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Vaughn McMillan
11-09-2005, 5:20 AM
I know we have several pilots among the gang here, and probably more than a few airplane buffs, so I thought you might enjoy this video clip I found on a travel forum I frequent. The text is Portuguese, but the footage is apparently from training or testing flights done by Boeing on some of their big birds...in big crosswinds. There is some serious crabbing going on in this video, and it works in any language. I put a copy of it at http://tg3k.com/TG3K/images/crosswind.wmv for anyone who's interested in seeing it.

Enjoy -

- Vaughn

Karl Laustrup
11-09-2005, 6:39 AM
Well, I'm going to try this again. I already did a reply, however when I clicked Submit Reply it vanished into cyberspace.

Vaughn, thanks for that link. Had to do similar a couple of times when I was taking my flight lessons a gajillion years ago. Nothing like the pilots in the clip though.

Imagine your a passenger looking out the window and straight down the runway you're going to land on. Serious pucker time, me thinks. To borrow from the PGA "These guys are good".

Karl

Andy Hoyt
11-09-2005, 8:28 AM
Yikes! Is it just me or did some of the landing gear on the 777s look "steered"?

Richard Gillespie
11-09-2005, 8:29 AM
Darn glad I don't fly very often and haven't ever experienced anything like that!

Dennis Peacock
11-09-2005, 8:37 AM
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about crabbing a plane in!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:
Pretty cool stuff there Vaughn. I used to have to do that with my radio controlled airplanes and found it to be not a lot of fun trying to get the plane on the ground "safely". :rolleyes: ;)

Thanks for the post.

John Miliunas
11-09-2005, 8:46 AM
Holy smokes!!! That last one almost looked like a chopper coming in for a landing!!!:eek: (Passengers reported the flight attendants were heard offering...,"And would you like a water, a snack bag? Depends?") :) :cool:

Jim Becker
11-09-2005, 9:42 AM
Wow...you have to hand it to those test pilots for their amazing talent. (And certain body parts made of brass or some harder metal...) Hey Martin, do they make you do that in the Airbus during training??? :D

Lee DeRaud
11-09-2005, 10:13 AM
Yikes! Is it just me or did some of the landing gear on the 777s look "steered"?Don't think so. But the B52 had that feature: all the wheels steered. Quite a sight to see one rolling down the runway "sideways".

David Fried
11-09-2005, 10:45 AM
That's it - I'm taking the train from now on.

Dave Richards
11-09-2005, 11:01 AM
Imagine the side loading on the main gear tires. Especially considering that they aren't rotating until just after contact. It's a wonder the tires don't roll right off the rims.

I had to make some crosswind landings during my private checkride. To make matters worse, downwind, base and part of final were over a lake. The last 1/16 mile or so was over corn, read that big thermal! (I was taught 1/4 mile finals.) I didn't manage to make those landing as nice as the test pilot(s) in the Boeing video. The examiner finally said, "Let's go back before you kill us both." :eek: I did get my ticket though.

Karl, I can imagine what the seat cushions would look like after that. :D

Scott Parks
11-09-2005, 11:12 AM
Oh, come on.... Any landing you walk away from is a good one... Pilots are mere mortals with super human skills...:D As we call it in the buisiness "a controlled crash"....

Lee DeRaud
11-09-2005, 11:22 AM
Imagine the side loading on the main gear tires. Especially considering that they aren't rotating until just after contact. It's a wonder the tires don't roll right off the rims.Uh, did you happen to see the footage of the Airbus at LAX last month that landed with the nose gear stuck at 90 degrees? First tire lasted several hundred feet after it touched down. Second tire was off the rim but pretty much intact when it stopped. Pretty impressive, under the circumstances.

Dave Richards
11-09-2005, 11:29 AM
Oh, come on.... Any landing you walk away from is a good one... Pilots are mere mortals with super human skills... As we call it in the buisiness "a controlled crash"....


And it's a good one if you don't leave skid marks on the underside of the wings. :D

Lee, I saw that. Pretty impressive

Bill Lewis
11-09-2005, 12:41 PM
And it's a good one if you don't leave skid marks on the underside of the wings. :DOr in your pants!;)

Dave Richards
11-09-2005, 1:14 PM
Or in your pants!

Yeah, that's a bit embarrassing.

I found this landing video clip. Another 747.
http://www.rapp.org/wp-content/092104-747_landing_hong_kong.jpg

Lee DeRaud
11-09-2005, 1:19 PM
Oh, come on.... Any landing you walk away from is a good one... Pilots are mere mortals with super human skills...:D As we call it in the buisiness "a controlled crash"....My dad was a master of understatement. His favorite pilot saying was, "One mid-air collision will ruin your whole day.":eek:
He survived one in an F89, so I guess he knew whereof he spoke.:cool:

Ian Barley
11-09-2005, 2:43 PM
The Farnborough International Airshow takes place about 1/2 mile from my front door. I always remember coming home one evening to the sight of an Airbus doing a tail slide across the length of the field at a few hundred feet. It looked like he was balancing on my garden fence.

Awesome video - just glad I wasn't in any of them at the time.

Bruce Page
11-09-2005, 2:44 PM
Cool video Vaughn. I was in a 737 landing in Phoenix that was crabbing almost as bad. I think they had to reupholster that seat. :eek: :o :eek:

Steve Clardy
11-09-2005, 2:53 PM
Well. Wish I had something other than dial-up.
Some of those just takes forever to load. You know. Click, leave for thirty minutes. Then get to see a 15 second video. Lol
Oh well------

Vaughn McMillan
11-09-2005, 4:24 PM
The Farnborough International Airshow takes place about 1/2 mile from my front door. ...
You are a very fortunate man, Ian. I'd love to be that close to that show. Noisy, I'm sure, but it'd be worth it to me.

- Vaughn

Dave Richards
11-09-2005, 4:46 PM
Of course there's always the landing of flight 405. FLIGHT 405 (http://www.405themovie.com/download405.asp)

Ian Barley
11-09-2005, 4:48 PM
You are a very fortunate man, Ian. I'd love to be that close to that show. Noisy, I'm sure, but it'd be worth it to me.

- Vaughn
Vaughn - Its only two weeks every other year so the noise is not a problem to me - the cat doesn't like it though. The best moment is when the Battle of Britain memorial flight goes over. There is something about the sound of six Rolls Royce Merlin engines which has my spine tingling just writing about it.

Dan Oliphant
11-09-2005, 5:18 PM
I used to fly a lot (as a passenger) prior to retiring, thank my lucky stars I never saw anything the likes of this. Something like this video shows would have made me thing about a career change.

Loy Hawes
11-09-2005, 6:16 PM
Of course there's always the landing of flight 405. FLIGHT 405 (http://www.405themovie.com/download405.asp)

LOL! Thanks for the link!

Dave Richards
11-09-2005, 7:23 PM
I was just watching the crosswind landing video again. With the controls crossed up like they were, I wonder how much the downwind elevator was blanked.

I'd also be curious to know how the throttles were managed.

Lee DeRaud
11-09-2005, 8:31 PM
I was just watching the crosswind landing video again. With the controls crossed up like they were, I wonder how much the downwind elevator was blanked.Couldn't have been too bad, he managed to keep the nose up until the main gear was down and the plane (more-or-less) straightened out.

Scott Parks
11-09-2005, 9:25 PM
I wonder how much the downwind elevator was blanked.

Hardly any at all... The forward componant of relative wind is still at least 145kts. The controls aren't crossed up (slip) in the crab, just during the flare.


I'd also be curious to know how the throttles were managed.
Evenly....

Brad Schmid
11-10-2005, 10:47 AM
Ok, I want to look, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I'm leaving for the airport in a few minutes to go on business to Amsterdam, Dubai, Paris, then back to U.S. (747's, MD 11's, Airbus 330's) Call me "weak", but I think I'll wait until I return next Friday to look:D What I don't know, won't hurt me;) :eek: :D

John Miliunas
11-10-2005, 11:05 AM
Ok, I want to look, but I just can't bring myself to do it. I'm leaving for the airport in a few minutes to go on business to Amsterdam, Dubai, Paris, then back to U.S. (747's, MD 11's, Airbus 300's) Call me "weak", but I think I'll wait until I return next Friday to look:D What I don't know, won't hurt me;) :eek: :D

Ahhhh...You sure you want to go to Paris????:eek: Hope you have a pleasant and save journey, Brad!!!:) :cool:

Ray Arnold
11-10-2005, 3:35 PM
Uh, did you happen to see the footage of the Airbus at LAX last month that landed with the nose gear stuck at 90 degrees? First tire lasted several hundred feet after it touched down. Second tire was off the rim but pretty much intact when it stopped. Pretty impressive, under the circumstances.


This is what was left
http://image63.webshots.com/163/2/90/56/501629056ELVXPC_ph.jpg


http://image56.webshots.com/56/2/82/15/501628215sCoOxg_ph.jpg


http://image60.webshots.com/160/2/80/96/501628096JFXMmt_ph.jpg

Ray Bersch
11-10-2005, 4:49 PM
Well, I was gonna comment that it is pretty difficult to hold a wing down close to the ground in one of those babies, but one link that Scott posted sure illustrates what I mean if the wing is left down too long - now, in the other photo in Scott's post, did anyone notice what one observer of the Air France plane was wearing?? Or not!! I thought this was a family forum:rolleyes:

For anyone who can read Spanish, could it be that the demonstration was really to illustrate a short field landing rather than a cross wind crab?? I can't imagine a wind strong enough to require THAT much crab and still be safe during roll out. But a cross controlled crab is a great way to lose altitude quickly without building up air speed.

Bruce Page
11-10-2005, 9:25 PM
[quote=Ray Bersch] now, in the other photo in Scott's post, did anyone notice what one observer of the Air France plane was wearing?? Or not!! I thought this was a family forum:rolleyes:
quote]

Ray, if you look at the high rez pic, he is wearing trunks, skimpy as they are...:rolleyes:

Jason Roehl
11-10-2005, 10:37 PM
For anyone who can read Spanish, could it be that the demonstration was really to illustrate a short field landing rather than a cross wind crab?? I can't imagine a wind strong enough to require THAT much crab and still be safe during roll out. But a cross controlled crab is a great way to lose altitude quickly without building up air speed.

Uhh...that was Portuguese. It's been 15 years since I lived in Brazil, so there's a bit more than surface rust on that portion of the brain, but in the end was the idea that "you could learn to fly like these guys at our flight school."

Or something like that.

A real enterprising individual could copy down the Portuguese text and run it through an online translator. It's past my bedtime, so I'm not very enterprising right now. :D

Keith Christopher
11-11-2005, 3:00 AM
I was flying into Manchester once and as we approached the cross winds were so bad we landed like that. It was kinda freaky, I was sitting in the last seat of the plane, window seat. And you could feel the plane move sideways through the sky, I'd watch the front of the plane move the opposite of me. And as we landed I could see the runway and we were in almost the same position as the first plane. The pilot put the plane down so gently too. I don't mind pilots making the money they do, heck pay 'em more !

Don Baer
11-11-2005, 4:17 PM
Vaughn,
Reminds me of a United Flight I was on landing at ONT during Santa Ana winds. When the pilot got it down everyone cheered the pilot. We were the last plane allowed to land as they closed the runway after our landing.

Scott Parks
11-11-2005, 5:02 PM
I don't mind pilots making the money they do, heck pay 'em more !

YEAH! :D:D:D

Ray Bersch
11-11-2005, 7:01 PM
is[/I] wearing trunks, skimpy as they are...:rolleyes:

Bruce, I'll take your word for it - did not really WANT to go high rez on that gender!!

Jason, ok Portuguese - unfortunately, its all Greek to me - I know I should know better but I have a hard enough time learning woodworking - but I do know I won't go to that flight school for my ATP rating (which I don't really want to get anyway!)

Hope all had a great Vet's Day.

Curt Harms
11-12-2005, 4:30 AM
Oh, come on.... Any landing you walk away from is a good one... Pilots are mere mortals with super human skills...:D As we call it in the buisiness "a controlled crash"....

and if you can reuse the airplane it's a great one:D

Jason Roehl
11-12-2005, 8:59 AM
Jason, ok Portuguese - unfortunately, its all Greek to me - I know I should know better but I have a hard enough time learning woodworking - but I do know I won't go to that flight school for my ATP rating (which I don't really want to get anyway!)

Hope all had a great Vet's Day.

No problem, Ray. I just can't believe how many times, when I said I had lived in Brazil, people would ask me if I had learned Spanish as a result. I think it was in elementary school sometime that I had learned that virtually every Central and South American country speaks Spanish, except Brazil, which is Portuguese-speaking (and I think the official language of Belize is English).

Ernie Kuhn
11-14-2005, 2:23 AM
Vaughn,
The last one is incredible. Lots of rudder work visible.
Think I'll drive.
Ernie

Martin Shupe
11-14-2005, 4:55 AM
Vaughn...

Great post, but I had to wait until I got to a hotel with high speed internet to view it, which is why I didn't post earlier.

FWIW, the A-300 limit for a 90 degree crosswind is 32 knots, the A-310 is 28.

We practice these every 6 months in the sim, during our proficiency and check rides.

The technique is the classic "wing down, top rudder", but must be done with a certain amount of finesse. The trick is to put the wing down into the wind just enough to kill the drift, but not so much that you scrape the engine, hence the limitation. The rudder is used to align the longitudinal axis with the runway, so you don't take off the main gear with excessive side loads. Of course, if you don't put it down on centerline, or very close to it, you risk putting a gear in the dirt.

I am told that some large aircraft have "free castoring" main gear, but I have not flown any, so I don't know which ones.

In the A-300/310, it is actually easier to wait to put in the inputs until the last 100 feet or so, though I am not sure why. I have tried it both ways, and the closer you are to the ground, the easier it is.

The Captain usually lands in "adverse conditions". The night Katrina passed just east of MEM, we landed in a pouring rain with gusty winds near the limit. The Captain did a great job getting us down, then on rollout, the centerline lights went out.:eek: We asked tower what was up and they said the airport had lost power, and it would take a second to get the back up generators up to speed. Lucky for us, the runway edge lights stayed on, and I gave the Captain steering commands off the runway indicator we use for CAT III rollouts.

We had several diverts to STL that night due to windshear, which is a mandatory go around, then they didn't have enough fuel for the 40 mile final.

Any other airline would not have operated under those conditions. Certainly not with pax on board, but boxes don't complain or get scared.

Taking off was just as challenging...."you are cleared position and hold, and after you look at the radar, tell us when you want to try it". Some days I really miss my ejection seat.:D