Mortiser or Router?

[Julie Moriarty]

When making mortises by machine, between using a router or using a mortiser...

1. Which do you find most accurate?

2. Which do you find easiest?

[Matt Day]

Is the Domino an option?

As for the two choices you have, well, it depends. Are you talking big old arn floor standing Mortiser, or a bench mounted type?

For the router, simple edge guide or a woodrat or jds type machine, or shop made jig?

What size mortises?

[Brian Henderson]

I had a dedicated mortiser years ago and I never used it so I got rid of it. It's faster and easier, IMO, to just use a router or router table to make pretty much any mortise. I can square the corners faster than I can hog out the material on a mortiser, or I just make tenons with rounded corners.

[John TenEyck]

There are several different mortiser types out there so it's hard to generalize, but I will anyway. For me, a router is faster and easier and gives you a precisely cut, smooth mortise, something many mortisers can't do, certainly not the typical chisel mortiser. You should build one of my horizontal router mortisers. It makes mortises, tenons, and much more quickly, easily, accurately, and safely.

John

https://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects/horizontal-router-mortiser

[Brian Holcombe]

This should probably be narrowed to specific choices.

CNC swing chisel mortiser is likely the fastest and most accurate. :D

I've chopped a considerable number of mortises by hand, which can at times be faster than machine but certainly relies heavily upon experience.

I've used a router guide set to knife gauge marks and it works well and is extremely fast with the right bits.

I have recently added a Felder FD-250, with the right bits its pretty quick and certainly it can be extremely accurate which is wonderful. It can be outfitted with a square chisel but for the moment I'm simply squaring up the ends.

[Julie Moriarty]

When I thought I needed to get into mortising for doing doors, I bought a Powermatic benchtop mortiser (PM701). I also bought four Powermatic "premier" chisels. Following the directions exactly, I went to make my first mortise. It did not go like what I had seen online. The edges were pretty ratty. I made numerous attempts after that to fine tune it, including making sure the chisels were sharp, but never could get clean edges.

Though I hardly used it, I packed the mortiser and moved it to the new house. For the past two years it's only been collecting dust. Yesterday I was looking at other possibilities to making cabinet doors, other than cope and stick frames I typically make with a router bit set.

Going to mortise and tenon, I can get two widths from the boards.

So I pulled out the mortiser, cleaned it up and set it up to make 1/4" x 1-3/4" mortises. Results were pretty much the same as before. :(

I know the shoulders on the tenon piece will hide the ratty edges but I'm concerned about the ratty interior of the mortise and how well it will hold when glued. That's when I began to wonder if I'd be better off if I just made a mortising jig for the router.

[Mike Cutler]

Julie

More accurate? My Delta 14-651.
Easier? My Delta 14-651.
It is not fast though. It is SLOW!
It took a lot of work to make my bench top mortiser work correctly. Out of the box it was pretty crude. The chisels and bits, the bits have to be sharpened also, were just awful. I have heard that the Clico's are supposed to be the best, but they are $$$$. The head and ways had to be stoned for proper operation and alignment. The base table, fence, and hold down, are "somewhere". They were also awful and completely unacceptable. I haven't seen them in a few years.
The mortiser now sits on a homemade base with an X-Y vise and built in dial indicators. I would been better of buying an FMT from the start, had I known better.

If you didn't already have a mortiser, I would tell you to use a router, with home built jig, one of the zillion jigs available third party, or build the horizontal slot mortiser John linked to. If you're going to be using floating tenons, and it sounds as if you are, a router would certainly do it. both fast and accurately.

If you're worried about the interior surfaces, and bonding, of the mortises you cut with your current mortiser, use an epoxy with a thixotropic agent, or just buy a kit of T-88, or something similar to fill gaps.

[David Kumm]

I do a lot of floating tenons and because I like machines, I have a Fay and Egan chisel mortiser, a Felder F250, A Maka SM 6, and a Bacci. My favorite all around is the Bacci, but mainly because 5/8" mortises in end grain hickory don't beat you to death like the FD 250. Maka is pretty sweet but hard to find a reasonably priced used machine. The Bacci type can be had pretty cheap if you can figure out how to fix pneumatics that may be mucked up. The hollow chisel is used the least and mainly for smaller stuff. I don't have a domino but if I were starting over, it would likely be my first choice as it is versatile and doesn't use up floor space. Dave

PS: A multirouter should also be considered if you can find one for a decent price. It works best for smaller mortises but provides a handy way to turn a router into a flexible machine.

[Warren Lake]

mortising attachment in a drill press works fine. Used that till I got a mortiser.

[George Bokros]

I have the now discontinued Mortise Pal and have used it twice and it works great. Nice smooth mortises. I need to perfect making my loose tenons. I made some that were not perfect but did work. A little more work with the router table making tenons and I will be fine. I really like the Mortise Pal.

One thing I really like about using loose tenons is you can make your components to final size without allowing for the length of the tenon.

[Brian Henderson]

mortising attachment in a drill press works fine. Used that till I got a mortiser.

I've got a set of those too. Don't think I've ever used them. I didn't even remember I had them until I moved and found them in a box.

[glenn bradley]

Another Mortise Pal user here. If I knew they were going to stop making them I wouldn’t have sold my version 1 when I bought my version 2.

[Ben Abate]

A lot of good advice has been given. David has a good point about the Domino I once owed a Felder FD 250. I didn’t use it that much because I found that bringing the work to the machine is harder that bringing the machine to the work. I built and still do build a lot of doors and I find it’s easier to bring the Domino to the work. Easier to set up and fast. Mortisers are slow unless you plan to spend a bunch of money. I believe most fellows who own a Domino will agree they work well and if you thinking of using a router buy a good one and put some thought into how you will approach your technique. I use a Festool 1400 with two fences for large mortises or a Festool MFS set up. Again in my opinion it’s easier to bring the tool to the work especially if you are doing this as a hobby

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Julie,

I have done both.

I have a General International mortiser with their stock chisels. I didn't have good luck with it UNTIL I started using a diamond cone shaped hone to hone the inside of the chisel and then hone the outside with a flat diamond hone that I use on some of my turning tools. I use a cone shaped reamer to cut a new edge and then hone it with the diamond cone hone. Once a new edge is cut, I can hone for a lot mortises. It's important that the fence and the back side of the chisel be absolutely parallel to prevent ratty edges too.

I prefer the mortiser but I have done both. If I was just doing a few, I'd use a router bit on my router table.

It is like a lot of things, it's subjective.

[Marc Burt]

I use a domino for most thing now but prior to that I used a router and homemade jig for years. I’ve owned a benchtop Delta for over a decade now and have maybe used it 3 times. Router is easier and faster.

[Stan Calow]

I have a Delta bench top mortiser. My mortises never look as good as the ones on TV and in magazines. It is slow and tedious to set up and clamp properly and squarely for each plunge. I just finished cutting a bunch for a project and am thinking that the best thing to do is use a router (with straight pattern bit) after the mortiser to clean up the mortises.

I'm always disappointed to find that home shop tools like my mortiser are designed without thought to clamping surfaces and with poor fences.

[Jim Becker]

I sold my bench top mortiser about a year ago to another local woodworker...I hadn't used it in years. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in using mortise and tenon joinery when it's appropriate. My solution for going forward was already mentioned. I recently bought a Domino 700XL to "do the deed". I like so-called "loose tenon" joinery because it greatly simplifies cutting the workpiece components and the Domino is very well suited to that. And as another person mentioned, bringing the tool to the work is quite often a lot more convenient than bringing a workpiece to a machine, especially when it's something larger and heavier.

It's good that there are many choices. My J/P has the ability to use a mortising attachment, but I never bought it and since it hangs off the back of my particular machine, it wouldn't be practical in my shop due to space constraints. I occasionally cut them by hand, usually by pre-drilling with a forstner bit and then cleaning things up. I've used a router a few times, but I'm not fond of balancing a router and jig on the edge of a piece of material, personally. I briefly had the drill press attachment...which is pretty much the equivalent of the bench top mortiser, excepting the DP had to be re-configured anytime it was needed. It cut about as well as the bench top machine, in my experience. ;) There are other methods/machines, too, but I haven't used them.

[jack duren]

Prefer the mortiser over the Domino or router...

[Ron Citerone]

I have a jet mortiser. At first I didn't like it, until I learned to sharpen the chisels properly..............that takes some research and practice and is worth the time if you intend to mae a lot of M&T's.............other wise I would do the router thing.

[Robert Cherry]

Over the years I've cut mortises by hand, with a hollow chisel mortiser, with a router and home made mortising block, with a Domino, with a multi-router and most recently with the Leigh FMT.

Overall I like the multi-router the best, but it is very expensive and hard to find used. The Leigh FMT is a decent affordable alternative and is my current preferred way to cut mortises. If you are going to make only mortises that are parallel to the edges of the work piece, a simple home made mortising block (Like the Jeff Miller design from FWW a few years back) and a plunge router will work perfectly and is easy to make.

[Wayne Lomman]

Julie, I have used chain, chisel and oscillating mortisers as well as done them with a router. The chain and oscillating mortisers were for production chairmaking and were repeatably accurate. Since then I have used a chisel mortiser for low volume work and a router and jigs for funny angles or site work.

In the workshop I recommend using the chisel mortiser. Don't be too concerned about the slightly ratty interior. Getting your chisel set up parallel to the fence helps with this, plus you need to clean out corners with a good sharp chisel. Provided your tenon fits firmly it works fine.

However, there are times when a router is easier, say with a heavy timber or an odd angle. In the end it is your preference but whichever you choose, you are not sacrificing structural integrity. If you want to see untidy, knock apart an antique chair. They were pretty rough. Cheers

[Darcy Warner]

Chain mortiser, then a big old hollow chisel, then a maka. Sold my domino.

[Jim Becker]

BTW, with the hollow chisel mortiser, it's not just about having the chisels sharp. They are only there to "clean up" and square the cut. The drill bit in the center is supposed to do the majority of the work and therefore, it must be slightly protruding from the chisel so the chisel follows it into the material. A lot of folks don't leave the drill bit "long enough" and suffer the consequences.

[Marshall Harrison]

A lot of good advice has been given. David has a good point about the Domino I once owed a Felder FD 250. I didn’t use it that much because I found that bringing the work to the machine is harder that bringing the machine to the work. I built and still do build a lot of doors and I find it’s easier to bring the Domino to the work. Easier to set up and fast. Mortisers are slow unless you plan to spend a bunch of money. I believe most fellows who own a Domino will agree they work well and if you thinking of using a router buy a good one and put some thought into how you will approach your technique. I use a Festool 1400 with two fences for large mortises or a Festool MFS set up. Again in my opinion it’s easier to bring the tool to the work especially if you are doing this as a hobby

Can the Domino wood plugs be used in holes created with a router? Or is it too much trouble?

I like the concept but spending the money for the Domino is out of the question at the moment.

[George Bokros]

Can the Domino wood plugs be used in holes created with a router? Or is it too much trouble?

I like the concept but spending the money for the Domino is out of the question at the moment.

You can use dominos in mortises cut with a router but you will need a metric sized bit since dominos are metric. Also dominos are expensive.

See the thread I started Dec 18th - link here http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260440-Using-Dominos-Without-The-Festool-Investment&highlight=http://

[Marshall Harrison]

You can use dominos in mortises cut with a router but you will need a metric sized bit since dominos are metric. Also dominos are expensive.

See the thread I started Dec 18th - link here http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?260440-Using-Dominos-Without-The-Festool-Investment&highlight=http://

Thanks for the link George.

My wife is adverse to me spending any money on tools until I prove myself at this new woodworking venture. I understand her logic and its not a battle I feel like fighting. I have a keen interest in Craftsman/Arts & Craft/Mission style furniture so I'm thinking the best move I can make is learn to do it the old fashioned way. My volume will be low so no big need to mass produce projects in a a hurry.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

BTW, with the hollow chisel mortiser, it's not just about having the chisels sharp. They are only there to "clean up" and square the cut. The drill bit in the center is supposed to do the majority of the work and therefore, it must be slightly protruding from the chisel so the chisel follows it into the material. A lot of folks don't leave the drill bit "long enough" and suffer the consequences.

I agree Jim. With a hollow chisel mortiser, it's about sharpness and alignment. I also sharpen and hone the cutting edges on the bit.

[Jim Morgan]

I agree Jim. With a hollow chisel mortiser, it's about sharpness and alignment. I also sharpen and hone the cutting edges on the bit.

It's also a good idea to polish the flutes of the bit and the interior of the hollow chisel so that chips will flow up and out of the opening in the chisel. A buffing wheel charged with green compound does a good job on the flutes. For the interior of the chisel, use an appropriately sized dowel with green compound rubbed on and chucked into a drill press at LOW speed.

[Jim Morgan]

Sorry, unintended double post.

[David Utterback]

Recently exceeded the capacity of my bench top mortise machine with boards wider than 5". Switched to the drill press and bench chisels to cut the mortises in stiles for 2 exterior doors. They are about 3" deep. For some unknown reason, I have not tried to use a router. I guess I also fear trying to balance it on the narrow surface.

[Prashun Patel]

Julie-
What do you wish to do?

For doors, and larger work, a Domino (the 700) has been nice for me, because I can take the tool to the work as has been stated.

Mortises don't find their way into all of my projects, so in my small shop, a portable solution like Domino is good.

The benefit of a Domino over a router is that you'll need a dedicated template for each situation with the router. For Domino, the fence and pins on the fence make referencing and alignment easier.

It's not that it's any better than other solutions, but it is fast and quite versatile. It's worthy of consideration.

[Marshall Harrison]

For some unknown reason, I have not tried to use a router. I guess I also fear trying to balance it on the narrow surface.

The solution to that is to hold some other boards up on either side of the board that you are routing the mortice into. That gives you a wider surface to balance the router on. It's also a good idea to have the other boards extend past the one you are routing so that your router doesn't take a nose dive when you run off the end of your board with the router base.

[John TenEyck]

The solution to that is to hold some other boards up on either side of the board that you are routing the mortice into. That gives you a wider surface to balance the router on. It's also a good idea to have the other boards extend past the one you are routing so that your router doesn't take a nose dive when you run off the end of your board with the router base.


The better solution is to build my horizontal router mortiser.
It will be the best $100 you ever spend on woodworking. You will never fear having to make mortises again, especially if you have to cut a few hundred of them. Every one will be accurately located, have clean, parallel sides, and require zero clean-up afterwards. Just look at the photos and video in the link I provided.

John

[Julie Moriarty]

Taking another look at what was occurring to create ratty edges, I noticed the gap in the fence, right where the drilling is done, allows for the unsupported end of the board to move. As you move through the mortise and the board contacts the other side of the fence, the mortise slot stays pretty true.

So I did a "tune up" on the machine and chisel bits. I honed the exterior chisels on a water stone to 8000 and used the included cone sharpener to sharpen the inside. Then I took two milled pieces of maple and used them to sandwich the board so it can't move front to back. The next mortise was much better but not being satisfied with better, I took a mortise chisel to it and cleaned it up. The mortise looked pretty good. Next, of course, is to set up the tenoning jig. Once completed, I created a tenon and the fit was excellent.

And after all this was done I had to ask myself, "Do I really want to make 40 frame and panel doors and drawer fronts using this method?" There would be no profile on the interior of the rails and stiles - Mission style. The doors and drawers I am gluing up today for the island have a Shaker profile, but the island is being finished differently than the carcases on the rest of the cabinets so that's no big deal. They were created with a Shaker router bit set. And I have that rail coping sled that works like a charm. And I've got the dust collection at the router table really dialed in well.

Hmmmmmm........

The easiest method is to use the router bit set. I've got everything I need for that. The only down side is I'll have to accept getting only one rail/stile board from each 5" wide board I have. But I have enough wood. The cut offs I can use for panel glue ups.

I think you can guess which way I'm leaning. :)

[Brian Henderson]

Recently exceeded the capacity of my bench top mortise machine with boards wider than 5". Switched to the drill press and bench chisels to cut the mortises in stiles for 2 exterior doors. They are about 3" deep. For some unknown reason, I have not tried to use a router. I guess I also fear trying to balance it on the narrow surface.

Simple solution, clamp other boards to the sides to give yourself a wider area to balance on.

[Rick Potter]

Julie,

Have you considered using Bridle Joints on those cabinet doors? That seems like it would lend itself to Shaker style. Pretty quick, once set up on the table saw, and you will sure have a strong joint.

[roger wiegand]

I have the large floor mounted General hollow chisel mortiser, and find that the sliding table makes all the difference in the world. Once the stops are set you can bang out lots of parts very quickly without having to do any measuring or marking. Perhaps not quite as quick as a Domino, but pretty close. I fooled with router setups over the years and never found one that allowed me to work quickly and with confidence-- Undoubtedly user error, but something would always wobble, giving me wavy sides. That was true both with the router table setups I tried and with jigs that I attempted to guide the router.

The key to making the General work well was to throw away the stock chisels and replace them with the Lee Valley "premium" chisels. Sharpening and flattening the sides of the stock chisels (which took forever!) got me 3/4 of the way to good performance, the Japanese chisels with just a little touch up of the edges made mortising a pleasure.

Just for fun or when I only have a couple to do I hand chop them. It's surprisingly quick. I'm on the fence about whether drilling out most of the waste is a better method or not. Mostly I don't drill and just chisel them out. Very large mortises, like for bed frames, I will drill first.

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s true the heavy floor mount chisel mortisers are night and day difference from the bench top ones. We have a bench top and even with sharp tools it is painfull. I call it the P38 because every time I use it I want to send it flying to the dumpster!

We finally picked up a old Wadkin DM and it is a pleasure to use with all adjustments precise and easy. It has become our go to mortiser for low volume work where fast setup is desired. We have a slot mortiser and Domino. They have their benefits for a lot of work but the round end pretty much limits you to loose mortises in production work unless you have a method to round the tenons. We also have a Maka and they make the cleanest mortise but some serious money for the machine and tooling. Not the easiest to set up either.

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[Derek Cohen]

The advantage of a router is that one may use an upcut blade for a very long time (measured in months or years, especially if carbide) before it needs to be sharpened. My impression (and limited experience) of a mortiser is that they need frequent sharpening (measured in minutes or hours), especially in very hard woods, and that sharpening is not an easy task.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Lent]

I've gone the full route, from chopping out the mortises with a hammer and mortising chisel to using a mortiser and square chisels, to a shop made jig and router, to a Trend mortising jig and router, and finally to a Leigh FMT jig and router. I've no need to go further. The router and FMT do both the mortise and the tenon with the same setup, and there is a fine adjustment on the jig to tune the size of the mortise and tenon for exactly the fit that I want. The trend jig didn't have this adjustment feature and was much more difficult to set up. I have smooth sided mortises and perfect fitting tenons without any fussing, and they are repeatable, so I can cut 20 mortises and then the matching tenons, and all will fit together without any fine tuning. I don't even have to match the mortise to the tenon, because all are the same. A CNC might be better for speed, but I have no room for one, and my FMT does everything that I need. I bought it when facing a job that required about 1600 mortise and tenon joints. It saved me and paid for itself with that one job and that was almost 10 years ago. It still gets used frequently, but for much smaller jobs.

When mortising with a router and any router mortising jig, it helps to plunge cut many holes and then go back and clean them out to final dimension. This is in the FMT instructions, but helps when using any router jig to cut accurate mortises.

For long tenons cut on the FMT I quickly learned to limit the router plunge depth to less than 1" and then go back at the desired depth to cut the remainder of the tenon. The FMT vacuum port clogs if the chips are longer than about 1". Cut the long tenons in two passes at increasing depth and there is no clogging problem. I also added a 6" X 12" piece of 1/8" clear Lexan to the top plate so it hangs down in front of the jig using mating pieces of Velcro. This is NOTso you can watch the cut, which is dangerous. I use it to keep most of the chips off of me when cutting the front side of the tenon. The vacuum seems to catch some of them after the bounce off the Lexan, but it's primary purpose is to keep most of them from hitting me.

Charley

[Shawn Pixley]

Once again I am late to the thread. I do mortises many ways. For most non-large mortises, I will chop by hand or use my domino. For large mortises (like say the shoji doors I will be making), I use my powermatic benchtop mortiser. The secret I have found is to use good bits that are kept sharp. Also when they get hot, stop and let them cool. I get very clean cuts from my mortiser unlike the ragged edge you report. I favor the LV mortiser bits and I sharpen them inside and out. I don’t know if I have photos of the last door mortises I made. I’ll check.

[Julie Moriarty]

What I've learned is the benchtop mortiser isn't what I thought it was when I bought it some 7 years ago. I had read about needing good quality Japanese chisels so I bought the Powermatic premium chisels. All total it was a $700 investment because I thought I would be getting the same results often seen in videos. What I didn't know at the time was the importance of locking in the board so there is no movement as you work through the mortise. The PM701 cannot do that out of the box.

I've also learned the router is a far more accurate tool to use if you have an accurate jig. The only drawback is it can't cut square corners and that was why I thought a mortiser was the way to go. But what dawned on me, as I thought this whole effort through, was this was more about achieving a hand cut look that it was about anything else. And it you are making blind mortises, what difference does it make if the corners are square or round? You are the only one who will ever know.

I suppose if I had a full size mortiser and something like Powermatic's tenoning jig (see below), it might be fun to make mortise and tenon frames because the frustration levels would be kept to a minimum. :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nDRKA4xHV0

[Warren Lake]

saddly they made the bit sizes undersize on those Japanese chisels. I had bought Wadkin before which fit perfectly, they didnt work fantastic but were fine but were too expensive and too much of a pain to get from England to the US and purchased from there. Wish Lee Valley had had a person who knew their stuff when they ordered 1000's of them.

[Jim Morgan]

saddly they made the bit sizes undersize on those Japanese chisels. I had bought Wadkin before which fit perfectly, they didnt work fantastic but were fine but were too expensive and too much of a pain to get from England to the US and purchased from there. Wish Lee Valley had had a person who knew their stuff when they ordered 1000's of them.

Hmm, just mic'd my 1/2 LV hollow chisel - came in at 0.501" Not sure why it should matter anyway, since tenons can always be cut to fit mortises.

[roger wiegand]

Undersize relative to what? Have to admit I've never measured them. I make the mortises and then cut the tenons to fit on the table saw, trimming with a shoulder plane as necessary. Nothing in the process demands a particular size.

[Brian Holcombe]

I believe square cornered tenons are appealing in industry because the methods of making accurate tenons quickly leave you with a square tenon. I am certain that the methods applied to making tenons with a router can be quite rapid, but by comparison I really doubt they're as fast as a tenoner or tenoning setup on a shaper.

I also saw a video of a Lari & Lari CNC swing chisel machine, it cut a double mortise with haunch in something like 20 seconds. That's pretty sweet and I presume for that purpose it is still quite common to see square cornered mortise and tenons on window sashes. I knocked apart one of the windows in my 90's era home and it is was joined with double mortise and tenons, quite nice especially for a quick product.

[Warren Lake]

It matters that the chisel sits centered and it wont if its machined undersize. I think that aspect is not too bad but been a while and would need to check pretty sure its close.

It matters that the auger is machined to size or the allen screw will push it to the side and it will wobble. The answer after we have never had any complaints before (once again im the only one who ever complains about stuff ) the answer was mortise machines have Quills. My answer no they dont, some do and some use collets, there is this little thing we used to have 1/8, 3/16, 1/4 etc. Wadkin fits perfect so does Forest and any others US made I have,

[Joe Calhoon]

Warren is referring to fit of the auger to the collet and possibly the fit of the chisel to the collet. I ordered some of the premium Japan chisels from the UK because I needed metric sizes and could not locate any here. The chisels fit my Wadkin collets fine but the augers were all loose and as he says that can cause problems. I took Warrens advise and shimmed with tape to help a little until I have some collets custom made. Wish I could fit a drill chuck on the Wadkin but just not enough room. Unfortunately one of the augers came with the shank reduced down midway right where the set screw hits. see picture.
I have a couple imperial chisel sets from LV and one of the augers are sloppy on those.

I had some original Wadkin and a few Greenlee chisel sets with the machine but prefer the Japanese chisels after learning how to sharpen them.
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[Joe Calhoon]

I believe square cornered tenons are appealing in industry because the methods of making accurate tenons quickly leave you with a square tenon. I am certain that the methods applied to making tenons with a router can be quite rapid, but by comparison I really doubt they're as fast as a tenoner or tenoning setup on a shaper.

I also saw a video of a Lari & Lari CNC swing chisel machine, it cut a double mortise with haunch in something like 20 seconds. That's pretty sweet and I presume for that purpose it is still quite common to see square cornered mortise and tenons on window sashes. I knocked apart one of the windows in my 90's era home and it is was joined with double mortise and tenons, quite nice especially for a quick product.

Brian,
Square corner is common in the door and window industry but with the big cnc routers and machining centers we are now seeing rounder mortises cut with large router bits and the square tenons being rounded on the machine with the same bit.

We do slot and tenon on windows with a tenoner and that is very quick. The pictures I showed upstream were for inner rails and mulls. I have double knives for the Maka but for just a few mortises it is easier to set up the Wadkin. I can just put a tenoned piece in the machine and line the chisel up by eye and mark the length of mortise and just go to the mark. The Maka is fussy to set and has automatic feed which is not ideal for easing in to see if you are set. Its great for production and very quick and clean.

We toured some door and window shops in the UK and they were mostly using the Centauro and Lari CNC mortisers. The big advantage of those is they can change size quickly, haunch and do double tenons with a single bit. Some even have a built in HC mortiser for small work and TDL mortises.

We usually use the shaper sliding table for tenoning custom door work. Easy to set and good for one off.

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[Jim Dwight]

I think plunge routers definitely make better looking mortises but I think mortises I make with my Jet hollow chisel mortiser are strong and I can make them quicker than using the plunge router and jigs. But cope and stick router bits are faster still and I have not had any problem with the strength of the little stub tenons. I did a whole kitchen including some doors nearly two feet wide with raised panels and they held up.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your post. And wow, that is a treat to behold! Beautiful setup.

[Marty Schlosser]

Hey, Brian,

sorry to the OP, but I have to ask which "right bits" are you talking of. I'm presently trying out a few mills from my Domino, which hold a lot of promise. I'll let you know how they work out. But in the meantime, which bits are your favourite?

Again, my apologies to the OP.


This should probably be narrowed to specific choices.

CNC swing chisel mortiser is likely the fastest and most accurate. :D

I've chopped a considerable number of mortises by hand, which can at times be faster than machine but certainly relies heavily upon experience.

I've used a router guide set to knife gauge marks and it works well and is extremely fast with the right bits.

I have recently added a Felder FD-250, with the right bits its pretty quick and certainly it can be extremely accurate which is wonderful. It can be outfitted with a square chisel but for the moment I'm simply squaring up the ends.

[John TenEyck]

Julie, the OP, is a hobbiest. She likely doesn't and won't have access to a CNC or industrial mortiser, as nice as they may be. A Domino is likely the top end of what a hobbiest could justify to make mortises. Still, it's a one trick pony, though very good at what it does. The good news is a router is cheap and cuts beautifully smooth and precise mortises and does so quite quickly and easily if you pare it with something like my horizontal router mortiser. For a few mortises nearly any approach works, but once you start cutting dozens and dozens of them, like you would need to for a set of kitchen doors, you want something that is easy to use, fast, accurate, requires no clean up, and is safe. The HRM does and is all that. You can make intergral tenons with the HRM, but there is almost never a good reason to do so. Loose tenons are faster and easier.

And if you need to cut angled or compound angled mortises, like for chairs, what then? Same answer.


John

[Julie Moriarty]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hey, Brian,

sorry to the OP, but I have to ask which "right bits" are you talking of. I'm presently trying out a few mills from my Domino, which hold a lot of promise. I'll let you know how they work out. But in the meantime, which bits are your favourite?

Again, my apologies to the OP.

So far pretty happy with a spiral upcut, but I have been tempted to try a compression bit as well. Curious to see how you like the domino bits.

[Joe Calhoon]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.


I don’t think anyone was implying that you buy a CNC mortiser, at least I wasn’t. You asked a pretty general question about mortising methods and machines that brought forth a lot of discussion of different types of machines. I cannot justify a CNC mortiser in my works either but I find discussing them and many other types of mortisers interesting.
Sorry that it offended you.

[Joe Calhoon]

So far pretty happy with a spiral upcut, but I have been tempted to try a compression bit as well. Curious to see how you like the domino bits.

I would also like to know how those bits work in a horizontal mortiser. The Domino makes a cleaner more precise mortise than I was ever able to achieve with end mills or mortising bits. I don’t know if is the cutting action of the Domino or the bit design that makes it good. Maybe a combination of both.

[Larry Edgerton]

If the fact you don't do production work as a profession makes one a hobbyist, then I guess the majority of us here are hobbyists. I don't agree with that perspective. There are degrees of skill between hobbyist and professional.

To judge one based on what one can afford to purchase is in no way representative of one's skills. Owning a CNC machine does not make one a professional or an accomplished woodworker. It's what you can achieve with what you have that defines your skill level.


I think I get what you mean, hell, I know hobbiests that are better than me. They would starve to death if they did it for a living, but they are good.

My 2 cents. Never liked loose tenons in end grain, just not as strong as a machined tenon, especially in smaller parts. Never used a benchtop morticer so can't help you there. But if they are a little rough, use epoxy, it likes rough.

You do nice work Julie, I am sure what ever you do will be just fine.

Joe, you are sure getting a lot of use out of that old Martin. Thought it might end up being a garage queen, but no way!

[David Kumm]

Larry, I always noticed that the mortise in end grain was slightly different in size than one made in the long grain ( terminology may be poor ) when I used the FD 250. It didn't matter what type of bit but because of that I sometimes used epoxy or a rasp to compensate on the narrow one. The Bacci with a spiral end mill seems to deliver a clean and uniform mortise provided I set the feed to not be too aggressive. I've not had a floating tenon fail that I can tell but interior doors don't get a lot of abuse. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Dave, I noticed the loose fit also when we built with a slot mortiser. We did a lot of doors that way and never any joint failures. That is where the Domino is impressive, the fit and precision is good. We still use dowels (gasp) on Euro doors and a lot of interior doors with never a joint failure there either. You have to be careful to get good fitting dowels and rot resistant ones for exterior.
I think true square edge M&T is nice for traditional work. I use it for historic door and window work and hope to build some arts and craft type furniture for myself using nice joinery. Using a sliding table shaper and tenoner for this drives for a square edge mortise.

Larry, its true hobbiests produce some of the best work. It is my goal to become one but failing miserably so far.
l have so much time and money in that shaper I have to use it...

[John TenEyck]

I've had the same experience, David; sometimes the end grain mortise is slightly different in size than the corresponding ones in edge grain. It seems more related to wood species than anything else, but I'm not sure. In any case, I fit the loose tenons individually into their respective mortises and a few swipes on the end of those that go into the tight mortises is all that's needed. And, like you, I've never had a loose tenon fail. I'd like to see the data, Larry, that supports your claim that integral tenons are stronger. I could just as easily state that a loose tenon could be stronger than an integral one because it fits well while many integral tenons do not. Having to make up for a poor fit or rough surfaces by using epoxy is just masking an underlying problem. I developed the HRM to solve those problems, so that making M&T joints was an easy process for anyone, first time, every time.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

Historically mortises are not smooth on the interior.

[John TenEyck]

Historically mortises are not smooth on the interior.

Epoxy and hot hide glue might test stronger when the mating surfaces are rough, but Titebond and similar glues used by most folks are strongest when the mating surfaces are smooth. If one wants to use historical methods they should use glues compatible with that approach.


John

[Brian Holcombe]

I do often use hide glue. I don’t use epoxy.

Do you honestly think that some light fuzz from a mortising bit is really going to cause a failure. If it does, I would think the engineering is a concern.

[Warren Lake]

ive measured Joes tennons and they are ubber accurate like within a thou. Mine look like they were made by a swiss army knife. Inside the joint being pretty is irrelevant the tolerances are what matters and the glue will hold as well on mine with some bat ear cuts from Dadoes if that was how I made them that time as Joes will. THe difference is on mine one door will be perfectly flush at the rail and style the next door might be out .003 of flush so they are not repeatedly perfect. Ive put a dial on my mortiser and seen in clamping you can deflect the heavy rear fence. Thats on an 1,800 lb machine that is the Rolls of those machines. The clamping could have been designed better, when you push on something have the push come from the place the part is sitting not another place. I want to replace the clamping with pneumatic run from a foot pedal that being attached to the rear table the part sits on not the base of that table in front of it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Julie, I use a hollow chisel mortise, I make the tenons on the shaper.

The chisel mortise makes mortises as accurate as they need to be, could a router be more accurate?

Maybe, however it depends upon your jigs. When I hand cut mortises they work just fine as well.

I find the hollower chisel mortise to be quieter, and the dust doesn't spray everywhere...............Of course, I hate routers and don't use one so maybe I'm biased...Happy New Year, may your tools always be sharp...........regards, Rod.

[John TenEyck]

I do often use hide glue. I don’t use epoxy.

Do you honestly think that some light fuzz from a mortising bit is really going to cause a failure. If it does, I would think the engineering is a concern.

No, of course not. I took your earlier post to suggest that there is an advantage to mortises not being smooth. There isn't. Historical methods produced rough sided mortises because they can't make smooth ones, not because it was or is an advantage.

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

[mreza Salav]

I have had a chisel mortiser, it works Ok but didn't like it; sold it.
I've used router jig. The following is easy to make and accurate with a spiral up-cut bit. Just take lite passes.

375060375059375061

Have had Festool 500 and now 700. It's accurate and versatile. If I want super accurate joints I use dowels with good doweling jig.

[Brian Holcombe]

No, of course not. I took your earlier post to suggest that there is an advantage to mortises not being smooth. There isn't. Historical methods produced rough sided mortises because they can't make smooth ones, not because it was or is an advantage.

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

I would not describe it as 'rough' but they're a combination shearing and crossgrain cut, so they're rougher than it produced by a router. If done correctly they're strong.

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_6917.jpg

https://brianholcombewoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_6918.jpg


Pretty sure I cut the haunches with a router on these (I don't remember, but it looks like it from the pattern on the side).

[Joe Calhoon]

I have no clue why anyone uses a chisel mortiser today, with all of their maintenance and set up issues, when there are far easier ways to cut them.

John

John, I originally bought my bench top HC for TDL and other small mortises in door and window work. As mentioned that machine with the fixed table, flimsy stops and fences did not work out very well. I purchased the used Wadkin for about the same money Julie paid for her bench top HC and tooling. I am finding that I like it for a lot more uses than ever expected. There is really not much to keeping those running sharp and this one is real easy to set up for one off. Yes the cut is a little fuzzy. Not any better or worse than the horizontal slot mortiser. Not as good as the Maka or Domino. I have a portable chain mortiser and that one is pretty fuzzy but has the ability to go deep. I am sure your router setup is good but like many here I have a aversion to routers and their noise. Just curious if the router will punch out a 1" wide X 5" deep mortise for a exterior mortise lock? The Maka and chain do these easy and the HC not bad either. I still think the Domino is the best all around mortiser for a home shop if you can only have one.
375083
375084

Here are some examples of mortises cut with the Maka
375085
375086

[John TenEyck]

Hi Joe,

Those are pretty nice mortises. Still not as nice as what you get from a router, however, which requires no maintenance. When the bit gets dull, after many hundreds of mortises, just change it for a new one. With regards to your machine, not many hobby woodworkers could justify that much space in their shop for such a beast, or find one for what you apparently paid for it. My HRM is reasonable small and very portable. Not as small as a Domino but it can do a lot more and it might cost you $100 to make vs. $1200. Can it make a 1" x 5" deep mortise? Maybe, never tried. You can buy 1/2" end mills at least 6" long. But for my work a 1/2" x 2-1/2" deep mortise is the max. I need to make with the HRM. I suspect that would be the largest most hobby woodworkers would every need, too. I have a slot mortiser on my J/P and I can make really big ones with that for exterior doors. But comparing the two machines is like comparing apples and oranges however. The HRM is easy and fast to set up and use. The slot mortiser is hard and slow both to set up and to use. As such it gets used only when absolutely necessary. In fact, I leave it set up for door mortising and use the HRM for everything else.

Commercial shops like yours need big rugged machines, often dedicated to a single task. I get that. Hobbiests have limited resources in all regards, money and space being the two most common ones. My machine was designed from that perspective. It's the best $50 (what it cost me out of pocket) I have every spent on woodworking. I talk about it like a broken record because I see so many other woodworkers struggle with making mortises, and follow the same path of frustration with machines and processes that are inherently flawed. Is a router noisy? Of course, but I use one for all kinds of tasks anyway. And it's no worse than running my DC and J/P, something no one seems to complain about. I got over the noise very quickly when I saw how easy and fast it is to make mortises with it, and how perfectly the mating parts fit together, every time, w/o fuss.

John

[George Bokros]

What are the opinions on the horizontal router table from MLCS Woodworking. I can see where it could be improved with a T-Track in the table and perhaps some sort of attachment to provide the X & Y axis of the mortiser John built.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Joe,

Those are pretty nice mortises. Still not as nice as what you get from a router, however, which requires no maintenance. When the bit gets dull, after many hundreds of mortises, just change it for a new one. With regards to your machine, not many hobby woodworkers could justify that much space in their shop for such a beast, or find one for what you apparently paid for it. My HRM is reasonable small and very portable. Not as small as a Domino but it can do a lot more and it might cost you $100 to make vs. $1200. Can it make a 1" x 5" deep mortise? Maybe, never tried. You can buy 1/2" end mills at least 6" long. But for my work a 1/2" x 2-1/2" deep mortise is the max. I need to make with the HRM. I suspect that would be the largest most hobby woodworkers would every need, too. I have a slot mortiser on my J/P and I can make really big ones with that for exterior doors. But comparing the two machines is like comparing apples and oranges however. The HRM is easy and fast to set up and use. The slot mortiser is hard and slow both to set up and to use. As such it gets used only when absolutely necessary. In fact, I leave it set up for door mortising and use the HRM for everything else.

Commercial shops like yours need big rugged machines, often dedicated to a single task. I get that. Hobbiests have limited resources in all regards, money and space being the two most common ones. My machine was designed from that perspective. It's the best $50 (what it cost me out of pocket) I have every spent on woodworking. I talk about it like a broken record because I see so many other woodworkers struggle with making mortises, and follow the same path of frustration with machines and processes that are inherently flawed. Is a router noisy? Of course, but I use one for all kinds of tasks anyway. And it's no worse than running my DC and J/P, something no one seems to complain about. I got over the noise very quickly when I saw how easy and fast it is to make mortises with it, and how perfectly the mating parts fit together, every time, w/o fuss.

John

John,
i am sure your router setup works as you say it does. I just do not agree with your statement about chisel mortisers. I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises. Both at the pro and hobby level. Brian’s well made furniture in his pictures is a good example.

Will your setup do integral tenons like the multi- router? I have seen those in a couple studio furniture shops and seems like a good machine, especially for chairs where a intergal tenon is better.

The Maka has a router mortiser built into it. It is a heavy duty router with threaded bits. It cuts as clean as the Maka and good for small hardware mortises up to about 2” deep.

[John TenEyck]

John,
i am sure your router setup works as you say it does. I just do not agree with your statement about chisel mortisers. I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises. Both at the pro and hobby level. Brian’s well made furniture in his pictures is a good example.

Will your setup do integral tenons like the multi- router? I have seen those in a couple studio furniture shops and seems like a good machine, especially for chairs where a intergal tenon is better.

The Maka has a router mortiser built into it. It is a heavy duty router with threaded bits. It cuts as clean as the Maka and good for small hardware mortises up to about 2” deep.


Yes, for those who prefer integral tenons, the HRM will cut them, of any size and without the need for templates like the Multi Router or Wirth machine requires. There are photos of that in the links. I personally don't see the need to make square ended mortises but for those that do, you can easily square up the end of a routed one with a chisel.
I've been using loose tenons almost exclusively for 20+ years. I don't every recall having one fail. I built a set of kitchen chairs 20 years ago with loose tenons and TB II.
They are neither clunky nor overly beefy. I use them daily. They are as sound today as when new.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4ZYx0Pm5Qc_3fxf4kZ_efKJDhlqW9w7UEN8O6q6oUVP8Xo8ckd aFtihYY267KPmhornzZ17jcWSy2KWUTmbHw6RiwW-nA1-2LaT_WQk3lzWea4SwG2a9MhCd9hmRV448l1pdLeVJu5tpTM88j i7YQi2x9f3VP1shJ4IKCSqZtmQKGVAoFco6MVGRAI3R49bgJOy p-TJNzydXIXxf33b6-Fbm2k7W_C6OEsMydi2VblroXXOXMYbxKsbo9kI8A52saTZjrMU PWEF9gGb_cy1r1E3jEp4HEU48fgxScfE3cAkWgyfwOf_CORI_B LU7V1p58zrCiMFoy6hkiEI4Wnqms46b3YG1iAM3VpagZuppHsV pr3k_TE8uH3O4vkFYtSUaEQTEv_tYGfe1pYtY1FWiCHKMaE6i3 ZTpiMj9NSBjmyIUlC68uJrZkGuThC3iVK_p7JbEZ0sYABNUNWR 752rsgPaPYi-4U8Wk66a5TRA2Xrot9pmCY3shWk4wdssTv3IzKZxG7iwSKvFeE qQ8234MAUhJrm8O5IWj91txiFn66A0cWMy9qXmyXqcOv-R_rsHVnbHdiN2seHQP5mKZnWv5rAOPeR9shSbQ0crD021fSNRE lkVxMHAXiuQEL0fn_ymZ6GJLGDitVaZYcGprEVebBTaNpRMJDT psQg=w800-h600-no

John

[Derek Cohen]

I think there is a lot of work that calls for square end mortises.

I posted earlier my preference for a router based on its easier upkeep and reliability over a mortiser. I use a mortice chisel as often as a plunge router when forming mortices. When I do use a router, I take an extra minute to square up the ends with a chisel. It takes the same or less time to do this as to round the tenon to fit a rounded mortice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[peter gagliardi]

If you don't have the room, then a slot mortiser that is router based makes sense.
All of the machines discussed so far will cut accurate enough mortises that once glued will hold better than the wood fibers surrounding it.
However, saying that a router is more accurate, is quicker to set up, makes joints quicker, and has better or less upkeep than a dedicated chisel mortiser is in my opinion flawed.
First and foremost, induction motors don't even have to try to be able to outlast a universal motor- it is inherent in the design- it just will.
Then, there are the bearings- super high speed small bearings that are sealed in a router cannot possibly last longer than the much,much larger open, and sometimes oiled, or greasable bearings used in a stationary machine. Just look up the load and hour ratings to failure, again, by design.
There is currently an aweful lot of the worlds woodwork - furniture and millwork alike that was done with a hollow chisel machine, I would almost bet the majority of shop made goods that have mortises were produced that way over the last century and a quarter.
John is hawking pretty hard about his design of a router mortiser, and trying to sell plans, which is fine by me, but if that system is that good, quick and accurate, businesses would have developed and adopted it 125 years ago.
Businesses, and the free market are pretty good at analyzing the cost/benefit side of the equation, and they wouldn't survive long with shoddy work, lots of machine upkeep, or long setups.
I think history backs the hollow chisel mortiser as an accurate, and fast method of producing quality joinery with reliable and fast setup by a skilled operator.
I have 2 hollow chisel mortisers, and 2 chain mortisers, along with the large Domino- essentially a router based mortiser.
The Domino lives in it's box, until there is an odd job that the others can't do.
It is a good and accurate machine, but it is not in my mind fast enough or versatile enough for production work.

[Jim Andrew]

Just received a new MLCS catalog in the mail, and it has a horizontal router table with a mortising attachment for about 300, if anyone is interested.

[John TenEyck]

If you don't have the room, then a slot mortiser that is router based makes sense.
All of the machines discussed so far will cut accurate enough mortises that once glued will hold better than the wood fibers surrounding it.
However, saying that a router is more accurate, is quicker to set up, makes joints quicker, and has better or less upkeep than a dedicated chisel mortiser is in my opinion flawed.
First and foremost, induction motors don't even have to try to be able to outlast a universal motor- it is inherent in the design- it just will.
Then, there are the bearings- super high speed small bearings that are sealed in a router cannot possibly last longer than the much,much larger open, and sometimes oiled, or greasable bearings used in a stationary machine. Just look up the load and hour ratings to failure, again, by design.
There is currently an aweful lot of the worlds woodwork - furniture and millwork alike that was done with a hollow chisel machine, I would almost bet the majority of shop made goods that have mortises were produced that way over the last century and a quarter.
John is hawking pretty hard about his design of a router mortiser, and trying to sell plans, which is fine by me, but if that system is that good, quick and accurate, businesses would have developed and adopted it 125 years ago.
Businesses, and the free market are pretty good at analyzing the cost/benefit side of the equation, and they wouldn't survive long with shoddy work, lots of machine upkeep, or long setups.
I think history backs the hollow chisel mortiser as an accurate, and fast method of producing quality joinery with reliable and fast setup by a skilled operator.
I have 2 hollow chisel mortisers, and 2 chain mortisers, along with the large Domino- essentially a router based mortiser.
The Domino lives in it's box, until there is an odd job that the others can't do.
It is a good and accurate machine, but it is not in my mind fast enough or versatile enough for production work.

Geez, Peter, my PC 690 router is now over 25 years old and still running despite the abuse I've unleashed on it. How durable do you want for $150? And when it gives up I'll get another. But it's just a motor. The important end of the business is the cutter, a simple, cheap router bit. They cut hundreds and hundreds of mortises before getting dull. When they do, you change it in 2 minutes and are back in business. None of that sharpening of the chisel, or bit, adjusting, etc., required of a chisel mortiser.

If you had read closely or looked at the webpage I linked to you would know that the plans to my HRM are FREE. I hate seeing others suffer with the typical chisel mortisers offered to hobbiests. If you cared to look at my machine you would quickly see that it is in essence a JDS Multi Router that only moves in the X-Y plans. The Z-axis moves too, incrementally. The Multi Router has been around for, I don't know, 25 years or more. It's an incredibly versatile machine. The Wirth machine was essentially the same thing but it used an induction motor at one time. Later, they changed to a router to get higher speed and improved mortise quality. The problem with both is they are too expensive for most hobbiests to justify. What I did was distill it down to something cheap and simple to build, yet is still accurate, safe, and easy to use. And, yes, it's very fast too, and you don't have to be a skilled operator to get excellent results the first time, every time.

In full disclosure, I do sell an upgraded version of my machine. But I have never mentioned it here until now. Since you poked me I'll tell you that the first machine I ever sold was to a pro woodworker. He used to cut mortises with a big floor model chisel mortiser. He has told me several times that his HRM saves him many hours when cutting mortises for a kitchen's worth of faceframes. I'd be happy to put you in touch with him directly if you'd like to verify my claim.


John

[Julie Moriarty]

I think I get what you mean, hell, I know hobbiests that are better than me. They would starve to death if they did it for a living, but they are good.

I don't consider woodworking a hobby. To me it's a necessity. I can't afford to buy what I build. Woodworking to me is the same as doing electrical work, plumbing, drywall, tile, etc. It comes with owning a house and improving and maintaining it. The model ship I'm building is a hobby. But it's probably going to take me many years to finish because owning and remodeling a 55 year old house is a full time job.

After I learned the results I'm getting with what FWW's "Best Benchtop Mortiser" is typical for benchtop units, I abandoned the idea of making frame and panel doors and door fronts for the kitchen cabinets because I want a life, too. I don't need to add any more work. I have enough. It's to the point I'm in serious need of a vacation!

[George Bokros]

After I learned the results I'm getting with what FWW's "Best Benchtop Mortiser" is typical for benchtop units,

For those of us that do not get FWW what unit is that??

[Chris Hachet]

I have a jet mortiser. At first I didn't like it, until I learned to sharpen the chisels properly..............that takes some research and practice and is worth the time if you intend to mae a lot of M&T's.............other wise I would do the router thing.

Not forcing the bit and letting the machine do its job is critical also. Once you get in rythem with the machine, it works well enough.

[Warren Lake]

If you have a drill press then with an attachment you can do mortises. The 1800 lbs chain chisel machine works better in a few ways but the General drill press and attachment was simple and easy, the most negative is you dont move a table with a handle to move your part, rather you move the part slide it on the drill press table. Clamping is not as good but i could have improved that huge and pretty easily. Point is i had a drill press already all I needed was the General Mortise attachment and the chisel and that is simple and was accurate as well. Im going back 35 years for that so we didnt know about chisel tweaking at that time, the out of the box not that ready for use wasnt known or talked about. So had we been thinking that way we could have improved what we bought.

I have horizontal on combo machines. I still prefer a chisel as dont have to bend over to look at lines as you do on the horizontal machines. With a vertical mortiser I can pull up a chair and sit and see my lines perfectly and easily and be comfortable. You also dont take up any more space if you have a drill press already.

375333

[Peter Kelly]

Panto Router! This way you can make mortises, tenons, dovetails with the same setup https://hybridpantorouter.com/about

[Julie Moriarty]

For those of us that do not get FWW what unit is that??
Fine Woodworking magazine. They review tools, as many magazines do, and gave top honors to the Powermatic PM701 and one of the General International benchtop mortises.

[Brian Holcombe]

I see generally the PM mortisers get really good reviews. However I have a friend who really does not like his and detailed all of the problems he's had with his unit, so instead I bought an FD250 which offers a setup for use with a hollow chisel or can simply be used as a slot mortiser. It works great as a slot mortiser and before long I should have the hollow chisel setup as well so I'm happy to provide some insights on the HC aspect of it once I cross that bridge.

[Keith Weber]

If you cared to look at my machine you would quickly see that it is in essence a JDS Multi Router that only moves in the X-Y plans. The Z-axis moves too, incrementally. The Multi Router has been around for, I don't know, 25 years or more. It's an incredibly versatile machine. The Wirth machine was essentially the same thing but it used an induction motor at one time. Later, they changed to a router to get higher speed and improved mortise quality. The problem with both is they are too expensive for most hobbiests to justify. What I did was distill it down to something cheap and simple to build, yet is still accurate, safe, and easy to use.

In full disclosure, I do sell an upgraded version of my machine.

John

And there it is!

John - please give it a break already! You've mentioned how great your little MDF wonder tool is, and how you don't understand why anyone would want to use anything but, but it grew annoying after the first 5 or 6 times you brought up the machine that you "designed". Is it even within the forum rules to sell stuff as a business here?

Anyway, the bigger issue here is probably the fact that you just basically admitted to making a cheap copy of a JDS MultiRouter. I'd check your patent laws if I were you. You are not allowed to infringe on patents of other products, including making a copy for your own use, let alone selling copies, or promoting other people to make copies by supplying plans. You could easily be sued by JDS if they held active patents on your copy machine. You would lose that case in a heartbeat. Being "too expensive" is not an excuse to break the law by infringing on patents. Also, being oblivious to laws does not exempt you from them.

Yes, we all build things as part of our hobby that could potentially infringe on patents, but it is generally overlooked by the people who hold the patents. Your posts in this forum, however, just draw attention to how ignorant you are on patent laws and how persistent you are on helping people to not buy a JDS MultiRouter.

Just thought I'd open your eyes a bit to reality. You can either take it for what it is, or continue on your present path. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

[George Bokros]

Hmmm -- Patent infringement check out this......

https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/horizontal_router_table.html?zoom_highlight=horizo ntal+router+table#mortising_top_anchor

I think John is safe and his I believe is better than the MLCS.