Butt joints for base cabinets, no glue

[mike waters]

So I got a part time job at a cabinet shop, very high-end actually.. I am just a helper and am only called for install work.

i noticed the construction method for the base cabinets (frameless) is simple butt joints, with 18 gauge staples (1-1/2”) and 1-5/8” Screws.
Stretchers on the top.
the back has a 1/4” panel that has sliding dado.
no glue.
box construction with plastic cabinet legs that the toe-kick snaps on.

he said he has never had an issue.

does this seem right?

[Martin Wasner]

So I got a part time job at a cabinet shop, very high-end actually.. I am just a helper and am only called for install work.

i noticed the construction method for the base cabinets (frameless) is simple butt joints, with 18 gauge staples (1-1/2”) and 1-5/8” Screws.
Stretchers on the top.
the back has a 1/4” panel that has sliding dado.
no glue.
box construction with plastic cabinet legs that the toe-kick snaps on.

he said he has never had an issue.

does this seem right?

"High end" is subjective. Around here we call that Ikea.

[jack duren]

If it works and you have a job it's good enough. A lot of shops do things different. I've worked for shops that used Senclamps..Wait....I have a Senclamp:(:(

[Pat Barry]

It works for them, after all, its just a base cabinet. Do they also do the installs?

[Jim Becker]

While I wouldn't personally build them without glue, it's a valid method to use the staples to tack things and then use screws for mechanical strength. Base cabinets don't get a lot of lateral/racking stress once installed, especially when the counter is in place and when they are ganged. The butt joint that's cut true and held tightly in place with good screws can be pretty darn strong for the intended use. But again, personally...I'd still use glue. Grooves and rabbits are very helpful with alignment/assembly, too, but are not necessarily required for a joint strong enough for the job.

[Wayne Lomman]

Mike, a job is a job, so if the boss wants to do it that way, it gets done that way.

The dry butt joint is ok. It works and if you have to do rework, pulling apart is simple. Installs on plastic legs are just rubbish however. No load bearing capacity at all. It time someone will be regrouting tile to benchtop joint and wondering why. Use the time to refine your skills and get paid for it.

I once worked at a cabinet shop where everything was built from half inch raw chipboard. 7 of us made 6 kitchens a day for installation in public housing. They were rubbish BUT that was the government specification. I only worked there 6 months before a bushfire levelled the place but I learned to manage time and how to get the best out of mediocre materials. Cheers

[mreza Salav]

Installs on plastic legs are just rubbish however.

Why? it's an easy/fast method to install/level base cabinets. Put a leger board on the back for the base cabinet to sit on and put two of these at the front to level
https://www.richelieu.com/ca/en/category/furniture-equipment/cabinet-levelers/451-series-abs-levelers/abs-levelers-with-head-20-mm-5-mm-adjustment/1015873/sku-4501090

Each can carry 650lb of load so for two it's 1300lb. Then the toe-kick just clips to them using these:
https://www.richelieu.com/ca/en/category/furniture-equipment/cabinet-levelers/toe-kick-fasteners/clip/1015857/sku-226301

[Brian Holcombe]

I cut dovetails for a recent base frame.

[Patrick Walsh]

I cut dovetails for a recent base frame.

Yeah but that’s furniture not cabinetry Brian. I know you call those cabinets but the industry and most consumers would call that furniture.

I have spent my life working in $3-25 million dollar Uber custom homes. Other that the random one off piece “say dinning room table” I dont know of anyone nor have I ever seen anyone dovetail together a stretcher for cabinet base. Not even a hand dovetailed drawer. But if you can get someone to pay you to do such all the power to you man.

Now I’m talking kitchens, furniture is a completely different thing. Yes I have seen many of a commissioned “furniture piece” in most cases blowing my mind solely based on me thinking how much the piece must of cost.

Years ago I worked on a project and the dinning table alone was $150K. All the lighting in the dinning room was 24K gold and the same in maybe 5-6 of the like 20 bathrooms in the home or rather palace. It was not normal, I guess thank god for the 1% as it has kept me from starving ; )

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm not advocating the practice. :D

[Patrick Walsh]

To answer the op’s question.

I work in a small four man custom cabinet shop. We build everything but our drawer boxes and have a in-house finisher. Boxes are solid maple and pre finished.

Our cab bases are raw plywood stapled and the screwed with 1.25 square drive screws. All our carcass are 3/4 sides and bottoms with 1/2 backs. We use largely single sided pre finished maple. Boxes are pinned or stapled and screwed together, no glue. Face frames pocket screwed and glued then are glued onto carcass with clamps only.

At first I thought to myself what kinda crap is this. Then I spent the last 8nmonths building and instslling the stuff. In that time I have built and installed some really really huge pieces built this way. Not once have I had a joint open in transport or installation.

Yes from my perspective I still think the stuff is crap but I don’t much care for plywood so take my oppinion with that factored in.

The reality is a kitchen is a 20 year thing these days and the non glued butt joints are plenty sufficient for a kitchen that gets screwed into place. A piece of furniture not so much.

[Scott Buehler]

I use butt joints with confirmat screws...very durable for cabinets as they are screwed next to other cabinets and also the wall. Definitely not preferred for furniture

[Wayne Lomman]

Why? it's an easy/fast method to install/level base cabinets. Put a leger board on the back for the base cabinet to sit on and put two of these at the front to level
https://www.richelieu.com/ca/en/category/furniture-equipment/cabinet-levelers/451-series-abs-levelers/abs-levelers-with-head-20-mm-5-mm-adjustment/1015873/sku-4501090

Each can carry 650lb of load so for two it's 1300lb. Then the toe-kick just clips to them using these:
https://www.richelieu.com/ca/en/category/furniture-equipment/cabinet-levelers/toe-kick-fasteners/clip/1015857/sku-226301
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know and have experience with. Plastic adjustable legs can take the weight, but is the cabinetry engineered around it? You will find that the manufacturer's recommended methods rely on ignoring the tendency for cabinetry to succumb to gravity over time. The method is exactly based around the cabinets being tossed out as fashion changes. Build a kitchen correctly and just as quickly and the carcases last as long as the building and they can get refaced at any time without throwing away half a forest. Cheers

[Simon MacGowen]

the back has a 1/4” panel that has sliding dado.
no glue.
box construction with plastic cabinet legs that the toe-kick snaps on.

he said he has never had an issue.

does this seem right?

Of course yes. You guys missed one critical piece of info there: the 1/4" panel back in a dado joint. The panel holds the carcase square and from racking (I suppose it is stapled into the frame too).

Simon

[Sam Murdoch]

OK - just to share in the conversation - my cabinets are pre-finished maple ply - 3/4" boxes with 1/2" backs. I Used to biscuit and glue with staples (just to hold for a minute) then 1-3/4" (1-5/8" to 2") screws to complete assembly. The backs are fastened with 1-1/4" screws to the boxes ganged up. Could be an 8' long back if I can carry and move the the finished assembly at the intended install location.

Gave up on the glue and biscuits after a few years. Can't glue to pre-finished maple so if I'm not using biscuits there is no sense to add glue. Working alone I can control my ply parts to maintain flush conditions as needed to screw everything together. Typically the bottoms are set flush to the sides as the boxes will then be installed on a full length base. (That's another thread.)

If I were working with a crew of cabinet makers in a shop situation I would detail the biscuits and glue as being a more definite way to insure that the parts that need to flush up do. Working alone I have the quality control without the extra detail or the oversight. :)

Anyway, the screwed together kitchen cabinet boxes with the attached 1/2" back are very very rugged and serve their purpose without compromise. A key requirement is to use good # 8 screws with the drill tip. No drywall screws here as too many would split the plywood apart UNLESS I predrilled. That is another step that is not necessary.

I install other's production built cabinets with 1/2" parts and staples - lots of caulk too - and they are more complicated to install without distorting, prone to coming apart if dropped and usually needing an extra effort to align doors and drawers. Uppers are a real pain to install properly. Once installed they make a decent enough "system" but without the life of service expectancy that my cabinets offer.

As a stand alone cabinet - especially a tall pantry type - simply screwing parts together might not be acceptable. Other details need to be incorporated to keep the box from racking or being pulled apart (especially if the interior is filled with pullout hardware). The structural integrity of the same box however, installed with flanking cabinets - now a "system of cabinets" - changes the dynamics and so the screwed together box is perfectly strong and functional. Lots of qualifiers to consider but to the OP's question - doesn't "seem" wrong!

[Jim Becker]

Typically the bottoms are set flush to the sides as the boxes will then be installed on a full length base. (That's another thread.)
As an aside, that's the method I prefer...separate base that can be completely leveled (easily) before putting the cabinet boxes on them. And you don't have to cut out that darn toe-kick notch on the cabinet sides. :) (other than an end-cap trim piece) Every component is rectangular.

[Peter Kelly]

Add to that, a separate plywood base can be secured to the floor with L brackets or glue blocks when installing a peninsula or an island. Not sure how you'd accomplish this with plastic legs.

Biscuits or Dominoes and glue here but I'm only building cabinetry for my own home anymore.

[Jim Dwight]

I installed a Kraft Made kitchen in our house this year. We paid extra for plywood boxes but backs are still veneered mdf. Joints are glued butt joints with no fasteners showing. Maple face frame is pocket screwed together. Drawers are dovetailed maple. To install the cooktop I had to remove most of the top of it's base cabinets. The granite guys knocked all the bracing out of the sink cabinet to get the sink in. It was a 30 inch cooktop in a 30 inch base cabinet and a 36 inch sink in a 36 inch cabinet. I cut the parts out but the granite guys just hit things with a hammer. It worked but would not have if I had made the cabinets. I am OK with the kitchen but feel like I paid a lot for what I got.