue line. Re flatten, and glue them up again. Hopefully with better results. If you screw up as often as I do you'll get pretty crafty at fixing things.

[Harold Balzonia]

I'm not sure of your design tastes but I have run a burn line down that kind of seam and made it part of the design element.

[Mike Monroe]

I vote for the home veneer option. I did that with some vertical grain Doug fir bedposts and the wood grain looks uniform from any angle.

[Clint Baxter]

Rout a v-groove down the the center of the gap and then glue in a matching v-shaped piece. Leave it proud when you glue it in and then joint the face flush after the glue has dried. I would take a little off the tip of the v-shaped piece that would be glued in, just to make sure it seats into the v-groove tightly. I'd want to cut the groove using a router table so it would be nice and straight but it could be done with an edge guide as long as one was careful.

Clint

[keith wootton]

i vote for thin veneer. i am seeing some pretty noticeable chip out. it is going to show more after dye and finish are applied.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'm curious if anyone has actually used the glue/sawdust method, or a filler, and dyed/stained mid-dark, and it still looked good.

I guess If one were to use a filler on my gap, then sand so only the filler is left in the thin little slot, it may work just fine. There would just be a little filler to stain, < a thickness of paper, and even if it didn't stain well it might look better than a slot hole.

Don't listen to anyone who tells you glue mixed with sawdust is a good solution; it never is unless you accept a second-rate or even a third-rate solution. In that case, you might as well just leave the gap there! If people asked, say "Look, it is part of a design!" -- just kidding.

Some "social media" woodworkers have shared this solution in their videos but they never show how the fix would like after stain is applied. Consider this a snake-oil salesman pitch.

The best solution is offered by john bateman, followed by Jim Becker's. If done skillfully, the gaps may be invisible to the untrained eye.

Another solution is to change the design of the legs by adding an inlay strip to cover the gap, but you would have to do the same on every leg.

Next time, consider using hide glue or liquid hide glue to glue up your legs...it is irreversible.

Oh, fillers work only for doors, kitchen cabinets, etc., not for fine furniture pieces. The contrasts will pop up in time.

Simon

[Pat Barry]

I suggest finishing it as is (dye / stain ), to get the proper color, and after that you could backfill the gaps that bother you with clear epoxy. I've never tried this but it should work nicely. Just carefully tape alongside the gap on both sides, mix up and spread the epoxy with a squeegee, and peel off the tape before the epoxy sets up too much.

[mreza Salav]

The best solution is offered by john bateman, followed by Jim Becker's. If done skillfully, the gaps may be invisible to the untrained eye.


I beg to differ and I think, although adding a veneer over is a good solution, the solution I proposed (and similar solution proposed by Clint further down) are the best in hiding it. The solution of filling in the same species inlay of 1/8" will be visible only from one side of the leg (instead of one glue line you have two very close glue lines).

[Cary Falk]

Glue of fillers don't accept dye very well. A matching piece of wood in the gap is the best solution. When I am dying something I dye the glue so I won't see a glue line. I don't have to use filler because the glue squeeze out fills a less than perfect joint. It works great for picture frames. You could try mixing some dye into the glue and force it into the gap. You could try it on a scrap piece first. Gkue and sawdust never worked for me either. It always turned out too dark.

[Simon MacGowen]

I beg to differ and I think, although adding a veneer over is a good solution, the solution I proposed (and similar solution proposed by Clint further down) are the best in hiding it. The solution of filling in the same species inlay of 1/8" will be visible only from one side of the leg (instead of one glue line you have two very close glue lines).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BuyKRqe1qs is one of the videos I just found on Google showing the result of a veneer fix that I recommend. The veneer he used was way too thick for my taste.

If one starts with a thinner veneer and/or puts a very subtle chamfer on all edges on all legs (assuming such design change is acceptable), your proposed fix won't be better than this veneer approach.

If perfection is required for a seamless and invisible leg joint, use the method that Tage Frid (or is it Allen Peters? Can't exactly remember the fellow who demoed in the VHS). After Googling, I found this video that is close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wfSBLyMSEQ

I do not recommend Frid's (?) method unless you absolutely require such result, because it is pretty time consuming. I no longer use it anymore when making table legs or blanks, and go with the THIN veneer method. As my old mentor once said, it is easier to hide your blunder on the edge than anywhere else.

Simon

[Bill Carey]

Chances are glue and dust will end up a darker color..

Everytime I resort to glue and dust I regret it.

I agree - it always comes out darker. Even tried sanding the dust in a small crack during the staining - no glue involved - and it still came out pretty dark. But worked better than dust and glue.

[Jim Tobias]

Mark,
"Make lemonade out of lemons" !
That is not a flaw......it's an opportunity to decorate the legs(and top if you like). Route out a 1/16" wide channel down the center of the gap and put in a contrasting piece of stringing. A dark brown (Walnut or other brown wood of choice).

Jim

[Steve Demuth]

Don't listen to anyone who tells you glue mixed with sawdust is a good solution; it never is unless you accept a second-rate or even a third-rate solution.
Simon

I mostly agree. The one exception is when one or both of the elements framing the gap is end grain. I have patched end grain gaps more than once with sawdust plus PVA and you can't tell even after multiple humidity cycles over several years without a knowing what to look for and having a magnifier to look with. Otherwise you need wood, not dust, to fill the gap. Slivers are best for gaps like the OP's, although if it's really less than .01" it'll be a challenge to fit one.

[Jim Becker]

If one is only going to clear coat, it may be possible to do the glue and dust thing...but as soon as any color needs to be applied, or any oil based preparation that needs to be absorbed, the glue very likely will "give it away".

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I'm making couple of end tables out of white oak. I didn't have any 8/4 in stock for legs so I tried gluing up some 4/4 to make 8/4. I have done this successfully in the past using red oak,...

Two of my eight legs have a slight gap between the boards as per the picture below which shows the worst case. Maybe not enough pressure (I trued gluing up all of the leg blanks at once rather than one at a time), maybe I didn't plane the original boards flat enough.

I'm not worried about the cause, but rather if there is any fix for the remaining gap, a fix that is still going to accept Transtint dye well.

376850

My suspicion is I need to make new legs, or go to the lumber yard and buy some 8/4. The nearest hardwood store is about a 1.5 hour drive, which is why I tried to fabricate these legs blanks.

Can you take off the parts? If yes, I would go to use a band saw to cut exactly over the crack and re-glue them. It works for wood cracks (personally as I do not have a band saw, so I have used a jig saw a couple of times to fix unexpected wood cracks).

[Mark Bolton]

Consider this a snake-oil salesman pitch

While I wouldnt ever use the method on a bespoke, boutique, or heirloom, piece (which this may well be), we have used that method literally tens of thousands of times on hairline cracks/gaps like the one in the photo. We would never rely on the method for filling nail holes or large gaps (commercial wood dough doesnt even stain well in those applications) but if the piece is one that doesnt speak to wood filler your construction and joiner methods would eliminate them in the first place. With a crack less than the thickness of a sheet of paper, running with the grain, chances are good you, nor anyone else, would ever know it was there if you werent the one that repaired it.

If it IS in fact a bespoke, boutique, or heirloom, piece... I would think the proper fix would be to re-make the part and have no gap to fill second time around.

To the OP, simply nail or screw together a couple scrap boards leaving a similar gap to the one you have in your actual part, glue it, fill it, sand it, and do a quick finish test and see if its acceptable to you. While I cant speak to dye, I can reiterate what I said above, thousands of fixes like that and you would never even know it was there (of course best not to have it in the first place).

Good luck. Post back your results for sure.

[Matt Day]

Mark,
"Make lemonade out of lemons" !
That is not a flaw......it's an opportunity to decorate the legs(and top if you like). Route out a 1/16" wide channel down the center of the gap and put in a contrasting piece of stringing. A dark brown (Walnut or other brown wood of choice).

Jim

+1

—————

[Nick Decker]

...Next time, consider using hide glue or liquid hide glue to glue up your legs...it is irreversible.

Simon

Umm, I think you got that wrong.

[mark mcfarlane]

After sanding on the edge/belt sander, the gap is fairly invisible. I think I'll leave it alone and put it on the inside of one of the legs. 8 legs and only this one with any remaining visible gap.

Or maybe I'll finish the legs before assembly and see what they look like. I'm using loose tenons to attach the legs to the aprons and lower shelf, so I could pre-finish the legs.

One nice thing about aging eyes, If I put this leg 4 feet away (on the floor) I can't see any defect :).

376927

And one note: This is my first time to work with white oak. I am surprised how dense this stuff is, and how slow to sand. My edge sander will grind through pine but takes a really long time to cut this white oak.

[Simon MacGowen]

Umm, I think you got that wrong.

Haha. You are right. Old brain isn't as sharp with words anymore.

"Reversible" is the correct word.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

After sanding on the edge/belt sander, the gap is fairly invisible. .

???

The gap is so visible in your image.

Try this: Wet the area with denatured alcohol or mineral spirits.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

I mostly agree. The one exception is when one or both of the elements framing the gap is end grain. I have patched end grain gaps more than once with sawdust plus PVA and you can't tell even after multiple humidity cycles over several years without a knowing what to look for and having a magnifier to look with. Otherwise you need wood, not dust, to fill the gap. Slivers are best for gaps like the OP's, although if it's really less than .01" it'll be a challenge to fit one.

Agreed with your remarks regarding end-grain fix, which is an exception commonly used by people fixing their dovetail woes.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

While I wouldnt ever use the method on a bespoke, boutique, or heirloom, piece (which this may well be), we have used that method literally tens of thousands of times on hairline cracks/gaps like the one in the photo.

We are actually on the same track, as the snake-oil salesman remark was made in the context of building fine furniture pieces.

Sawdust and glue as a fix is not wrong per se, but it is NOT suitable in this case if the OP intends to produce a table with legs that is to stand up the test of close examination -- by the trained eye.

On the other hand, if anything is good enough, sawdust would work, of course. I call it a second-rate solution. Or if the leg in question were for a worktable in the shop, no fix was even needed at all (since it was deemed structurally sound). Why bother with sawdust filler, etc.?

Simon

[Jeff Ramsey]

I'm curious if anyone has actually used the glue/sawdust method, or a filler, and dyed/stained mid-dark, and it still looked good.

I guess If one were to use a filler on my gap, then sand so only the filler is left in the thin little slot, it may work just fine. There would just be a little filler to stain, < a thickness of paper, and even if it didn't stain well it might look better than a slot hole.

Yes, and no. I could always see the filler; whether it was off-the-shelf filler that states "takes stain", or saw dust and glue. I evolved to using thin shims that are carefully sized. They seem to look the best and are hard to see if cut correctly. But I think your legs can be salvaged; don't give up on them.

[Nick Decker]

No way any glue, mixed with sawdust or not, will take stain the same way as the wood around it. Myself, I avoid stains whenever possible.

[Nick Shattuck]

To those that are suggesting filling in with thin strips, do you glue those in place? Or just use friction? If his gap is shallow and really thin, how do you get your strips into the gap? I ask because I have the same gap in a recent glue up and have been following this thread. I can't imagine fitting tiny strips into my gap but admittedly haven't tried it yet.

[mreza Salav]

I once made a cut on the wrong side of a big piece (post for a door-jamb) and realized it half-way through the cut. The first pic shows the screw-up.
The second piece shows the fix-up by inserting/gluing a piece of the same species the same thickness as the cut. Almost entirely invisible.

377080377079

[Jeff Ramsey]

To those that are suggesting filling in with thin strips, do you glue those in place? Or just use friction? If his gap is shallow and really thin, how do you get your strips into the gap? I ask because I have the same gap in a recent glue up and have been following this thread. I can't imagine fitting tiny strips into my gap but admittedly haven't tried it yet.

I cut them as thin as I can, and need, on a bandsaw. Then a card scraper with the shim held on a rubber mat. That lets me taper it, if needed. Then sandpaper. It takes a little fitting to get them right, but a tad loose since they'll expand with glue. Then a light wiping of aliphatic resin or hide glue (if the pot's hot).

[Jim Becker]

To those that are suggesting filling in with thin strips, do you glue those in place? Or just use friction? If his gap is shallow and really thin, how do you get your strips into the gap? I ask because I have the same gap in a recent glue up and have been following this thread. I can't imagine fitting tiny strips into my gap but admittedly haven't tried it yet.

Nick, it's a bit of work to shave things down so they fit. Sometimes I glue; sometimes I don't and prefer don't when I can for the very reasons that have been mentioned around finishing, especially in very porous woods. Fill sand and finish is preferable to me than glue in fill, sand and finish when I can get away with it. The finish will do a pretty good job of securing things if they are snug enough.

[Simon MacGowen]

To those that are suggesting filling in with thin strips, do you glue those in place?

Always. Wood movement or undue stress could expose an unglued fix and a risk I try to avoid.

Either thin CA glue (the thinner the better) or liquid hide glue. Glue must gointo the gap, not on the thin strip which can expand upon contact with moisture. That is a mistake commonly made and seen. As an insurance, I tape the surface to avoid glue spill. The area is then treated with a card scraper so lightly AFTER the glue is cured (30 mins with CA and overnight with hide glue). (A plane kiss works too, as long as you set it right.) The fix is as good as it can get in 99% of time or more.

Simon