Sawstop Saga - like an episode of Columbo

[Dale Murray]

Just over a week ago I cut some aluminum on my Sawstop ICS - totally uneventful. Once I was done I gave it a very thorough cleaning and put it away.

Tuesday:
This past Tuesday my saw would not start - turn on the power and immediately get a solid red light indicating I need to replace the brake. Brake had not fired.
I pulled the brake, put it back - same error.
I installed the dado brake - same error.
I again, completely cleaned the saw using my air compressor to blow out every nook and cranny while also running the DC to collect it all. Powered it on, same error.

Did some internet searching - nothing conclusive.
Called and left a message with Sawstop.

Went back to the saw, gave it one last shot and it fired up. Everything seemed fine.

I used the saw for several hours, even changed brakes for a dado cut, and it was great.

Took a break for dinner and when I returned, solid red light.
I did a bit of fiddling and it fired up again - nothing conclusive, however.
I set it up for a cut - 45* on the blade and solid red light again. This time no amount of anything would get it to work.

Wednesday:
Sawstop called me back, we discuss the issue and they believe it is the power supply to the brake - which is housed in the switch box. I get home from work, call them, they talk me through opening the box and checking a few things. In the end he is convinced it is the switch box and I should call the next day to order a new one.

Thursday:
I call to order a new switch box. The tech looks through my notes and suggests I try something else - there could be schmutz between a component and the arbor. This is the ribbon cable attached to the bottom side of the arbor and a massive pain to get at. He suggests I loosen the screws holding it in place and blow it out with compressed air.
- I identify the part, blow it out. Same issue - solid red light.
- I loosen the screws, blot it out. Same issue - solid red light.
- I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Friday:
I call to order a new switch box. The tech (same person as the day before) looks through my notes and suggests I try something else; he is not convinced it is the switch box. Sends me new instructions.

This is where I am getting a bit upset.
1. I have called three times and been given three different trouble shooting steps over the course of three days. Why not give me a series of troubleshooting steps on the first day?
2. In all three calls it is either Switch Box ($125) or the cabling between the Box, Brake, and Arbor ($48), but they are not entirely sure.
3a. If I order both parts and find replacing the cabling fixes the issue I cannot return the switch box - parts are non-refundable.
3b. ... Tech support tells a customer what they need to replace to fix the saw and if it turns out the part was not the issue the customer is out the money; this does not sit well with me.
4. It is now day 3 of the saga and I have been given a definitive diagnostic test to determine the issue; why did it take three days to give me this test? Why not START WITH THIS TEST SINCE I WAS ALREADY INSIDE THE SWITCH BOX ON DAY 1?

So, tonight I will do the definitive test but cannot order whatever part I need until Tuesday. With shipping and the holiday I will not get the part until January 8th - 13 days after initial contact.

I am not a Sawstop evangelist - I only bought it because I could get it cheaper (used) than the Unisaw I had my eye on. The saw has been great and still is. The issue I have is Tech support keeps sending me back to the well with "just one more thing" to test before we know for sure. That is not good customer service.

374873
"Oh, there is just one more thing..."

[Mike Wilkins]

If there is a way to bypass the cartridge safety feature and use the saw as usual, give it a try. But that would defeat the premise why Sawstop owners get this machine in the first place.
This is the reason why I bypassed the SS in favor of a sliding table saw.

[Nick Decker]

Sorry to hear it and I have no clue, but I enjoyed the part about buying it drinks and asking about the family.

[Julie Moriarty]

Once Mr. Gass tried to get legislation passed to mandate that his technology be used in all table saws, he lost me. Be vigilant and use good safety practices and flesh sensing technology isn't necessary.

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts, it just confirms my belief Mr. Gass is more interested in profits than safety.

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

[Bill McNiel]

=- I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Now that was FUNNY!!!!

[Will Allen]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced. The up side is minimal and the downside is that you cant fix anything by yourself or easily.
I fixed my dryer today. Older model with no circuit boards or fancy gadgetry. Forty bucks for a part I diagnosed with a multimeter and I'm good to go.

I do the same with the vehicles I drive and the equipment I use to make a living.

[Simon MacGowen]

Once Mr. Gass tried to get legislation passed to mandate that his technology be used in all table saws, he lost me. Be vigilant and use good safety practices and flesh sensing technology isn't necessary.

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts, it just confirms my belief Mr. Gass is more interested in profits than safety.

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

First, it was a pain just to read through the OP's story. Frustrating...but unfortunately machine diagnostics are not always as straightforward and simple as they sound.

Second, are you kidding me, Julie? Still upset by Mr. Gass? Did you know you are barking the wrong tree now? SawStop is no longer his baby. He sold it to the family of Festool in case you don't know.

No saws or vendors are perfect. At least these SawStop technicians did try to help, but admittedly as the OP's post pointed out, they should have provided the definitive test right from the start.

Can anyone give me an example of a vendor that has never screwed up before, despite how well it is run and the stellar reputation it may enjoy? Just one please?

Before anyone asks, yes I am a SawStop owner and have used both the Ind. and PCS saws with full satisfaction for over 10 years. (Now, it wouldn't be a very smart question to ask how many fingers I still have on each hand.)

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced. The up side is minimal and the downside is that you cant fix anything by yourself or easily.
I fixed my dryer today. Older model with no circuit boards or fancy gadgetry. Forty bucks for a part I diagnosed with a multimeter and I'm good to go.

I do the same with the vehicles I drive and the equipment I use to make a living.

I can only partially agree with you.

Phones and computers are much much better today than their old grandparents.

But, vehicle safety is definitely one area I disagree with you on your observations. A friend of mine fell asleep behind the steering wheel last month on a highway in NY state and when he woke up, he saw fire engines and ambulance. He hit the back of a truck parked on the shoulder lane traveling at well over 65 mph (according to the state police estimate). One of the passengers died and he wishes (probably for the rest of his life) that he had driven his wife's car -- a less-than-one-year-old car with a pre-collision brake system, among all other advanced safety warning features.

I never cut my finger on the tablesaw before I got the SawStop. I never have had one single car accident, let alone falling asleep behind the steering wheel (I started driving in the early 70s), but I am now planning to get a new car in the new year that comes with the pre-collision brake system (a feature that was previously available only to luxury or high end cars).

Simon

[Ben Rivel]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.

[Simon MacGowen]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.
+1

I wouldn't even cut aluminum on my mitresaw even though the manual says I could do that with a metal blade.

When I bypass my SawStop for selective cuts, I am extremely cautious and use all safety aids available to me.

Simon

[Dale Murray]

My initial intention was not to buy a Sawstop, I was aiming for a Unisaw but I found this one (Sawstop ICS 3hp with 52" fence and mobile base) in near mint condition for $250 less than a new Unisaw, I figured it was worth it.

more ranting
- Mechanically I have ABSOLUTELY no issues with the saw, it is built like a tank and been splendid. The mobile base is a dream to use.
- Electronically, I am not going to complain to loudly; this is the very first issue I have had with it.
- Actual troubleshooting when the time arrises leaves a bit to be desired.

First day I was on the phone with tech they had me access the "Switch Box" to check something.
Second day they have me screwing around with a screw driver on the arbor.
Third day (today) I will be accessing the "Switch Box" AGAIN.

Guess what, I could have done todays test two days ago and already ordered my parts and be running next week. Instead I am doing it tonight and, even if I ordered parts today, they will not go out until Tuesday which means they will not arrive until the week of the 13th.

It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense that I need to contact them three times for troubleshooting. I've worked in IT for 20 years, I understand trouble shooting. I understand process. I understand documentation. I understand "If this then that".

I can go to the sites of Microsoft, Juniper, all flavors of Linux, and find massive amounts of documentation covering all forms of troubleshooting that I can freely access and test. This is not the case with Sawstop.

thoughtful ranting
Sawstop seemingly want to be the gateway for all information, which I can understand, but if doing to is a hinderance to their current, and future, customers it is going to hinder growth and satisfaction.

Generally, woodworkers and logical and thoughtful people. We have a well developed understanding of our machines and the logic behind them. What we don't like is a gate keeper putting the brakes on any potential progress or project because our issue is outside the hours of 6:30am - 5pm pacific time between Monday and Friday. I would wager most of us have day jobs and families. Most of us are not freely available to chat on the phone with support while standing at our tools.


ultimately
- I assure you, I did point out my issues with their method of troubleshooting and lack of access to such documentation.
- I will also assure you I will be writing up an instructional document outlining the steps I've been instructed to take and posting them on the internet so others may benefit from this. No need for them to immediately, and repeatedly, visit the wizard in the tower for additional instruction.
- I feel a bit sorry for the person handling their facebook messages - they just got an earful.

I doubt I will do any further conversing with component pieces of this device; nice conversation gained me nothing last night. I will perform the test, put the saw away for a week, and enjoy a great many cocktails.

[Dale Murray]

Exactly why I would never even trust cutting a conductive material on a saw that has a flesh detection system that uses conductivity. My woodworking saws are just for wood. Metal saws for metal. I know many here have done it, but it just sounds like a bad idea in my head and I wouldnt attempt it.

Documentation stated it is totally fine to do so; I did my research before doing so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it, just very messy.

[Dale Murray]

I completely remove it, blow it out, wipe it down, buy it drinks and ask about its family. Same issue - solid red light.

Now that was FUNNY!!!!

Glad you both enjoyed it. I try to have fun when I am annoyed.

[Dale Murray]

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts...

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

If I were willy nilly buying parts then wanted to return them I could understand the policy. If they recommend I buy the part and it does not work, they should be willing to take it back.

I won't divorce myself from Sawstop - mechanically the machine is great. I may, however, divorce myself from the technology by rewiring it like a normal saw if I have future issues.

Honestly, I believe it is the wire causing the issue, not the Switch Box.

[Dale Murray]

This is why I avoid buying anything that is so technically advanced.

This is not a terribly difficult machine to understand. Honestly, it is brilliant in its simplicity. The brains of the operation are in the brake cartridge - its what does all the computing. Troubleshooting should be no more difficult than:
a. getting diagnostic code (mine is 24)
b. reference a lookup table for code 24.
c. follow steps to find root cause of code 24.

No different than pulling a code on your car with an OBDII tool.

[Dale Murray]

Following are the harrowing depths of troubleshooting required to figure out if it is the Switch Box or the cable.

1. Unplug saw.
2. Remove six screws on the left side of the switch box exposing the internal circuit board and RS-232 plug and port (similar to an old computer monitor port if you don't know).
3. Disconnect the cable from the RS-232 port.
4. Bend a paperclip with great skill and dexterity.
5. Jam the paper clip in to holes 6 & 8, see picture included in the post.
6. Plug in saw.
7. Turn power on.
8. Observe LED indicator lights.

If the left LED is on and solid (no blinking) then the power supply is good and the cable to the brake and arbor must be replaced.
If the left LED is off or blinking then the power supply is bad and should be replaced.

Wow. That took all of 10 minutes to complete, two of those were locating a paperclip.

In my case, it is the wire that needs to be replaced, $48.

374885 374886

Could have told me this on Wednesday and I would be up and working next week. Could post these instructions on their website and I would be even happier.

[Simon MacGowen]

Following are the harrowing depths of troubleshooting required to figure out if it is the Switch Box or the cable.

1. Unplug saw.
2. Remove six screws on the left side of the switch box exposing the internal circuit board and RS-232 plug and port (similar to an old computer monitor port if you don't know).
3. Disconnect the cable from the RS-232 port.
4. Bend a paperclip with great skill and dexterity.
5. Jam the paper clip in to holes 6 & 8, see picture included in the post.
6. Plug in saw.
7. Turn power on.
8. Observe LED indicator lights.

If the left LED is on and solid (no blinking) then the power supply is good and the cable to the brake and arbor must be replaced.
If the left LED is off or blinking then the power supply is bad and should be replaced.

Wow. That took all of 10 minutes to complete, two of those were locating a paperclip.

In my case, it is the wire that needs to be replaced, $48.



Could have told me this on Wednesday and I would be up and working next week. Could post these instructions on their website and I would be even happier.

Thanks for this PSA. I have printed it out and tucked it with my manual...hope I will never need to use it though.

I would suggest that for your patience, SawStop should send you the wire free of charge. Not harm trying to talk to one of their supervisors, if the first technicians you contacted couldn't help about the freebie.

Simon

[Simon MacGowen]

My initial intention was not to buy a Sawstop, I was aiming for a Unisaw but I found this one (Sawstop ICS 3hp with 52" fence and mobile base) in near mint condition for $250 less than a new Unisaw, I figured it was worth it.

- I feel a bit sorry for the person handling their facebook messages - they just got an earful.

.

They DESERVED it!

SawStop management must revisit with its technicians/customer service how this went wrong and how it could be prevented from happening again.

Simon

[mreza Salav]

Sorry for the trouble you had to go through. I hope your issue is resolved. Maybe they didn't have the most informed technician these few days between holidays.
I agree they should have figured this out earlier; this is contrary to the service I have received from them, which has been excellent and way beyond what I expected on more than a couple of occasions.
I bought a demo ICS machine (years back) and while putting it together noticed a few discrepancies in their manual which I notified them. Then later on when I put on a new ZCI I got fooled by the slot for the riving knife thinking it will clear through the back and didn't remove it. Guess what happened (riving knife hit the blade and baaang!). Wrote to them that it would have been nice to have a sticker on the ZCI saying to remove the riving knife (eventhough there is a pre-cut slot at the back which "appears to clear the riving knife). They said that since 6 month ago (at the time) they have added such sticker and that I must have one of the first batches of the ZCI's they produced and sent me a new blade and cartridge free of charge. There has been a few other technical situations that they came out at the top.

[Brent VanFossen]

Thanks for posting the troubleshooting instructions. I hope that I never need them, but I will save them for later.
Maybe you said and I missed it, but you know how to bypass the safety feature, right? Turn the little key on the right side of the power switch when you turn on the motor. The light will flash, but the blade will turn. You *may* be able to use that workaround to bypass the safety circuit and use the saw until you get everything fixed.
Good luck.

[Dale Murray]

The very first thing a person should do is test with a second brake, this would rule out a defective brake.

If the prior steps indicate the power supply is good the next thing, I THINK, you should do is check the ribbon cable where it attaches to the arbor; basically a little finger that touches the casting.

Apparently schmutz can get between it and the arbor casting.
1. blast it with compressed air. Then test by powering on the saw.
2. Loosen the three screws holding it in place, blast with compressed air. Tighten screws, try again.
3. Completely remove it. Give it a good looking over. Ask about its family and how the kids are doing. wipe down the arbor, wipe down the sensor. Reassemble and test by powering on.

If it still fails that I would conclude its the wire.

Annoyingly I felt it was the wire all along but differed to the experts.

Saw is all put away.

[Keith Mathewson]

I bought one of the first models when they came out years ago. This saw has been used daily in a production shop and has preformed very well. Over the years I have replaced many parts of the saw and can tell you that for the first several years customer service was beyond outstanding. The people knew what they were talking about and returns, although seldom were never questioned. When improvements to the saw were made there were times when I was sent a newer improved part for free even if the original was working. In the past 2 or 3 years customer service has changed and is now more in keeping with the op's experience.

A couple of rants-
I have heard the complaints about Mr. Gass many times and have grown weary of them. The man made a better mouse trap and wanted to get rich off it. To my mind that is the goal of business, any business. Try buying a new car without seatbelts or not having the alarm constantly go off it not buckled.

If I'm careful I'll never get hurt.... I've met too many professionals who have had nasty cuts or lost fingers. The thought that you can do something everyday for 30+ years and never make a mistake is more than just wishful thinking.

[Joe Jensen]

Once Mr. Gass tried to get legislation passed to mandate that his technology be used in all table saws, he lost me. Be vigilant and use good safety practices and flesh sensing technology isn't necessary.

To now hear about the electronics failing and the company refusing to accept returns on unused parts, it just confirms my belief Mr. Gass is more interested in profits than safety.

Sorry to hear about your table saw woes, Dale. I hope you can find a work around and maybe find a way to divorce yourself from Sawstop.

Rewind tape and press play yet again. Is Mr Gass the one chasing profits of all the other saw makers who refused to pay for the tech. If you read the history he tried for several years to license before reluctantly building his own tools. Now, rewind your rant tape and press play again.

[Rick Potter]

Glad to hear you were able to finally find the problem. This time of year, I wouldn't be surprised if they had the newest person in the department handling the phones. I understand your frustration, but you might want to read the recent rant about Powermatic service. At least SS was trying to help, not just shining you on.

Hope it is up and running properly soon.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

"The issue I have is Tech support keeps sending me back to the well with "just one more thing" to test before we know for sure. That is not good customer service."

Sorry you had this experience, but I am glad to hear that your issue is resolved.

As a service professional who manages a large field and technical support team for electrical mechanical equipment (not saw stop), I can say some days you get the bear and some days the bear gets you. It would have been great if the techs caught the issue on the first call, but some days the magic wand does not work well. I would be remiss, however, in not pointing out some exceeding good support you got:

1. The techs did not just start throwing parts at your issue, but actually wanted to identified the specific issue. It would have been very easy for them to have you start replacing components, especially with an intermittent problem. I know they did not get the resolution as fast as you would have liked.

2. The techs documented the troubleshooting they did and reviewed it before recommending a new course of action.

3. The techs spent a significant amount of time over several days supporting you at no charge even though: (1) you were not the original purchaser of the equipment and (2) the tool was not under warranty. This level of support is very, very rare. Try calling a major car manufacturer or you computer manufacture and asking them to walk you though several hours of troubleshooting support on a used, out of warranty piece of equipment.

[Martin Wasner]

Rewind tape and press play yet again. Is Mr Gass the one chasing profits of all the other saw makers who refused to pay for the tech. If you read the history he tried for several years to license before reluctantly building his own tools. Now, rewind your rant tape and press play again.

Clearly he doesn't want to be involved in manufacturing, since he hung onto the patents but sold the rest to Festo

[Mike Henderson]

Clearly he doesn't want to be involved in manufacturing, since he hung onto the patents but sold the rest to Festo

Sometimes there's a business reason for a company not to buy the patents. Sometimes the company purchasing the other company has patent cross licensing agreements with other companies. This is very common among companies who are in the same business. The reason they do that is that it's often almost impossible to make a modern product without infringing on each other's patents.

So if Festool bought the patents, other companies could have gotten the right to use those patents. By leaving them with Gass, Festool's competitors do not get access to the patents.

This was the situation in communication modems, which I spent most of my career in. The big companies all has cross licensing agreements because otherwise we'd have spent a fortune suing each other, and paying each other patent royalties. What it meant was that a company who did not have any (or many) patents essentially could not enter the business - it would have cost them too much in royalties.

With the 56K modem, AT&T had prior art on the technology but allowed an individual to obtain the patent, after they did a low cost licensing agreement with him. He then pursued all the other modem makers for higher patent royalties, which put them at a financial disadvantage to AT&T. Of course, today all those patents have expired and anyone can make modems - but not too many people want to buy them.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

Sounds like a poor design if the wire fails just from normal use. Is the wire getting hit by sawdust and thrown bits of wood? Is the wire broken internally or is the connector bad.
On my 1985 Ford truck most of the wire connectors were latched tight and fairly hard to unplug. Same on my 2000 Ford. I do not remember but the 2000 truck almost all the wire connectors are filled with grease to prevent moisture damage.
Bill

[Darcy Warner]

I am pretty sure TTS (festool's parent company) owns the patent rights as well.

[Wade Lippman]

I can only partially agree with you.

Phones and computers are much much better today than their old grandparents.

But, vehicle safety is definitely one area I disagree with you on your observations. A friend of mine fell asleep behind the steering wheel last month on a highway in NY state and when he woke up, he saw fire engines and ambulance. He hit the back of a truck parked on the shoulder lane traveling at well over 65 mph (according to the state police estimate). One of the passengers died and he wishes (probably for the rest of his life) that he had driven his wife's car -- a less-than-one-year-old car with a pre-collision brake system, among all other advanced safety warning features.

I never cut my finger on the tablesaw before I got the SawStop. I never have had one single car accident, let alone falling asleep behind the steering wheel (I started driving in the early 70s), but I am now planning to get a new car in the new year that comes with the pre-collision brake system (a feature that was previously available only to luxury or high end cars).

Simon

I have a SS. Frankly it is a Pain, but people do cut off fingers and I would like to save mine; so I put up with not being able to cut aluminum on my TS. And no, just being careful is not a substitute. I put my finger into a BS when I was being careful and a piece of wood inexplicably split in half when I was 5" away from the blade. It happens.

OTOH, the car I bought last year had pre-collision braking for $1,000 more. In 45 years of driving, I never needed it. I can't imagine needing it. People say it can dangerous when it gives warnings for no particular reason. Instead, I will just not go out on the highway when I am too tired to drive safely.

I love the blind spot monitoring. That is a major safety feature and is a reason I bought a new car.

[jack duren]

Stop with the SS politics...........

[Julie Moriarty]

I won't divorce myself from Sawstop - mechanically the machine is great. I may, however, divorce myself from the technology by rewiring it like a normal saw if I have future issues.
That's what I was thinking when I suggested divorcing yourself from Sawstop, divorce yourself from the technology and all that comes with it.

From what I've heard, the saw itself is excellent. It's only Achilles heel (as far as I know) is the technology that put it in the spotlight in the first place. I think I'd be on pins and needles fearing a false firing, knowing the cost of replacing the brake and blade. So bypassing the flesh sensor would be something I'd seriously consider.

Think of how many blade guards made their way into the trash bin because they were such a pain to deal with. We first want things to do the job they were intended to do. If there's something preventing that from happening.... bye-bye!

[Jim Dwight]

I only own three Festool tools and none of the high dollar items. Instructions for each are almost totally sketches. They are helpful but for Festool prices you'd think they could include some actual instructions. The devices themselves are fairly self explanatory but still....

SS would seem to fit with this mentality. But their customer service guys may need a better script too. They seemed to be making it up as they went. Seems like they should have a script telling them the steps.

[Darcy Warner]

I only own three Festool tools and none of the high dollar items. Instructions for each are almost totally sketches. They are helpful but for Festool prices you'd think they could include some actual instructions. The devices themselves are fairly self explanatory but still....

SS would seem to fit with this mentality. But their customer service guys may need a better script too. They seemed to be making it up as they went. Seems like they should have a script telling them the steps.

That's because Germany is in charge of the manuals. They figure if you can afford to buy their tools you already know how to use them. To finish sand in Germany, you have to apprentice as a sander for four years.

Straight from my buddy's at festool.