Exposed Romex on ceiling

[Robert Hartmann]

<p>
I am installing a Fahrenheat FUH54 heater in my detached garage. The walls and ceiling are finished in OSB. It will be mounted on the ceiling and hardwired to a junction box about 2 ft away. Can I run Romex directly to the box from the heater (2 ft run) stapled to the ceiling? I would rather not install a plug unless I have to. If I this is not possible, do I have to run it through conduit? I have seen mixed answers on whether I can run Romex through conduit...can I? thanks, Rob</p>

[Ole Anderson]

I would just buy a few feet of armored cable with the requisite end terminations and be done with it.

[Jamie Buxton]

So you're proposing to have romex just flying through the air to connect to the ceiling-hung space heater? Romex flying through the air is not accepted by my local building code. Use Ole's approach.

[Bob Bouis]

IIRC garages a gray area when it comes to exposed romex; the question is whether it's vulnerable to physical damage. Use common sense on that one.

Me, I'd almost always put it in a conduit to be safe.

In the response to the comment above mine, from the extension box to the heater you could use SOOW type cords [the heater probably comes with one, just cut the plug off]. IIRC 10/3 is usually about $2 a foot.

[Mike Cutler]

Each area has it's own implementation of codes and standards, so it is impossible for anyone, other than a licensed electrician from your area, to answer the question absolutely.

Ole's answer is closest to "most correct". If you want to avoid the code arguments, put in the receptacle and run SO cord too it.
The code stops at the receptacle. After that it's up to you, your insurance company, and the UL.

Can romex, non UFB, be installed in conduit? The broad answer is generally not, but the "local" answer may allow it based on interpretation of the code and it's applicability to other local bldg codes. It would depend on the definition/answer of why it was being run in conduit.

[Bill Carey]

I just installed the same heater in my work shop. (great heater btw. The cheap one I bought at a big box store burst into flames when I turned it on the first time - pretty exciting.) I have the romex stapled to the drywall ceiling, and I cut a piece of schedule 40 plastic pipe in half and covered it. Not code but it's protected from bumps etc.

[Wayne Jolly]

When I did some wiring in my garage, I was told by an electrician that any wiring below 8 feet had to be "protected" somehow. Conduit, that cheap plastic crap that sticks to the wall, anything to keep it from being exposed really. Above 8 feet it just had to be secured.

Wayne

[roger wiegand]

Drywall doesn't hold staples, that would be my only concern about anchoring it to the ceiling. Most romex is run attached either to joists or across their bottoms and left exposed in unfinished basements (even in 6-1/2 ft tall New England basements), a shop shouldn't be any different. That said my aesthetic sense would have me put it above the drywall, attached appropriately to the joists. Patching drywall is easy.

[Brian W Evans]

For such a short run you could probably get some shielded cable pretty cheap. My HD has a rack of short pieces of wire and I frequently see bits of shielded stuff on there. Might be worth a look. Do it right the first time and you won't have to ever think about it again.

[Robert Hartmann]

Thanks all. I was trying to take the easy path. I wired everything else in the garage to code, so I should take the extra few minutes to do this properly. I just wasn&#39;t sure if Romex could be exposed on a ceiling. I&#39;ve learned way more about electric than I expected when I bought this house last Jul, but all good. Sadly the previous owner was an electrician and I&#39;ve had to fix numerous issues. Way too much half-assery.

[John Lanciani]

Can romex, non UFB, be installed in conduit? The broad answer is generally not, but the "local" answer may allow it based on interpretation of the code and it's applicability to other local bldg codes. It would depend on the definition/answer of why it was being run in conduit.

This is just plain wrong. Article 334.15(B) of the 2017 National Electrical Code reads as follows; "Protection from Physical Damage. [NM and NMS] Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by ridgid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, schedule 80 pvc conduit, or other approved means."

You certainly can, and in some circumstances must, put NM cable (romex) in conduit.

[Mike Cutler]

This is just plain wrong. Article 334.15(B) of the 2017 National Electrical Code reads as follows; "Protection from Physical Damage. [NM and NMS] Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by ridgid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, schedule 80 pvc conduit, or other approved means."

You certainly can, and in some circumstances must, put NM cable (romex) in conduit.


John
No arguments from me on this one. It's the "where necessary" part of the sentence, that the local inspector may have a different opinion. My answer was primarily addressing long runs of NM in conduit, just for the sake of doing it. If you ever visit Mike Holt's forum, there are many threads on article 334.15B and how to apply it.
THHN and THWN are much easier to pull through conduit than NM, if you had a long pull, and the way the circular diameter is interpreted, and the resulting conduit fill, using NM could make it difficult to achieve without a bigger sized conduit. Other than passing through a physical barrier, I don't know why someone would want to pull NM through conduit. The OP is only going 2', so that would be easy enough.
The code can be anything but black and white sometimes.;)


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[Don Jarvie]

I used armored cable for mine. The heater needs to be hard wired so you can’t use a plug.

[Bill Dufour]

I remember being taught that the wire has to be neatly run, tight to the ceiling so no one will use it like a clothes line.
Bill

[Arthur Fleming]

A related, but separate issue, is there a disconnecting means within sight? Sometimes this is the reason for a cord and cap wiring solution.

[Jim Becker]

Since my rafters are exposed, I ran the 10 gage wire through them out to the heater location in my shop to a j-box at ceiling level. The drop to the heater is rubber 10 gage. (For those wondering, these units do not come with a cord/plug and are direct wire heaters) In the OP's case, I'd use the armored cable as someone suggested or run conduit with proper conductors if it needed to be surface mounted, even at ceiling level. While there is often some leeway in garage type situations, since it's entirely possible to whack the cable with a board, I'd rather be safe about it.

One thing I recently did was replace the OEM thermostat and control with an external "real" thermostat and heater control. This was easy to do and is proving to be a lot more consistent. I had to replace it anyway because it "fried"...which is not an uncommon problem with the unit.

[Curt Harms]

John

The code can be anything but black and white sometimes.;)


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It sounds like code is whatever the dude/dudette isssuing the green sticker says it is.

[Mike Cutler]

It sounds like code is whatever the dude/dudette isssuing the green sticker says it is.

Yep! A lot of truth to that statement.
They do not have an easy job trying to apply the differing codes. Always check with the local inspector first. It can save a lot of aggravation in the end.

[Jim Becker]

It sounds like code is whatever the dude/dudette isssuing the green sticker says it is.
True-dat. You cannot believe what we went through during our addition project in 2008 when the "inspector" was still a township employee. Now, they all use an inspection service and things are a little more consistent, but each inspector still may have his/her own point of view on certain things that are not cut and dry.

[Robert Hartmann]

One thing I recently did was replace the OEM thermostat and control with an external "real" thermostat and heater control. This was easy to do and is proving to be a lot more consistent. I had to replace it anyway because it "fried"...which is not an uncommon problem with the unit.

I considered that, but unfortunately this will not be my final garage/workshop. This will be my last assignment in the Air Force before I retire. My wife already said we are not staying here. Too bad, I have an over sized detached 3-car garage that is fabulous. Anyway, I didn't want to put too much effort and money into it only to leave in 3 years, which is why I was looking for the easy solution to get the heater wired.

[Jim Becker]

I considered that, but unfortunately this will not be my final garage/workshop. This will be my last assignment in the Air Force before I retire. My wife already said we are not staying here. Too bad, I have an over sized detached 3-car garage that is fabulous. Anyway, I didn't want to put too much effort and money into it only to leave in 3 years, which is why I was looking for the easy solution to get the heater wired.
The external thermostat certainly isn't needed. That said, if for some reason the internal one fries...which sometimes happens with these heaters...replace it with an adapter and inexpensive thermostat like I did. It's not "permanent" and you can take it with you very easily. You might leave the wire behind, but that's about nine bucks. :)

[Art Mann]

I like Ole's approach too but stapling the wire to the ceiling as the OP described is by no means an unsafe or prohibited practice in all areas. Local codes or individual inspectors determine that.


So you're proposing to have romex just flying through the air to connect to the ceiling-hung space heater? Romex flying through the air is not accepted by my local building code. Use Ole's approach.

[Jim Becker]

Getting power to the vicinity of the heating unit is the easy part and whether it's romex or other wire fastened to the ceiling is more or less an issue of code or interpretation of code. However, I'm a strong proponent of doing a more formal drop/connection to the heater, itself, and that includes terminating the feed in a J-box and then transitioning to a flexible and protective cable/cord from that box to the unit. I personally used rubber 10 gage for this (the same stuff I use for machinery cords), but armored would be another option. But that's me...

[Brian W Evans]

Getting power to the vicinity of the heating unit is the easy part and whether it's romex or other wire fastened to the ceiling is more or less an issue of code or interpretation of code. However, I'm a strong proponent of doing a more formal drop/connection to the heater, itself, and that includes terminating the feed in a J-box and then transitioning to a flexible and protective cable/cord from that box to the unit. I personally used rubber 10 gage for this (the same stuff I use for machinery cords), but armored would be another option. But that's me...

This had me worried for a second - when installing my heater I transitioned from EMT (metal conduit) directly to FMC (armored cable) using a special fitting. I just looked it up, though, and it seems to be OK (2005 NEC 300.15(F)):

374785

[Julie Moriarty]

This had me worried for a second - when installing my heater I transitioned from EMT (metal conduit) directly to FMC (armored cable) using a special fitting. I just looked it up, though, and it seems to be OK (2005 NEC 300.15(F)):
Greenfield (flexible conduit without wires) is typically used in dry locations when connecting a conduit feed to a motor. We (Chicago area electricians) call the fitting that goes between conduit and Greenfield a "changeover" fitting. Every municipality I ever worked in allowed it, without a box or unilet in between. But the length of the Greenfield is typically limited to 6'. Occasionally it's required to pull in a ground wire.

As to installing romex in conduit, I've never heard of any municipality that allows it. When you change from romex to conduit, a junction box is required. Here's a LINK (http://julimorcreations.com/Projects/ConduitBending.htm) to the conduit tutorial that used to be a sticky here, in the event anyone wants to install conduit in their workshop.

[Jerome Stanek]

Boy Julie I could tell you stories about the Chicago electricians when I was installing CVS stores. the best one was someone stole their temporary light bulbs that I bought and took back when I was getting ready to leave. Also they got hit hard by Osha for their extension cords that didn't have a gfi on it.

[Jim Becker]

This had me worried for a second - when installing my heater I transitioned from EMT (metal conduit) directly to FMC (armored cable) using a special fitting. I just looked it up, though, and it seems to be OK (2005 NEC 300.15(F)):

374785
Makes sense since you're just going from rigid conduit to flexible conduit and pulling full length conductors end-to-end. That's a nice clean way to transition from "fixed" to "flexible" in support of something like a ceiling or wall mounted heater or even a hard-wired machine of some kind.

[Bill Dufour]

I have seen wires run at right angles to rafters or joists. But they installed a 1x4 under or over the wires so you could not use them as a clothes line. Similar to a rat run. I think modern seismic code requires blocking, at least for floor joists, not sure if a rat run is required or not.
Bill

[Dan Friedrichs]

As to installing romex in conduit, I've never heard of any municipality that allows it. When you change from romex to conduit, a junction box is required.

It's often allowed, but the conductors need to be derated (fill factor in the conduit decreases), since the additional insulation limits heat transfer from the conductors.

[Julie Moriarty]

It's often allowed, but the conductors need to be derated (fill factor in the conduit decreases), since the additional insulation limits heat transfer from the conductors.

Dan, that's why I have said time and again, when doing electrical work, consult your local inspector rather than asking questions here. If you do, you will always get the right answer.

[Rollie Meyers]

This is just plain wrong. Article 334.15(B) of the 2017 National Electrical Code reads as follows; "Protection from Physical Damage. [NM and NMS] Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by ridgid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, schedule 80 pvc conduit, or other approved means."

You certainly can, and in some circumstances must, put NM cable (romex) in conduit.

The prohibition of NM cable "Romex®" in conduit is a major article in the Urban Legend Code, close to the no splices in electrical panels. :D

That being said, I don't like NM cable in conduit, but there are times it is necessary.

[Jim Becker]

Rollie, I agree...it's quite common in garages, for example, where the drop the box is surface mounted and the romex disappears into a piece of conduit at ceiling level to get down to the box. My shop building had several of these in it when we acquired the property and I've used the same technique since to add machine outlets. In fact, I'm soon to do it again for the CNC I'm acquiring as I need a four-wire, 30 amp circuit for that application and all my current machine circuits are three-wire.

[Rod Sheridan]

I personally used rubber 10 gage for this (the same stuff I use for machinery cords), but armored would be another option. But that's me...

Hi Jim, I'm curious as to whether that's legal where you live?

Where I live flexible cord is only allowed for portable devices or where motion is required, it cannot be used as a substitute for permanent wiring.........Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Rod, the heater is "technically" movable in its bracket to re-aim it, etc., so the connection to the J-Box needs to be flexible. I chose rubber coated for that application and I had some left over from a 30-amp machine cord. I guess one could use armored cable (not fun to work with) or a flexible conduit with THHN to accomplish that, too. Honestly, I didn't check on this further...

[Julie Moriarty]

Where I live flexible cord is only allowed for portable devices or where motion is required, it cannot be used as a substitute for permanent wiring.........Regards, Rod.
If you're talking about "cord" as in extension-type cord, no, that use is typically not allowed for permanent electrical connections. I have never seen it allowed anywhere.

Greenfield or Sealtite can be used when connecting to motors or other loads to reduce vibration. In the areas I worked, when hooking up a motor, flexible conduit was required. But there are limitations on length and there may be additional grounding required. For instance if you're using Sealtite to connect a motor and the motor is rated over 20A, a ground wire is required. Usually, the limit on length for any flexible conduit is 6 feet. (All this based on my personal experience working as an electrician in the Chicago area.)