Advice on JP combo vs separate tools

[Peter Zimmerman]

I’m in the process of building a new shop with the idea of returning to woodworking after a 25-year hiatus. My plan is to purchase a combination of equipment to suit my needs. I’ve been looking at different equipment lines to strike a balance between quality and value. In the jointers and planers, I believe that it makes sense to start with machines with helical cutterheads for the usual reasons that have been discussed before. I had planned on separate machines but I’m really intrigued by what I’m reading on the Hammer A3-31/41 machines. Taking shop size out of the equation, does it make sense to go with quality over specialization right out of the gate? For reference, I’m thinking of Grizzly extreme series or possibly PM as my other options. The same question would apply (sort of) for bandsaw options. Are European machines really all that and a bag of nuts? I read a number of people who have issues with Asian companies but most tend to like their value vs performance balance. Thanks for your thoughts and opinions.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Peter, I have an A3-31 and a B3 Winner with the outrigger.

My brother recently bought an N4400 band saw and he's really pleased, he was so happy to be rid of his clone band saw that he gave it away. Now he has a saw that works great and he's finally getting a lot of use out of his band saw.

As to your question, the A3 has zero snipe, lots of power, a digital readout (option) that's accurate to 0.1mm, which means never having to test or measure anything, just set it and plane.

I also have table extensions which are rarely used.

I have the knife system, many people buy the Silent Power cutter, I would if I were buying it again for the noise reduction, and the reduction of the chip volume compared to the knife type head. It's the only MAN rated (low kickback risk) segmented cutter head that I'm aware of.

I really like having the space savings, as well as the performance of this machine.

I do not find changeover an issue at all as I tend to joint and plane in batches.

If you go that route, a saw shaper will also give you a machine with enhanced capability, accuracy, capacity and safety over the traditional North American style machines.

I suggest you watch the videos on the Felder site, worth signing up for, they don't pester you............Rod.

[Will Boulware]

If you don't mind a little legwork and rehab, you could do really well with a vintage jointer and planer, and vintage bandsaws are great as well. If you're buying new (and it sounds like you are) the Euro combinations are hard to beat (unless you have space for Euro separates). Whatever you end up with, be sure you get as wide a jointer as possible. If I didn't have my big Crescent jointer, I'd be looking hard at a J/P combo.

As for bandsaws, if you're not into vintage cast iron, you really don't hear an unkind word about the Italian or Austrian saws. I've got a 3 phase 20" Rockwell that works wonderfully, but again, if this wasn't an option, I'd be buying a Euro machine.

[Ted Derryberry]

I had a Delta 13" benchtop planer and a Grizzly 6" jointer with a spiral cutterhead and needed to upgrade. The planer was too loud and I was doing a lot more work with lumber (vs. sheet goods) and would have worn it out in a year I'd guess. The jointer was a great value for the money I spent, but the 6" width was limiting. I thought I'd be getting Grizzly machines with spiral cutterheads. I ended up with a Hammer A3-31 with a spiral cutterhead and have had it about 10 months. My only regret is I didn't go ahead and get a Felder AD 741. The A3-31 is a great machine and I've been very pleased with it. The changeover hasn't been a big deal as I do production work and joint a bunch and then plane a bunch. Snipe is almost non-existent. I can't say zero because very thin boards (3/8" or so) tend to snipe unless you put some upward pressure on them as they exit the machine. Other than saving space in the shop, you're only paying for one cutterhead and one motor, and getting an extra wide jointer by most standards. If you were to buy a Grizzly 15" planer and 12" jointer I bet the total price would be close to what you pay for the A3-31. The ease of use, even with the changeover, and overall quality doesn't even compare, and I've been happy with everything I've bought from Grizzly.

I don't have extension tables, my salesman actually discouraged me from buying them until I used the machine awhile. On longer boards it might be nice to have an infeed extension on the jointer, but otherwise I don't think they're necessary. I just use roller stands to catch the outfeed jointing and planing. Last month I got a KF700SP saw/shaper and with the sliding table it looks like edge jointing is going to be a thing of the past for me except on boards too wide to through the planer on edge to dress them up after ripping.

[Prashun Patel]

I am a happy A3-41 owner. I got it because I am space constrained. But even if I get a bigger shop, I don't think I would go back to separates. I find it easy to switch over, and have adapted my work methods. I am able to gang up jointing and planing ops reasonably well. Even if I had more space, as a hobbyist, I'd prefer to use it for other ways than dedicated machines.

I would evaluate Minimax's offerings in this range too. Those owners love their Tersa heads as much some Hammer owners like their helical head. It's apples and oranges, but both have loyal followings.

[John TenEyck]

I have a MiniMax J/P. But if space were of no concern I'd have separate machines, without hesitation. Change-over is simple on my J/P, but no change-over is better. Of course I'd like to have Felder or MiniMax separates, but I'd have no qualms about the Grizzly Extreme series jointer or planer either. I have their G-636X BS and can attest that it is very capable with essentially no vibration and has met every expectation I had.

John

[Mike Heidrick]

No trading my separates for a combo. The trick is to buy nice separates.

[Curt Harms]

I have a jet JJP-12 combo machine. I bought it for two reasons 1) I had a 6" jointer and upgrading to an 8" seemed a half measure. I buy rough lumber and I can easily find boards over 8" wide. Yes I know I could joint boards wider than 8" on an 8" jointer but why if I'm buying new? 2) I'm space constrained and the JJP-12 will fit in a space 2' X 5'. I have it on a shop made mobile base which works quite well. If space is not an issue, like Mike says - buy nice separates or old iron.

[Brian W Evans]

I have a MM 16" J/P combo and I love it. I don't mind changeover but if money and space were not issues, I would have definitely stuck with separates. That said, if you're buying a whole shop full of tools, check out a full combo machine (jointer, planer, saw, shaper). You'll get some excellent equipment and have plenty of space left over for workbenches (can never have too many), a spray booth, lumber storage, etc., etc., etc.

This guy has a nice series of videos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpi1iSiR8ZE&list=PLVlHi90LHSWNBQlmEfewFiyb6CcH7wnbi) on the Minimax version of a full combo machine (CU300).

Never used a Euro bandsaw, but never heard anything but very positive reviews, either.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have the 12" Grizzly G0634XP. Would have liked the Hammer, but budget couldn't stand it at the time (maybe tomorrow?:))

Went from 6" & 12" separates; will never go back to unequal width in J/P capacity. Change-over is non-issue; and its a great way to save some space.

I'll have to let others get gooey over the Hammer features, but I think the 'combos' in general are good compromises and the XP works well / good value.

[Jim Becker]

I'm somewhat of a "believer" when it comes to J/P combos for small shops, hobby or pro, where the worker desires wider capacities for both flattening and thicknessing. The latter is generally easy with separates, but wide separate jointers are either pricy to buy new or require someone willing to work with (and be willing to maintain) a vintage old-iron machine. With the J/P combos available from Felder/Hammer, SCM/Minimax, etc., you get a lot of utility in a lot less space than "big separates" would require. And contrary to non-believer lore, the changeover between functions is pretty much something that takes a minute to a minute and a half at most...and that's with manually cranking up/down the planer table like with my machine. I personally wouldn't go back to separates. In some cases, I think taking into consideration of changeover makes for better planning and pace and that potentially means less mistakes.

As to Euro gear...yea, it's outstanding. But it's also something you're not going to be able to trot out to a local service center for any repairs. Just be prepared and willing to take care of the labor in the unlikely case that you should have to fix or replace a part at some point. My shop is filled with Euro gear and I have zero regrets. (Slider, J/P, Bandsaw) In fact, it would be really difficult for me to go back to mass-market type machinery and I'm not saying that for any reason of snobbery, etc. The quality and precision is incredible, even on the lower-end of the Euro market.

[Jamie Buxton]

.. Taking shop size out of the equation, ..

Get real. Ignoring shop size means you're just daydreaming.

[Peter Zimmerman]

I've looked on the Minimax website and the information leads me to believe that their units are all 3-phase. Am I mistaken on that? I'm also trying to justify a need for the larger Hammer A3-41. Shop size will be 40 x 55' with a mezzanine. Comfortable if not spacious for a 1-man operation.

[Jim Becker]

I've looked on the Minimax website and the information leads me to believe that their units are all 3-phase. Am I mistaken on that? I'm also trying to justify a need for the larger Hammer A3-41. Shop size will be 40 x 55' with a mezzanine. Comfortable if not spacious for a 1-man operation.
The SCM/Minimax machines are available in single phase.

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/planer-thicknessers-jointer-planers.893

You can contact Sam Blasco for detailed information and pricing:

Sam Blasco
sam.blasco@scmgroup.com (sblasco@scmgroup.com)
512-931-1962 (tel:512-931-1962)
512-796-3036 (tel:512-796-3036) (mobile)

[Peter Zimmerman]

I'm grateful for you clearing that up.

[Mick Simon]

I'm also a happy A3-41 owner. I bought it because of value per inch of both jointer and planer. I have the Silent Power head, extensions, digital wheel and caster set. Changeover is minimal since the first thing I did was make a $10 gizmo that chucks in a spare drill and clips onto the raising/lowering wheel to quickly get it to within a few cranks. The digital gauge is very accurate. The machine is much quieter than my old jointer and planer.

Here's a link to the gizmo if anyone is interested. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veJPpksmW8w) PM me if you'd like the simple dxf file.

[Art Mann]

I bought a Jet JJP-12HH. I had some issues with it early on but now I am very pleased. I bought this machine because I needed a 12 inch jointer but I didn't need to flatten really long boards. I already had a lunchbox planer that worked well for my purposes but the 3 HP planer is certainly a lot faster. I am soon moving into a larger shop so separate machines would be possible but I don't feel that they are worth it for the type of work I do.

[Ted Derryberry]

I originally was looking at a 5 function combo (but wouldn't have gotten the mortiser) and decided it made more sense to split it into two, a jointer/planer and saw/shaper. That was partially due to my shop being rather narrow and needing to put the machines against a wall with one aisle down the middle rather than in the middle and eat up space with an aisle on each side. Overall I don't think you save that much space, or much money, by combining all of them into one. The saw/shaper stays set up (duh) and the jointer/planer only comes out when I need it, which is about 3 days at a time every two weeks. That frees up a lot of space for other equipment that's in use the rest of the time.

Neat gizmo Mick. What kind of grease do you use on the planer table column and/or threaded shaft for raising it? Mine needs it and from what I remember the manual says "regular machine grease". What the heck is that? TIA

[Anthony Spotorno]

I have a Minimax J/P fs 41es, their top of the line unit. I thought that getting the combo unit would be a great space saver!... Unfortunately, my work style didnt flow well... UP / DOWN / UP / DOWN goes the main table, then you have to raise and lower the bottom table...

Don't get me wrong, the unit is awesome, but the change over if you need to move between the units often is not workable. I ended up buying a Felder dedicated planer and am very happy again.

[Jim Becker]

I originally was looking at a 5 function combo (but wouldn't have gotten the mortiser) and decided it made more sense to split it into two, a jointer/planer and saw/shaper.

Similar here; I couldn't do a full five function combo in my shop due to space arrangement, but also preferred the idea of the slider paired with the J/P so it was easy to bounce back and forth between them. (I didn't opt for the shaper option, but I somewhat regret that now) My J/P is in thickening mode 90% of the time as I flatten lumber for a project all at once the majority of the time (unless I have a premature senior moment and forget something or miscalculate) so any milling is for thickness after that. I don't edge joint at all...straight-lining on the slider eliminates that need once the material is flat and to thickness.

[John TenEyck]

Shop size will be 40 x 55' with a mezzanine. Comfortable if not spacious for a 1-man operation.

Separates, without question, if it were me in a space that size. Big ones.

John

[Ted Derryberry]

Similar here; I couldn't do a full five function combo in my shop due to space arrangement, but also preferred the idea of the slider paired with the J/P so it was easy to bounce back and forth between them. (I didn't opt for the shaper option, but I somewhat regret that now) My J/P is in thickening mode 90% of the time as I flatten lumber for a project all at once the majority of the time (unless I have a premature senior moment and forget something or miscalculate) so any milling is for thickness after that. I don't edge joint at all...straight-lining on the slider eliminates that need once the material is flat and to thickness.

What blade are you using for your straight line rips? I've been doing the same thing but am getting some splintering in yellow pine with the Felder 250mm 16 tooth blade. A couple of passes through the planer on edge takes care it, but I'd prefer a better cut to start with. I have a 250mm 40 tooth combination blade and thought I'd try that on the next production run. TIA

[Dan Friedrichs]

Similar here; I couldn't do a full five function combo in my shop due to space arrangement, but also preferred the idea of the slider paired with the J/P so it was easy to bounce back and forth between them.

I did the 4-in-1, but wish I'd had gone separate S/S and J/P. The inconvenience of J/P switchover and S/S is minor, but switching between planing and sawing, for instance, is a bit more annoying than would be ideal.

[Jim Becker]

What blade are you using for your straight line rips? I've been doing the same thing but am getting some splintering in yellow pine with the Felder 250mm 16 tooth blade. A couple of passes through the planer on edge takes care it, but I'd prefer a better cut to start with. I have a 250mm 40 tooth combination blade and thought I'd try that on the next production run. TIA

I pretty much only use Forrest WW-II blades; recently switched from my old 10" 40T to new 12" 48 T. I rarely get any splintering. I do have a 10" 20T ripping version for really thick stuff, but obviously, that's going to need to be cleaned up afterward.

[James Zhu]

Separates, without question, if it were me in a space that size. Big ones.

John

For a shop that size (40' x 50'), separate is the best choice. Here below would be my preference for Euro machines

1. All separate
2. J/P combo, saw, shaper
3. J/P combo, saw/shaper combo
4. Full combo

James

[Brian Holcombe]

Real happy with an FS41 Elite S. I don’t have room for huge machines but I do very much like quality. Fair warning in that you will quickly get on board with the full suite, so don’t do it unless you can also afford a shaper, sliding table saw, bandsaw, mortising machine and probably something I’ve forgotten.

[Ed Mazuronis]

For a shop that size (40' x 50'), separate is the best choice. Here below would be my preference for Euro machines

1. All separate
2. J/P combo, saw, shaper
3. J/P combo, saw/shaper combo
4. Full combo

James


+1

You have plenty of room for separates. Depending upon your budget, at the very least I'd go for option 3. That's what I have.

[Victor Robinson]

I went for Grizzly separates and I'll ultimately end up trading them for a A3-31/41. BUT, the reasons I'll be changing are a terribly cramped shop space and noise concerns. Yes, the A3 will be a nicer machine in terms of fit and finish, but I wouldn't sacrifice the flexibility and convenience of separates just for that, even if my separates are lower on the quality scale.

If I had a shop space as large or open as the one in question I would definitely be happy going separates. In other words, if I suddenly had the opportunity to move my shop into a large space, I wouldn't feel the need to change out my separates at all.

[Peter Zimmerman]

I have a PM-66 table saw so that part is set for now as well as a drill press. The jointer and planer were the next on the list as well as a bandsaw.

[Peter Zimmerman]

+1

You have plenty of room for separates. Depending upon your budget, at the very least I'd go for option 3. That's what I have.

Option 2 is most likely

[Brian Holcombe]

If I had more space I would have just bought bigger machines before separates. 20” European planers get pretty expensive, but a 20” j/p is less than the two combined. I’d rather retain as much space as possible for other things.

[Martin Wasner]

If you can do separate machines, there's no reason to do combo anything.

[Erik Loza]

My 2-cents, feel free to accept or reject as you like: Sure, separates are ideal and every customer I ever had went through the same mental exercise you are going through but in the end, we ALL have X-many dollars and X-much space. This feedback was consistent from almost every combo or jointer/planer owner I dealt with:

-Getting accustomed to the switchover and new workflow is a learning curve and will take some time and possibly shop rearrangement.
-Dollar for dollar, it was cheaper to get a European combo than two decent quality separates.
-After using the combo for a while, everyone said that they wondered how they had gotten by with what they had previously for so long.

Lastly, don't get bogged down in analysis-paralysis. Using a good European-built combo machine is so many light years ahead of what we are all used to that whatever you get, it will be a quantuam leap in performance over what you have used up til now. Good luck with your decision.

Erik

[Rod Sheridan]

My 2-cents, feel free to accept or reject as you like: Sure, separates are ideal and every customer I ever had went through the same mental exercise you are going through but in the end, we ALL have X-many dollars and X-much space. This feedback was consistent from almost every combo or jointer/planer owner I dealt with:

-Getting accustomed to the switchover and new workflow is a learning curve and will take some time and possibly shop rearrangement.
-Dollar for dollar, it was cheaper to get a European combo than two decent quality separates.
-After using the combo for a while, everyone said that they wondered how they had gotten by with what they had previously for so long.

Lastly, don't get bogged down in analysis-paralysis. Using a good European-built combo machine is so many light years ahead of what we are all used to that whatever you get, it will be a quantuam leap in performance over what you have used up til now. Good luck with your decision.

Erik

Words of wisdom, I went through the mental gymnastics before going with Euro combinations, exactly as Erik stated.

You will really appreciate the improvements in capacity, capability and accuracy, not to mention space savings.

And yes, a Euro combo machine is less expensive than comparable separates.........Regards, Rod.

[Peter Zimmerman]

Thanks for all the comments and opinions. It confirms that I'm probably heading in the right direction on my thought process.

[Ben Zara]

I have the Hammer A3-41A jointer and my A3 41-D planer is arriving in a few weeks. My shop is a 20x18 detached garage with an attic where I keep my lumber. I knew I would not love having to change set ups so even though it made a lot of sense to get a combo in terms of space so I spent the extra money on separate machines.

If you have a 40x45 shop there is no reason to buy a combo machine unless money is driving the decision.