Am I about to be Paypal scammed?

[dustin wassner]

I am selling a piece of equipment from my location in upstate NY. The buyer is in Hawaii and found it on craigslist.

I know that the buyer's address on their paypal account needs to match the one being shipped to for seller protection.

The issue here is that they want to have me crate it and they will have their shipper pick it up.

I spoke with them on the phone for a while and they seem legit. I also checked out their business websites and their names are listed so that all appears legit as well.

They will be sending the paypal funds before it is shipped, obviously.

what are your thoughts?

[Frederick Skelly]

I think I'd pass, myself. There are some resemblances between this and other scams I have heard of.
1. You crate and their shipper picks it up. That often seems to be an element, though Im not sure why.
2. They are a very long way away from you and monitoring your local craiglist.
3. I can set up a fake website - seems like they could too
4. Con artists make their living by talking good. So the phone call may or may not be a reliable indicator.

But I can be completely wrong. (Remember - this is free advice.)

So I guess it comes down to "Do you need to sell it badly enough to take a gamble?"

With luck, it'll turn out just fine.

Fred

[Dimitrios Fradelakis]

Run and run fast. Obvious scam.

[dustin wassner]

Just got off the phone with paypal. They will cover if shipped to the address on the transaction. Problem is, since the buyer is using their shipping, they can change the address it is being sent to after it is picked up.

After telling the buyer that I would rather just put up a quick ebay listing for them to buy through, they said that would work. So, it appears that they are legit...

[michael langman]

Dustin, I was selling a boat on craigslist last summer and a fellow emailed me saying he wanted the boat and not to sell it. He was in a far away place and was going to have the boat delivered to him through his own company. He inclided the 3-4--.00 in the check to me to pay his movers when they showed up at my house.
Everything seemed too good to be true. He sent me a treasurers check, from his company that was online. Everything looked very legitimate. At this point I knew I was being scammed.
I found much evidence of this scam online and through my bank. Were I to cash his check at my bank, I would have been liable for the cost of the check through my bank if it did not go through. The check looked very authentic but was not.
I went through with the sale, to piss the guy off. He called me back to try and scare me, about having his check, which I never cashed.

Be very careful about cashing any checks from far away places. It will cost you if it is fake.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Big difference between the fake scam checks and a pay pal payment. Seems weird that some one would pay to ship something to hawaii, but frankly, the folks with the bogus check schemes are usually asking the seller to wire some refund. Which needs to be wired before the fake check (doesn't) clear. If the outfit has a phone registered in it's name, you are leagues beyond the fake check scams. They always deal by e-mail and never actually talk to folks. Listen, if you stand to make a decent profit, call the police dept in that area in Hawaii to see if any other scams were reported involving that company. They may not have a Dunn and Bradstreet rating, but it so far sounds more legit than bogus. If it is a company, you can check with the Hawaii dept of state, to see if it is a legit registered business, partnership etc. What ever kind of entity it is should have a sales tax number/license there. If a contractor, probably a contractor's license. Home improvement license etc. Do they have a web site, listing with the BBB, etc. Have you actually called the number in the yellow pages/on the web site for them to verify. be straight up with the cops and the buyer and tell them you were leery and you are trying to verify their existence.

And to Mr. langman, How could you be liable for the check if it did not clear, other than a return check fee? As long as you issue no funds or checks until the check clears, the most you could be liable for is the returned check fee. Heck in my law practice, folks gave me checks that did not clear at least once a year. Usually divorce cases where the spouse raided the account about the same time as the check was written. Clients always made good on it. If it was indeed a scam, the guy probably would not have called PO'd about you having his check. He would just print another.

[Sam Murdoch]

Going through PP is pretty much a lock and I don't see the advantage of using eBay in between. BUT - trust your little voice - not mine.

On the other hand if they were sending you a bank check and including EXTRA $$s for you to pay their shipper then I would yell SCAM!

The trick is that the cashiers check will come through and look completely legit. You will very likely be able to take it to your bank and in a few days the funds will be set free. BUT in 2017 banks don't really talk to each other. YOUR BANK will clear the check for you BUT the rock will fall on your head - not theirs - when after a few more days or after 90 days :eek: (this explained to me by several banks and by a fraud officer) it is determined after all that the bank check was a forgery.

Meanwhile you, thinking you have some dollars Plus Extra from your buyer, are amenable to pay the "shipper" from "your" funds - and now you know the rest of the story. Often in these cases the "shipper's" name or business location changes or the pick up date or time keeps changing and then you might be asked to simply send the $$s to the shipper and then they will come pick up, etc. etc.

Trust your little voice and believe that there are scammers out there.

[Matt Day]

Sounds like a scam to me - who in the heck has a shipper?

I was scammed about 15 years ago and I learned to trust that little voice.

Even though you’ve talked to them and they sound legit and all that, just seems odd. Are they paying you the full amount, or the full amount plus another grand or two?

What kind of machine?

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Lots of companies have contracts with "shippers" to get a lower rate. For instance, when dealing with a law firm in Florida, they insisted that I just put the documents in an envelope with their address and an account number in the upper corner. A courier would pick the stuff up. I never paid anyone for shipping. They had the stuff the next day. about ten yrs ago, most documents became faxed or emailed, but a few months before I retired, a shipment of 1400 pages went out the same way, picked up and all I had to do is let the courier service take them. Some companies have contracts with carriers for shipping. To get a special rate, they agree that all their shipping goes through that trucking or freight company. Just two years ago, when i returned a firearm for warranty repair, the manufacturer insisted that I use a certain "shipper" and put their account number on the package. The shipping company (DHL) picked up the package and gave me a receipt for the gun. I did not pay a thing.

I am considering the purchase of a machine on ebay. It is for local pickup only. I can arrange with a freight company to pick it up, crate it (put it on a pallet) and ship it. Right now the I am waiting for them to give me a cost. If we agree on the cost, that company will be my "shipper" If the cost is too high, it is not worth my gas and time to drive 400 miles each way to get the item.

Unlike a fake check, a pay pal payment is much more difficult to "fake" Unlike a fake check, the funds are there and transmitted immediately. Paypal has very limited written procedures for returning funds. I have purchased many items from overseas through pay pal without going through e-bay. Paypal will expect a cut., I have even had my legal fees paid by pay pal. (usually paid by others some distance away for local clients. For instance a grand child's legal bill paid by grandpa in Florida.) The funds are there instantly. If it is a large enough amount, I have had funds electronically auto transferred to my bank account.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I sometimes buy classic cars in the states and ship them to myself. I contract a carrier to pick them up and take them to Tropical Shipping, who takes it to me. That said, I am legit, and I know I am legit, but you are the one taking the risk in this situation. PayPal covers you if shipped to the PayPal address, but you are not shipping it. It's being picked up. The guy can claim he never got it, and claim he has no idea what you're talking about when you say his carrier picked it up.

If you want to go through with the deal, I would insist on a notarized statement that the buyer understands that the item is being sold as-is, where is, and that they are taking posession at your location through their own third party, and waiving right to make a claim beyond point of pickup.

The big red flag to me is they were checking Craigslist in NY, but they are in Hawaii. If I were in Hawaii, I would be checking Craigslist in California. Shipping from NY would be cost prohibitive. I buy cars in Miami and Jacksonville, where the ports are. I bought one in Kansas once and shipping about killed me!

[Roy Petersen]

Going through PP is pretty much a lock
Honestly speaking, it isn't. Most of the time they side with the buyer in disputes, so his caution is warranted. The Ebay play is to get some sort of protection, since they get involved in disputes more than Paypal does, and offer guarantees of a sort.

For me? If it was a large amount (a few hundred on up), I'd have used an escrow service. Escrow.com is one I've used to sell in the past, and it protects at both ends (buyer and seller). There are fees, which you can pay, have the buyer pay or you can split it between you. They take the money and verify from the buyer, you ship/send the item, recipient verifies and they release your funds. Worth the effort.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

There is a pay pal scam but it involves the buyer sending a counterfeit PAypal email saying the funds were deposited. Sometimes they even use the term invisibly deposited. Simple to check your paypal account to see if the funds have been deposited. If your pay pal account shows the deposit, it is good.

To the OP, get the buyer to verify in writing that payment is by pay pal, that they are having the item picked up and by whom. Then get the shipper to sign a receipt for the item. Then you have an enforceable contract. It was delivered as specified by the buyer. Just don't let the item go until your pay pal account shows the funds are in, not an email saying the funds were deposited.

[michael langman]

Perry, All I can tell you is what the bank told me. If they cash a check sent to me, and I walk out of the bank with the money, if the check does not go through they take the money out of my account to cover the check.
There have been too many scams like this and the banks are always the last to take the fall.'
AS to selling something through ebay or pay pal,then they are the ones to lose if the check fails.

[michael langman]

Perry, After discussing this with my wife, it was our credit union and not a bank that said I would be liable for the check amount in case of failure to go through.
As for this scam, I did go through it last summer, and still have the guys check. He called me and threatened me in a stupid voice trying to scare me, and I told him to come speak to me in person if he has the bal...s to.
Look this scam up online and you will understand, when you read about the thousands of people that have been ripped off by these people.

[Frederick Skelly]

Perry, All I can tell you is what the bank told me. If they cash a check sent to me, and I walk out of the bank with the money, if the check does not go through they take the money out of my account to cover the check.

Once upon a time, I had a paycheck bounce the day after I cashed it. The bank called and asked me to return the money. I was younger and did so. (It's a long story that I won't go into detail about on the internet. But today, I'd push back harder.)

With that experience in mind, I find Mike's story to be very possible. The banks do seem to usually "have things their way".

Fred

[Robin Dobbie]

When attempts to scam me have started in a similar way, they ended with the "buyer" sending an email carefully crafted to appear to be from paypal telling me I'd been paid. In reality, no money had been transferred. This was verified by me logging into paypal by going to the site directly by me typing paypal.com and not clicking any links in the "payment" email whatsoever.

I'm not saying you can't still get scammed somehow if you do actually receive funds.

[Wade Lippman]

Most PayPal transactions are covered as long as they follow these requirements. However, there are instances where Seller Protection doesn’t apply:

Claims, chargebacks, or reversals filed because the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one)
Any bets about whether your machine will be different than how it was described?


Moderator... taking the quote marks out of my post kinda makes it meaningless.

[Rich Riddle]

Run, run and after you run away, run further.

[Myk Rian]

When attempts to scam me have started in a similar way, they ended with the "buyer" sending an email carefully crafted to appear to be from paypal telling me I'd been paid. In reality, no money had been transferred. This was verified by me logging into paypal by going to the site directly by me typing paypal.com and not clicking any links in the "payment" email whatsoever.

I'm not saying you can't still get scammed somehow if you do actually receive funds.
All you have to do is put the mouse cursor over any link in the email, and see what the URL is. If it doesn't say https://www.paypal.com/ it's to be considered suspect.
Also, if there are any email addresses to directly contact PP, I haven't found one yet. They do it all through their website.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Well of course, if you cash the check. Had you deposited it and it did not clear and you wrote no checks on it, it would only be a returned check fee. You and every other fake check victim have the opportunity to call the bank on which the check is drawn and ask about problems and often whether the account has sufficient funds to cover the check.. Usually the victims are too greedy to take such precautions.

The thing is, the facts set forth by the OP, have totally nothing to do with the fake check/wired refund scam. Your experience is inapplicable to a pay pal deposit into the OP's account. In that situation the funds are there.

I had a client get a check for a horse to be shipped. What the scammer did not know is that the seller would be in the country where the issuing bank was located. The client presented the check at the guy's bank and it just so happened that the scammer had sufficient money to pay the check. My guy took the $5,000 and upon returning to the states wired the $1,000 refund and no body ever came to get the horse. It all happened in about 48 hours. Most scammers are not stupid enough to use their own off shore accounts. And when they do, they clean out the funds every day. My client made out by sheer coincidence.

[Matt Meiser]

It's likely a variation of the bad check scam. Could be using a stolen credit card, could reverse the payment under buyer protection, could file for a chargeback on their credit card. Point is they will likely overpay and request you issue a refund through an irreversible channels.

Or they could be intent on stealing the machine. A little harder to pull off on something like that but someone ran a scam on a forum I was one where he bought a bunch of gear then reported the charges as fraud to his credit card company. Then it all started showing up on eBay.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

There are red flags that certainly aren't present here. One, no fake check payment. two, it is a company and the OP talked to them. scammers avoid phones like the plague. So far no fake e-mails. If the company checks out with the phone number, the yellow pages, the web site, and the state issued licenses, what could be the problem. The OP should contact the company and get the deal verified in writing by one of the officers listed in the state corporation registry. When the actual pay pal account shows a deposit, the money is there.

Some of you would yell that the sky is falling even on a bright clear blue sunny day. Its a wonder any business ever gets accomplished.

I once paid over full price for a piece of farm equipment several states away just so I could get two parts that were unique to that particular model. I paid slightly more than the asking price so the seller would remove and ship the two parts I needed and he could sell the rest for scrap and keep the money. I told him I would send a check and wait till the check clears for him to send the parts. I even sent him a copy of the cancelled check to verify that it had cleared because his bank was being weird about it. Both of us were happy. Some of you would have had a nervous breakdown and still intentionally screwed up the deal.

If fraudulently purchased stuff showed up on ebay, then the person committed electronic interstate fraud. A felony under federal and state laws and no victim made a proper complaint to ebay or anyone else. Everybody knows somebody whose brother in law's cousin had X happen. I represented a car dealer for 35 years. Do you know how many fools claimed there was a three day right to rescind a car deal? I even offered a $500 payment to anyone of those customers who could give me the citation to the Maryland and/or Pa law that gave this right. No body ever collected the money. Because it does not exist. (There is a three day right as to door to door sales)

[Chuck Wintle]

I am selling a piece of equipment from my location in upstate NY. The buyer is in Hawaii and found it on craigslist.

I know that the buyer's address on their paypal account needs to match the one being shipped to for seller protection.

The issue here is that they want to have me crate it and they will have their shipper pick it up.

I spoke with them on the phone for a while and they seem legit. I also checked out their business websites and their names are listed so that all appears legit as well.

They will be sending the paypal funds before it is shipped, obviously.

what are your thoughts?

To me it does sound like a scam because the method used to get the item is the same.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

How is it different than any ebay sale where it is local pick up of a heavy item and the buyer must contract for pick up and freight. You make no sense. A local company makes injection molding machines. The seller will load it onto a truck, but the pick up and freight are the responsibility of the buyer. If a company is buying from a private citizen would they rely on the private citizen to hire a carrier or use their shipping saavy to get a better rate? There is a service nationwide called Craters and Freighters that will pick up and transport items for out of the area buyers. https://www.cratersandfreightersharrisburg.com/freight-shipping-solutions/?keyword=%2Bfreight%20forwarding%20%2Bcompany&gclid=CjwKCAiA7JfSBRBrEiwA1DWSGyLLmZigIH0kXqA5dWQw 1ZFNdVrNzg13OjKtYYdZhmPL8V4QRl0L0xoC82IQAvD_BwE Ebay will even give buyers estimated freight costs to pick up and transport items.

I guess none of you have ever worked for a common carrier freight service.

[Edwin Santos]

I don't quite understand how the OP's scenario is such an obvious scam to some. Is the red flag the fact that the buyer wants to use their own shipping company?

Isn't the old saying "Buyer Beware", not "Seller Beware"? I don't know a whole lot about Paypal, but is there a method by which you can stipulate that the funds need to be cleared before you ship? If so, then how can the seller get hurt, all the risk is on the buyer's shoulders??? Kind of like what you see when someone requires payment by cashier's check or other immediately available funds.

If you don't trust Paypal, there are other options like Escrow.com which purports to protect both buyer and seller, but I don't know what they charge.

[Ed Aumiller]

1. What are you selling that would make it worth shipping to Hawaii ??
2. What price are you asking that makes it so enticing ??

We know nothing basically about what you are asking without all the details...

First glance it appears to be a scam of some kind...but it could be legit depending on item, price, availability in Hawaii, or any number of factors..

Provide more details...

[Jim Becker]

Ed, the OP is selling a piece of woodworking equipment and it's likely that it's something unique given a buyer is willing to pay for transport so far...it's expensive to get things to Hawaii.

I'm inclined to agree with Perry that there's a whole lot that actually checks out on this particular deal. By itself, the "we'll use our own shipper" might be a flag, but it's not accompanied by the rest of the things typically associated with scam buyers.

[Ed Aumiller]

Jim, you are assuming a lot.... simply put.. we do not know enough to make a reasonable call on if it is a scam or not....
There are a lot of red flags and there appears a lot that is legit..
.
Until the details are revealed, who knows??
We are just assuming we know... and you know what assuming means....

I cannot think of a piece of woodworking equipment that is unique enough to pay shipping from NY to Hawaii that would be worth the effort... especially something requiring an outside shipping firm...
((yes, a lot of you will advise an item that might be worth it... but it will still be assuming until the OP advises more info... ))

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, it might or might not be legit - been a lot of good discussion of both sides here. But like I said in post #2, at the end of the day it really comes down to "Do you need to sell it badly enough to take a gamble?"

Hoping it goes just fine,
Fred

[Roy Petersen]

I don't know a whole lot about Paypal, but is there a method by which you can stipulate that the funds need to be cleared before you ship?No, there isn't. With Paypal, as soon as the money is sent, it's considered as paid. Paypal has a very lax refund policy, however, that long after the fact the buyer can claim something was wrong, or it didn't arrive or what have you. They generally side with the buyer.
The fact he's got his own shipper would make me nervous, in that it's not a "normal" process like you'd expect from someone ordering off an ad. Odd someone would be buying used equipment so far away, and have that set up. I'd personally pass, but that's just me.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Almost every heavy item sold on ebay involves the buyer arranging his own shipping. What do you find it strang?

[michael langman]

I would think if the buyer wanted to wait for all the funds to clear his bank, before the seller let his item go, it might be ok to go through with the sale. That way he really has nothing to lose.
It's a shame dishonest people put good people through this situation.

[Roy Petersen]

Almost every heavy item sold on ebay involves the buyer arranging his own shipping. What do you find it strang?
This wasn't Ebay, it was someone from HI viewing listings on Craig's List in NY state. Unless this is a rare thing to find or one heck of a deal, that's odd enough to raise eyebrows. I don't have experience shipping something heavy enough to crate, so can't speak to the common use of sending your own shipper, but that's the second odd thing, to me.
Maybe it's fine. Maybe.

[Matt Meiser]

Regardless, if you can't prove it was shipped and received by the buyer you aren't eligible for seller protection. Proving you handed it off to the shipper won't be sufficient. Also why you shouldn't accept Paypal for an in-person transaction. All the buyer has to do is tell PayPal you never sent it. They'll freeze funds immediately and find for the buyer when you can't provide proof he got it.

[Jerome Stanek]

I use craigslist tempest that will list every item that I imput from around the country if it is set to

[dustin wassner]

thanks for all the replys everyone. I have decided to move forward with this for a few reasons.

-the family agreed to do the xaction outside of ebay/paypal because of the "return request" risk I explained I did not want to expose myself to
-they are using a bank check, so I can have instant verification done by my bank
-after throwing a quick ebay listing up so that they could buy it through ebay, they did move forward. It was me that canceled the order
-I think it is logical that rural hawaiians are used to having to freight stuff to them. It only seems crazy to me because I live in the lower 48 and never have to deal with it
-and finally, if this is a scam on their part, I think they deserve the lathe. They are really good...

Happy new year everyone.

DW

[Ronald Blue]

If they are willing to do a "bank check" why not an electronic funds transfer? Bank money orders can be faked so verification is a must. They can also have a "stop payment" put on them. The only sure way to guarantee your not being scammed is an EFT.

[dustin wassner]

I don't see the issue. My bank stated they could instantly verify its legitimacy and the funds. The stop payment would have to be done before its being cashed.

To do an EFT, would this not require met to provide them with my bank info? If so, I would feel much more comfortable with a certified check than an eft

[Ronald Blue]

Actually I should have said wire transfer. They are non-stoppable unless it's fraudulent and then that would be on the originating bank. That's the preferred long distance money transfer method. It's non reversible. Once the "send" is initiated it can't be stopped. There is no buyer protection in using a wire transfer. I sold a welder that I crated and took to a dock for pickup but the freight was paid for by the buyer and the money of course via PayPal. If it had been a CL sale then I would have had some real concerns. I don't know what your selling and it doesn't matter to me. Just make sure there is no risk on your part in this transaction.Good luck whatever you decide.

[Ronald Blue]

So did you follow through with this?

[dustin wassner]

I did. They did a bank check and allowed it to clear 14 days. Both theirs and my bank stated that after it was cashed there was no way to put a stop on the funds but the 14 days could be taken as an extra measure. A truck picked the pallet up last week.

[Frederick Skelly]

I did. They did a bank check and allowed it to clear 14 days. Both theirs and my bank stated that after it was cashed there was no way to put a stop on the funds but the 14 days could be taken as an extra measure. A truck picked the pallet up last week.

Good for you. Glad it worked out!

[Ronald Blue]

Good, it sounded sketchy but it's good to know everything went as it should.