Three-leg bar stool

[Derek Cohen]

Question: for a three-leg bar Windsor style stool, would you place the single leg at the front or rear, and why?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chet R Parks]

In the front because if you lean right front or left front and lose balance you will lean into the bar/counter as opposed to falling backwards if the single leg was in the back???

[Richard Line]

An interesting question. I have been thinking about making a 3 leg stool (not bar height) and thought there should be 1 leg in the front and 2 in the back, using similar thinking as Chet. When your question came in I started thinking again about this question. A Google search on 3 leg bar stools shown most of those with a back having the single leg at the back. That got me thinking about the stability when getting on and off the stool and that seems to be better with the 2 legs in the front. Also would there be a foot rest if there is only a single leg in the front, and if so, how would that effect the stability when getting on and off. For a standard height stool (16" high) the question is less important as the sitter has 2 legs on the ground to aid stability.

The leg or legs in the back should probably be splayed out more than the front leg(s) if there is a back to lean into.

All things considered, I'd probably make the 3 legged windsor bar stool with 4 legs, just because of these questions.

[James Pallas]

Derek, if you put them on the front less chance of someone toppling unless they take everyone, like dominos. Also when someone arises the stool will be more likely to go backwards and topple itself. If on the back most of this is mitigated. IMHO three legs are bad for inside, but good for outside on unlevel surface, i.e. Milking stool or camp stool, low to the earth. Of course you may fall up at your position on the earth:).
Jim

[Chet R Parks]

James, you have a good point about being inside or outside. My main concern was if I fell backwards I might lose my drink.

[steven c newman]

376213
Meh...

[Prashun Patel]

+1 on Chet's response.

Your legs become the emergency supports and are more appropriately located this way, between the front leg and each rear leg.

The downside is that the user straddles the front leg and cannot rest their legs on the stretcher without spreading their knees. This is an issue for a tall bar stool where the user feet do not reach the floor.

If you have confidence in your splay and don't believe stability to be an issue, then I would keep the leg at the back.

[Chet R Parks]

I'll admit that I've sat on a few 4 legged bar stools back in the day and have always rotated the stool so one leg was to the front so it was easy to rest my feet on the stretcher/foot rest rather then trying to squeeze my 2 big feet in-between 2 of the legs. After all, how large can a leg be that you have to spread your knees so far apart to straddle a stool leg, maybe 1 inch if metal legs or 2 inches if wood legs??? Admittedly, on a 3 legged stool the legs would be further apart, but still. Richard was right on the pictures showing 1 leg to the rear. Just a guess on my part but maybe that was so the pictures didn't look so busy with all those legs???? Lastly, IMO Richard's last sentence makes the most sense, especially if alcohol is involved. Just my 2 cents.

[andy bessette]

I would add the 4th leg.

[Derek Cohen]

Design Elements

I've been pondering a bar stool design and its leg orientation for the past few months now. For some years I have been keen to build Windsor chairs, and I recently began thinking that a way to start would be to build three Windsor stools - the stools are the last part needed to complete the kitchen I began at the start of last year.


Pete Galbert's perch stool would make sense if I was building a stool for the workshop.


https://s19.postimg.org/wmjbdq0ur/perchseat.jpg


This version is made by an Australian chairmaker, Glen Rundell ...


https://s19.postimg.org/czkwnp477/IMG_0432.jpg


This looks very ergonomic as it aids in maintaining a straight back. However, I want three bar stools for the kitchen, where one is inclined to slouch a little, and I do not think that the perch stool will work there. I like the look of three- as opposed to four legs, but this complicates the design in as much as how best to position the legs.


Pete also has built stools with four legs, and of course they are beautiful ...


https://s19.postimg.org/wrn2n6idv/PA210027.jpg


Of four-legged bar stools, mention must be made of Curtis Buchanan, who is a hero of mine and a doyen of chairmakers. As far as I know, he has not made any three-legged bar stools ...


https://s19.postimg.org/qa8rhpn77/5335944_orig.jpg


The granddaddy of the modern three-legged stool (in my opinion) is Wharton Esherick, who made the most beautiful stools. He brought together great skills as an artist (his training) and passion for woodworking into sculptural furnituremaker, and really was instrumental in help launch the era of studio furniture. I love the free-flowing lines and seat that appeared to have no specific side - however, on closer examination, they force two legs to the front.


https://s19.postimg.org/g2lmrc6dv/stool3_l.jpg


These stools have a irreverence that appeals to me, and I love the free form design. No one is the same as another.


https://s19.postimg.org/5ibp8ioyr/Esherick_3leg_Group_10in_4857_63860540-70b2-4fb5-ab63-569cb0edd1.jpg


My favourite image ...


https://s19.postimg.org/p06cogtmb/381e8120ccd5433b8677ac05c15debef.jpg


Eshertick's is a design that also appeals as often the stools in our kitchen are pulled away from the breakfast bar and someone will sit on their rear (the kitchen opens into the livingroom).


Everyone was influenced by Esherick.


Here is an example by another Australian, Bern Chandley ...


https://s19.postimg.org/50l56uc1f/Bern_Chandley.jpg


Nakashima's Mira bar stool ..


https://s19.postimg.org/hix59ojn7/4146653_s.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/ykpzbb8nn/image.jpg




I have spent the past 6 weeks (including a 2 week break overseas) gearing up by building tools (I'll post these separately). It's time to finalise the design and get on with it!


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan Hulbert]

I'm nearly finished with a three legged stool for use in the shop. I went with the single leg in the back to allow easy access to the stretcher for a footrest. Will have to wait an see about stability.

[William Fretwell]

Tall stools need a good foot rest to be comfortable, a back rest helps a great deal but if your feet rest on a thin bar they bounce around in discomfort. A good foot rest and back rest really require 4 legs.
It's more a question of how uncomfortable a stool can you tolerate because a tall three legged stool will be less comfortable than 4 legs.

A short 3 legged stool with feet on the floor has a chance of being as comfortable as 4 legs but not as stable.

For a tall stool the foot rest design would dictate the leg position more than stability considerations.

One of the few benefits of a stool is the ability to swivel your arse in any direction without moving the stool, your feet provide the swivel motion, fewer legs to get in the way of your feet are great; when the cow moves around you can swivel to follow it.

I just really dislike tall stools, always have!

[Jim Koepke]

One thing you may want to avoid is having guests ask, "how are you supposed to sit on this thing?" That would make me think twice about an extra abstract seat.

One thing to consider is how office furniture evolved. Three wheeled bases gave way to four wheeled bases. Then here in the states the four wheelers gave way to the five wheelers. Of course most taller stools have stayed with four legs since if someone is about to tip over on one of those the bartender usually cuts them off.

My solution was a one legged stool:

376276

Maybe a taller version could have a couple of pegs for foot rests.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

How tall is tall, William?

I hear you regarding the foot rest. I am planning to use the cross bracing design of Etherick on all legs, rather than the "T" bracing that seems so common today, with 2 legs at the front.

My decision is whether a carved Windsor seat is preferred to the more plain (but still recessed and bottom-friendly) Esherick-type seat, and whether 3 legs are the equal of 4?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Peter Christensen]

Time to knock a 3 and a 4 legged mockup together from plywood, lumber, glue and screws to see how one compares to the other. They don't have to be pretty or the same form or shape as the final ones just something you and your wife can hop on and off to see if they topple or kick out from under you.

[John Walkowiak]

A bar stool is typically tall enough that you need someplace to rest your feet. With that in mind, the 2 legs with the stretcher would go in front. I made a 3 legged Windsor type stool for my shop, like your first picture, to sit at when I can do something sitting down. Not quite as tall as a bar stool. It has a round seat. I find that sometimes I want to rest my feet on the rung, other times I put the "center" leg forward so I can have my feet on the floor and brace myself when working. The round seat also allows one to swivel around easily. You could make the legs, then try a shaped and round seat made of softwood on them and see which one works the best for you before making them out of hardwood. Maybe you will end up with several different seats! That would be a conversation starter.

[Phil Mueller]

Just a comment on the foot rest. We have metal bar stools. The foot rest is a round stretcher. It’s fine with shoes on, but very uncomfortable with socks or bare feet. Something about the round shape that is just putting too much pressure on one area of the foot. For my comfort, I’d plan something more flat...

[Brian Holcombe]

Bern’s design is really wonderful. I’d probably put two legs and the foot rest in the front. This design presumably relies upon the splay to become stable more-so than the determination of the front.

Are these actually bar height or counter height? Counter height is usually better looking.

[David Eisenhauer]

Round style foot pegs vs flat style foot pegs or full floorboards on a motorcycle will quickly tell you the same thing, regardless of the boots you may be wearing. Now as to the flip flop biker crowd...........no idea.

[Derek Cohen]

Bern’s design is really wonderful. I’d probably put two legs and the foot rest in the front. This design presumably relies upon the splay to become stable more-so than the determination of the front.

Are these actually bar height or counter height? Counter height is usually better looking.

I agree Brian. These are one of my favourites - a reworking of Eshelrick. The footrest is unclear - square on one and angled on the other. It is flat on the top, which Phil will like :)

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57a9660a8419c24f0cfae313/58e3417c17bffc42c052dec7/58e344eab3db2b46d45fab68/1491289337453/IMG_5708.JPG

His website: http://www.bernchandleyfurniture.com/#/new-gallery-4/

Nice contemporary designs.

Bar or counter height? Counter height is what I am working with. Why are they called bar stools in a kitchen? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

How tall is tall, William?

I hear you regarding the foot rest. I am planning to use the cross bracing design of Etherick on all legs, rather than the "T" bracing that seems so common today, with 2 legs at the front.

My decision is whether a carved Windsor seat is preferred to the more plain (but still recessed and bottom-friendly) Esherick-type seat, and whether 3 legs are the equal of 4?



While the Esherick design has a simple elegance the bracing is not a serious foot rest so as soon as the height lifts your feet off the floor you have a dilemma. A four legged stool can have ascending cross bracing to accommodate different leg lengths. This stool rotation dictates the seat type.
Bar stools at a crowded bar rely on a 'swivel' effect to get people on and off the seat and fit more people at the bar. Lovers swivel themselves towards each other as they smooch etc. Tall backed chairs with 4 legs at a bar are positively antisocial. One benefit of three legs is the close interlocking possible with two stools and the couple sitting on them.

I see little use for a Windsor type chair seat on a 'stool' unless you incorporate a mechanical swivel under the seat as many have done.

Given peoples different leg lengths four legs offer four cross brace height options but the three options of three legs may be enough.

For me the cross brace foot comfort is the limiting factor in wanting to 'get the heck off that stool'.

The taller the stool the narrower the cross brace as you move away from the floor footprint; unless the legs are parallel, which would be a disaster with 3 legs. So the taller stool compounds the foot rest issue, the floor footprint and stability.

If it's really a 'stool' then for me it needs to be as short as possible for stability, have a 'swivel' component for access and egress. Stools for lovers; three legs, close and sexy. The real dilemma......foot rests people can enjoy using.

[Jim Koepke]

try a shaped and round seat made of softwood

Is there any softwood in Australia? :D

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

Counter stools. :D Looking forward to seeing how this project unfolds, I've been mulling over stool designs myself for an upcoming event.

[Matt Lau]

I really prefer the original, both from an aesthetic and functional standpoint.

There's forced joint to fail (as the copies have the third leg support just into the crowwbar supporting the other two).

Still, it'll be interesting to see what you end up doing

[bill howes]

Another factor to consider is the height of stool users. Shorter users and children or grandchildren will require stability (perhaps flared legs) and a footrest for climbing up.
You might consider a footrest lower down ,with the stretchers closer to the seat where they are less likely to loosen with time.
Sounds like a fun project

[Phil Mueller]

I do like it! Of course, you could always make a few shapes and step on them in stocking feet to see what feels best....but even I’ll admit, that might be taking it a bit far :eek:

[Mike Holbrook]

The chair and stool courses I have taken all suggest making a model using metal/bendable legs. Schwarz, Langsner and Glalbert use this method to test out various leg and seat angles. In one of Schwarz’s new books “The Anarchist’s Design Book” there is a three leg chair, which he terms a staked backstool. Schwarz puts two legs in the front of his backstool.

”As my backstool came together I sat on it at every stage in construction. At first I expected to be tossed to the floor. That didn’t happen. And when I had my first formal sit-down in the completed backstool, here’s what I felt: stable”

” My front legs were planted over the front legs of the backstool. My tailbone was on top of the rear leg. I cautiously creeped my cheeks left. Then right. I reached for my fourth beer.
And.....nothing.”

The noteworthy detail here is that Schwarz’s feet were planted over the front legs and his tail was situated over the third leg.

I suspect the splay/rake of the legs and seat will have a major influence on how tippy the chair/stool will be. I have bar stools with four straight legs that are very tippy. We tend to caution anyone who attempts to sit in them to lean back only if they want to bite the dust.

[Derek Cohen]

I am not really concerned about the tipping risk of these stools. The issues are nicely discussed and demonstrated by Roy and Chris in the following edition of The Woodwright's Shop ...

http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-staked-furniture/

Look around the 8:30 minute mark onward.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Walkowiak]

My 3 legged shop stool is rock solid. It would take some sort of "accident" for one to tip over on it. Now, my 3 year old rambunctious Granddaughter could tip it before tipping a 4 legged stool, but I doubt a sober adult would ever have an issue with stability. 3 legs look great, and make the stool lighter also. I know yours will turn out great looking!


I am not really concerned about the tipping risk of these stools. The issues are nicely discussed and demonstrated by Roy and Chris in the following edition of The Woodwright's Shop ...

http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-staked-furniture/

Look around the 8:30 minute mark onward.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Great link Derek!

Working with models and resultant angles to get functional leg placement without the math.

Wish I had found this earlier.

[lowell holmes]

Also, it is much more difficult to level four legs. :)

[Stanley Covington]

A few points you might want to consider.

1. 3 legs are easier to stabilize on an uneven surface than 4 legs, but are uneven floor surfaces a practical concern indoors? If not, the most significant advantage of 3 legs is entirely lost.

2. Assuming an even surface, 3 legs are significantly less stable than 4 legs. Easily calculated. This instability increases the higher the stool's center of gravity above the floor. The seat is the heaviest dead load. But a person is a large and constantly moving live-load that inconveniently applies horizontal forces on the stool. Falling off a low stool is embarrassing. But falling off a high stool can be dangerous, especially for children with their shorter limbs and relatively heavier heads. And with fewer spreaders, children will have a hard time climbing up onto the stool, requiring them to create unstable conditions. There is a good reason few commercial furniture makers produce 3-legged bar stools. It's spelled "liability."

3. Even if occupants of the high 3-legged stool never drink adult beverages (whiskey and tacos?), it is easier to accidentally tip over a 3 legged stool than a 4-legged stool when squeezing between them, or when standing up from a seated position. You should plan on this happening, and avoid fragile edges on the seat that can be damaged when impacting the floor.

2 cents.

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks for the comments Stanley.

The dominant reason for using three legs is that it is a better aesthetic, in my opinion. It looks lighter and more streamlined than four legs.

The question is really whether it is a good move in terms of stability. Well, the information about centre of gravity, as in the video I posted earlier, seems to support this. I am building a stool to test out the design.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Tools for carving a seat

In the spirit of offering information to others who are also looking to take their first steps carving seats, I have a run down of the tools I have used so far. Not all of these tools are necessary, but as I am learning to carve a seat, I am interested in the tools that make this happen.


It is also hoped that others, especially those with experience, will comment on the tools - which they find useful and which not.


I shall return to discuss my experience of marking drilling and tapering the legs at a later time. That deserves a topic to itself.


In the background I am making a prototype three-leg counter stool in Radiata Pine (construction timber - dry and a little brittle ... but the smell when cut is strong!). The seat is 12" deep and 15" wide. The blank is 1 3/4" thick.


https://s19.postimg.org/n88u3tn83/image.jpg


Roughing out with the Ray Iles scorp: this is the only scorp I have used, so I cannot make comparisons with others. Apparently - I read somewhere - that Pete Galbert came across a vintage scorp which he loved, and sent it off to Ray Iles as a model. This is the result. To a newbie like myself, this was well-balanced and easy to sharpen - it came beautifully hollow ground and pretty sharp to start. It was easy to keep sharp with a strop. I liked the handles and the blades continuous curve (I've seen some, like Two Cherries, which are a curved square). It surprised me how it was possible to use this to make precise cuts, both thick and fine.


The Veritas Pull Shave is an alternative to the scorp, however I did not find it as aggressive. Instead it was more like a jack plane than a scrub - capable of removing waste but not cut as deeply as the scorp. I like using if after the scorp to refine the surface. It offered more control than the scorp. I am comfortable using drawknives, but someone who is not may prefer it to the scorp.


https://s19.postimg.org/7mrijvizn/image.jpg


I managed to find two cobbler (shoemaker) shaves of differing radii. These came with blades that were nearly worn out. They were reground and sharpened up. The handles were cut off as they were limiting the angles they could be used at. These shaves really surprised me. Dark horses. They managed to get into tight angles ...


https://s19.postimg.org/xib932sj7/image.jpg


The LN round bottomed spokeshave was used later at the front of the seat. This is a reliable, old friend.


These are two travishers I built. One has a radius of 5 1/2", and the other a radius of 11". The latter is to remove the hollows left by the 5 1/2", or where a flatter surface is needed. To be blunt, the 11" is overkill. I have seen Pete Galbert used just the one (5 1/2") travisher (made by Claire Minihan), and do so immediately after the scorp. As mentioned earlier, I am feeling my way ... and anyway I made them. It was just a little more time.


Jarrah and Rock Oak ...


https://s19.postimg.org/5d7zmqwtv/image.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/za47xzz1f/image.jpg


It was very satisfying to find these two planes working well.


https://s19.postimg.org/qrurtnd37/image.jpg


Lastly, the surface was finished with a scraper. This is one I made from the rear end of an O1 1/8" thick plane blade. It is prepared very simply, hollow grinding to create a fine wire at the edges.


https://s19.postimg.org/moeca3j83/Sharpening-blade-scrapera_zpslgrvfjha.jpg


That is sufficient to scrape and leave a surprisingly fine surface .... even in Pine.


The seat is still a work in process.


Comments?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[andy bessette]

...The dominant reason for using three legs is that it is a better aesthetic...

Form should follow function.

3 legs work fine on a very short stool, such as a milking stool, which is plenty stable and on which a fall is not from a great height. On a very tall stool, such as a bar stool, not so much. So I must question this "better aesthetic."

[Brian Holcombe]

There are some really wonderful four legged stools. These aren’t bar stools, but counter stools. Seating height is 12”~ less than the surface height. So a bar seat is 30”~ tall where a counter seat is 24”~. For reference dining height is 18”~.

Personal preferences or rather industry preferences cause these heights to vary. Personally I prefer 1” shorter than industry standards.

Given that Derek is making these for his own home, Id suspect he knows what’s in store for them. I’ll secobd Stan’s comments however and mention that new family members usually find the delicate things in a hurry.

[Patrick Walsh]

I don’t know,

I much prefer the low back black four legged Windsor style stool with four legs to the three legged Bern stool.

That’s me though I often like simple classic tried and true design.

I also prefer the look of four legs over three.

I’m also not a fan of the Bern stool however I like many of his other pieces.

[Bill McDermott]

How did/do cobblers use the curved shaves? I know you can shave leather but I can't think of a concave area that would benefit from a curved blade. I can't remember seeing scalloped surfaces on shoes. Maybe they were use for making the lasts?

Derek, nice exploratory thread here.

[Pat Barry]

I am not really concerned about the tipping risk of these stools. The issues are nicely discussed and demonstrated by Roy and Chris in the following edition of The Woodwright's Shop ...

http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-staked-furniture/

Look around the 8:30 minute mark onward.

Regards from Perth

Derek
As I recall Roy demonstrates a method to tell you where the center of gravity is if the chair / stool / table is tipped. The centerline of any two legs of your three legged stool is the fulcrum point. When the center of gravity goes past the fulcrum point then the stool will tip. The thing to keep in mind (obviously) is that having more splay in the legs improves the stability of the stool. Adding more splay serves to increase the distance from the fulcrum point to the center of gravity. The problem is that if the legs splay outward from the seat too much then they become a trip hazard or a nuisance. Making a bigger seat allows you to have more separation of the legs at the floor thereby allowing for less splay angle in the legs. Making a full size model and experimenting with it is the best solution. Therein is the problem for most hobbyists (non chair professionals). You don't have personal history of all these dimensions therefore, don't deviate too far from proven models.

[Brian Holcombe]

How did/do cobblers use the curved shaves? I know you can shave leather but I can't think of a concave area that would benefit from a curved blade. I can't remember seeing scalloped surfaces on shoes. Maybe they were use for making the lasts?

Derek, nice exploratory thread here.

Last making for sure, the cutting angles used for leather are much lower than wood. They do shape the soles profile with shaved but I’m not knowledgeable on the details.

[Derek Cohen]

As I recall Roy demonstrates a method to tell you where the center of gravity is if the chair / stool / table is tipped. The centerline of any two legs of your three legged stool is the fulcrum point. When the center of gravity goes past the fulcrum point then the stool will tip. The thing to keep in mind (obviously) is that having more splay in the legs improves the stability of the stool. Adding more splay serves to increase the distance from the fulcrum point to the center of gravity. The problem is that if the legs splay outward from the seat too much then they become a trip hazard or a nuisance. Making a bigger seat allows you to have more separation of the legs at the floor thereby allowing for less splay angle in the legs. Making a full size model and experimenting with it is the best solution. Therein is the problem for most hobbyists (non chair professionals). You don't have personal history of all these dimensions therefore, don't deviate too far from proven models.

That is correct, Pat.

I am in the process of building a stool where I can switch around legs: 2 at the rear/1 at the front; 1 and the rear/2 at the front; 4 legs.

This, hopefully will answer the questions. I'll post soon.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

And....maybe relate the famous reason there is always a brass rail to rest a foot on, while standing at the bar....

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, this is not a "bar" stool, but a counter stool for the kitchen. A bar stool is taller.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bill howes]

How did/do cobblers use the curved shaves? I know you can shave leather but I can't think of a concave area that would benefit from a curved blade. I can't remember seeing scalloped surfaces on shoes. Maybe they were use for making the lasts?

Derek, nice exploratory thread here.

I agree ,fine looking tools.
The cobblers shaves are also called heel shaves. My understanding is that the curved ones were used in the shaping of the side of the heel, which in handmade shoes has a convex profile. They came in a dozen or so degrees of curve. Cobblers also had a flat shave for tapering the edges of leather.
Bill

[Derek Cohen]

Prototypes for the stools

The stool is 26" high, and the seat is 14 1/2" wide and 12" deep. Eventually, the three counter stools planned for the kitchen will have a Black Walnut seat and Hard Maple legs.


The prototype is incomplete - missing the stretchers. These are planned to span between the legs, in other words, there will be three stretches (ala Esherick). They are not added in these photos since I was experimenting with the number of legs (and there is a limit to the number of holes one can drill before everything just looks like Swiss cheese!).


The model was made from Radiata Pine. That is OK-ish for the seat, but a word of warning - it is horrible for legs. The wood is soft like tissue paper and fragile. I would have liked the legs to be a snitch thinner. That will be possible with the Maple.


The seat received 8 tapered mortices: 5 at the front and 3 at the rear. I played around with the placement of legs - 2 at the front and 2 at the rear, legs in line and legs wider at the front, 1 leg at the front and 1 leg at the rear. At the end it came down to four legs vs 3 legs.


I showed the four-legged version to my wife first ...


https://s19.postimg.org/g2zi7j4mr/7a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/kovmfvig3/6a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/7xhg9d0yb/5a.jpg


Then I showed her the three-legged version ...


https://s19.postimg.org/s4uw1nbab/2a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/7kq236ayr/3a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/l1n0m0qf7/1a.jpg


What do you think she preferred?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Pat Barry]

Four legs?

[Jeff Ranck]

Prototypes for the stools


What do you think she preferred?


Regards from Perth


Derek

I'll play. I think she preferred the 3 legged version - or maybe I'm just reading in my preference for the way the 3 legged version looks. There's a cleanliness to the design to my eye over the 4 legged version. The 4 legged version looks too heavy to my eye.

[Patrick Walsh]

Four legged....

[Christopher Charles]

Tis' folly to play such games...

Nonetheless....3

[Peter Christensen]

50/50 chance of getting it right. Both look good but the three legged one looks lighter and better to me. Me thinks the lady went for the three legged stool.

[Bill McDermott]

+1 for the proverbial three-legged stool.
I like the spilled soup drain holes. :)

[Hrant Manoukian]

Neither! She said she preferred the two-legged one while she was staring at you :)

[Chet R Parks]

Now that I think about it Derek in most of the pictures of your home and the furniture you make/design for it are light (in weight) looking and contemporary so why should this be any different. So I think your wife said, the three legs.

[Todd Zucker]

I'm gonna guess the one with four legs and three holes in the seat.

[Malcolm McLeod]

As I recall Roy demonstrates a method to tell you where the center of gravity is if the chair / stool / table is tipped. The centerline of any two legs of your three legged stool is the fulcrum point. When the center of gravity goes past the fulcrum point then the stool will tip. The thing to keep in mind (obviously) is that having more splay in the legs improves the stability of the stool. Adding more splay serves to increase the distance from the fulcrum point to the center of gravity. The problem is that if the legs splay outward from the seat too much then they become a trip hazard or a nuisance. Making a bigger seat allows you to have more separation of the legs at the floor thereby allowing for less splay angle in the legs. Making a full size model and experimenting with it is the best solution. Therein is the problem for most hobbyists (non chair professionals). You don't have personal history of all these dimensions therefore, don't deviate too far from proven models.

I'll stay out of the design review (!4!), but stick with Pat here. It's simple dyna-statical-cypher-empiri-neering.

I built a 3-leg baptismal font, around a large glass bowl. I was very concerned about how tippy it is. As Mr. Roy's video points out, if the stool tips past the 'plumb line', it goes over (all due respect, it is a rather pointless demo - who sits in a stool at that angle? They will have hit the 'eject' button long before.) But more importantly, as Pat points out, if the user's center of gravity shifts outside the fulcrum, they are going over too. Even if the stool was flat on the floor.

I'd want to prototype this, but it seems intuitive to me that the safest setup is the 'single' leg to the front-center, with paired-legs to the rear. Rationale being, that if legs are reversed (paired to front, single in back), and if the passenger is sitting upright or leaning into the backrest, then ~80-90% of their weight is directly on the single leg. Any weight shift to left or right, necessarily moves their CG past Pat's fulcrum and they go glass-over-tea-kettle. Personal injury lawyers, please have a seat ...right here.;)

At least with the single leg forward, they can catch themselves. I'm betting Nakashima found this acceptable in his designs above...?

[brian noel]

I have a few shop stools that my son has made me and one has the scooped seat, the other a more bike seat approach. I like and use them both and as far as comfort it is really hard to draw a conclusion of what is more comfortable. Funny enough one has the T stretchers and the other the three spindle approach. Stools just don't "hold" the body like a chair, so they don't follow the same comfort criteria and a seat that somewhat fits the buns works good. So a lot said, but no conclusion. I prefer a blend of windsor/shaped seat and Bern has something going with his stretcher layout.

[lowell holmes]

I think Derek needs to post a picture of his tool box. :)

[Jeff Ranck]

OK Derek, fess up. Which did she prefer?

[lowell holmes]

Derek,
Can I copy your design? It would be a fun project.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Lowell

You are more than welcome to copy it all ... it is not original. As much as I like to have my stamp on what I make, I am a beginner with Windsor designs and styles, and am stepping in the footprints of others. I post my stuff because I believe that there are others - like yourself - also feeling their way here. We all need as much guidance as possible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

OK Derek, fess up. Which did she prefer?

Hi Jeff

She preferred the three-legged stool ... said the 4-legged version was ho-hum.

I am in the process of completing the prototype stool, and then will post a few pictures, as well as describe what I found useful and helpful.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Ranck]

Can't wait to see them finished. Your projects are always so fun to watch.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Jeff. I need to finish up the prototype. I must have re-built it three or four times now.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Prototype completed!

The seat went through at least 4 re-builds. It looks like Swiss cheese (with the holes plugged) as the rake and splay were modified a few times. In the end I preferred 11 degrees rake front-and back with 10 degrees of splay on the front legs.


https://s19.postimg.org/t112fw64z/1.1a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/ie79ai8ab/image.jpg


To answer the question which leg preference my wife had, it was the 3-legged stool. The 4-legged was "too much like a stool". :\


The other question was whether 3 legs would be stable. The short answer is I could dance on this stool and it will not tip over. Solid.


All the legs were tied together with stretchers that had wedged through mortice-and-tenons. The leg-into-seat were tapered at 7 degrees. The stretchers-into-stretchers were straight. All tenons ended at 5/8".


https://s19.postimg.org/makl6hlk3/image.jpg


I spent some time comparing the 7 degree reamer and tenon rounder (taperer) I made versus the 12 degree versions from Veritas. I shall post pictures at another time. What I can say is that - in my short experience! - is that the Veritas tools worked amazingly well. Mine worked well too - slower, which is a good thing when you are needing to be careful. Nevertheless, I ended up using my tools as I found the 12 degree taper was not as secure as the 7 degree taper. It would be great is Lee Valley offered these tools in 6 degrees (my tools aimed at 6 degrees but I managed 7 degrees).


The prototype ended like this ...


https://s19.postimg.org/phf4q3yab/image.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/eulbkoif7/2.1a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/o2dk1dhrn/image.jpg


In the end, my wife decided that this design was "ho-hum" ... just not in keeping enough with the more modern designs I build. :O


So back to the drawing board!


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with your wife, but I think this is a fine looking stool. I have a couple comments on what I'd like to see:

Sharper arris at the peak between the leg hollows.

An inside curve on the front lip.

Rounded bottoms on the feet.

A leg profile closer to that of Esherick, Bern or Nakashima. Most do not seem to do that inside curve very aggressively, it seems very light or an outside curve (at the bottom of the leg) also the profiles are longer sweeping.

[Pat Barry]

Prototype completed!

The seat went through at least 4 re-builds. It looks like Swiss cheese (with the holes plugged) as the rake and splay were modified a few times. In the end I preferred 11 degrees rake front-and back with 10 degrees of splay on the front legs.


https://s19.postimg.org/t112fw64z/1.1a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/ie79ai8ab/image.jpg


To answer the question which leg preference my wife had, it was the 3-legged stool. The 4-legged was "too much like a stool". :\


The other question was whether 3 legs would be stable. The short answer is I could dance on this stool and it will not tip over. Solid.

6
All the legs were tied together with stretchers that had wedged through mortice-and-tenons. The leg-into-seat were tapered at 7 degrees. The stretchers-into-stretchers were straight. All tenons ended at 5/8".


https://s19.postimg.org/makl6hlk3/image.jpg


I spent some time comparing the 7 degree reamer and tenon rounder (taperer) I made versus the 12 degree versions from Veritas. I shall post pictures at another time. What I can say is that - in my short experience! - is that the Veritas tools worked amazingly well. Mine worked well too - slower, which is a good thing when you are needing to be careful. Nevertheless, I ended up using my tools as I found the 12 degree taper was not as secure as the 7 degree taper. It would be great is Lee Valley offered these tools in 6 degrees (my tools aimed at 6 degrees but I managed 7 degrees).


The prototype ended like this ...


https://s19.postimg.org/phf4q3yab/image.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/eulbkoif7/2.1a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/o2dk1dhrn/image.jpg


In the end, my wife decided that this design was "ho-hum" ... just not in keeping enough with the more modern designs I build. :O


So back to the drawing board!


Regards from Perth


Derek
Tough customer you have there!

[Derek Cohen]

I agree with your wife, but I think this is a fine looking stool. I have a couple comments on what I'd like to see:

Sharper arris at the peak between the leg hollows.

An inside curve on the front lip.

Rounded bottoms on the feet.

A leg profile closer to that of Esherick, Bern or Nakashima. Most do not seem to do that inside curve very aggressively, it seems very light or an outside curve (at the bottom of the leg) also the profiles are longer sweeping.

Those are excellent observations, Brian. And I agree with all. This was just a prototype, so I did not fuss too much with details - the feet have not been scribed.

I like the Esherick style in a stool. Not sure if this is what my wife wants ... I show her designs, and she goes "yes" - but she does not get the "feel" until I build one!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Agreed, sometimes 'yes or no' feedback is no help at all, but of course it is needed. I think I drove my wife nuts with my armchair design but when I did finally get a yes I had a feeling I was truly in the right direction.

[bill howes]

Derek
It seems that your design faces the tension between the mechanical simplicity of the windsor design- 3 or 4 sticks tenoned through a board a board with stretchers, and flowing lines where upright meets horizontal.
Some like Maloof, Thomas Otter change the nature of the joint into the seat but to me that loses the delight in the pure mechanical simplicity of the Windsor design.

377719
Others make the seat triangular to bring the legs closer to the edge of the seat visually
377721
I like your seat and think when it is a darker wood it will be pleasing. I think the legs might go closer to the edge in a hardwood

You could minimize the impact of the stretchers by decreasing the diameter of the front to back stretcher and slanting it up so that it enters the back leg at a right angle. And perhaps the same dark wood for the foot rest. I like the curve in Jonathan Otters footrest
Just some thoughts
Love the thread
Bill Howes

[Prashun Patel]

Why do they have to match? Make a mix of three and four leg stools. They are both great.

[Matt Lau]

looks really nice!

[Derek Cohen]

Why do they have to match? Make a mix of three and four leg stools. They are both great.

Prashun, I am going to make a "Esherick" stool. I love the irreverence of the seat. One can have seats of different shapes, letting the figure speak. We'll see what my wife has to say. I am going to do it in Black Walnut (seat) and Hard Maple (legs). I may play with the (3) stretchers and use them to create a slightly different look.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the drilling of the mortices ...


The stretcher is placed in a set of holders (the jig is Pete Galbert's work) which are held in a vice ...


https://s19.postimg.org/vs4pvb76r/Drilling1.1a.jpg


https://s19.postimg.org/qth7grnyb/Drilling1a.jpg


Not the blue tape with the "line". That is the orientation for the mortice. I arrived at this by using a spirit level, and simply marked a line along it.


Next is to orientate the stretcher so that the line is vertical ...


https://s19.postimg.org/hygd696vn/Drilling2a.jpg


A square guides the brace and bit ...


https://s19.postimg.org/h8xktwthf/Drilling3.1a.jpg


I am using Owl bits here (purchased from Lee Valley, made in Japan). There have three cutting edges rather than the two of the Jennings I usually use.


https://s19.postimg.org/pefms2pg3/Drilling4a.jpg


They create very clean holes ...


https://s19.postimg.org/xjxoq7y9f/Drilling3a.jpg


As always, drill until the lead screw pokes out from the other side, then turn it over and complete the mortice from the rear.


A tip using braces and bits in hard wood. Drill a pilot hole (1/16" dril bit) through the work. That will not only guide the bit, but enable the lead screw to bite into the wood.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[John Kee]

Derek not personally into round legs but your stool form is pleasing to look at with the angles you have used. Possibly a look at square/rectangular/off-angle might bring it to more of what SWMBO is looking for. Unfortunately also exponentially more work. Look forward to seeing what you come up with in any case.

[Mike Allen1010]

Derek,


There are obviously very high aesthetic standards at play in the Cohen household. Your wisdom and experience is revealed by your decision to build a prototype to solicit design feedback from the Boss before starting the final versions - Arrrrg -- if I'd only known!!!


I plan to put your sage "strategery" into practice immediately for all future projects. Maybe then I'll have a better chance of a few of my projects "making the cut" so the Boss lets them in the house.


Thanks much for posting - I'm really enjoying your work and I always learn something from your posts. I think the Walnut and Maple combination will look great! Really looking forward to seeing your continued progress.


Cheers, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

:):):)

Mike, if I had 1/10 of your skills, I would not need to prototype.

I hope she is not reading this, but the truth is that I make sure my prototypes disappoint ... just a little bit ... then I get to try out other designs! :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Derek,
I am making Peter Galbert's 3-legged Perch stool. Do you find that your 3-legged stool is a little tippy? My legs splay to 10 deg when the user is seated, but it still wants to tip left or right.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

As I recall, the rear legs were 10 degrees, but the front leg is 16 degrees and shortened (the seat angles downward - is not level as yours is).

The leg alongside the sliding bevel appears about 8 degrees, not 10. That would be a significant issue.

The stool I made is rock solid. However, it is not a perch stool. The legs are reversed and all are at 11 or 12 degrees (I cannot recall off the top of my head).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks. The perch does tilt forward.

The legs to splay to an even 10 degrees when the user is seated. I will proceed and see if the stretchers improve this. This is practice for the Windsor rocker. Thanks, Derek.

[Simon MacGowen]

Question: for a three-leg bar Windsor style stool, would you place the single leg at the front or rear, and why?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Not a Windor style, but Tage Frid put the single leg at the back.

Simon