Edge to Face Dowels, Allignment

[Mark Kristan]

<p>
There does not seem to be much that covers this out there, on this site or elsewhere, does anyone know of video links showing this procedure? I have 5/8 inch particle board (a TV cabinet I I am repurposing into a gun cabinet), I need to join the bottom and top edgtes of the sides to the insdie faces of the top and bottom pieces. I have the Jessem jig, it is calibrated in 1/8 inch but with a shim I am able to get the holes on the edges pretty well centred but I am not seeing a way to line up those dowel holes with the ones I would need to drill on the face of the mating piece. I mean I would use the same (1/16 inch) shim to drill holes on the faces of the mating pieces so that they would be the same distance in from the ends, so that the sides would be flush with the ends of the top and bottom, but I am not seeing a good way to drill the holes in the face of the top and bottom pieces to perfectly line up with the holes I drilled in the edge of the top and bottom of the sides. The jig comes with indexing pins (one for each, 3/8 inch and 1/4 inch - I have both bits/drill guides), and the drill guides have like a slot protruding from the front of it, lined up with the centre hole, which fits perfectly over a dowel of the size that drill guide is. Porbably this has something do with what I am trying to accomplish it. The sides are 15 inches by about 50 inches, so I am thinking five 1/4 inch dowels. Any thoughts on how I could line the holes up? TIA</p>

[Malcolm McLeod]

Try dowel centers? Use your jig to drill the side panels, then insert dowel centers (one example) (http://www.rockler.com/dowel-centers) in all the holes, align to the top or bottom, and strike to transfer the locations? ...Worked for Bad Dad for years.

Add: Or look at the 1st Jessem video (https://www.infinitytools.com/jessem-dowel-jig-master-kit-with-1-4-3-8-1-2-guides) at Infinity Tools (starting ~3:26). I think it shows exactly what you are attempting>..?

[Edwin Santos]

Hi,
I have the Jessem Doweling Jig and it is excellent.

So your issue is aligning the holes in the inside faces of the bottom and top. Are you trying to keep the corners flush, in other words, the outside of the sides flush with the outer edge of the top/bottom? If so, I'm not understanding why this is a problem, because whatever method you are using to locate the dowels in the edges of the sides, you would do the same for the top/bottom inside faces and the offset will be the same. I usually start by registering the jig from the back edge and then work forward at whatever chosen intervals. You can move position by registering the edge of the jig (or a spacer) against the last hole (with a dowel placed in it) or use the indexing pin in a previous hole.

If your holes in the top and bottom faces are far from the edge, then the video that Malcolm is referencing shows how to use the slot. Or you could strike a line 2" away from your hole locations and follow the spacing method you used on the sides as I'm describing above. The video can be found on YouTube also. I've used both the indexing slot and the 2" offset method and they work equally well although the slot eliminates one more opportunity for error so I guess it's the better of the two.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Sounds like a job for a biscuit joiner. Quick and easy.

[Pat Barry]

Try dowel centers? Use your jig to drill the side panels, then insert dowel centers (one example) (http://www.rockler.com/dowel-centers) in all the holes, align to the top or bottom, and strike to transfer the locations? ...Worked for Bad Dad for years.
.?
This is what I have used previously and they worked fine for my uses.

[Mark Kristan]

I guess the answer to my question is the only way to do this is using a self-centering jig. I ended up using a $20 Milescraft jig to try to centre the holes on the bottom edge of the two sides and used Miller dowels to attach the top to the sides. The Jessem jig is probably pretty amazing at the things it excels at but it falls down here in as much as it cannot be centred on an edge (the MIlescraft jig's fence can be placed anywhere along its path of travel). The main difference between what the dude is doing in that video and what I need is that in the video the edges of the boards are attached to a point in the middle of the boards on either side of it, so a mm or three, one way of the other, hardly mattered whereas I needed the sides and edges of bottom piece to be flush. I thought about using my biscuit joiner, not sure how strong a joint that would be in particle board and I this seemed like a good case for trying my hand at doweling. I did try using dowel centres and did not achieve great results, I guess I probably did not place the bit perfectly centred on the dimple made by the dowel centres.

[Edwin Santos]

I guess the answer to my question is the only way to do this is using a self-centering jig. I ended up using a $20 Milescraft jig to try to centre the holes on the bottom edge of the two sides and used Miller dowels to attach the top to the sides. The Jessem jig is probably pretty amazing at the things it excels at but it falls down here in as much as it cannot be centred on an edge (the MIlescraft jig's fence can be placed anywhere along its path of travel). The main difference between what the dude is doing in that video and what I need is that in the video the edges of the boards are attached to a point in the middle of the boards on either side of it, so a mm or three, one way of the other, hardly mattered whereas I needed the sides and edges of bottom piece to be flush. I thought about using my biscuit joiner, not sure how strong a joint that would be in particle board and I this seemed like a good case for trying my hand at doweling. I did try using dowel centres and did not achieve great results, I guess I probably did not place the bit perfectly centred on the dimple made by the dowel centres.

Is there any chance you could post a photo of what you are trying to join?

Every time I read your description, it seems like the Jessem jig should work very well so maybe I'm not following properly. I have quite a bit of experience with this jig, and really the only time I run into situation where it is not a good solution are those involving curves or angled joints.

Edwin

[Art Mann]

If you are serious about using dowels, read up on the Dowelmax jig. Their website explains how to accomplish what you want using their jig.

[Mark Kristan]

Well unless there is another way to do this that I am not seeing (and I did start off by asking this), the problem with the Jessem jig is its positive detents, the only way I can see to make this work is to drill the holes dead center on the edge; I would start by establishing what that fence position is I and drilling the holes into the face of the mating piece then put dowels in those holes and used those dowels pins and the piece on the jig (the Jessem has this piece as well, of course), to line up the holes on the edge (with the piece I am drilling into the edge of perfectly lined up with the piece I drilled into the face of). Thing is, to keep those holes lined up you have to flip that piece you drilled into the edge of 180 degrees, so the only way to still be the exact same distance from the edge is to be the exact same distance from both edges (the edge that the fence registered against is now the inside edge). With the Jessem jig set to 1/4" I would not only be closer to the edge that I'd like but I the side of the cabinet would not line up with the edge of the base (you would have to set it to 5/16" from the edge but it is calibrated in eighths of an inch). I could take pics if there is still anything unclear.
Is there any chance you could post a photo of what you are trying to join?

Every time I read your description, it seems like the Jessem jig should work very well so maybe I'm not following properly. I have quite a bit of experience with this jig, and really the only time I run into situation where it is not a good solution are those involving curves or angled joints.

Edwin

[johnny means]

I usually create a story stick type jig for these applications. Something like a shelf pin jig. that way i know my holes always have the same relationship to one another. Any jig that needs re positioning is susceptible to small errors, which are especially unforgiving with dowels.

[Edwin Santos]

Well unless there is another way to do this that I am not seeing (and I did start off by asking this), the problem with the Jessem jig is its positive detents, the only way I can see to make this work is to drill the holes dead center on the edge; I would start by establishing what that fence position is I and drilling the holes into the face of the mating piece then put dowels in those holes and used those dowels pins and the piece on the jig (the Jessem has this piece as well, of course), to line up the holes on the edge (with the piece I am drilling into the edge of perfectly lined up with the piece I drilled into the face of). Thing is, to keep those holes lined up you have to flip that piece you drilled into the edge of 180 degrees, so the only way to still be the exact same distance from the edge is to be the exact same distance from both edges (the edge that the fence registered against is now the inside edge). With the Jessem jig set to 1/4" I would not only be closer to the edge that I'd like but I the side of the cabinet would not line up with the edge of the base (you would have to set it to 5/16" from the edge but it is calibrated in eighths of an inch). I could take pics if there is still anything unclear.

Mark,
I think you are not fully understanding how to use the jig. Don't get ticked at me for saying that because I'm trying to help you with your project to the point of taking the time to simulate it to illustrate. See the photos below.

The maple piece represents your cabinet side. The laminated blue piece represents your cabinet top or bottom, the part you need to face drill for the dowels.
What I did is start by registering the very edge of the jig against either the front of the back of the pieces I am going to join. In your case I would start from the front. With the fence set for the depth of the dowel centerlines from the edge, align the very edge of the jig with the front (leading edge) of the workpiece, see the fourth photo. I like to have a dowel very close to the corners so I used the first hole in the jig (5/8" in). Then the sixth hole in. Then I repositioned the jig using the indexing pin in the last hole I drilled, then drill the sixth hole, move the jig over, use the indexing pin, drill the sixth hole, and so on. At the end I think I used an odd hole to get one near the back. So seven holes in all. Do the same in the face. I used a fairly even spacing pattern because I'm OCD like that, but you could use random spacings as long as you do the same in the mating piece.

The key is the jig is bilateral, the spacings are the same registering off the left side or the right side. The only tricky part is staying aware of the face you are registering the fence against because it will dictate whether you are drilling left to right or vice versa (again, this is why the jig is symmetrical).

Sometimes instead of the indexing pin, I put a dowel in a hole and butt the jig up against that. Or you can always cut a spacer of whatever length you like and place it in between the jig and a dowel (or the indexing pin) in the previous hole. In some cases it's best to use the centerline mark etched into the fence. Other times, on a workpiece narrower than the jig, you can insert the indexing pin in a jig hole and butt the workpiece against where it protrudes. Other times you can use the center slot to register to a dowel location. It is easy to adjust the detent so you can set an accurate offset, for example if you want an overhand instead of a flush corner.

Speaking of detent depth setting, since you're working with 5/8" material, I think the 1/16" shim and the 1/8" setting on the jig is the way to go if you want the dowels absolutely centered in the stock thickness. Usually I don't care if they are a little off center in the material thickness, but in your case at only 5/8", if you use the 3/8" centerline setting, you'll have only 1/16" of material on one side of your dowel which I would not like in particle board. Either way, if you want a flush corner your fence depth setting needs to stay the same for both sides of the joint.

I've done lines of 20-30 dowels and had them all line up perfectly, no accumulated error. I hope these photos illustrate what I am describing above. Dowel joinery is awesome. I hope this is helpful to you.
Edwin

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[Simon MacGowen]

<p>
There does not seem to be much that covers this out there, on this site or elsewhere, does anyone know of video links showing this procedure? I have 5/8 inch particle board (a TV cabinet I I am repurposing into a gun cabinet), I need to join the bottom and top edgtes of the sides to the insdie faces of the top and bottom pieces. I have the Jessem jig, it is calibrated in 1/8 inch but with a shim I am able to get the holes on the edges pretty well centred but I am not seeing a way to line up those dowel holes with the ones I would need to drill on the face of the mating piece. I mean I would use the same (1/16 inch) shim to drill holes on the faces of the mating pieces so that they would be the same distance in from the ends, so that the sides would be flush with the ends of the top and bottom, but I am not seeing a good way to drill the holes in the face of the top and bottom pieces to perfectly line up with the holes I drilled in the edge of the top and bottom of the sides. The jig comes with indexing pins (one for each, 3/8 inch and 1/4 inch - I have both bits/drill guides), and the drill guides have like a slot protruding from the front of it, lined up with the centre hole, which fits perfectly over a dowel of the size that drill guide is. Porbably this has something do with what I am trying to accomplish it. The sides are 15 inches by about 50 inches, so I am thinking five 1/4 inch dowels. Any thoughts on how I could line the holes up? TIA</p>

GET A DOMINO JOINER 500...AND ENJOY YOUR WOODWORKING LIFE!

At 2:02 of the Jessem video, the "doesn't get any faster or easier" statement is dead wrong. The Festool DJ is miles ahead for this kind of joinery. It is like saying it is faster to handcut half-lap dovetails for 20 drawers than using a Leigh jig.

Simon

[Edwin Santos]

GET A DOMINO JOINER 500...AND ENJOY YOUR WOODWORKING LIFE!

At 2:02 of the Jessem video, the "doesn't get any faster or easier" statement is dead wrong. The Festool DJ is miles ahead for this kind of joinery. It is like saying it is faster to handcut half-lap dovetails for 20 drawers than using a Leigh jig.

Simon

The domino is a very good tool, but sometimes budget is a factor. The original post was asking for help with a dowel jig he already owns.

His Question: Can someone help me with the problem I'm having with my Toyota?
Your Answer: Go buy a Mercedes-Benz so you won't have these problems and enjoy your life

[Simon MacGowen]

The domino is a very good tool, but sometimes budget is a factor. The original post was asking for help with a dowel jig he already owns.

His Question: Can someone help me with the problem I'm having with my Toyota?
Your Answer: Go buy a Mercedes-Benz so you won't have these problems and enjoy your life

I tend to think outside the box in my woodworking life.

One can sell a $200 dowel jig and put the money towards buying a phenomenal DJ (even if it is second hand) that will make the dowel joinery jig look like a kindergarten kid tool. Why keep crying every time you use a dowel jig while a DJ keeps you smiling after every assembly job? Anyone who has assembled a slightly misaligned dowel joint vs a domino with built-in allowance for "misalignment" knows what I am talking about.

Yes, I would recommend a MB over a Toyota Lexus IF a MB solved issues that a Lexus wouldn't fix. Of course, we know a Lexus is just as good as a MB and so I wouldn't make that recommendation...unlike a Festool DJ over a Jessem dowel jig.

I used to have a lousy tablesaw but that did not mean I needed to live with it for the rest of my woodworking life. Sometimes, fine woodworking is about knowing options and about cutting the losses.

Simon

[Art Mann]

I have a suspicion that Mr. MacGowen hasn't used a really good doweling jig like the one in the photos. It just isn't very hard or time consuming The doweling jig I use offers a lot more versatility as to where to place the dowels and how many you can use as compared to the Domino. It is possible to encounter a joinery situation where the Domino machine is decidedly inferior to an array of dowels installed with a good jig.

[Simon MacGowen]

I have a suspicion that Mr. MacGowen hasn't used a really good doweling jig like the one in the photos. It just isn't very hard or time consuming The doweling jig I use offers a lot more versatility as to where to place the dowels and how many you can use as compared to the Domino. It is possible to encounter a joinery situation where the Domino machine is decidedly inferior to an array of dowels installed with a good jig.

I have used doweling jigs, including shop-made dowel jigs using bushings of various sizes for custom builds, but have never tried or used this fancy one ($200): https://youtu.be/A3tE61O0zzk?t=20s

By the time the 8 dowel holes (in 3 rows) are finished for the first workpiece as shown in the video, I can tell you I would have already cut the 4 dominoes (10mm x 24mm x 50mm in 2 rows to be fair in the "contest"), or 2 dominoes (14mm x 28mm x 140mm in 1 row) non both mating pieces. Plus likely completing the dry-fit.

Give me a few normal furniture joinery examples where a DJ can't handle. Try doing a three-way miter joint with dowels which is a piece of cake (a little exaggeration here, of course -- just like saying the Jessem jig is a kindergarten kid tool) for dominoes. Or try this: https://youtu.be/GYW_9MgSp6Q?t=8m40s with dowels.

The repeat-ability of a domino joiner is very tough for any dowel jig to match. A DF500 is about $750 second hand; it is a much better option than a $200 doweling jig in furniture work. Not to mention that dominoes are practically a sawdust free operation.

Simon

[johnny means]

I agree, i can't think of any situation where a doweling jig of any kind, save for an industrial level CNC doweling machine, is superior to a Domino joiner. That being said, to many a Domino joiner is an entire weeks wages, maybe a mortgage payment. that can be hard to justify for those who can't get heavy use out of one.

[Edwin Santos]

I think the Domino is an excellent tool, no doubt.

I'm not sure how the discussion evolved into the Jessem Doweling jig vs. the Domino because they're quite different animals.

Look, I'm the last one to criticize a tool junkie, because I am one. I was just trying to make the point that too much in our consumer driven society is driven by buying a solution to every problem. Some of us old timers were taught that it's fine to aspire to bigger and better tools, but we were taught to develop our skills and make the most of the tools we have at hand. Sometimes ingenuity is the best tool of all.

I guess it's a bit of a pet peeve that often people post here looking for help with a problem and the answer they get is to go buy a bigger and better tool. That works out great for the tool vendors, but I believe the best woodworkers find the solutions within themselves first and resort to buying their solutions last. I heard that directly from James Krenov in one of his lectures. I think his quote was something along the lines that you can buy tools but you have to earn skills and it's the skills that make the woodworker craftsman.

Edwin