Timber Framing chisels?

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been working on removing a 1- 1 1/2” x 16” piece of red oak from a red oak log. Should be doing it with an adze & or carving axe but, mine are at our cabin at the moment. The 2” bevel edge Narex chisel I have been using seems over matched.

I got interested in Timber Framing and have been watching guys do timber framing on YouTube. Most of the joinery for this work seems to be done with a 1 1/2” Timber Framing chisel, not a firmer chisel, not a slick, but a real Timber Framing chisel. Barr Tools seems to make the prefered tools for this work.

I am wondering if anyone here has any experience to relate with regard to these chisels and their use? I may make a trip to Highland Woodworking tomorrow to check them out.

Below is a series of videos, in which, a guy & his wife: take down trees, hew timbers from the logs, build a two story workshop, using classic timber framing joinery. They use wood & plaster to make the walls within the frame, build windows & doors, even door latches are made from wood......

https://youtu.be/s8GP68nLpEY

https://youtu.be/uPaVWd3SKl4

.....sort of redefines Neanderthal & reliance on hand tools.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'm a timber framer by trade, so I suppose I'll speak up a bit.

I don't own Barr framing chisels but have used them many times (co-workers own them), and they are fantastic. Very high quality steel and manufacturing.

All of my framing chisels are from old American tool makers (Witherby, Pexto, Union Tool, etc) and they are great, with some caveats* The Witherby chisels are my favorites to use and sharpen. I have framing chisels ranging from 1" - 2" in various widths. I have paid ranging from $10-75 for them on the used market (some from eBay, some from antique markets, etc.)

*The issue that you're likely to have with old chisels is the back not being flat enough upon purchase. This will lead to either a major lapping/flattening session just to get it prepped to sharpen and hone, which could potentially create a "belly" along the back of the chisel. This has happened to me on a couple of occasions and some of my chisels weren't flat to begin with, but I bought them anyway. You can use a framing chisel in this state with a belly along the back in many ways just fine, but you just have to be aware in a long, paring situation you can't necessarily rely on the back as a reference the same way you might with a chisel that has a dead-flat back.

This is where the value of the $150+ Barr chisels come into play. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a couple of Barr framing chisels if I were starting again; it will save you countless hours of flattening and initial sharpening. 1 1/2" and 2" are the most used sizes, though others can certainly be useful.

A good quality mallet or two cannot be overstated for timber framing. I recommend having a couple different weights around. I normally use a 30 oz urethane Wood is Good round mallet. One of my co-workers uses a rawhide / steel Garland mallet, which a good bit heavier and can pack some serious heat. It's handy for chisel work, but I find it to be the most handy during assembly when timbers need a little adjustment or persuasion to seat all the way.

I really enjoy those Mr. Chickadee videos. They are peaceful, quiet and beautiful.

[Mike Holbrook]

Phillip, thanks for the reply, very helpful!

I have been making a selection of mallets from a dead/dying large dogwood on our property. I have been amazed at how much abuse these mallets have shrugged off so far. I have also been thinking about purchasing a Thor, metal head mallet. Apparently the heads can be purchased seperately. I have been thinking about rawhide on one side and poly on the other.

I have been surprised at what the Narex 2” chisel has endured during my red oak log project. This chisel has a plain wood handle that I figured would break much easier. I am working on a carving bench for axe & adze work. I am confident a Barr or other framing chisel will endure a good deal more.

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Mr. Chickadee offers a great variety of valuable information, which I suspect I will be utilizing for quite a while. Yes, peaceful and beautiful as well.

[Patrick Chase]

I have been surprised at what the Narex 2” chisel has endured during my red oak log project. This chisel has a plain wood handle that I figured would break much easier. I am working on a carving bench for axe & adze work. I am confident a Barr or other framing chisel will endure a good deal more.

I question whether you really need to upgrade to a framing chisel here, unless you want something longer. The Narex chisels are pretty heavily made, and the alloy they use is inherently very well suited to this sort of work.

Narex quenches their steel in a manner that converts austenite to lower bainite instead of martensite. They don't temper per se, since the bainite comes out of the quenching process at the target hardness of ~Rc59. Lower Bainite at Rc59 is quite a bit tougher than Martensite that's been tempered to the same hardness, so other than the handles that 2" Narex is pretty well suited to framing "as is".

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

I can also recommend the Barr framing chisel. I have the 1 1/2" and used it recently to build a cypress pergola and will soon be building a traditional timber frame garage. It takes and holds an edge extremely, extremely well. The edge retention is really impressive, even compared to my Veritas PMV11 bench chisels.

The downside is that mine took a heap of work to initially flatten the back, which came very bumpy / out if flat. A couple of solid hours on a DMT extra coarse 10" diamond plate mostly sorted it.

Cheers, Dom

[lowell holmes]

I acquired a 2"x 13" chisel without a handle many years back. It had been beaten with a hammer on the open socket. I had to dress the socket so I could make a handle. Not having a lathe, I made hexagonal handle and then whittled it round.
I bought a chrome plumbing fitting and made a 1 1/4 diameter x 7/8" ring to reinforce the striking end. The overall length is 20". The back was flat when I got it.

I have made mortise and tenon legs for a garden trellis. The legs are treated 4X4 square posts. I chopped mortises in treated 4X4 posts and made tenons for the cross pieces.
I can post a photo if anyone wants to see it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Dom, they say the Timber Framing chisels are R62, definitely hard.

No lathe here Lowell. I have been making square & hex chair & table legs to compensate. Not sure exactly how you fixed the chisel you mention. A picture might help.

Patrick, my concern is more for the handle on the Narex chisel. I have been whacking it hard with the mallet in the picture and I have heavier ones. So far the steel has held up. It isn’t designed to stand up to what a framing chisel is though. I have been making joints in 8x8 & 4x4 timbers recently.

[Dominik Dudkiewicz]

Dom, they say the Timber Framing chisels are R62, definitely hard.

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I actually checked on the hardness tester at work and measured 61 HRC. A veritas PMV11 measured 61.8 HRC but I suspect aside from hardness the Barr is just tougher; the edge doesn't break down like the Veritas tend to.

[Peter Christensen]

I’m wondering what the opinions are on the Sorby chisels Lee Valley sell? I took a timber framing class for a week in the winter of 1991 and bought some for it. They worked well but I haven’t used them for the same work since.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=30012&cat=1,41504,41529

[Jeff Heath]

The Barr tools are nice if you have more money than time. Like Phillip mentioned, buying vintage means you have more work to put in flattening them. My timber framing chisels were bought at a swap meet for 10 bucks apiece. They are excellent quality steel, and are made by Greenlee (3) and also 1 from Swan. I also picked up a couple of 1" skew chisels which are nice to have for joinery and getting into tough corners. I probably spent about 2 hours on each chisel flattening, new grind and hone, and a new handle for 2 of them. It's a one time adventure (flattening) that will never need to be done again, except for touch up.

The vintage steel is every bit as good as new chisels today, if not better.

There is a measurable difference between a proper timber frame chisel and the Narex chisel you are trying to use, and it's size and heft. Anyone who doesn't see that hasn't done much timber framing. On my first TF project, I set out using my normal bevel edged Greenlee (also vintage) chisels. I have a full set that I've accumulated over the years up to 2". They just weren't big enough. Proper TF chisels are longer, much more stout, and with longer handles. All of that is needed to do a high volume of work quickly.

If you have nothing but time on your hands, then you can accomplish anything with a sharpened spoon, too, but I wouldn't recommend it as the way to go if you have an option.

If you decide to spend the money on the Barr chisels, you won't be disappointed. I have used them (somebody else had a set a frame raising I was at and allowed me a whirl) and they are very nice. Just very spendy, too. I probably would have bought a couple of them for my TF work if I hadn't found my vintage chisels at the swap meet.

[Mike Holbrook]

I am looking at older tools too. I am thinking about buying 1 Barr, 1 1/2 or 2” and a couple older ones to restore.

I like restoring the older tools too:

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[lowell holmes]

I've never seen anything from Lee Valley that was not good.

I've never seen nor used the Sorby chisels, but if I were wanting some, I would but them in a heart beat.:)

[John C Cox]

I love my hand tools and all.... But huge stock removal with hand tools is not fun for me... This looks like a perfect job for a good router or a skil saw to hog out the bulk of the waste.... Crosscut grooves into the wood - then the use the chisel to clean it all up...

[John C Cox]

Hi Mike,

Yeah, I actually checked on the hardness tester at work and measured 61 HRC. A veritas PMV11 measured 61.8 HRC but I suspect aside from hardness the Barr is just tougher; the edge doesn't break down like the Veritas tend to.

I have not heard that issue with the PMV11 chisels.... Have you had issues with the edges chipping?

[Tom M King]

I recently spent 14-1/2 hours (kept up with the time over consecutive days) using a timber framing chisel, and 30 oz. Wood is Good urethane mallet. I'll never use any other kind of mallet now. There was almost no noticeable mushrooming on the end of the chisel handle, and no sore elbow, or wrist. I don't know what brand chisel it is. It was one my Dad owned, and has no stamps, or engraving of any kind. It was nothing fancy though, and I'm sure no steel harder than 01. We were doing some Heart Pine sill repair in a 1755 house.

[lowell holmes]

In response to Mike Holbrook, I took a piece of maple and made a hexagon on on the table saw. Then I hand planed the corners of the hexagon to make 12 sides.
Then with a spoke shave I rounded the edges. A little sanding and I had a round handle. I bought a chrome plated sink drain and hack sawed a chrome ring to
put on the striking end eliminating wood fracture.

My ability to make pictures and post them was taken away by Hurricane Harvey.

[Mike Holbrook]

I decided I might as well get blanks for making pegs for drawbores, while I was removing wood for a bracing spot. Certainly there are easier ways to remove the wood in this project, those methods do not produce peg blanks, define the limits of bevel edge chisels or build chisel skills that may apply to timber framing joinery. I won a 3/4” framing/corner chisel and watching others. Highland is out of stock on the Barr timber chisels.

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I am working on chair legs too Lowell. I need to make a rest with a 90 degree notch, so I can hold legs securely while I work. The work I have been doing is making it obvious that I need a much heavier planing bench. I need to finish the work table/bench I am working on first. Yes, an adjustable height bench to build a bench with. The adjustable height table/bench is on wheels so I can use it to support work at the planing bench and other cabinets, worktables, larger tools....Maybe when I get moved and have more woodworking time.

[Kevin Adams]

Mike, not sure your time frame for needing the chisels, but you can always order direct from Barr. You can even call them and will probably speak with his wife, Ginger. Very nice folks and the tools are first rate as others have said.

Kevin

[Mike Holbrook]

Right Kevin. I have had Barr Tools bookmarked for years. I have a set of Barr Carpenters chisels that I bought during a Highland sale years ago. I was hoping to hold a 1 1/2, 2, 1 1/4 to get a better idea of which might work best for the work I plan to use the chisel for. I may restore a couple older tools to figure out what I need.

Many of the older framing chisels I find have replacement handles. Most of the replacement handles do not have metal end caps/keepers. I can of course make a custom handle and may be able to find keepers or make new ones like Lowell did. The Narex, without a keeper, held up under my dogwood mallet better than I thought it would. I am not sure if the dogwood mallet was helping the handle out or not. Some of the handles I see use leather washers at the top of the handle or at the place the blade meets the handle.

I am wondering what the experience of guys who have used various handle types has been regarding the handles holding up? I suspect the popularity of the Wood Is Good mallets has to do with their helping out handles. I have a WIG mallet but I think it is too light for a timber framing chisel. I am also enjoying my homemade dogwood mallets.

[Wallace Brooks]

Look closely at the Sorby chisels at Lee Valley. They all appear to have tanged construction. The Barr Quarton chisels are expertly hammer forged from good steel, with heavy sockets and stout hoops. The design follows that of a Millwright's chisel. If you care about aesthetics, Barr chisels are brutally strong, well-balanced industrial art.

[Warren Mickley]

I bought a Sorby framing chisel from Garrett Wade in 1983. They appear to be the same today and I can recommend them for quality and durability. I prefer tang chisels for heavy timber work, although many do prefer socket chisels.

I would recommend older chisels also. There are a lot more of these chisels around than people who know how to use them.

[Mike Holbrook]

Good to hear from you Warren,

I won a 3/4” corner chisel and a 1 1/4” regular framing chisel, both made by Witherby. They appear to be in good shape. I have been bidding on less popular sizes which often go for a fraction of the cost. Will have to make a handle for 1. I have ash and hickory with good straight grain....

[Mike Holbrook]

I am having some difficulty distinguishing between: bench, firmer, cabinet, framing......chisel types. Typically the framing chisels are longer, specifically with longer blades. Slicks are the longest of all the chisels. It appears that much of the Slicks length is due to a longer handle, designed to be used with both hands. It may be that some of the older chisels have had substantial blade length reduction, by sharpening and grinding, over the years. I am hard pressed to accurately define some of the chisels offered at auctions.

The Barr chisels seem to start at cabinet makers chisels- 10.5” for a 1.5” wide tool, move to a larger 13” x 1.5” bench chisel, the framing chisel is 17” x 1.5”. Barr’s cabinet makers chisel may be close to what other chisel makers term firmer chisels. I have a few Barr “Cabinet” chisels, which I bought because I wanted a chisel I would not be concerned about striking with a heavy mallet. The main issue with the cabinet makers chisels is they may be too short to make joints in 6 x 6” or 8 x 8” timbers. Wondering how others sort this issue when bidding on auction sites?

[Jeff Bartley]

Mike,
Check with Patrick Leach. I bought a 1 1/2" framing chisel from him a few years ago, needed work, but it was only $30. After a bath in evaporust and a good honing it rules!
That being said I've spent some time with a few of the Barr chisels and slicks and they are indeed worth every penny, you just more pennies for them than the old ones!!

[Jim Koepke]

Wondering how others sort this issue when bidding on auction sites?

By looking closely and asking questions. Most of the inexperienced sellers on auction sites will call a chisel the only thing they have ever heard it called. So if they have only heard of a timber framing chisel even the most delicate paring chisel will be called a timber framing chisel.

Same with planes, it is almost funny to see someone call a molding plane a block plane.

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

Mike, those are 2 Excellent videos!! He (they) really are doing it the traditional , no power way...A pleasure to watch...Thank you,,

[Jerry Olexa]

I bought a Sorby framing chisel from Garrett Wade in 1983. They appear to be the same today and I can recommend them for quality and durability. I prefer tang chisels for heavy timber work, although many do prefer socket chisels.

I would recommend older chisels also. There are a lot more of these chisels around than people who know how to use them.

Well said....

[ernest dubois]

I would hurry back up to that cabin and retrieve your axe. What can be achieved in timber framing with some good axes might surprise you.

[lowell holmes]

You can find an abundance of timber framing chisels on the popular auction site.

[Ron Kanter]

I am not a timer framer, but I recently built a 12' x 10' timber frame shed using two Barr chisels. All mortise and tenon joinery and no mechanical fasteners until I put on the metal roof.
The Barr chisels were great. Held an edge and the handles showed almost no damage at the end of the project. I would suggest getting two chisels, maybe 1 1/2 and 1" or 2" and 1 1/2". The narrower chisel makes it easier to clean up/out the joints made the larger blade.
One other suggestion, think about the weight of the wood you a planning to use. I used yellow pine rather than oak because of the cost. After moving 6" x 6" pine beams around, I realized that oak I would not have been able to move oak beams by myself!

[Mike Holbrook]

I was looking at “slicks” on the auction site earlier. Wow, sellers are proud of those tools. I believe slicks, like Japanese paring chisels, are designed with longer shafts, so more leverage can be applied. Most slicks seem very wide for the joints I plan to make.

I am wondering what size, shape, handle styles, others find useful? 1.5” seems to be the most popular framing chisel size, though the one I won is 1.25”. I won an auction for a 3/4” corner chisel. I have large gouges.

I have Japanese paring chisels for paring. The blades may be a little short but the long handles should allow me to get down into large joints. The slicks I have seen are much larger than my Japanese chisels though. I am wondering if there is a significant mechanical advantage to having a longer tool with room for both hands? Maybe a framing chisel with a longer handle. 2” seems the most popular paring size.

[Patrick Chase]

I was looking at “slicks” on the auction site earlier. Wow, sellers are proud of those tools. I believe slicks, like Japanese paring chisels, are designed with longer shafts, so more leverage can be applied. Most slicks seem very wide for the joints I plan to make.

I am wondering what size, shape, handle styles, others find useful? 1.5” seems to be the most popular framing chisel size, though the one I won is 1.25”. I won an auction for a 3/4” corner chisel. I have large gouges.

I have Japanese paring chisels for paring. The blades may be a little short but the long handles should allow me to get down into large joints. The slicks I have seen are much larger than my Japanese chisels though. I am wondering if there is a significant mechanical advantage to having a longer tool with room for both hands? Maybe a framing chisel with a longer handle. 2” seems the most popular paring size.

You have a fundamentally incorrect mental model about what a slick is and how/why it's used.

The distinction between slicks and others isn't directly about length or leverage, but rather the fact that they have a combination of blade bend and handle configuration that allows the blade to rest flat against the work at any distance from the edge, without interference from the rest of the tool. If you thought of them as the framer's answer to a cranked-necked paring chisel then you wouldn't be far off the mark.

They do tend to have large, angled handles, but they do so to ensure clearance as noted above, not for leverage.

[lowell holmes]

If you're interested, there are over 30 slicks on the auction site. :)

[steven c newman]

Sold these two items a while back....
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The corner chisel is a 7/8" PEXTO the chisel was 1-3/8" Van Camp, with a laminated blade. They were too big for what I was doing, at the time....
BTW: Corner chisel was stamped..P.S. & W......

[Warren Mickley]

I was looking at “slicks” on the auction site earlier. Wow, sellers are proud of those tools. I believe slicks, like Japanese paring chisels, are designed with longer shafts, so more leverage can be applied. Most slicks seem very wide for the joints I plan to make.

I am wondering what size, shape, handle styles, others find useful? 1.5” seems to be the most popular framing chisel size, though the one I won is 1.25”. I won an auction for a 3/4” corner chisel. I have large gouges.

I have Japanese paring chisels for paring. The blades may be a little short but the long handles should allow me to get down into large joints. The slicks I have seen are much larger than my Japanese chisels though. I am wondering if there is a significant mechanical advantage to having a longer tool with room for both hands? Maybe a framing chisel with a longer handle. 2” seems the most popular paring size.

The "leverage" that is helpful with the length of a slick is the fine control we have of the angle of cut. For a paring cut the angle has to be just right. We like long, say 20", turning tools for the same reason, having the hands far apart. The short "dovetail chisels" being made by some afford very poor angular control.

Generally slicks are around 3 inches wide or more and chisels tend to top out at 2 inches wide. For heavy timber work we usually sit on the beam when mortising, so a chisel over 15" long or so would be rather clumsy because it would be effort to get your arm high enough.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks again Warren,

The description you provide is much like Toshio Odate gives for the longer handled Japanese chisels. Odate also refers to the longer handles as a better way to guide the tool. I was noticing the much wider blades on the slicks I was seeing, some over 3”. i was concerned that slicks might be difficult to pare with due to the wider blade. I was guessing that, in addition to the added control and room for two hands, there might be some mechanical advantage that allowed one to pare with those wide blades? I am thinking about adding a roof to a porch area via timber framing.

Right Lowell,
I have been looking at timber framing chisels and slicks on the auction site, which has raised the questions in the OP.

Patrick,
My inquiry above related to the greater width of slicks and was not meant to imply anything in terms of what these tools are designed to do. Slicks tend to be expensive, compared to the “smaller” other timber framing chisels. I was hoping to get comments on specific work people use slicks for.

[Jeff Heath]

I am wondering what size, shape, handle styles, others find useful? 1.5” seems to be the most popular framing chisel size, though the one I won is 1.25”.

The reason why 1.5" is the most common size is because in traditional timberframing, 1.5" is the width of almost all mortise/tenon work.

As far as "slicks" are concerned, I find that a 3" to 3.5" width would be ideal. Slicks, unlike bench, firmer, or timber framing chisels, have a "bent" handle construction so that the long handle bends up away from the work. They are usually in the neighborhood of 25" to 30" long, with handle, and were designed with the idea of using one's shoulder/body behind the chisel for force. Not a tool for smacking with a mallet, but more of a forceful paring tool. Ideal for cleaning up the sides of large mortises and tenons, as well as larger scarf joints, etc.....working down to your lines. In capable hands, as effective as a plane for quick stock removal to flatten or clean up a surface for fitment.