Turning from power tools to hand tools

[Bill Sutherland]

I have a Jointer, planer and drum sander SawStop to help prepare my boards for box making. I found I use my Jointer occasionally and then my drum sander to get to thickness desired. I wondered how many of you folks use hand planes to dimension? I’m thinking of selling the planer since I use the drum sander and selling the Jointer and use my LN 62 to edge joint. The 62 will do a ok job of planing to rough dimension and the drum sand to finish. I also have a LN scrub and router plane. What other hand planes do you folks use? I have a router setup in a nice table with all th Incra gear but I’m finding I enjoy handplanes. I could replace a lot of power equipment with planes and enjoy the process. Wondered how many of you build boxes with hand tools exclusively. At 74 I want to enjoy the process rather than worrying about what I end up producing. I found I thoroughly enjoy planing.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Bill,

Planing can be mesmerizing watching those shavings spill out. We have had a few comments at times about how someone got so entranced by the shavings they ended up almost going too far on the piece being worked.

Some of my boxes have been built without any power tools. My most recent box build only used a bandsaw to resaw the wood to a desired thickness:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750-A-Box-From-Firewood

With the #62 and a scrub plane, all you may need to add is something like a #3 or #4 smoother.

If you work with longer stock, you may want a longer plane like a #7. For me, a #6 works fine for edge work on anything that is four feet long or less.

Another plane that is handy for making boxes is a plow plane for cutting the grooves to hold the tops and bottoms.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Bill, how would you feel giving away both the planer AND the drum sander at the same time. Giving up only one does not change the game at all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Sutherland]

I’ve loved my drum sander since the day I got it. What would replace it plane wise?

[Bill Sutherland]

Thanks for the link to the box/Dovetails. I found after using my Incra LS and all the Incra /Jessem Router setup that it wasn’t all that satisfying and doing it by hand seems so much more relaxing/enjoyable. I sold my Festool track saw for the same reason.

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve loved my drum sander since the day I got it. What would replace it plane wise?

Most of the time after planing a piece it doesn't need any sanding. There hasn't been a need for me to purchase sandpaper in years.

As to what plane(s) would replace a drum sander:

376136

Any of these would help.

To make it easy, my philosophy is to have at least one of each.

jtk

[Bill Sutherland]

LOL My wife accuses me of being a tool collector but you’re inspiring me to a whole new level.

[Jim Koepke]

LOL My wife accuses me of being a tool collector but you’re inspiring me to a whole new level.

Compared to some my accumulation is just a good start. Often when something comes along to tickle my fancy there is a flurry of activity selling off extras to raise money for the shiny new toy. Buy 'em low, fix 'em, use 'em and then sell them to raise money when needed.

Often to get the wife on board while perusing a tool in a shop or wherever a tool is found she is told, "this one could be sold for more than this," but only if it can.

jtk

[Bill Sutherland]

Another plane that is handy for making boxes is a plow plane for cutting the grooves to hold the tops and bottoms

Any recommendations on a good ploug plane?

[Mark Rainey]

I used hand tools to mill rough cut lumber to finished dimensions for years. I loved planing for hours in pouring sweat up to my ankles in shavings. As I get older the heavy thicknessing is not much fun anymore. I am glad I have my DeWalt 735 planer. I would enjoy planing but keep some power back up in case you just get tired of the bull work or get a sore muscle.

[Brandon Speaks]

I started really diving into hand tools recently. I had done carving and stuff like that but had not used a plane in ages. My band saw, table saw, router, sanders, etc had always seen the bulk of the other work. In December I finished a wooden board game project and the part that bugged me is the edges rounded over on the router just didnt look how I wanted, by chance a few days later i found an old hand plane that I had bought somewhere years ago for nearly nothing and for some reason sharpened the iron and started playing with it. Darned if within a few minutes I had the scrap piece rounded over the way I wanted with the plane and without the tool marks.

So I dug out any hand tools I had and bought a few more and challenged myself to ask "can I do this with a hand tool" before going to any power tool. A universal advantage I expected here is less noise, lest dust (also allowing me to use the basement shop instead of the garage shop). An unexpected benefit is that many times it seems quicker and easier.

Need to bread down a few 2x4s, they are cut with a handsaw quicker than I could have gotten out and set up a circular saw or miter saw. Quick smoothing plane or card scraper had it done before I could have set up the palm sander. Heck, I was building something with 2x4s where I wanted the round over corner knocked off and decided to use the plane rather than table saw (I never did have an electric joiner) and I had both sides done in 10 minutes. If the TS had not happened to be out already for a project it would take that long to set up, and nevermind that I would have still had to smooth it.

It was really a revelation that hey there is another way to do this, and one that is quiet, does not require dust protection, and is frankly just more enjoyable.

That being said, none of my power tools are going anywhere just yet. I will keep asking myself though is there another way to do what I want before I reach for one.

[Jim Koepke]

Another plane that is handy for making boxes is a plow plane for cutting the grooves to hold the tops and bottoms




Any recommendations on a good ploug plane?

That would depend on you and your budget. For a dedicated single purpose plane it isn't too hard to build your own. At the other end, If you can afford it, would be a Veritas Combination plane. For most of my needs on a small box or 1/4" groove a Stanley #50 works fine. For bigger work my choice would be a Stanley #45.

jtk

[Allen Breinig]

Bill
It is fairly easy to figure this out for yourself. Go out in the shop and unplug every power tool you have. Throw a board say 5'x6"x3/4" on the bench. Give yourself about 2 hours to turn this board into two boards 4.5'x2.5"x1/2" exactly. See how you feel about the process and go from there.
Allen

[Bill Sutherland]

Just said goodbye to my Jointer and the Dewalt 735 is next. Thinking of getting the LN 8 or 7, LN 4 1/2 and Veritas Combination Plane. What do you think? I want to do hand cut dove tails so my Incra LS plus router table and Jessem Lift and Incra Clean Sweep setup may be next on the chopping block if I can master hand cut dove tails. I have the Bridge City Tools JMP that I will use for dove tails as well.

[David Eisenhauer]

I found that I was not using my router table hardly ever, so it went a while back. More to create space in a crowded shop, but I find I have not missed it at all. As someone above said, I would lose the sander before the 735. I believe the 735 is a lunchbox type planer? If so, it can be put aside and taken out as required. Working rough timber from scratch obviously works but is a slower process than some folks are ready for. Have you tried what Allen suggested re turning one board into two? Hand cutting dovetails instead of using a router jig is an easy and fun step, taking tons of rough timber to a consistent, finished state is a little more daunting. I would go ahead and look for some joinery saws and chisels as hand planes are but one piece of the puzzle. Noticing that you have an 8, 7 and a 4-1/2 in mind, you may want to look at a 3 or 4 so that you have a narrower blade on hand. A 4-1/2 can be lots more work than a 4 to push (more so than whatever a "half" might be thought to be). A first step into hand tool working for many folks is to ease into it by using power machinery to help with the main milling and hand tools to perform the joinery and final surfacing with. It will all go better with a decent hand tool oriented workbench and a dedicated hand tool iron sharpening setup that you are not fighting when you use it.

[brian zawatsky]

I used to have a Leigh D4R jig for dovetails & etc, and sold it without regret the day after cutting my first dovetails by hand. Cutting DTs is one of my favorite parts of handtool woodworking without a doubt.
Do you have a quality dovetail saw? It certainly can be done with a cheapo, but high quality tools are a joy to use.

As far as the other machinery goes, for me it is a matter of the savings of time that a jointer and planer provide. I plane for finish, and have no problem dimensioning stock by hand that is too big for my jointer/planer. The real fun for me is in producing joinery with hand tools; you can keep the bull work ;)

[Bill Sutherland]

I have a Glen Drake handsaw plus numerous LN chisels. My wife accuses me of being a tool collector more than a woodworker and I would say she's nailed it. I found that once I had the drum sander (Supermax 19-38) I haven't touched my planer. I also have a couple of older Craftsman planes, one being a block plane. I've enjoyed using the LN scrub plane and the LN router plane and the LN62 has really been fun whenever I used it. I will try dimensioning a couple of boards and see if that is as fun as I think it is. I'm just not getting the enjoyment out of all these power tools as when I work the wood with my hand tools.

[steven c newman]

I currently have a thread going on, about a Step Back Cupboard.....mainly handtools....might be worth a read?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi again Bill

To be blunt, I would hold on for now to either the planer or the drum sander since you concentrate on building boxes, and these really benefit from boards that have been thicknessed precisely. Perhaps in time, when you are proficient with hand planes, you can give away the drum sander.

I could not get on without a bandsaw for resawing. Do you have one?

You will find that always everyone here on the hand tool forum also owns and uses power tools. My main interest is designing and building furniture, and machines do all the roughing out. My hand tools come out after this to do all the joinery and finishing - all the fun stuff! :)

With regard hand planes, unless you are very big and very strong, I would go with the #7 rather than the #8. Ditto a #4 rather than a #4 1/2. I actually prefer a #3, because it is more nimble, and you may too as it is a better size for boxes. At this point you need a shooting board and a plane for it - perhaps a LV LA Jack? Or something specialist?

With handsaws and chisels, it sounds like you are set up for dovetails, and now you need a saw for crosscuts. I suspect your GD saw will be too coarse for this task. Of course, you could just use your tablesaw for this. No shame there. I would.

The point is that you do not need to give up all your power tools. Using a combination of hand and power makes more sense to me. It is really about using the best tool for the job.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Sutherland]

Thanks Derek. I do have a 14" Bandsaw and I think I would keep the drumsander. I also have a Kapex for crosscutting. I've heard the LN 62 is very good as a shooting plane and you can get a frog for it from LN. I have the LN 62 so I'd probably set it up for the shooting board. I'm hoping to be able to eliminate those power tools that can be replaced by a hand tool that willl give me a more enjoyable experience. As an example, I have a great router setup but I honestly don't find much satisfaction/enjoyment using it. I have the LN router plane and the times I've used it have really been satisfying and enjoyable. Same with the jointer and planer. Yes, they get the job done but when I compare the actual experience compared to the times I've used my planes and enjoyed them, I wonder why I use machines. I'm not producing anything to sell, nor am I needing any more furniture for me or anyone in the family. If I was a good enough woodworker to produce quality furniture, I'd probably hang on to everything. I guess at my age I'm looking for the most enjoyable experience.

[Matt Lau]

I'm one of the less experienced guys here, but here's my 2 cents:
1. Keep the sander. If you work really figured woods or are ever thinking of building a guitar/ukulele, it will make your life much easier. While you could get a really sharp blade and overcome with technique (look at Derek Cohen and his Aussie torture wood), sometimes it's easier to just chuck it in the sander.
2. Enjoy the journey! I feel both types of tools have their place.

[Brandon Speaks]

It would be a tough call for me to give up power tools, on the other hand I make more than boxes and time at work limits lime in the shop. For any given operation it comes down to what options do you have to do it, what is most efficient, what will give the best result, and what do you like doing.

For example today I plan to build and install two shop made vices in a bench and also make two saw benches (the Mike Siemsen design).

For the vices one operation will involve squaring some construction lumber (dont want the round over that it comes with). The good news is that I have lots of options to do this but the bad news is that I dont have a joiner :)

I can do a rip with a table saw, bandsaw, circular saw, or hand saw and clean up the surface with a disc sander or hand plane. Or just dimension it with either the disc sander or hand plane.

The sander is out because I dont want to deal with the dust in the garage, this time of year in MN is not conducive to opening the doors more than needed or running an air mover to clear the fine dust from the air. The circular saw is out because to cut it straight enough would require a guide and on a narrow bard that requires a jig. The hand saw is out because that sounds like a pain and with my skill on a longer rip cut I dont think it would save much time over just planing it out. The band saw is out because the TS will do better and because while during the summer my TS is usually tucked away to make room for the mower right now it is set up and would be slightly better for this operation.

So I will either rip with the TS and finish with the hand plane, or just plane it down. Either is reasonable because it is just a couple short boards and my decision will likely come down to if I feel like a lot or a little planing at the time. If I needed 20 if them instead of two I would curse myself for not having a joiner and use the TS and hand plane.

The saw bench will be all hand tool even though power might be easier in some cases but just because I want to do it that way.

So I guess I took a really round about way to say that more options is better than less and lets you work how you want to when you want to. All of that being said if you know your projects and how you like to work and selling power tools will fund the hand tools you need or want by all means go for it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Bill, have a look at my website, the majority of the projects I’ve made are near entirely by hand. I have some serious equipment now becuase I’m setting myself up for chair making with scale and a short lead time. However living without power tools is both enjoyable and a wonderful teacher. It has been invaluable to me.

www.brianholcombewoodworker.com

[lowell holmes]

Come on guys, a died in the wool woodworker must have one of each.:)

Actually, it's good to have hand tool and power tool skills. I do. I don't like ripping long boards with my Disston saws. I have seven of them.
I also have four backsaws including a 4"x20" rip saw made from a Bontz kit.
I also have a Jet bandsaw and a 10" Delta table saw with a carbide Forrest blade.

[Oskar Sedell]

Why did you buy seven rip saws if you don't like hand ripping?

[Bill Sutherland]

I’m almost done taking down a construction grade 2x10 left over from a deck structure rebuild. It came from Lowe’s and is Douglas Dir. I know one thing for sure. I won’t be using a handsaw. I’ve been using my Scrub and my old Sears to get close and then finishing up with my 62. I’ve had a lot of fun. Somehow I Planed the second board too thin at one end and have almost 1/4” to plane down. I made a mistake and didn’t put a scribe line around either board.

[Patrick Chase]

Just said goodbye to my Jointer and the Dewalt 735 is next. Thinking of getting the LN 8 or 7, LN 4 1/2 and Veritas Combination Plane. What do you think? I want to do hand cut dove tails so my Incra LS plus router table and Jessem Lift and Incra Clean Sweep setup may be next on the chopping block if I can master hand cut dove tails. I have the Bridge City Tools JMP that I will use for dove tails as well.

I'd keep the 735. At least that's what I did.

Thicknessing by hand is hard work that doesn't add much value in terms of the quality of the results. There are a lot of us who joint by hand, then thickness with a lunchbox, then do everything else by hand.

I'd definitely lose the drum sander before the 735. You can get a better finish quite easily with hand planes.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a Glen Drake handsaw plus numerous LN chisels. My wife accuses me of being a tool collector more than a woodworker and I would say she's nailed it. I found that once I had the drum sander (Supermax 19-38) I haven't touched my planer.

I have to admit that I'm biased against drum sanders. Too noisy,too dirty/dusty, and they tear the living daylights out of the wood's surface. I can see why the SuperMax would be more productive than the 735, but I just can't abide it :-).

I did put a Shelix headset in my 735 FWIW.

[Patrick Chase]

[QUOTE=Bill Sutherland;2765229I've heard the LN 62 is very good as a shooting plane and you can get a frog for it from LN.[/QUOTE]

Nit-picky, but... Like most bevel-up planes the L-N 62 doesn't have a frog. The iron rests directly on a machined surface that is integral to the body casting. Perhaps you're referring to the possibility of swapping in different-angled irons?

[Bill Sutherland]

Sorry about that. It’s the “Hot Dog” that you can get.
One thing I noticed when researching the 19-38 was that everyone who had one made the remark that they never knew how they got along without it. I find I feel the same way. I find I can take two boards that are almost perfect in dimensions and run them through a few times side by side and end up with identical dimensions. To me the 735 is like a scrub plane.

[Patrick Chase]

Sorry about that. It’s the “Hot Dog” that you can get.
One thing I noticed when researching the 19-38 was that everyone who had one made the remark that they never knew how they got along without it. I find I feel the same way. I find I can take two boards that are almost perfect in dimensions and run them through a few times side by side and end up with identical dimensions. To me the 735 is like a scrub plane.

Ah, but if you're hand-finishing then a "motorized scrub plane" to do the drudge work of thicknessing is exactly what you want. Final dimensioning is done by hand.

I acknowledge that a drum sander can get you closer dimensionally, but the surfaces they leave are so torn up (IMO, I'm well aware that this is a bit of a holy war) that you have to do significant remedial work regardless.

[Bill Sutherland]

I guess they’d be pretty torn up if you were using 80 grit but at the 120 I am using it was really pretty smooth. Didn’t take that many passes and if I had a smoothing plane I guess I’d take a pass with it.

[brian zawatsky]

Once you start finishing surfaces with a smoother - or even a card scraper for that matter - a 120 grit sanded surface will will seem like the surface of a cinder block.

[David Eisenhauer]

I realize that you like the drum sander and that it works well for you. But, you have stated that you like working with hand tools and want to move towards doing more hand tool work and will sell power equipment from your shop as you go that direction. The reason the drum sander has come into question by some in this thread is that it is not a machine that fits in comfortably with a hand tool approach as well as a planer does. Hand planning after bringing your stock close to final thickness with a planer is fairly standard for hybrid (combined machine/hand tool) woodworkers. As Brian Z said, the drum sander will not leave you a satisfactory finish after you get up to speed with hand planes whereas a planer can always be used. Again, it is your shop, your wood and your $, so take our answers to your question however you wish. Main thing is, have fun.

[Bill Sutherland]

I find with my planer I have a lot of blade marks running the length and width I’d the board. This is seems to be common with the DeWalt 735. My blades are sharp and no nicks. My experience today was to use my Scrub to dimension the board flat on both sides and then use my 62 to flatten and smooth it. Worked well and was a lot more fun than the planer. I then ran it through the drum sander. If I had a true smoother I would have finished with that.

[Brian Holcombe]

Use a jack and try plane to face joint, follow up with a pass through the planer using jointed side as a reference. Finish up with a well tuned smoother and you will wonder why you own a drum sander.

Drum sand before finish planing and you will return to sanding. Embedded grit from sanding is brutal on tool edges.

[Mike Holbrook]

One of my reasons for using hand tools, is I can work at night without keeping the wife or other family up. I was using a 2” chisel to remove wood from a red oak log, requiring loud, heavy mallet blows. I could have continued work on a couple wood handles I am working on for the daughter’s cabinet. I could have plowed grooves in a 2x8 for a work table. Sawed trim pieces for the table top build using one of my hand miter boxes, planed chair or bench legs.....My dogs said to call it a night though.

I like breathing the cleaner air, and the easier clean up too. There is still sawdust covering all sorts of things, from the last time I used a powered saw for ripping.

[Patrick Chase]

I guess they’d be pretty torn up if you were using 80 grit but at the 120 I am using it was really pretty smooth. Didn’t take that many passes and if I had a smoothing plane I guess I’d take a pass with it.

Most hand-tool geeks would consider the result of a 120# drum to be a very rough surface.

Higher-grit sandpapers can of course produce smoother surfaces, but they do so at the expense of crushing and "closing off" the wood's microstructure. Only a clean-cutting blade can achieve a smooth surface while preserving the wood's structure and depth, though note that the difference may not matter with heavy finishes.


I find with my planer I have a lot of blade marks running the length and width I’d the board. This is seems to be common with the DeWalt 735. My blades are sharp and no nicks. My experience today was to use my Scrub to dimension the board flat on both sides and then use my 62 to flatten and smooth it. Worked well and was a lot more fun than the planer. I then ran it through the drum sander. If I had a true smoother I would have finished with that.

The 62 makes a perfectly adequate smoother when tuned up as such. After all it's "jack" as in "jack of all trades". The only substantive difference between the 62 and the 164 (nominally a smoother) is a few inches of length, and there are plenty of very well-regarded hand-tool experts who prefer the longer plane (not me though :-)

It sounds to me as though you mostly just need to pay your dues practicing smoothing. You might start by putting a ~35 degree bevel and some camber on your 62's iron, and work with that until you can produce a uniformly glassy, track-free surface in straight-grained domestic hardwoods. Once you can do that you can start learning the variations necessary for more difficult jobs.

[Derek Cohen]

I find I can take two boards that are almost perfect in dimensions and run them through a few times side by side and end up with identical dimensions. To me the 735 is like a scrub plane.

Bill, that is what handplanes do. And they do it better ... finished surfaces. Without dust and noise ... and dust.

You are planning to use handplanes to finish, so why not kill two birds with one stone. This is why you want to use handplanes, not so? This is where the enjoyment starts. There is no sander than can compete with the finish off a hand plane.

Personally, I would keep the planer and sell the drum sander. The planes will do a better job of removing waste fast and getting to a dimension without any rounded edges (which is what sanders can do).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Sutherland]

Yesterday I took Allen Breinig's suggestion and broke down one board into two identically sized boards using only hand tool. After a disastrous start with ripping via handsaw I started the dimensioning process with the scrub and my 62. I wanted to get everything done with the handplanes. I do have to say that I did get them "almost" identical but in the end I was off 2mm in width and thickness. In hindsight I suppose I could have butted the two together in a vise and planed until they were identical. Next time I'll do just that. Instead I used the drum sander to get them identical.
I was able to get the silky smooth result with the 62 and can see where sanding from that point would ruin that beautiful finish. My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.

[ken hatch]

Yesterday I took Allen Breinig's suggestion and broke down one board into two identically sized boards using only hand tool. After a disastrous start with ripping via handsaw I started the dimensioning process with the scrub and my 62. I wanted to get everything done with the handplanes. I do have to say that I did get them "almost" identical but in the end I was off 2mm in width and thickness. In hindsight I suppose I could have butted the two together in a vise and planed until they were identical. Next time I'll do just that. Instead I used the drum sander to get them identical.
I was able to get the silky smooth result with the 62 and can see where sanding from that point would ruin that beautiful finish. My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.

Bill,

Why the obsession with identical? Boards used for hand tool joinery do not need to be identical, they only need correctly prepared reference edge and face.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

[edit]
My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.

Actually after the dovetailing the boxes may be given a few swipes to remove any of the "proudness" of the pins and tails. This usually is done with a low angle block plane working towards the center of the box to avoid blowing out the edges of the pins or tails.

jtk

[Marshall Harrison]

<p>
Fascinating thread. I would really like to combine power and hand tools in my shop. The thought of using hand tools is peaceful and soothing to think about. But power tools have their place when up against a time frame that gets less with each pasing day. Or so it would seem. Disclamer: I don&#39;t have a shop yet and no clients. I&#39;m crrently planing and building a shop specific to my needs and wants.</p>
<p>
&nbsp;</p>
<p>
4, 4.5, 5, 62, scrub plane, block plane, bench plane, smoother, jack plan, low angle and high angle. Frogs? So confusing for someone jsut starting out. How to decide what to get and when to use which plane when you can&#39;t even speak the language. Dimensioning, roughing and smoothing are about the only terms I have understood in this thread.</p>

[David Eisenhauer]

Marshall - Web based woodworking "how-to" or tutorials (either full blown instructional treatments or quick You Tube videos) can get you started. Also, there are several decent books written that help new-to-the-hand-tool approach towards woodworking that are very useful and remain as reference material until the information becomes imbedded. Some of the web guys and authors are better woodworkers than teachers or writers and some are better writers/teachers than woodworkers, but all can help when you are just starting out. Some names that come to mind are Paul Sellers, Shannon Rogers, Rob Cosman, Chris Tribe, David Barron, Jim Tolpin and many, many more. Many of the above mentioned have slightly differing methods for the same task, but there are different ways to get to the same place and each of us have individual preferences as to which way we prefer. A guy named Chris Schwarz has something out called "Coarse, Medium and Fine" or something similar that discusses the (to Chris) basic procedure in processing wood for a project. Many folks have started with Paul Sellers' as their initial web-based instructor and have good things to say about his instruction. Research and get started. Have fun.

P.S. - Go the individual web sites of SMC members Brian Holcombe and Derek Cohen for their thoughts and many, many good photos of their tools and work.

[Jim Koepke]

4, 4.5, 5, 62, scrub plane, block plane, bench plane, smoother, jack plan, low angle and high angle. Frogs? So confusing for someone jsut starting out. How to decide what to get and when to use which plane when you can't even speak the language. Dimensioning, roughing and smoothing are about the only terms I have understood in this thread.

There are some great resources here that seem like they are hiding if one doesn't know where to look. One store of knowledge is the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

It is hidden in the "Sticky Threads" at the top of the Neanderthal Haven Forum. It contains some good starter information such as:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076-Getting-Started-With-Hand-Planes

For many folks needs the standard "set of planes" was a smoother, a jack and a jointer. Most often this was a #4, #5 and a #7. Most folks would add a block plane to this group and would be good to go on most projects. Some folks might have smaller hands and would like a #3 for their smoother. Folks with larger hands might like a #4-1/2 for a smoother with a #8 for their jointer. With the jack planes the #5-1/4 is a junior jack and a #5-1/2 or #6 is a jumbo jack.

A lot of what works best depends on the user. If one is mostly making keepsake boxes the smaller planes may be the best fit. If one is making large cabinetry the larger planes or a combination of sizes may be the best strategy.

For me such decisions are difficult so it was easier to just get one of each. In reality some of my planes have multiples in their size. This is handy for a plane like a #5, aka jack plane as in Jack of all trades. One can be set up for use as a scrub plane with a smallish radius to the blade. Another can be set up with a bit less radius (camber) to follow up. One can be set up with a rather straight blade for use as a short jointer and one can be set up for light shavings as a long smoother. The hard part is remembering which is set up for what.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I was able to get the silky smooth result with the 62 and can see where sanding from that point would ruin that beautiful finish. My disconnect is that once I got the wood to the silky smooth finish I would then start my process of dovetailing to create the box. Since most boxes seem to get sanded after joining the dovetails wouldn't this negate the silky smooth finish? If I was building furniture or just doing large panel glue up I could see the advantage of finishing with a smoother.

I classify surfaces based on whether they'll be accessible to a smoother after assembly. For the ones that won't be I take them to final finish before assembling joinery, and try my best to keep them clean. If I fail then I'll typically use a scraper to refine them after assembly (or maybe a rabbet plane for "simple" inside corners parallel to the grain).

For surfaces that will be accessible after assembly and where handling is a major concerrn, I stop short of final smoothing, assemble, and then take a light smoothing pass over the finished piece. I do this 100% of the time with box sides, for example. I typically smooth them with a #2 or #3 after I surface the DTs with a block plane as Jim outlined. It sometimes takes some clever fixturing/clamping, but it's worth it.

[Bill Sutherland]

I classify surfaces based on whether they'll be accessible to a smoother after assembly. For the ones that won't be I take them to final finish before assembling joinery, and try my best to keep them clean. If I fail then I'll typically use a scraper to refine them after assembly (or maybe a rabbet plane for "simple" inside corners parallel to the grain). For surfaces that will be accessible after assembly and where handling is a major concerrn, I stop short of final smoothing, assemble, and then take a light smoothing pass over the finished piece. I do this 100% of the time with box sides, for example. I typically smooth them with a #2 or #3 after I surface the DTs with a block plane as Jim outlined. It sometimes takes some clever fixturing/clamping, but it's worth it.
This is where I’m trying to get. Eliminating those power tools I seldom use or don’t enjoy using and building boxes and smaller items like that with hand tools is where I want to end up. After my exercise yesterday taking the boards to final dimensioning convinced me I could do it with the tools I have and possibly eliminate ones I don’t like. I didn’t realize that planes could be used in the final finishing of boxes. That’s encouraging. I won’t be getting rid of my power saws but would sure enjoy using different planes to get my boards ready for final assembly. I realize jointing one face and then using power planer to finish up is the normal procedure but to me it isn’t any fun and after spending 6 hours planing the boards to identical thickness I really had fun.

[Marshall Harrison]

Thanks David & Jim.
I'll check out thoe resources. I've got this book on my Amazon wish list - https://www.amazon.com/dp/1440329605/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I3JTVEA7UPDNOT&colid=3S2YV8IFUDOU6&psc=0

Hoping to purchase that soon and use it for a resource. I'll also check out more Youtube videos which is where I have learned what little I already know.

[Normand Leblanc]

...after spending 6 hours planing the boards to identical thickness I really had fun.

Yes, like many others here I enjoy hand planing and have fun doing it. I can't believe that I had all that dust/noise/danger around me before. My shop is entirely manual tools, no electrons.

[David Eisenhauer]

I believe working primarily on smaller boxes (at first anyway) may be a good way to jump into hand tools because the sheer volume of donkey work to be performed with hand tools on a project would be a lot less and also allow for quicker feedback on the effectiveness of your technique on the different tasks involved.

[Brian Holcombe]

Jointing and thicknessing is excellent training. You'll learn much much more about wood properties.

Make yourself some winding sticks and a straight edge. Make certain that you have a sturdy work bench.

[Patrick Chase]

Make yourself some winding sticks and a straight edge. Make certain that you have a sturdy work bench.

OK, so I have a long-standing nit to pick here. Winding sticks are great, and absolutely essential for long and narrow boards, but I see a lot of people using them in cases where they're really not the most efficient or accurate way to work.

If the board is reasonably wide relative to it's length, say 1/8 as wide as long or wider, then you can just check the diagonals for flatness with a straightedge. If the center and both diagonals are flat (or at least have the same concavity/convexity), then the board isn't twisted. You can detect VERY small amounts of twist that way, arguably at least as small as you can using winding sticks. Winding sticks magnify twist and make it easier to see by being wider than the workpiece, but they also add several sources of imprecision and variability.

[Warren Mickley]

I think you are making extra work for yourself by avoiding winding sticks, Patrick. We typically use the winding sticks early on the process to help make a mental map of the surface. This helps avoid planing areas that are low to begin with, saving both effort in planing and thickness of stock.

We also use winding sticks in making an edge joint.

Winding sticks are mentioned in 17th, 18th, and 19th century texts.

[Matthew Hills]

If you're looking for inspiration on technique and tools to get, you could do a lot worse than watching some traditional japanese cabinet makers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5pJxeT3rEo


to OP: I'd recommend storing any power tools you are considering getting rid of, and then doing the work by hand for 6 months... you'll then be able to confirm which path you prefer and regardless of future, will have learned a lot.


Re: drum sander... I've heard that it isn't a good idea to do finish planing after sanding, as the sandpaper will leave a bit of grit in the boards that tears up your fine plane blade. I haven't tempted fate with this, so don't have first-hand experience with it. Does anyone here have experience to either confirm or disabuse this notion?

Matt

[Bill Sutherland]

<p>
I do have winding sticks and a good straight edge but was so excited to get planing I completely forgot about them until about 1/4 way through Scrub planing the first board. I won&rsquo;t be selling any mor tools until I get the jointing process dialed in. It did get me going on setting up my sharpening jigs so I can quickly hone plane blades. Not sure what plane to get next. I have th LN Scrub and 62 as well as old Sears block plane and small plane about 9&rdquo; long from Sears that must be 40 years old but hardly used. I&rsquo;d love to have a LN 7 or 8 but not sure what&rsquo;s next.</p>

[steven mendez]

Man you guys sure have a lot of tools, electric and hand. If you looked at my humble space ( will not call it a shop yet ) a lot of you would be probably be going down memory lane. I do like to try and work with hand tools, and i think for me, the more vintage the better. I just like the &quot; hand made &quot; aspect i guess. But I do realize that power tools are a neccesity , ecspecialy for repeated cuts.

[Jim Koepke]

I've heard that it isn't a good idea to do finish planing after sanding, as the sandpaper will leave a bit of grit in the boards that tears up your fine plane blade.

Worse, the grit can not only affect the blade it can mar the sole of the plane. This would be more a problem with wood body planes. Anyone who dulls a blade should be able to sharpen a blade. It is the first rule of edged tools.

Most of the time there isn't that much grit left to do a lot of damage.

The point is if you are using planes properly sandpaper tends to not be used. Even 600 grit and higher will tend to dull a well planed surface. If a plane can not get a spot smooth then a scraper may be the tool of choice.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

OK, so I have a long-standing nit to pick here. Winding sticks are great, and absolutely essential for long and narrow boards, but I see a lot of people using them in cases where they're really not the most efficient or accurate way to work.

If the board is reasonably wide relative to it's length, say 1/8 as wide as long or wider, then you can just check the diagonals for flatness with a straightedge. If the center and both diagonals are flat (or at least have the same concavity/convexity), then the board isn't twisted. You can detect VERY small amounts of twist that way, arguably at least as small as you can using winding sticks. Winding sticks magnify twist and make it easier to see by being wider than the workpiece, but they also add several sources of imprecision and variability.

In any case, small or wide I would rather magnify the error. They also function as a straight edge and tell you where along the width of the board that the corner is being lifted. It takes longer to check with a single straight edge.

I can say from building the kitchen over the summer, small things add up quickly in terms of speed.

[ken hatch]

Just slapping a pair of winding sticks on a board can give false information if the area of placement isn't flat. Doing so is operator error not a fault of the winding sticks. A couple or three swipes with a plane should true the areas of placement.

I usually work belly up if able, find the wind and true it, true the edges, mark the belly and go it it. it is not hard and goes reasonably quickly if you have a plan. That said, it sure is nice to have a big planer for day to day prep but even with a planer you need to be able to quickly ready a reference surface for the planer because most folks have neither the room or money for a 20" or larger jointer.

ken

[Bill Sutherland]

Not sure I understand,”if the area of placement isn’t flat”?

[Patrick Chase]

Not sure I understand,”if the area of placement isn’t flat”?

When you use a winding stick you lay it across the board. If the board is curved or otherwise out of true in that cross/transverse axis then you'll get a bad reading. That's pretty much true of all measurement approaches, though - local variations can always muck with larger-scale measurements one way or another.

Going back to my previous post and its replies, you would be well served to listen to Warren. He has more experience than anybody else here that I know of with hand-tool-only workflows. There is usually more than one way to do any given operation, and IMO like most humans he sometimes overstates the advantages of his approaches w.r.t. others, but you can pretty much bank on the fact that whatever he suggests WILL work very efficiently and well. In your situation it's going to be a lot more useful to have such "tried and true" approaches at your disposal than to try to understand all of the variations.

[ken hatch]

Not sure I understand,”if the area of placement isn’t flat”?

Bill,

When placing winding sticks they should not "rock" on the belly of the board. Most boards will need a truing of the area where you place the winding sticks to get a useable reading.

ken

P.S. After posting I realized you might still not understand. Here is a link to a very good video on truing the face of a board:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=196&v=oEdgF8NDsB0

[John C Cox]

Bill,

I love my hand tools for small jobs, finish work, and work where the power tools are simply ill suited....

I dearly love my power tools for stock prep and hogging off material...

So for example - I would use the power planer to straight line stock - then use my hand planes to make the joint. Or the band saw to whack the end off a thick board - then square it up with my block plane and square...

Same for the drum sander.... Drum sanders are fantastic for cleaning up stock and thicknessing it uniformly... I dearly love my drum sander - and you will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.... You can then go from there with hand tools...

Thanks


I have a Jointer, planer and drum sander SawStop to help prepare my boards for box making. I found I use my Jointer occasionally and then my drum sander to get to thickness desired. I wondered how many of you folks use hand planes to dimension? I’m thinking of selling the planer since I use the drum sander and selling the Jointer and use my LN 62 to edge joint. The 62 will do a ok job of planing to rough dimension and the drum sand to finish. I also have a LN scrub and router plane. What other hand planes do you folks use? I have a router setup in a nice table with all th Incra gear but I’m finding I enjoy handplanes. I could replace a lot of power equipment with planes and enjoy the process. Wondered how many of you build boxes with hand tools exclusively. At 74 I want to enjoy the process rather than worrying about what I end up producing. I found I thoroughly enjoy planing.

[Bill Sutherland]

Bill, When placing winding sticks they should not &quot;rock&quot; on the belly of the board. Most boards will need a truing of the area where you place the winding sticks to get a useable reading. ken P.S. After posting I realized you might still not understand. Here is a link to a very good video on truing the face of a board:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=196&v=oEdgF8NDsB0
Ahhh, I see what you&#39;re saying now. When I placed the winding sticks at the end of the board all was ok. I do see now where this would become a misreading.

[Bill Sutherland]

Bill, I love my hand tools for small jobs, finish work, and work where the power tools are simply ill suited.... I dearly love my power tools for stock prep and hogging off material... So for example - I would use the power planer to straight line stock - then use my hand planes to make the joint. Or the band saw to whack the end off a thick board - then square it up with my block plane and square... Same for the drum sander.... Drum sanders are fantastic for cleaning up stock and thicknessing it uniformly... I dearly love my drum sander - and you will have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.... You can then go from there with hand tools... Thanks
I understand the love affair with the drum sander. It has served me well in the couple of years I 've had it and I just haven't seemed to have needed/used the planer. I will keep all my tools and switch my stock prep to hand tools and see how it goes. My experience the last couple of days doing a complete stock prep with planes was really enjoyable. I can't say the same for ripping experience and that's why I love my Sawstop!! I do see the need for a power planer if I was doing a lot preparation. I won't be using a jointer again after doing it by hand. Very easy and really fun.

[Bill Sutherland]

Bill, When placing winding sticks they should not "rock" on the belly of the board. Most boards will need a truing of the area where you place the winding sticks to get a useable reading. ken P.S. After posting I realized you might still not understand. Here is a link to a very good video on truing the face of a board:https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=196&v=oEdgF8NDsB0
I just happened to see that video this morning. Very informative, especially the part where he's marking the board and using the marked area as a reference to plane down to that level. I didn't do that and didn't even think about it but my board was not that wide.

[Patrick Chase]

My experience the last couple of days doing a complete stock prep with planes was really enjoyable. I can't say the same for ripping experience and that's why I love my Sawstop!!

If you enjoy it now you'll love it once you figure out some techniques to make it go faster.

Probably the single biggest productivity improvement for roughing is to be had by aggressively cambering the iron. You can remove a larger volume of wood per unit time by taking curved chips vs flat shavings. Your 62 needs a LOT of camber to be an efficient roughing tool because of its low angle. If you haven't already you might want to invest in a second iron for that purpose, and set it up with a ~3" camber radius (which will perform equivalently to a ~8" radius in a common-pitch #5).

The good news is that the 62 can do basically everything even if it isn't really ideal for anything. You minimally need it and 2 irons: A heavily cambered one for roughing as described above, and a much more minimally cambered one for jointing and smoothing. You can wait until later to add a smoother and a jointer (the latter only if your work is longer than ~30", if not then the 62 will be long enough in perpetuity). If I were mainly doing boxes the next plane I would add is a 3 FWIW.

[Bill Sutherland]

I do have the LN Scrub plane and it was a lot of fun to use. I even got my wife to try it and she enjoyed the exercise and results. She’s pretty strong but not very big so there was a little adjustment to get her body into it. She lifts weights so it wasn’t much of a problem for her.
I have heard the 62 is good for most everything but not great for one particular function. I may look at the LN 7 or 8 and a 3 or 4. I’d use the 62 in a shooting board I need to build.