Cause of handplane skip/chatter?

[Billy Trinh]

I'm a novice at using handplane. I was trying out a new lee valley #4 smoother on the face of a piece of maple 2" wide. The plane skips at the beginning of the push stroke and cause ripples at the start of the piece. The shaving are either dusty or form tiny rolls. I backed the blade up as much as I could but the plane still skips. It's most likely I'm the culprit but I'm not sure what need to change. Thanks!

[Frederick Skelly]

Have you sharpened the blade lately? That may be one cause.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm a novice at using handplane. I was trying out a new lee valley #4 smoother on the face of a piece of maple 2" wide. The plane skips at the beginning of the push stroke and cause ripples at the start of the piece. The shaving are either dusty or form tiny rolls. I backed the blade up as much as I could but the plane still skips. It's most likely I'm the culprit but I'm not sure what need to change. Thanks!

This sounds more like skipping than (what most people would call) chatter.

The usual causes are iron too dull (fix by sharpening), shaving too thick (fix by retracting the iron), stroke not steady (fix with practice).

If it only happens at the start of the stroke then try skewing the plane a little bit so that the edge of the blade doesn't hit the edge of the workpiece all at once. Also focus on maintaining a smooth and steady/deliberate stoke without "jerking" - You should ultimately (after practice) be able to start a stroke cleanly without skewing unless you have a really nasty situation like a knot right at the leading edge.

[Billy Trinh]

blade still has factory edge and I haven't used it since bought. Should it be sharpened? planing 3/4" edge works fine but face planing always give me trouble. If I start slow/normal speed, plane often get stuck at start. On the other hand, start fast and the plane skips.

[David Bassett]

blade still has factory edge and I haven't used it since bought. Should it be sharpened? planing 3/4" edge works fine but face planing always give me trouble. If I start slow/normal speed, plane often get stuck at start. On the other hand, start fast and the plane skips.

I'd guess it does need to be sharpened, though the LV blades I've received have been pretty good. I'd suggest backing off the depth of cut. See how it works in the finest cut and adjust from there.

Do you have a way to take & post photos? Do you have a way to measure your shavings? Photos will allow folks to view your setup and measuring the shavings would be a clue to your adjustments.

Another thought, have you checked the grain? Tried the other direction on the face? Hard to guess not knowing exactly what you're doing... Sorry.

[Patrick Chase]

blade still has factory edge and I haven't used it since bought. Should it be sharpened? planing 3/4" edge works fine but face planing always give me trouble. If I start slow/normal speed, plane often get stuck at start. On the other hand, start fast and the plane skips.

LV tools ship about as sharp as any our of the box (with the possible exception of the Tsunesubaru chamfer plane I recently acquired), but not very sharp at all by the standards of real-world planing. You should definitely hone the secondary bevel at a minimum.

Skewing (rotating the plane a bit relative to its direction of travel) as I suggested in a previous post would probably help a bit, but there's no substitute for a sharp iron.

[Tom Trees]

<p>
If you cant shave your arm hair with one effortless stroke, its not sharp. Go buy a honing guide, I have gotten great use from my knock-off Eclipse style guide, cost about a fiver. Good luck</p>

[Stewie Simpson]

blade still has factory edge and I haven't used it since bought. Should it be sharpened? planing 3/4" edge works fine but face planing always give me trouble. If I start slow/normal speed, plane often get stuck at start. On the other hand, start fast and the plane skips.

Billy, how close have you set the front edge of the cap iron to the cutting edge.

[Patrick Chase]

Billy, how close have you set the front edge of the cap iron to the cutting edge.

Stewie brings up a good (implied) point here. You should start with the simplest setup possible for debugging, and that means not getting fancy with things like the cap iron. I'd set it ~1/16" or so from the edge until you get the basic cutting action straightened out.

[Lee Schierer]

Take an old candle and make wiggley lines on the sole of the plane. It reduces the friction, won't harm the wood and will make the cuts smoother.

The other thing to look at is the grain direction in the problem area. Try a pass in the opposite direction on that part of the board. You want the grain ends to look like this--->/////// not like this ---->\\\\\\ where the arrow is the direction of the cut.

[Archie England]

As a newcomer to using hand planes, I would bet you're somewhat overwhelmed by all the suggestions. Take heart, it just takes time to learn each plane that you acquire. By purchasing a LV or LN plane, you've by-passed the learning curve required for rehabbing vintage planes. That likewise means that you've by-passed gaining the experience for a number of the above suggestions. Our suggestions focus on (1) the blade (sharpness, protrusion), (2), the blade, chipbreaker, and cap iron (how these are positioned), (3) the frog (primarily its placement), and finally (4) the sole of the plane. Since you've bought a LV, there's little chance the sole is not flat. Typically, new makers send out their planes with blades that are very sharp and ready to go; so, that seems an unlikely factor. However, many of us like to go the extra mile of sharpening to get blades honed and polished well beyond factory standards--hence, the above directions to sharpen further or set a secondary bevel. The best "read" (without pictures) is that you've got too much blade protruding through the slot. This can create some bite issues. Be sure to sight down the sole and try to have so little of the blade protruding that it's finely set. This is achieved by turning the set screw behind the frog. Sometimes, chatter is caused by having the frog slightly further back from the mouth (slot) so that the blade is not resting securely against the frog's face. Likewise, sometimes the chip breaker is set back from the edge of the blade too much. For me, that's more than 1/16th though I strive for even closer edge of the blade positioning. Otherwise, blades start chattering and clogging up the mouth when there's a larger gap between the chip breaker and blade. The cap iron's tightness can also be an issue, especially if too loose or too tight. Too loose and the blade can move (= chatter); too tight, and the sole (of some of my vintage planes) can distort somewhat, causing that to introduce cutting distortions. Stanley Handyman planes were some of my earliest lessons in such troubleshooting. BTW, I no longer have or use them.

Have fun! And don't be afraid to take your plane apart and troubleshoot. I hope that I've clearly and accurately pointed out the various areas of concern for you to trouble shoot.

[steven c newman]

Cut is too deep, frog too far forward, pressing down on the rear handle instead of the front knob AT the start of the cut....

[Al Launier]

It sounds like you are planing against the grain. Try going with the grain to compare results.

[Pat Barry]

It sounds like you are planing against the grain. Try going with the grain to compare results.
Yes, I agree, dont assume your tools are bad

[glenn bradley]

Trying to describe hand plane technique can be a bit like trying to describe shaving your face. A basically simple task that brings into play so many granular elements that codifying the process gets overwhelming. Practice is the basic fix for many problems with hand tools. The trick is to get semi-functional so that you can practice with gusto and not stumble over things like skipping, stalling and so forth. Even if your first long steady strokes are not true, they will start to build the motions that will become second nature.

Lee Valley irons do arrive pretty decent out of the box but, I would go to work with them on anything other than practice pieces. The whole discussion of what is "sharp" generally starts to breakdown into personal battles over what each person has found to be "best" so let's not go there too much. Suffice to say that your iron should probably be touched up. Your test board is already irregular so I would flip it and start again once your iron is sharp. Grain direction and the ability to read it will factor into almost anything you do with solid woods.

374545

I kept a printout of something like this tacked to the wall for quite awhile back in the day.

[Robert Hazelwood]

This is a common problem when learning to plane, especially when using short planes like a #4, which don't have much sole ahead of the blade to register.

Definitely sharpen it, that's the biggest thing. The next thing is to set an appropriate shaving thickness...you can get away with a thicker shaving while planing edges, but you have to dial it back sometimes for faces. But if you aren't very sharp, then it will be difficult to engage in the cut because a dull edge likes to skip over the wood when set for a light shaving. So it comes back to sharpness.

With a freshly sharpened plane set for a light cut you should find this pretty easy, but as the plane dulls some in use you may start having trouble again. You can keep working with a few tricks-

Wax the sole- reduces friction and makes the plane easier to control.

Skew the plane a bit as you start the cut - reduces the sudden shock of the entire blade engaging at once, makes it easier to control.

Focus pressure on the front knob. As I start the cut basically all of the downward and forward pressure is coming from my left hand on the knob, and I am essentially pulling the plane into the cut by the knob.

[David Eisenhauer]

FYI Billy: Old saying, "sharp fixes everything". While not completely true, many of us re sharpen a tool as the first step in trouble shooting a problem. Me? I would sharpen the iron, back the iron off so that it is not cutting at all, then slowly advance it so that it starts cutting. I also wax the sole, skew the plane some when having trouble starting and look for some indication that I may be planning against the grain. Probably just try planning the other direction fairly early in the situation.

[Billy Trinh]

Thanks all. I'll sharpen the blade and try again with your suggestions. Waxing the sole and skewing the plane helped but I couldn't get the plane to go straight to the end of the board (even when going with the grain). I saw hairline mark left behind by the plane edge where it's not cutting full board--Maybe I'm trying to cut too deep? So 1/16" for chipbreaker to blade edge (had mine set for about 2 hairline), what's proper spacing between the blade edge to the front sole?

[Tom Trees]

<p>
Hello Billy The frog should be all the way back, open as possible, flush with the casting, as nowadays it is widely accepted that setting the cap iron tight is the ultimate method of stopping tearout, as Warren Mickley has been saying for donkeys years....Look up David W on youtube for proof of the infulence of the cap iron, he has gone to much trouble to show this technique in video format and the afformentioned wood central document, anyone who disagrees has been in a cave. You cant push the plane if the cap is set tight and the mouth is closed up. And YES your blade is most definatly dull, as youve said you have to skew the plane for it to cut. Thats when you know youve been slugging it out for way too long. Trying this plane out again with a sharp iron will be very pleasing, no need to set the cap tight until the last few passes. I actually have a slight camber on my jack plane 5 1/2, and a lesser camber, bearly noticable for the cap iron effect on the other 5 1/2 Have fun Happy Christmas Tomas</p>

[David Eisenhauer]

Billy, if I understand this - "I saw a hairline mark left behind by the plane edge...........", do you mean the outer edge of the plane iron left a faint track in the wood where the wood you are working on is wider than the plane iron? If so, this is called "railroad tracks" by some (can be/usually both sides leave the track) and can be mitigated by slightly "rounding off" the corners of the plane iron when you sharpen the plane iron. It is a common occurrence on a finishing plane that needs the plane iron corners relieved. Does the area between the plane iron and the cap iron become jammed up with shavings? If so, the plane quits cutting when there is no place for the shaving to go and the plane will just skate over the wood. Did you try and back the iron off to the point where it stops cutting and then bring it back out for a very shallow cut? Does the end of the board (where you cannot plane through) include any knots? Again, a sharp iron and a light cut should do it. I cannot go back to your original post to see if you already provided this info, so sorry if you did, but do you have any experience with sharpening chisels and/or plane irons? Lots of times new woodworkers do not know what "sharp" really is until someone shows them and this may still be the problem. "Dusty" plane shavings are scrapped shavings rather than cut plane shavings.

[Billy Trinh]

Thanks for the tips. I can make shaving now! Sharpened the blade until it shaved some hair (original didn't), waxed sole, skew angle, paper thin setting and I can take full width shaving on soft and hard wood (a bit harder). Checked the plane manual and it can adjust .003 per quarter turn of the knob--very nice. I poked around with restoring old plane & sharpening few years back but can never adjust it right. I can take a few swipes if I feel the itch to make shaving now :). Marry Christmas everyone. 374584

[David Eisenhauer]

Outstanding Billy and away you go. Merry Christmas to you as well.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks all. I'll sharpen the blade and try again with your suggestions. Waxing the sole and skewing the plane helped but I couldn't get the plane to go straight to the end of the board (even when going with the grain). I saw hairline mark left behind by the plane edge where it's not cutting full board--Maybe I'm trying to cut too deep? So 1/16" for chipbreaker to blade edge (had mine set for about 2 hairline), what's proper spacing between the blade edge to the front sole?

1/16" for the cap iron for now, while you're debugging basic cutting mechanics issues.

At some point as you develop you'll get your basic mechanics all sorted out and you'll find that tearout has become a significant issue. That (and not before) is when you will want to start playing with ultra-tight cap iron sets. You'll also want to research cap iron leading edge profiles when you do that, as that's at least as important as the setback. The cap iron in your LV "classic" #4 actually provides a very good starting point (better out of the box than the "solid-style" cap irons in the newer LV custom planes and most other new planes on the market) but it can still benefit from some tweaks.

"Two hairlines" actually isn't far off the mark for difficult wood. Here's one of mine that's right about at that level: https://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?256590-Cap-iron-set.

[glenn bradley]

Well done Billy. Merry Christmas.