Hand cut joinery beginner

[Brian Eaton]

I'm new to the world of woodworking, having done pretty basic projects with a miter saw, circular saw, pocket holes, brad nailer, etc. in the past. With the help of my brother-in-law I made a jewelry box for my daughter this past November and decided I enjoyed it enough to dive in deeper. I bought a basic set of chisels, some supplies to sharpen them with (scary sharp method), a japanese saw, and a few other things and dove in.

I've been practicing dove tails on poplar blanks and have been struggling with keeping the angled cuts next to the line I mark. As a musician I'm familiar with practice aides (metronome, tuner, etc.) and decided to make myself a little template to help get a feel for the angle I need to cut at.

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It's nothing fancy, and I know I could go buy one of many dovetail guides but I spent my budget for the time being on some other tools so I made this from scrap. I don't use it to actually mark the lines for the cuts (I have a t-bevel and combination square for that) but I've found it very helpful so far with regard to getting a feel for what angle the saw should be at, etc. As long as I make sure my workpiece is square to my vice jaw

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I can use it to act as a guide for how to place my saw. So far, it has been very helpful and I'm seeing some progress in my cuts!

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As a musician and orchestra teacher I am acutely aware of the process versus product mentality and so far I am really enjoying the process of learning this craft!11

[peter Joseph]

Welcome Brian. You've got a great mindset that'll take you far in this craft. With dovetails, its just practice, practice, practice. Think about making an "Anarchist Toolchest" as your next project. It'll be a great home for your tool collection and require you to cut TONS of dovetails. Also, opinions vary, however, I believe its easier for beginners to control a western saw. Veritas has some great values, but you cant go wrong with a Lie Nielsen. Best of luck to you.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

I believe that a rounded woodworker is a better woodworker, that is they have all round skills with both machines and hand tools. There are some techniques that lend themselves better to one area than another, and dovetailing is more aesthetic when done by hand.

There are two articles on my website that may interest you in your pursuit. These deal with the use of blue tape when transferring marks ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m4f882f92.jpg

Half-blind dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Through dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

https://s19.postimg.org/uzv9e5db7/Lingerie_Chest.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michelle Rich]

Most folks when they begin (myself included) try to force the saw..try to let the saw do the work. When Lee Valley came out with magnetic dovetail guides, I spent $$$ pronto. The japanese saws are very wide and using the magnet helped me get muscle memory and made my skills improve. keep at it, and enjoy your new hobby

[Prashun Patel]

Everyone's going to have so much advice. here's mine ;) :

Take all the advice and practice. That is to say, the quality of the saw, the guide, the sharpness of your pencil/knife line, the tape, are all a distant second to building muscle memory.

Like riding a bike, eventually you get it, and then you almost can't make yourself UNget it.

I see you are using a dozuki. One neat thing about cutting on the pull stroke (at least with thinner boards and softer woods) is that you can do dovetails without a vise. You place the board flat on the bench and often don't even need to apply a clamp or holdfast. You can hold it steady with your other hand. This has the disadvantage of making you stoop down, but has the advantage of placing the piece at eye level. I find that this position is also ergonomic for sawing along two faces simultaneously, which (for me) encourages a straighter cut. Sighting like this has made (for me) angled cuts on the pins a non issue.

But again, with enough practice, angled, straight up and down - none of it will matter. Challenge yourself to build muscle memory: it is rewarding and makes you faster.

[Robert Engel]

University of YouTube!!

Paul Sellers, Garrett Hack, Frank Klausz will all give different variations on doing DT's.

I've learned a ton watching build videos where you will see various ways to do joinery.

+ What Prashun said. In my experience, you really do need the best tools you can afford.

[David Eisenhauer]

I like to position my tail board (tails first kind of guy) in the vise such that my saw cut will be vertical (plumb) rather than angled. I use the dovetail guide to adjust the angle of the tail board in the vise by holding the guide up on the top edge of the vise chop top and rotate the tail board to lay against the angled side of the guide (1:8, 1:7, etc).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I like to position my tail board (tails first kind of guy) in the vise such that my saw cut will be vertical (plumb) rather than angled. I use the dovetail guide to adjust the angle of the tail board in the vise by holding the guide up on the top edge of the vise chop top and rotate the tail board to lay against the angled side of the guide (1:8, 1:7, etc).

It was suggested to me that if you do this, you can first concentrate on learning to cut vertically, which can really help.

At this point, I don't bother to do it, but, I would for sure be more consistent if I did.

Your saw cuts look pretty good so far.

[Pat Barry]

Try sawing alongside the line, not on the line (save the line). The line will be helpful as a reference when you cut as compared to removing /erasing the line.

[Christopher Charles]

Be mindful, but don't be afraid to make mistakes. Part of craft is learning how to recover from the inevitable ooops moments :)

We'll all look forward to seeing your efforts. And (very nearly all) of us also use electrons without regret.

Best,
Chris

[ernest dubois]

The poplar would being so soft is not necessarily making matters any easier. Some wood that is consistent, probably diffuse porous like maple, that will give a bit more resistance and not dent so easily at the corners will help the finished dovetails maintain their crispness without having to compensate with excessive wood protruding in order to trim back to sharper lines. On the other hand the poplar does compress easily and allows you to oversize your tails but that may not work for you as a remedy with harder woods which will want a truer fit right off the bat.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Brian and welcome to the Creek.

Like the best dovetail cutting tips, the tools that are best are the ones that work for you.

Whether you cut pins first or tails first doesn't matter. If one works better for you, then that is the way to do it.

My most recent project was a simple box made of firewood:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750-A-Box-From-Firewood

Most of my dovetail cutting technique is included in that post.

It is helpful to see how others handle the process. Many people explaining the same thing in different ways helps one to adjust the process into being their own.

Your jewelry box project came out well:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260770-Bug-bitten-amp-first-dovetails&p=2759687&highlight=#post2759687

Looking forward to seeing more.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Brian,being a Texan, you might go to Homestead Heritage in Elm Mott Texas (near Waco) and take an elementary class in hand tool wood working.
When I went about 20 years +/- ago , I took a three day class where we learned to use a hand tools to make basic joints.
Now all of my adult children have rocking chairs that I have built.

OBTW, I took a rocking chair class there as well. That is where I learned how to make chairs.

[lowell holmes]

Follow up to my previous post. I'm not selling anything, just relating my experience.
IIRC they had a one day session where we were introduced to the use of a dove tail saw, chisels, and a mallet. In the next class, IIRC it was three days.
We learned what a proper chisel was, how to sharpen it, and how to use it. The chisels never see a grinder, only stones and strops. The chisels are scapel sharp.
The saws cut strait and fast. We learned to cut boards square, make dove tail joints and mortises. IIRC, we made a simple book shelf out of white pine.
All of the skills of a beginning woodworker were started. It was an enjoyable experience.
They have a small restaurant there as well.

[Christian Setla]

Robert mentioned a few Youtube woodworkers who have excellent videos, however, I have found that the more people you watch, one of them seems to turn the light on for you and suddenly you realize they are ALL correct.

For a fresh face who speaks with an accent, check out Matt Estlea on Youtube....

And for the "mechanics" of hand sawing, I quite enjoy the RenaissanceWW, who not only post videos on Youtube but also has a great blog on the net. Matt does too, come to think of it.

Shannon (RenaissanceWW) just had a live presentation on Youtube where he would take questions, and the entire hour was all about sawing and the causes of peoples difficulty with this chore. Not *just* about dovetails, but all manners of hand powered sawing. He seems to have the knack for making sense of things and even gives you tips on how to check your own sawing mechanics/stance.

Most people would simply say "sit down", but occasionally, you find someone who says the obvious: "Pull up a chair and sit down"! It makes all the difference to someone who has not yet mastered the basics, but once learned, all the other peoples instructions also make sense.

Regards

Christian

[Prashun Patel]

This post resonates with me. Well said. I too am a Shannon Rodgers fan for western saw selection and technique.

[Brian Eaton]

Thank you, everyone, for all of the feedback and advice! I am trying to absorb it all - I have definitely been watching a ton of YouTube videos by a lot of different people and have been trying things out. Though it won’t necessarily show in the photos I post below, I’ve been practicing straight and angled cuts on scrap and have noticed a lot of improvement.

I am using a Japanese saw and the biggest thing that helped was to hold the saw further back on the handle - initially i was choked up too much on the blade (kind of like you might hold a chef’s knife) and felt like I was fighting the saw. The second i moved my hand back towards the end of the handle i immediately relaxed more and had more control of my cuts.

Attached is a photo of the first and second dovetail test joints along with a simple box i made out of .5”x3” poplar. Still many mistakes - I have no idea how one of the pins on the box was cut so badly...it was cut to the line and I’m still scratching my head about how I mis-marked it... Also a few close-ups of the joints on the box.

Also attached, just for fun since they don’t really involve hand joinery, are some crates i made my wife for our master closet and a beer tote i made for my parents as a house warming gift since they just bought a new house.

[David Eisenhauer]

Those you are showing will work Brian in that they should not pull apart. As you continue to gain experience, you will continue to slide in closer to the lines when you make your initial cuts and end up with slightly tighter joints. Good stuff.

[Dan Hulbert]

Paul Sellers has some great tips for cutting dovetails. Along with lots of other tips on hand tool techniques.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Your 1 and 2 dovetails are kind of amazing for 1 and 2. You are obviously doing something right!

[Brian Eaton]

Those you are showing will work Brian in that they should not pull apart. As you continue to gain experience, you will continue to slide in closer to the lines when you make your initial cuts and end up with slightly tighter joints. Good stuff.

Thanks! Just trying to take baby steps!

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[Brian Eaton]

Paul Sellers has some great tips for cutting dovetails. Along with lots of other tips on hand tool techniques.

Yep! I've watched those videos several times already and they are bookmarked on my browser.1

[Brian Eaton]

Your 1 and 2 dovetails are kind of amazing for 1 and 2. You are obviously doing something right!

Thanks! The perfectionist in me wishes they were better but I know I'll get there eventually!1

[David Eisenhauer]

Almost all of the You Tube guys show dovetails - David Barron is another one.

[Prashun Patel]

Those are wonderful. If you sand and finish them, you'll see they look even better.

The thing to strive for isn't perfection of fit, but perfection of fit with minimal paring. So, strive to improve your saw placement and precision.

To that end, we make a big deal around the Internet on dovetails. But in the stuff I typically build, accurate M&T is more common (albeit less sexy).

If I could go back, I would focus more on marking, wasting, and paring mortises and sawing perfect tenons.

[Matt Evans]

Those are wonderful. If you sand and finish them, you'll see they look even better.

The thing to strive for isn't perfection of fit, but perfection of fit with minimal paring. So, strive to improve your saw placement and precision.

To that end, we make a big deal around the Internet on dovetails. But in the stuff I typically build, accurate M&T is more common (albeit less sexy).

If I could go back, I would focus more on marking, wasting, and paring mortises and sawing perfect tenons.


I completely agree.

I also think that Brian has done a remarkable job with the dovetails. If they are looking like that, and you've figured out your sawing technique, then moving on to a different joint might be more productive in the long run. Mortise and tenon joint would be a good joint to get comfortable with. Like Prashun, I tend to use the mortise and tenon joint more than nearly anything else.

[Brian Eaton]

I completely agree.

I also think that Brian has done a remarkable job with the dovetails. If they are looking like that, and you've figured out your sawing technique, then moving on to a different joint might be more productive in the long run. Mortise and tenon joint would be a good joint to get comfortable with. Like Prashun, I tend to use the mortise and tenon joint more than nearly anything else.

Thanks! The perfectionist in me isn’t quite ready to move on to other joints yet but I’ve been watching Matt Estlea videos on YouTube and I think, after getting myself a marking gauge and mortise chisel or two I may start tackling the joint frame he works on throughout several of his videos.

Right now I’ve got some thin (1/2”) poplar that i’m using to practice dovetails and turn in to little boxes. I’d eventually like to make a small pull-out drawer cabinet to practice rabbets, etc. so some dovetails may make it into the drawers for that.

I finished up a 1st joint for a second little box tonight and am much more pleased with how it turned out! See below for a few photos...

[Jim Koepke]

Brian, they are looking a lot better than my early attempts at dovetails.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

Plane your cutting lines off and then resend a photo. Bet they look even better than they already do.

[Brian Eaton]

It's been a while since I've posted on this thread and I've kept busy with a few various projects, all the while practicing dovetails during down time. My latest are here:
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I think they are by far the best I've done so far. I'm a perfectionist so I'll keep practicing these until I feel like I can be consistent enough not to get into a project, mess up, and have to start over with it. Incidentally, I took advantage of the scrap I used to make the grain continuous from piece to piece - not sure if that is a thing when dovetails are involved (I've seen it on mitered corners) but it was easy enough to implement as part of the practice.

In the mean time, I've kept myself busy with a blanket ladder for my wife (I cheated on this and used my miter saw and pocket screws). Finished with brown mahogany gel stain and several coats of arm r seal - aside from some blotching (you live, you learn) which doesn't look terrible it turned out very nicely:
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Not sure how to rotate the photos in a post - it is in the correct orientation on my computer but for whatever reason when I upload it turns it on its side.

Also, I have made a few phone cradles out of some scrap flamed maple I got from my brother-in-law (too small for much anything else). I dimensioned the material by hand but did cheat and used a router to chamfer the edges and make the groove the phone sits in. Apologies for the blurry photo but I really like how the figure in each one stands out....I'm finishing them in Danish Oil and will likely top that with a few coats of arm r seal for protection. The table top stand mentioned below convinced me for the time being at least to stick with non-stain finishes and just start working with wood that is already the color/tone i'm looking for in the finished product.
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Additionally, I've been working on a table top music stand/book stand - all hand worked with half lap joints for the center column & top and bottom and mortise and tenons for the smaller supports. I really enjoyed learning these techniques and feel like it turned out pretty well - I did practice each of the joints on scrap once before I did so for this project. It is currently in the process of being finished and I'm not thrilled with the stain which, as mentioned above, made me decide to stick with natural finishes - I'd rather work on improving my wood working skills at the moment than spend a bunch of time trying to figure out stain/finishes. Ideally I'd like to make another one of these out of some of the maple I just bought as I made this one mostly as a proof of concept.
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In the near future it is on my to-do list to try out shellac for the first time but my next project will be a split top saw bench so that I don't have to awkwardly rip lumber to size clamped to my workbench.11

[steven c newman]

Looks good to me....you seemed to have gotten the hang of it:D

[Jim Koepke]

It does look good.


I took advantage of the scrap I used to make the grain continuous from piece to piece - not sure if that is a thing when dovetails are involved (I've seen it on mitered corners) but it was easy enough to implement as part of the practice.


Continuous grain can add appeal to a piece. It is a good practice to make in to a habit.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Dovetails look good to me!
Your other projects are nice and very practical.
Welcome to the hobby!
Fred

[Phil Mueller]

Really well done dovetails, Brian! And pine isn’t always the easiest to work with. The wrap around grain is something I always try to do with mitered corners, but using it for dovetails is a great touch.

I’ve been playing with shellac for quite some time now. Search SMC and you’ll find a number of posts with great tips. A number of members here are very good at applying shellac. Practicing joinery and/or finishing gives a certain usefullness to all the scraps I just can’t seem to ever toss :rolleyes: