Musings on kitchen drawers

[Victor Robinson]

TL;DR: Do the pros around here think clients and people in general still value dovetailed kitchen drawers?

Long version:

I’m going to be remodeling my parents’ kitchen. It’s a moderate sized cabinet job, maybe on the higher-end as far as details and hardware go. Prefinished ply carcasses, inset beaded face frames, applied drawer fronts, blum hardware, painted (thank god).


I’m really torn about drawer material and drawer construction.


On the one hand, plywood drawer boxes are fast to make (I’d probably use lock miters) and using prefinished maple ply and prefinished edge-banding essentially eliminates having to finish the boxes. The only tedious part of using ply would be applying and trimming the edge-banding. It becomes fairly more tedious if I decide to use solid banding because then I’d have to finish it, but that would be the ultimate in durability. One downside to using ply is that I can’t easily get 5/8” prefinished in this area, so I’m limited to 1/2” and 3/4” thicknesses. 3/4” feels a little chunky to me but maybe going 1/2” on smaller drawers and 3/4” on larger would be ok.


Then there’s solid wood drawers (probably poplar) which offer the option for dovetailing. A significant amount of extra time over plywood boxes for prepping and dovetailing the stock, plus the boxes would need to be finished. Would allow for 5/8” thickness which I think is a sweet spot for kitchen drawers. I don’t mind the extra time IF it feels worth to me. My folks (clients) don’t have an opinion about this. My wife has a strong opinion that dovetailed drawers are the ultimate, but it’s not her kitchen.


Since I’m spending so much time on this kitchen, I’d like it to seem/feel as high-end as possible, especially given that the house may be sold in a few years. However, I also don’t want to waste time on a process that may not really add anything to perceived quality. I know the dovetailed drawer box debate is an old one. Just thinking aloud and looking for opinions. I’d especially love to hear from those of you doing pro kitchen work these days in upper mid to high-end homes. Do people still value solid dovetailed drawers like they used to? This is a 4000 sqft home in the SF Bay Area.

[Andrew Seemann]

I'd recommend talking with some local Realtors familiar with the specific market and get their thoughts. They should know what the market is looking for. Plus if they are going to sell soon, it would be a good idea to get familiar and comfortable with some options for agents.

What we as craftsman value isn't always the same as what the general buying public values. For example, in my last house, I did some period-appropriate texturing on the walls, a nice 20s-30s lace pattern. I heard more that a few people walking through say "Gee, that idiot didn't even sand the drywall!" ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!

[Nathan Johnson]

If I saw dovetailed drawers I'd appreciate the effort and recognize the difference.
I'm guessing 99% of the buying public wouldn't know the difference...or care.

[andrew whicker]

I'm visiting my dad for Christmas. His kitchen has 'high end' cabinets from a big box store, for whatever that is worth. They have dovetails (I guess some machines doing a million drawers a second can probably whip them out pretty quick). Him and I are probably the only people that have walked into this house that notice it.

[Erik Christensen]

i think most buyers would notice full extension slides & soft close before drawer box construction. If the drawer boxes are going to be painted I think the dovetails are a lot less noticeable.

Me - I would do the dovetails. I have a leigh jig so they don't take that much time and the boxes seem to assemble easier and stay square with half blind dovetails.

I like bigger drawers that most (kitchen, closets, vanities, etc) - so all mine are 3/4" sides with 1/2" bottoms and undermount slides - it works for me.

[Adam Herman]

mine are stapled together plywood. custom cabs from a local maker that disappeared 90% of the way through the job. as long as they are solid and look pretty good, i don't really think many people will notice. I think the lock miters would be great.

mine are all 3/4 sides and 1/4 bottoms. max width is only about 15 inches and they are about 6 inches deep.

[John TenEyck]

Build what you want. Whoever buys it next will likely change the kitchen anyway. Even if they don't, they are unlikely to pay more or offer less based on how the drawers in the kitchen were constructed.

John

[Jamie Buxton]

My perception is that the only people who notice or care about dovetailed lumber drawer boxes are the woodworkers. Given a choice that includes the cost difference, homeowners go with plywood all the time.

[Richard Mellor]

Victor, I do a lot of kitchens in the bay area and Carmel, most of the homes being in the $2-5 million range. My standard drawer box is very similar to the pre finished plywood one you are suggesting, I use 3/4" edgebanded material. In the last 5 years when homeowners are given the choice they almost always choose the plywood drawer box. In fact we have been asked for dovetails only once.
In the homes that are being sold I am very often in the house at the end when realtors and clients are walking through and not once have dovetail drawers been mentioned. Like the other comments have mentioned, its we as woodworkers that seem to care.

[Jim Becker]

Dovetails are certainly a very nice feature and a strong way for the drawers to be built. I used them in my own kitchen, but in full disclosure, I bought them knocked down from Keystone to save a lot of time so I could focus on the rest of the work. I'd do the same today. Doing a few in the shop is one thing, but a whole kitchen worth is a big time-suck job for a one-person operation, including for a hobbyist, and the cost for knock down is pretty affordable.

I do agree with the advise that if you're doing kitchens professionally, you'll want to understand what the local market expects in the types of homes you'll be working in. There are a lot of drawer systems in high-end cabinetry that are not dovetailed, too. Be comparable to the market or fine a way to make it more valuable to the client to have this feature...as a fee-generating option.

[Brian Holcombe]

I built drawers traditionally using hand cut dovetails for a kitchen. It's a lot of work, but I'm experienced with dovetails and hand work so not much of a time sink.

I attended two parties at the same house which my kitchen is installed in, not one guest who commented on the kitchen asked how the drawers were built and I think they asked more 'woodworking' related questions than would be typical since I was in attendance.

Most are more concerned with function, rightly so, I am concerned with function and how well my work lasts.

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks guys. You've given me a lot more clarity on the issue. I think a few things stand out to me as I'm reading your replies.

1) Laypeople really don't care about dovetails - as I suspected - glad to have confirmation of that from those of you who see a lot of kitchens. And people talking about kitchens.
2) Doing this many drawer boxes will be annoying enough, doing them in solid wood with dovetails will likely be the end of me.
3) If for some reason I do decide to do dovetails, I'll sub out the drawer boxes.
4) There is clearly no reason to do dovetails on the drawer boxes for this project. :cool:

[Julie Moriarty]

Do the pros around here think clients and people in general still value dovetailed kitchen drawers?
I'm not a pro but most who know me consider me a perfectionist. I've built a lot of drawers that friends and neighbors have seen and admired. Only a small fraction have been made with dovetails yet I've never heard a comment on either type drawer construction from anyone about dovetails. What I hear first is comments about soft close slides and the drawer pull. Next is the drawer front, the stain and/or finish. Some comment on the finish inside the drawer. But it's in the opening and closing of the drawer that generates the most comments.

[Bill McNiel]

For drawers in both commercial and residential sheet good commissions I use 1/2" prefinished Maple ply that is edge banded and comes in 8' x 6", 8" or 12" widths. I use #4 dominos that I flush cut for the corner connections. I do offer dovetail connections but have yet to have a customer who is willing to pay the add on cost. I use full extension, soft close undermount slides.

[David Kumm]

i buy boards of laminated maple, 14-24" wide made of glued up 4" strips and any length I need. I mill them down to 5/8. Makes for a nice looking drawer and no more expensive than high end ply. Might be worth checking if you can source. Dave

[Jamie Buxton]

+1 on buying good drawer slides. That’s the thing that impresses most people.

[Jamie Buxton]

Y’know, when I’m looking for craftsmanship in kitchen cabinets, the big red flag is PVC iron-on edgebanding. The stuff does not look like wood. It looks cheap when it is brand new. And in a couple of years it starts to fray off. Yes, it is way less expensive than real wood. That’s an earmark of bad craftsmanship: do it cheap not good.

[Martin Wasner]

I've got an automatic dovetailer. Makes generic dovetail drawers pretty easy to make.

We use solid birch for drawer stock, and Baltic Birch plywood for the bottoms.

We have about five drawer heights that we use on the regular. We'll sort a unit of birch by width next to the rip saw and cut up most of the unit. Then we size full length rips either to size of the finished drawer, or prepare the rips by getting them to the size we need as a glued up part, plus 1/16". After that the rips just go into inventory. We do a final sizing after machining the pins and tails have been cut to remove any tear out. So a 8-1/8" drawer side is machined at 8-3/16", then cut down to final size.

We do our best to make the glue up parts as good looking as possible, but not as much time is put into them as it would be for a door panel

Sometimes if we've got time we'll glue up 100 drawer sides for standard base cabinet sides, so when we're in a bind for time we can just grab and go. It's good to get ahead when you can.

[David Kumm]

I'm just a hobby guy but hated using a dowtail jig due to the time spent and mess made. I found a fairly cheap used Omec 650, single bit machine with four size dovetail choices and pneumatic clamps. I use mainly one size that allows for 9mm ply bottoms to be hidden and seldom change the settings. The four drawer sides take 3-4 minutes. Makes drawers as much fun as they can be- which still isn't a thrill. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Makes drawers as much fun as they can be- which still isn't a thrill. Dave

Do enough of anything, eventually it's like watching paint dry

[David Kumm]

Do enough of anything, eventually it's like watching paint dry


I'm an accountant so familiar with dull. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

I'm an accountant so familiar with dull. Dave

Haha.

I did so many drawers on a Porter Cable jig, I went through numerous routers and actually wore out the template on the jig.

[Jeff Duncan]

My advice, sub them out if you can. Soooooo much cheaper than making them yourself. I still make them for projects that call for it, but most stuff I just buy them. They're clean and ready to install, just makes life a little bit easier. I won't use ply or mdf for a drawer box for a client though, cabinets for my garage or shop, sure, but not for a job. Everyone has to set their own standards of what's acceptable and what's not, and while many guys use them I personally won't.

good luck,
JeffD

[Patrick Walsh]

Buy them.

$40 a piece on average for -refinished maple.

Downside 5/8” from the width and 1’’ from your height from face frame opening for Blum soft close. Figure on 21” glides for standard 24” carcass.

If I was to hand dovetail a whole kitchen. And I will my own I would not put a plied face on. I would make them half blind and inset.

For what it’s worth I make high end custom kitchen cabinets. I hate the idea of machine made dovetails and applied drawer faces but it’s the industry standard and what the average consumer and general public expect and desire from a custom kitchen.

I don’t much admire buying pre made drawer boxes but would prefer them over making my own drawer lock boxes.

[Martin Wasner]

I don't see the appeal of the front being the front of the drawer.

The finishing would be a nightmare on painted cabinets.

I also like the entire drawer interior being the same color. I run birch interiors on my cabinets, having a white oak front with the rest of the drawer being birch would make my OCD bleed. Making the whole drawer white oak would make account hurt.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, I like that Domino method...secure and quite attractive. Different, too.

[Martin Wasner]

Once you're moderately set up, and have a good system, you can make good money on drawers, and there's peace of mind controlling another part of the process.

It does require a healthy capital investment though.

[Victor Robinson]

Bill, I like that Domino method...secure and quite attractive. Different, too.

Agree - I thought about trying that on my last vanity project but chickened out due to time constraints.

Bill - do you get any small gaps or is it pretty much perfect after the flush cut?

[Victor Robinson]

For drawers in both commercial and residential sheet good commissions I use 1/2" prefinished Maple ply that is edge banded and comes in 8' x 6", 8" or 12" widths. I use #4 dominos that I flush cut for the corner connections. I do offer dovetail connections but have yet to have a customer who is willing to pay the add on cost. I use full extension, soft close undermount slides.

Yeah I've used the 1/2" prefin drawer sides - so handy that they are already edge banded. Unfortunately can't get 3/4" that way.

[Jim Becker]

Victor, if I tried that Domino method, I'd probably create shop-made dominos that are normal, solid stock that somehow ties into the project since they would be exposed. It would also insure that the mortise was fully filled. The commercial dominos have edges that are "less than pretty", IMHO, and I'm not sure I'd want to expose them. But I'm also intersted in Bill's input on that.

[Dave Sabo]

My experience has been that people who know / want beaded inset cabinetry know what dovetail drawers are.
For me, it's one of those critical details.


I also agree that for one kitchen it's cheaper, faster and better to outsource the drawers.

[Victor Robinson]

So those of you that prefer solid wood, how do you like to finish the drawers in an efficient manner?

[Lee Schierer]

Many consumers would not know the difference, some would. My daughter and daughter in law certainly would. As others have recommended, build what you feel is the better design. If you sell the house, the house is no longer yours so what the new owners do doesn't matter. The trend these days seems to be that home buyers want their style and it doesn't matter what is there they want to change it to suit their vision, which is often limited by budget. In the drive to make every house "open concept" a lot of good material is going to the land fill.

[Sam Murdoch]

For years and years - as a custom cabinet maker - I have "educated" my clients that - with the refinement and smooth operation of mechanical drawer slides - whether the Blum Tandem types or side mount Accurides types (not the 70s 1 wheel on a side rail version) - dovetails constructed drawers serve no structural purpose but are now merely affectations.

PLEASE NOTE that on furniture pieces that I have built I nearly have always incorporated hand cut dovetail drawer boxes. My argument isn't anti dovetail but that the construction method is overkill for a 5 piece drawer box riding on good mechanical slides.

In cases where I have built a more production 4 piece box - as for office furniture - in which the finished cherry front is the only front of the solid wood or baltic birch drawer box - these, whether on mechanical or wood slides - I have incorporated a sliding dovetail for the connection of the sides to the front piece and the back into the sides.

Finishing these was easy enough especially if the entire box was painted or clear coated. In the situation where I had a painted exterior drawer face but a clear coated box, I finished the inside including the back of the drawer and its edges (so that the dovetail could show :), after all that was the point of this construction - a "dovetail box") then resanded the face and painted it after a tedious bit of taping off.

These days for kitchen/bath cabinetry using mechanical slides - dominos have become my standard 5 piece drawer box construction method now, though for painted boxes I would not hesitate to build using finish screws and glue. My clients have never complained. For those who insist on dovetails I farm out the boxes and charge accordingly. The clients know they are paying extra. Maybe it seems silly to give work away but I just can't stand the tedium of production dovetailing. My 2¢.

[roger wiegand]

I'm about to replace another two glued/stapled drawers in my kitchen that have failed. I hope whatever you do will be better than the shortcuts they guys who built mine took!

[Martin Wasner]

One of the really nice things about soft close slides, people can't slam drawers shut anymore. That little shock in there does a lot for preserving the integrity of a mediocre drawer box.

Doors too. It's way easier on the joinery not having them slam.

[Mel Fulks]

Sam, you have patiently explained the modern reality.

[Bill McNiel]

Victor, if I tried that Domino method, I'd probably create shop-made dominos that are normal, solid stock that somehow ties into the project since they would be exposed. It would also insure that the mortise was fully filled. The commercial dominos have edges that are "less than pretty", IMHO, and I'm not sure I'd want to expose them. But I'm also intersted in Bill's input on that.

I use the Festool manufactured Dominos, they fully fill the mortice with no gaps (possibly because I brush glue in the mortice and on the Domino). I have never experienced any serrated edge gaps but I don't examine them with high power optical instruments other than my reading glasses. I use the LV flush cut saw, quick sand for dead flat/flush and then wipe the area with Arm R Seal which seems to match the prefinish nicely. Try the process with some scrap, I like the look and it does provide a mechanical connection that is simple and effective.

FWIW-For commissioned work I use Hettich Quadro slides which cost a little less than Blums but are, IMHO, easier to install and work really well. For shop quality I use KVTT 100s which are side mount but only cost $4.00 to $5.50 a pair vs $25 to $30 for quality undermounts.

Regards - Bill

[lowell holmes]

Is drawer side material available? It used to be.

[Bill McNiel]

Is drawer side material available? It used to be.

It is in Seattle.

[Terry Wawro]

Is drawer side material available? It used to be.

I know that my preferred lumber yard carries it. It's also available online. Search for "prefinished drawer sides"

[Victor Robinson]

I use the Festool manufactured Dominos, they fully fill the mortice with no gaps (possibly because I brush glue in the mortice and on the Domino). I have never experienced any serrated edge gaps but I don't examine them with high power optical instruments other than my reading glasses. I use the LV flush cut saw, quick sand for dead flat/flush and then wipe the area with Arm R Seal which seems to match the prefinish nicely. Try the process with some scrap, I like the look and it does provide a mechanical connection that is simple and effective.

FWIW-For commissioned work I use Hettich Quadro slides which cost a little less than Blums but are, IMHO, easier to install and work really well. For shop quality I use KVTT 100s which are side mount but only cost $4.00 to $5.50 a pair vs $25 to $30 for quality undermounts.

Regards - Bill

I'll definitely give this a try in the near future. Once you get going I imagine it's quite a bit faster than routing drawer lock joints. I remember someone detailing the technique on the FOG a few years back when they first started selling the 4mm Dominos and bits (maybe it was you...) and I recall that there was minimal if any gapping due to using the commercial dominos.

I've never used anything but Blum for undermounts and learned their....requirements....pretty well during my vanity project. Their setup provides a lot (maybe even too much) of up/down, side-to-side, and depth adjustability, especially if you use the drawer front adjusters as well. Easy for a dummy like me to get perfect reveals on inset drawers.

[Victor Robinson]

One of the really nice things about soft close slides, people can't slam drawers shut anymore. That little shock in there does a lot for preserving the integrity of a mediocre drawer box.

Doors too. It's way easier on the joinery not having them slam.

You are so right. The havoc that my toddler can wreak on the cabinetry is really minimized.

Blum killed the dovetail. :D

[Jim Becker]

Blum killed the dovetail.
They actually make a pretty nifty metal drawer box system, too. Ikea adopted it and it's also available to normal shlubs like the rest of us. I certainly wouldn't use it for fine furniture, but it's worthy of consideration, especially for "very modern" style kitchens and similar cabinet storage needs. I have the Ikea branded version in our laundry room and they have worked flawlessly for years. Soft close, too. So in addition to whacking dovetails, Blum might also squash wooden drawer in some Cases. :D (pardon the pun)

[Victor Robinson]

They actually make a pretty nifty metal drawer box system, too. Ikea adopted it and it's also available to normal shlubs like the rest of us. I certainly wouldn't use it for fine furniture, but it's worthy of consideration, especially for "very modern" style kitchens and similar cabinet storage needs. I have the Ikea branded version in our laundry room and they have worked flawlessly for years. Soft close, too. So in addition to whacking dovetails, Blum might also squash wooden drawer in some Cases. :D (pardon the pun)

Oh believe me, I know all about those Ikea Blum drawers. Our kitchen is Ikea (innards, fronts are custom mahogany)...around 10 years old and every piece of hardware is working flawlessly. We flipped it pretty cheaply - I wasn't really much of a woodworker at the time. I've been biding my time waiting for the right moment to offer the wife some "finer" custom cabs and new appliances...

I even have leftover Ikea/Blum drawers in my shop in various forms...my router table cabinet has 'em too.

And I agree, they can work quite well for modern designs, even high-end. The kitchen in question, however, will be more of a traditional style.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I only build commercial cabinetry for local "Y's." They can tear up an anvil. In twenty years of doing so, all my drawers have been 1/2" BB sides with 1/4" BB bottoms, with overlay fronts. All have been assembled with KREG pocket screws. Not once have I had a call back to fix a drawer.

[Ole Anderson]

I agree, 5/8" boxes are the sweet spot visually. To me, lock joint construction is just one step down from dovetails. I went with 5/8" soft maple with Leigh blind dovetails when I redid my kitchen. But then it was MY kitchen.

[Andrew Seemann]

The factory-made hardwood dovetailed drawers in the kitchen of my previous house failed after only a few years. Ironically, the rabbeted white glue and nails ones in my mother's 50 year old kitchen have never failed, go figure. The kitchen was in before we moved in. I replaced it after a few years.

I'm not a fan of non-through-cut machine cut dovetails. When they start to loosen, the angles drive the sides out, especially on a overlay drawer front where the front joints take all the shock. I have a dresser from the 50s with the same problem and have seen it on other things as well. I much prefer a drawer joint, sliding dovetails, or nearly anything else.

[Warren Lake]

the factory ones never should have failed. i have oak office drawers i made 35 years ago on a router jig and they are just as strong now as when they were made with lots of use on them.

Ive seen enough flat finished junk then assembled after non of it even close to flush and its hardly done any time would not surprise me to see that stuff fail, its already failed as far as im concerned.

[Julie Moriarty]

For years and years - as a custom cabinet maker - I have "educated" my clients that - with the refinement and smooth operation of mechanical drawer slides - whether the Blum Tandem types or side mount Accurides types (not the 70s 1 wheel on a side rail version) - dovetails constructed drawers serve no structural purpose but are now merely affectations.
You make a great point, Sam. I think the entire industry is moving towards motion technology because that's what people want. The high end kitchen today might have flush drawers and doors with no handles and Movento drawer slides or Aventos lifts. There might not be a single piece of solid wood in the entire room. Homeowners love touching a drawer and watching it open by itself and then close softly by itself.

The other thing that gets people drooling is well engineered storage systems. I installed Rev-A-Shelf wire racks with the bottom for pots and pans and the top for lids. Everyone who has seen loves it. I've put more consideration into motion technology and smart storage in this place than I did in the last place because it's just nicer to have and, based on friends and neighbor comments, I'm not alone.

[Mark Bolton]

For years and years - as a custom cabinet maker - I have "educated" my clients that - with the refinement and smooth operation of mechanical drawer slides - whether the Blum Tandem types or side mount Accurides types (not the 70s 1 wheel on a side rail version) - dovetails constructed drawers serve no structural purpose but are now merely affectations.

Absolutely. The hard part around here is even the big box manufacturers are all supplying machine cut dovetail boxes on even some of their modest lines so customers who are shopping a kitchen around are going to think that their POS home center cabs are "high end" because they have dovetailed drawers. They have pretty much made dovetailed drawers the norm unless you in the extreme budget line and even some of the dirt cheap ply drawer boxes are dovetailed lol.

We opt away from them on budget work but 5/8 hard maple drawer boxes and dovetails are the norm for us.

I wouldnt mind subing out shallow boxes but when you get to pricing wide deep drawers the numbers are far less attractive to me so we just build them all.

[Joe Jensen]

Have you considered having drawer made? I have two companies in the Phoenix area. I can get Baltic Birch dovetailed drawers for about 20% more than I can buy the BB sheets. I have used them for solid Maple dovetailed drawers too. I bought 9 drawers, 6 about 15" wide and 3 about 28" wide in solid maple, dovetailed, and finished with conversion varnish for $550.

[Jon Endres]

My last home had Kraft-Maid cabinets with maple (or birch?) dovetailed drawer boxes. Quite a few of the boxes failed, apparently due to a starved glue joint. A couple of them looked like they were never glued and only held together by the finish that was used.

My current home, which I built for myself and intend to live in forever, has 1/2" baltic birch drawer boxes, held together with pocket screws and glue. The bottoms are all 1/4" (5mm) BB ply as well. I did this because it was quick and easy, the drawers are solid and sturdy, and if I want to make any alterations, I don't have to worry about having to match materials. I also view a kitchen (at least, my kitchen) as just another workshop with different tools. My kitchen gets used HARD. Everything was built to withstand five kids, many guests and friends, three meals a day for decades. The fronts are all cherry and curly maple and look elegant, but it's built to be abused. I paid less than three grand to build every cabinet, including hardware, and if I want to rip it all out and start over, I won't cry about it.

[Mark Bolton]

Thats a great number. It's not uncommon for an average kitchen to have over a grand in slides and hinges alone and another in pre-fin ply.

[Jim Dwight]

Our new Kraft made kitchen has dovetail maple drawers 5/8 thick. I built one kitchen and dovetailed 1/2 beech for the drawers. I built a new island for our previous house and I dovetailed 1/2 Baltic birch plywood for the drawers. I've made several dressers the same way. For deep kitchen drawers I also use the 1/2 bb for the drawers bottoms. I keep a cheap dovetail jig setup on a stand. I have a jig for the bit depth. So setup time is a few minutes. Cutting the dovetails takes little time. I mostly back cut the bb to minimize splintering. Resulting drawers are sturdy and at least I know the difference. I dovetail the backs too. It is quicker than setting up for another joint.