dovetail saw

[Brandon Speaks]

So I know there are other threads on dovetail saws, but this might be a slightly more specific question. I intended to buy a Veritas standard dovetail saw but woodcraft was sold out so I figured no big deal I will wait a bit. But they are still sold out, so I looked online and nothing on amazon, woodcraft website sold out, highland work working sold out, I even placed an order for some other stuff from LV but they were also sold out of this.

In general the wait is no big deal, but my wife is out of town next week so I will get some after work shop time that I usually don't get and have and would like to include some dove tail cutting (this can be done with my current rip carcus but it would be nice to have a dt saw for it). Here is where the question comes in, the LN saw is available but nearly double the price. If it is a significantly better saw it might be worth the difference for me since I can have it when I want it and also have a better tool. If it is not significantly better I will wait.

I guess maybe I should pose the question like this. LV is $70 when ever it is back in stock at woodcraft, LN is $125 plus whatever the shipping is so lets say $135 or a $65 difference. If it is a $65 better saw it would be worth it to me to get a better tool now than a lesser tool later. If it is either the same or only a little better it is not.

So to make it simple I will place a $25 premium on getting it this week, effectively discounting the LN saw. If you could get the LV saw for $70 or the LN saw for $110 which would you get?

[justin sherriff]

Looks like lee valley has the saw in stock for $74 and woodcraft web site has a ship date of January 18.

[Derek Cohen]

The Veritas dovetail saw is in a price range of its own. There is nothing to compare with it (other than Japanese saws, such as the Z-saw) at this price. The LN is an excellent saw, albeit at a much higher price, but then all similar saws will cost in that particular range. If you do start looking for alternative, expect to pay more than the Veritas. Gramercy and Bad Axe should go on that list.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I don't have a Veritas DT saw but do have the LN. It's an excellent saw. I love mine. I also have some Badaxe dovetail saws which are also great but I don't notice a functional benefit over my LN. I'd be very surprised if you had any regrets getting the LN.

In terms of value the question is too personal and is completely subjective, not objective. Someone with a large budget may pay $500 for a 5% improvement or slightly preferable asthetics whilst another may baulk at $5. I would definitely buy the LN over the Veritas, even for looks alone. But only you can decide for yourself.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the Veritas and like it. Super value.
I have tested the LN. If you have the extra money, you won't regret buying the LN. If you don't, the Veritas is a nice tool at a good price.
Fred

[Brandon Speaks]

Looks like lee valley has the saw in stock for $74 and woodcraft web site has a ship date of January 18.

Well darn, when I finalized my other LV order last night it showed out of stock until mid February, now it is in stock again. Woodcraft date had also been much further out before. Looks like it it cost me more shipping than last night, but still very workable.

[brian zawatsky]

Personally I think the LN saw is hands down the best value out there for a high end dovetail saw. It can cut a laser straight tight kerf in a hurry, and feels like an extension of your wrist. I’d be highly surprised to find that you later came to regret the purchase.

[Phil Mueller]

Brandon, I have both the Veritas and LN dovetail saws. I have the Veritas 20tpi which I use for thinner stock (1/2” or less”). The LN at 16tpi (IIRC), is obviously a bit more agressive, and I use it for thicker stock, or when I feel confident with a faster cut. Both are the same thickness (.020”), feel good in my hand, and perform well. I don’t think you can go wrong with either of these.

And to be perfectly noncommittal, I also have a japanese pull saw that I will use with one of those magnetic dovetail jigs from time to time.

[Mike Henderson]

I have several LV dovetail saws and some LN dovetail saws. The both work fine but I prefer the LN dovetail saws. It doesn't make better dovetails but I just prefer it.

Mike

[Joe A Faulkner]

Call LV if you want to add the saw to your order they probably can accommodate and save you some on shipping.

[Kevin Smira]

I’ve got a LV that I’ve used twice. I’ve upgraded to a Rob Cosman and am much happier. I’d let the LV go for a good price...let me know...

[Todd Hyman]

Highland Woodworking sells both as well.

[Pat Barry]

I've got the LV models, both rip and crosscut. The crosscut saw is a bit of a grabby thing. It doesn't start cutting easily and tends to take too big of a bite for my liking. I find that I need to adjust my technique in order to make it cut the way I expect it should. I'm hoping with more 'training' it will become a favorite tool for me but right now its not. I'm looking for a simple way to tame it down a bit.

[Robert Engel]

I have the same impressions about the LV saw that the previous poster stated.

I have nothing to compare to other than a Japanese dozuki, which, every time I use it, I wonder why I just don't stick with it?

At some point I'm going to try a dozuki rip saw.

[brian zawatsky]

You could relax the rake angle a few degrees, that will help with the grabbiness. Also check that it isn't over-set; I use a small anvil and light taps with a smooth, slightly convex faced hammer to remove set. Alternatively you could take a swipe down the side of the teeth with a hard arkansas stone to remove a bit of set if necessary. Just be careful n ot to remove too much or the saw will bind.

[Derek Cohen]

I've got the LV models, both rip and crosscut. The crosscut saw is a bit of a grabby thing. It doesn't start cutting easily and tends to take too big of a bite for my liking. I find that I need to adjust my technique in order to make it cut the way I expect it should. I'm hoping with more 'training' it will become a favorite tool for me but right now its not. I'm looking for a simple way to tame it down a bit.

Hi Pat

Those symptoms sound like there may be too much set. If you agree, then there are ways to reduce this.

One way is to give each side a stroke with a 600 or 1200 diamond stone. Just once, then test. The other way is to fold a sheet of copy paper over the length teeth, and then either squeeze in a vise or gently tap with a metal hammer along the length. The aim for both is to reduce excess set. The paper method limit the set to the thickness of a sheet of copy paper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

That's the way I have dealt with set.
I had to file a saw teeth off and re-tooth. I set the teeth and then evened the set on diamond hones.

I have or had a saw set. It disappeared after a Harvey clean-up.

https://books.google.com/books?id=YXlDT6lZBCIC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=set+saw+teeth+with+screwdriver&source=bl&ots=lyua4UmGOa&sig=XTuyeIALxRz70QLLbMmzX5751n0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjj0aS6nt_YAhUNI6wKHf_LD1oQ6AEIXTAL#v=on epage&q=set%20saw%20teeth%20with%20screwdriver&f=false

[ken hatch]

I've got the LV models, both rip and crosscut. The crosscut saw is a bit of a grabby thing. It doesn't start cutting easily and tends to take too big of a bite for my liking. I find that I need to adjust my technique in order to make it cut the way I expect it should. I'm hoping with more 'training' it will become a favorite tool for me but right now its not. I'm looking for a simple way to tame it down a bit.

Pat,

a light stoning of the tooth line should work.

ken

P.S. I did not see the other replys before posting, sorry.

[Ron Bontz]

Just my uneducated 2 cents. Stoning the sides of the saw teeth do nothing more than file away the cutting points. Yes, it will push easier, but at a cost to the cutting ability of the saw. FWIW Before blaming the LV saw, which is pretty relaxed already, I would work on technique. LV saws do not generally have too much set. Not so easy to reverse the change in geometry of the saw teeth. Some folks expect the saw to glide across the wood like a mill file. Then they say it "cuts like butter". It's more like cutting with a butter knife. I have used, owned, and sharpened ever brand out there except Blackburns. I have also heard the same complaints about those same brands. So, in the end. Better to alter and evaluate the tehcnique than permanently change the geometry of the teeth. If you lived close by I would invite you to my little shack. Best of luck to you.

[Derek Cohen]

Good words, Ron.

One of the nagging memories I have is a dovetail saw I restored. I filed the teeth 17 tpi rip with a fairly relaxed 8 or 9 degree rake. I decided not to add set to the teeth, arguing that it was just a dovetail saw making shallow cuts. Well, it cut with a jerkiness and stuttered along. I then added set, and the saw proceeded to glide through the wood. In other words, the very same symptoms of too much set can also resemble too little set. Yes? And, yes, in my experience, the Veritas saws err on the too little set side.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

A question for both Ron and Derek,
How do you level the set after sharpening and setting the teeth.

I have or had two saw sets. I haven't seen them since the Harvey flood.
One is a Taintor and the other I don't remember the name.
I typically do a screwdriver set.

[Pat Barry]

To make the saw cut it feels like I need to lift up a bit to take out some of the bite. Not ready to change anything yet about the set but I do appreciate the comments. The saw is very sharp. Now a Japanese pull saw I have from rockler does cut like a knife in butter.

[Pete Taran]

Pat,

Back in the day when I used to make and sell saws, I went to quite a few trade shows. I always had a bench set up with some stock for people to try. Almost in every case, folks put too much downward pressure in the cut. They couldn't start the cut, and when they could get it started, it jumped and bounced in the kerf. When I taught them to relax, and pretend they were sawing in air and slowly contact the work, presto, they were off to the races. Not knowing your skill with a saw, could this be the case? A sharp saw is a ton more grabby than one that is dull. It takes considerably more skill to use a very sharp saw than one that is duller.

Also, I don't advocate stoning the teeth to remove set for the reasons stated. It does remove a little metal, but it also dulls the part of the tooth that does the cutting on the edge of the kerf.

Finally, you can measure the saw with a micrometer and see if there is too much set. When I made the IT saw, the plate was .020" thick, and I aimed for a max of .024" thickness at the cutting edge. If you measure it and it's .030, I agree that is too much set. If it's in the zone I mention, then I think it's technique.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t cut dovetails everyday or even every month for that matter. But when I do I I have two choices.

One being a Japanese pull saw and the other a badaxe stiletto. Both do a fine job but the Japanese saw just does the job with so much more ease and imop finesse.

Now I do have a mild case of tendonitis or and or carpal tunnel somthe light weight of the Japanese saw is noticed on my part. Or maybe it’s the weight of the badaxe saw that I notice most. As much as I relate weight in most cases with quality for me in saw and many hand tools I find it a deterrent.

Both are fine choice thought and more than get the job done. If I was a practice guy and from what people have to say I would just get the LV or LN. I’m not even a little frugal or practical so......

[Pat Barry]

I've used handsaws for 40+ years but there is always room for improvement as I am a weekend warrior, not a professional. I will work on my process a bit more before giving up on either of the saws. These are my first dedicated dovetail saws. My previous experience is with standard backsaws and I don't recall ever having as much trouble with those as I do these newer saws. Maybe they are just too sharp for me right now. LOL

[Bill Sutherland]

I am looking at the LN and some others mentioned here but leaning towards the Glen Drake dovetail saws.

[David Eisenhauer]

A single "gents saw" type handle just does not feel as ergonometric to me. Glen's saws look well made, but I would definitely have to try one before buying because other single handled saws never felt right or comfortable to me.

[Bill Sutherland]

Glen has some interesting videos on his saws.

[Derek Cohen]

I reviewed that saw several years ago: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GlenDrakeJoinerySaw.html

Mixed feelings - I applaud Kevin Drake for his innovative mind. Plus he is a real gentleman. I just did not like the saw on a few levels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Regardless of the handle's shape ( I can't hold a Gents saw handle) I have seen way too many people try a "Death Grip" while trying to use a saw...any saw.

Use only enough pressure in the grip to guide the saw.....NOT squeeze the life out of the handle.....Just a nice, loose and easy grip will do wonders.

They used to tell a rookie by the way they would hold a sword........

As for my not holding a "broom handled Gent's saw"? Uncle Arthur (Itis) has more to do with that.....I can no longer swing an Estwing hammer...I could, but the hammer would go flying..."Sorry about that!"

Currently, I just use an old Disston No.4, 14", 11 ppi rip to do such things as joinery work. YMMV

[michael langman]

I was going to post but Steven got to it first. A light grip on the saw when starting the cut helped me a lot.

I saw a nice dovetail saw from TFWW website. No one seems to mention it. It has a conventional handle, not the gents saw. Made In England I think.
I was wondering if anyone owns or uses one.

[Derek Cohen]

The Gramercy dovetail saw is a very fine saw and one of my favourites. I consider it a dovetail saw for the more experienced as it demands a very light hand.

My review: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/GramercyDovetailSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Hasin Haroon]

I realise I'm late to the game here but I prefer my LN saws over my Veritas - I have the thin plate tapered DT and Carcass Saws from LN, and those are my absolute favourite joinery saws - they cut fast, clean and straight so effortlessly.

I have a bunch of Veritas saws and a Bad Axe Sash - they are all excellent saws. I do find however that the Veritas come a lot easier to use (meaning easier to start), but cut slower. I think this is intentional, to make it more accessible to all the customers. So for someone just starting out with backsaws, the Veritas are excellent (of course you could also reshape the teeth). They are excellent value and very well made, if a bit ugly (in my opinion).

The Bad Axe Sash - is a thing of beauty, and I want to love it, but honestly it's the worst performing saw that I have, even worse than saws I've filed myself, and I'm no expert. Maybe I got a bad one, or maybe it's just my technique, but it's a hybrid filing that is supposed to do both rip and crosscuts well, but doesn't do either well. I find it grabby and not a saw that just floats into the work like my Lie Nielsen. I would resharpen it but I know Mark Harrell is a saw pro and I keep hearing praises of the saws so I figured I'll grow to love it....maybe some day. It's also my most expensive saw.

The LN's are quite a bit more expensive than the Veritas, and around half the price of the Bad Axe. They cut beautifully, and look great too. I can only speak for the thin plate saws, as I haven't tried the others. (They do however run the risk of getting kinked easier than a thicker plate).

[Bill Sutherland]

<p>
Thanks for the link. Even though you weren&#39;t thrilledwith the saw it sure had some nice clean lines.</p>

[Jim Koepke]

On holding a saw, one thing often stated is to hold it as if it was a bird in your hand. Do not try to steer it in the cut. A properly sharpened and set saw will pretty much keep itself going straight.

jtk

[David Bassett]

The Gramercy dovetail saw is a very fine saw....

Joel @TFWW wrote a blog about Choosing a Dovetail Saw (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/1024/title/How%20to%20Choose%20the%20Best%20Dovetail%20Saw%20 for%20Yourself) recently. He talks about the tradeoffs and features and things to consider. (He also admits, for him, the Gramercy is perfect, and if it wasn't they'd change the design. :) )

(Joel doesn't post often enough to check everyday and I end up forgetting, getting behind, and then binge reading. I just came across his post from last November yesterday.)

[Mike Allen1010]

Pat,

Almost in every case, folks put too much downward pressure in the cut. They couldn't start the cut, and when they could get it started, it jumped and bounced in the kerf. When I taught them to relax, and pretend they were sawing in air and slowly contact the work, presto, they were off to the races. Not knowing your skill with a saw, could this be the case? A sharp saw is a ton more grabby than one that is dull. It takes considerably more skill to use a very sharp saw than one that is duller.

Finally, you can measure the saw with a micrometer and see if there is too much set. When I made the IT saw, the plate was .020" thick, and I aimed for a max of .024" thickness at the cutting edge. If you measure it and it's .030, I agree that is too much set. If it's in the zone I mention, then I think it's technique.

+1 to Pete's excellent suggestions. In particular Pete's comments about putting downward pressure on the saw, particularly when starting the cut are super helpful and relevant to all sharp, Western hand saws, whether backed/joinery saws or full-size panel saws. Like Pete, most common problem I see is people putting downward pressure on the saw when trying to start a cut which leads to "grabbing/digging in" etc. , causing the tooth line to jump around and not start on the layout line.

Some of the tips I found most helpful for starting a cut square and directly on the layout line:


1) When starting the cut, use your left thumb at the edge of the work piece, against the edge of the saw plate to line up the tooth line with the layout line.


2) Keep the tooth line at a very low angle, almost flat relative to the surface of the work piece. This makes it easier to move the tooth line slightly left or right with your thumb to be directly aligned with the layout line when starting the kerf.


3) Apply no downward pressure! Instead focus on "hovering "the tooth line right above the layout line while moving it back and forth an inch or so. As you gradually let the weight of the saw fall unrestrained on the work piece you'll be able to start your kerf exactly where you want it. Once you have the kerf established you can raise the handle of the saw to a more efficient 45° angle of tooth line relative to the work piece.


Other things I find helpful that I'm sure most people already know:


* For using full-sized saws, the saw bench is your friend. I like a saw bench height at the top of my knee and prefer something fairly heavy and stable. Mine is made out of Doug fir 4 x 4's for the legs and an 11/2" thick top with a slot in the middle. The thickness of the top also allows you to use holdfast. A flip up or slide up stop on the edge of the saw bench is also super helpful to keep the work piece stable.


*Clamp the work – a sharp saw actually exert more pressure on the work piece than dull saw because the teeth are "digging in" to the wood fibers. Even when using small saw/workpiece, you can be surprised by how much the work will move around if not clamp down.


* When starting a cut, try and line up the tooth line, the layout line and your dominant eye (you're right-handed, right eye, etc.), all in the same vertical plane. It's also helpful to use a square on the work piece to help align the saw at a 90° angle for square cut.


Just a few suggestions I find helpful. YMMV.


Cheers, Mike

[Nathan Johnson]

I'm right handed and left eye dominant.
:)

[Daryl Weir]

When I first starting refurbishing saws, I never use to side dress but have for numerous years now. I don't use it to correct drift, just to create the knife edge Holly is talking about and to even up the set, even though my set is pretty darn even to start with. It's not a heavy pass either, just a very "LIGHT" pass. Disston, Atkins, Simonds and Holly all recommended it and I have no reason to doubt them. As always, peoples opinion on this will very but I have seen an improvement when doing it on hundreds of saws.

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[Pete Taran]

Daryl,

I do as the manual suggests, but not the tips of the teeth. As I'm sure you know, there is a burr from the file after filing, mostly in the gullet area. I use a medium India slip to stone the sides to remove that burr, but take great care to not go so high as to hit the top, cutting part of the tooth. For rip teeth, your teeth will never look like the picture in the illustration if you hit them with a stone or worn out file. Two different approaches that yield the same great results, I'm sure. I like my saws to cut as aggressive as possible. In my opinion, anything that removes sharp corners takes away from that.

Pete

[Daryl Weir]

I guess this is one where we’ll have to diasagree and I’ll just leave it at that.

[Chris Stephenson]

Erik over at Florip Toolworks just came out with a $99 dovetail saw, I received mine a few weeks back and it cuts like a dream. Worth taking a look: http://floriptoolworks.com/

[Phil Mueller]

Eric, I had not known about Florip Tools works (and I live in SE Michigan!). I’ll definitely have to pay them a visit next time I’m in the Traverse City area. Thanks for posting.

[michael langman]

Derek, Thanks for your reply on the Gramercy Dovetail saw, and the nice review.
It doesn't seem that popular, but looks like a nice saw.

[Frederick Skelly]

Erik over at Florip Toolworks just came out with a $99 dovetail saw, I received mine a few weeks back and it cuts like a dream. Worth taking a look: http://floriptoolworks.com/

Interesting. He wants $100 and LN - a known quantity with superb service - wants $125. I don't know if the savings is worth it or not - depends on the product. But I'll be very interested to hear how folks like the saw as he gets a few more out there on the market. Looks like things are moving forward - he has a 3 week backlog. (It's tempting to buy one just to support a veteran's start-up.)

He also sells a 6" Titanium rule (http://floriptoolworks.com/layout) for $15. To me, this seems like a novelty item - titanium tools really aren't needed for what I build. I don't like the way it's laid out either, but that's just me. But maybe it would make a cool stocking stuffer or something.

[michael langman]

A nice review on the Gramercy dovetail saw Derek. Thank you for posting it.

[lowell holmes]

I have three Lie Nielsen saws, a dovetail and both carcass saws, cross cut and rip. They predate the Lee Valley saws.
When I bought the dovetail, it was a fantasy saw. I left a woodworkers club meeting and bought one on the way home.
They were making a huge splash at the woodworking shows in those days. They are 16 years old, sharp, and shiney.
I keep them in the boxes they came in and are wrapped with Cortec paper.

Having them so long, I haven't stayed current on the market, but I suspect they still set the standard.

OBTW, I have a lot of Lee Valley tolls as well. I have three Veritas hand planes.

[Derek Cohen]

Lowell, if LN dovetail saws set the standard - and I do believe that they are indeed the aspiration point for many - then the kudos go to Pete Taran who, along with his partner, Patrick Leach, set up Independence Tools to make dovetail saws in the mid '90s. They set the bar at this time, since there was nothing comparable then. IT was purchased by LN, and became the saw you own today.

I already owned the LN dovetail saw in 2006 when I found a NOS (new old stock) IT on eBay. I wrote a comparason here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

Other boutique sawmakers followed in later years. The design and quality of the LN today was established by IT yesterday. That is why the LN is a benchmark today. A fine, fine saw. The LV comes along at a much lower price. It was designed to meet the price point without sacrificing quality of cut, control and comfort. In that, the LV achieves its goal. It, too, is a very fine saw. What it comes down to is what one can afford, and what one's aesthetic preference is. I prefer the traditional look of the LN saw, with its brass back. It is the one that is more likely to be used in my workshop. The LV is the one I usually take to woodshows when demonstrating technique.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lowell holmes]

Thanks for replying Derek.

I also have a 4"x 20" tenon saw I made from a Ron Bontz kit. I copied the LN handle for the saw using curly maple.
It will cut tenons and split boards in half really fast. If any of you are a bit bored, get a kit and make a saw.
You can make any handle you want to.

[Pete Taran]

Derek,

I never saw your comparison, thanks for your kind words. Making those handles was a lot of work. I did them on a two spindle carving panograph. From there it was rasp, scraper and sanding. Took me about a week to make 30 saws. The finely finished and shaped handle was the key selling point of the IT enterprise. It is an exact copy of a Groves and Son saw from 1830. The date was actually scratched into the handle, so there was no mystery of when it was made. Everything on that handle was made identical to the original, even the flat sides with the slight ridge where it meets the curve of the handle. That bead on the top horn was a lot of work, let me tell you.

As for the rake, I started making them with zero rake like the LN saw is today, but quickly got feedback that it was too hard to start. I relaxed it to between 4 and 8 degrees depending on how careful I set up the filer. It is pretty hard to get precise when the tooth is only .035" high. I'm proud of the fact that I never, ever, not one time, had a saw come back because it didn't cut right.

Regards,

Pete